Gen 3 NEW Mechanic: Sleep Talk doesn't burn Sleep Turns

McMeghan

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#1
This thread's purpose is to shed some light on a newly implemented (on PS!) mechanic that has been discovered recently.

First thought to be a glitch, it turned out to be a mechanic change affecting the way Sleep Talk interacts with the Sleep Counter. Here is the post in the Bug Reports thread, and here is the answer to that report by one of our Old Gen Researcher: Marty.

Here is the commit summary Marty left on PS! GitHub:
Gen III: Fix sleep count interaction with Sleep Talk/Snore

- Basically, a counter separate from the sleep counter starts at 0, and attempting to use Sleep Talk or Snore while asleep increments it by 1.
- If the Pokemon attempts to use any other move while asleep, this counter is reset to 0.
- If the Pokemon switches out while asleep, the current value of the counter is added to the sleep counter.
What does that mean in practice?

To put it into other words: if you only use Sleep Talk (or Snore) while you're asleep and switch out before waking up, the turns you spent using Sleep Talk/Snore won't be added to the sleep counter. To successfully burn all these sleep turns, you have to spend one turn attacking (read: not using Sleep Talk) before switching out.

This affects both sleep induced by your opponent (Hypnosis, Spore, etc) and self-induced Sleep (Rest). Keep in mind all of this is relevant only if you switch out before waking up.
---

Here are some examples to better grasp the situation if you're still sorta confused:
  • Your Zapdos just used Rest on turn 3. On turn 4, you use Sleep Talk. On turn 5, you use Sleep Talk. You switch out as your Zapdos is still asleep. When Zapdos will be back on the field, it will still sleep 2 turns.
  • Your Zapdos just used Rest on turn 3. On turn 4, you don't use Sleep Talk. On turn 5, you use Sleep Talk. You Switch out as your Zapdos is still asleep. When Zapdos will be back on the field, it will have 1 turn left to sleep.
  • Now if you would to use Sleep Talk on Turn 4, and don't use Sleep Talk on turn 5, you'd reset the "new" counter and thus will wake up next time your Pokemon is on the field (bullet point 2 in the GitHub log).
  • You switch a Choice Band Heracross on a Gengar using Hypnosis. On the next turn, you use Sleep Talk and then switch out. In this scenario, you have burned 0 turn of sleep, which means it is guaranteed your Heracross won't wake up as you use Sleep Talk in the future.

How does that affect ADV concretly?

  • Pokemons relying on Restalk (Zapdos, Regice, Suicune, Snorlax, etc) will have a harder time waking up if you decide to use Sleep Talk and then get forced out.
  • Pokemons using Sleep Talk can be played in such a way that it is guaranteed that you will never wake up (make for better Sleep Absorbers and no wake up/Sleep Talk turn). Useful for Heracross or some Magneton in particular.

Three replays showcasting the new mechanics:
  • Replay 1: In this replay, I keep using Sleep Talk on first Sleep Turn and then switch out. That way, my sleep counter stays at 0 and I never wake up despite using Sleep Talk 7 times (the maximum amount of turns for sleep in ADV is 4).
  • Replay 2: In this one, I show how Sleep Talk doesn't burn sleep turns. Zapdos still sleeps on turn 6 despite using Sleep Talk twice on turn 2 and 3. I used Rest on turn 1 and woke up on turn 11, during that range, I successfully burned by sleep turns on turn 6 and 10.
  • Replay 3: In this one, I successfully burn my two turns of sleep by attacking before switching out, despite using Sleep Talk earlier.

All these new discovered mechanics in Old Generations are pretty exciting! Marty, please let us know in the futur if you guys discover something related to ADV by posting here or in an another RoA thread :)
 
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#3
Oh my god pls don't let this be real
Pretty sure anything resttalk takes a huge hit from this.
Also, if you sleep -> sleep talk -> attack -> switch out, it'll still only burn one turn according to mechanics, right?
 

Bughouse

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#4
Just want to be 100% clear. Sleep Talk in no way resets the sleep counter, right? That is to say, it won't matter if you attack turn 1 of sleep, sleep talk turn 2, and switch out before waking up on turn 3 as opposed to sleep talking first and attacking second. In both cases, you'll have just burned only 1 turn of sleep.
 

Tomahawk

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#5
Just want to be 100% clear. Sleep Talk in no way resets the sleep counter, right? That is to say, it won't matter if you attack turn 1 of sleep, sleep talk turn 2, and switch out before waking up on turn 3 as opposed to sleep talking first and attacking second. In both cases, you'll have just burned only 1 turn of sleep.
I think it does matter looking at the github? I think Sleep Talk does burn turns if you attack afterwards before switching. So your second scenario would burn two turns.
 

McMeghan

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#8
Oh my god pls don't let this be real
Pretty sure anything resttalk takes a huge hit from this.
Also, if you sleep -> sleep talk -> attack -> switch out, it'll still only burn one turn according to mechanics, right?
No, you will have successfully burn your two sleep turns because you attacked before switching out, which resets the "new" counter started when you use Sleep Talk (see bullet point 2 in GitHub log).
Just want to be 100% clear. Sleep Talk in no way resets the sleep counter, right? That is to say, it won't matter if you attack turn 1 of sleep, sleep talk turn 2, and switch out before waking up on turn 3 as opposed to sleep talking first and attacking second. In both cases, you'll have just burned only 1 turn of sleep.
Cf. answer to Kingler.

To make things clearer on that matter, I edited the OP:
if you only use Sleep Talk (or Snore) while you're asleep and switch out before waking up, the turns you spent using Sleep Talk/Snore won't be added to the sleep counter.
becomes
if you only use Sleep Talk (or Snore) while you're asleep and switch out before waking up, the turns you spent using Sleep Talk/Snore won't be added to the sleep counter. To successfully burn all these sleep turns, you have to spend one turn attacking (read: not using Sleep Talk) before switching out.
I have also added this scenario to the examples.
Now if you would to use Sleep Talk on Turn 4, and don't use Sleep Talk on turn 5, you'd reset the "new" counter and thus will wake up next time your Pokemon is on the field (bullet point 2 in the GitHub log).
Finally, I have added a replay showcasting this scenario.
 
#14
There is a positive to this - perhaps people will use Rest and think of more "innovative" (love it) ways of filling up a moveslot instead of Sleep Talk, now that it has lost some of its utility. I had done this years ago with great success - I do not need to specifically promote what I used, but there is history of my posts in the forums.
(Obviously this pertains to self-induced sleep and the use of Rest with mons like Zapdos, Skarmory, Swampert, and Suicune.)

It is sort of "awful" (eh) that so many have come to rely on the proactive use of Sleep Talk in the first place. But I guess it is still a necessary evil sometimes WITHOUT Rest, like with CB Heracross for example. It is a way to combat sleepers that use Spore, Hypnosis, Lovely Kiss, whatever. In this sense you are using it to "try" and turn the tide on your opponent and get back momentum, however. It is more of a reactive measure, though, and therefore the sleeper should still have an advantage. (But that is just how it is if a sleep inducing move hits. Most likely an advantage for them and a disadvantage for you.)

Sleep Talk + phazing (best if it is not self-induced sleep) with something fast to change the priority of phazing is a fairly legitimate niche still. But this has always been one of the rarest purposes of Sleep Talk and has seen little use in ADV.

Sleep Talk as a move is still a "luck" (wow I said it) thing overall in my eyes and you SHOULD NEVER DEPEND on it. It is odds, and 1 out of 3 would not be very good odds for you if there is only that one move that would help you if you decide to stay in. "Oh but it's the threat of Sleep Talk that makes my opponent think twice," you might say. Trust me, there are so many other threats that a high-level battler needs to worry about that are more real and probable that if you want to use Sleep Talk, go with it, but it verges on desperation and may reflect goodly or badly on you depending on how the Sleep Talk "roll" goes.

Now just get rid of critical hits too while we are at it, LOL.

Look -If you are/were used to excessively using Sleep Talk, you could probably blame as many wins as losses on the outcomes of what Sleep Talk selects. And then what does that actually say about your prowess as a battler? If you do not think that is true and think you still would have won or lost either way, why not give it a shot and change the moveslot to something else instead of Sleep Talk then? That's why I believe this could be a step to a better "meta" (call it that) with actually more skill showing through.

I will never know - I do not play anymore. But at least you have another view on this now. Happy team building and trying to find battles!
Seriously - ADV OU will always be special to me.
 
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Typhlito

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#15
Ok so I am a bit confused on how this works. I had a battle to try out this mechanic with cowboydan but after using rest, sleep talk and switching to keep it going, it ended up taking 7 turns to wake up without switching at all. So is this also a part of this mechanic or is it just a glitch?

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen3ou-251014084

This is awful for the meta, more than anyone seems to understand right now. It deeply saddens me to see the most beautiful, perfect format torn apart for the sake of 'cart mechanics'.

something something molemen
I think there is something to be said that if its worth changing a meta that has been doing fine for years for the sake of adding an obsure mechanic to make it a bit more accurate. I mean we will all get used to it and play around it eventually but this is a huge game changer and not for the better.

This mechanic would probably be a much better fit in gsc but ah well...
 
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#16
that seems like a glitch

to me, the mechanic seems like it'd has changed from "you wake up on the third turn post-rest" to "you wake up on the third turn post-rest, not counting the turns you've used sleep talk" - the sleep counter should increase by 1 for each usage of sleep talk, not by 2
 
#17
Ok so just to be clear, if it were working correctly, when he sleep talks turn 48, then burns the sleep turn 49, that should cancel out the sleep talk and he should wake up immediately when he comes back in on turn 52 right?
 

Marty

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#18
Whoops! I forgot to reset the "skippedTime" counter after it gets added back to the current sleep counter. The way I had tested it before was coincidentally the same three ways that are outlined in the OP, so I never ran into this potential infinite sleep bug. Good catch Typhlito, thanks, it'll be fixed next update!
Ok so just to be clear, if it were working correctly, when he sleep talks turn 48, then burns the sleep turn 49, that should cancel out the sleep talk and he should wake up immediately when he comes back in on turn 52 right?
Yeah, that's the intended mechanic, sorry about the mix-up.
 
#19
am i missing a turn of sleep somewhere, because i think suicune would wake up at turn 53, not 52? at turn 49 and 52 he is asleep while not using sleep talk, so turn 53 seems like the wakeup turn?
 

Marty

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#20
am i missing a turn of sleep somewhere, because i think suicune would wake up at turn 53, not 52? at turn 49 and 52 he is asleep while not using sleep talk, so turn 53 seems like the wakeup turn?
It's not so much about how many turns were spent not using Sleep Talk/Snore, but how many turns you did spend using them immediately before switching out. By not using Sleep Talk/Snore, and then switching out, your "skippedTime" counter is 0 no matter how many turns you were asleep using Sleep Talk/Snore before that, and nothing will be added back to your sleep counter.

Here are some of the tests I did in-game for reference (each -> is a turn passing):
1. Rest -> Recover -> Sleep Talk -> switch out and back in -> Recover -> (wakes up)
2. Rest -> Sleep Talk -> Recover -> switch out and back in -> (wakes up)
3. Rest -> Sleep Talk -> Sleep Talk -> switch out and back in -> Sleep Talk -> Sleep Talk -> switch out and back in -> Sleep Talk -> Recover -> switch out and back in -> (wakes up)
4. Rest -> Recover -> Recover -> switch out and back in -> (wakes up)
5. Rest -> Sleep Talk -> switch out and back in -> Recover -> Recover -> (wakes up)
It's also worth noting that when I said "attempts to use" in the commit summary, that means even if your Sleep Talk/Snore is interrupted by hitting yourself in confusion, being infatuated, getting taunted that turn, etc, it still counts as you having used Sleep Talk/Snore since you already bypassed the sleep check to get to the rest of the checks.
 
#21
It's not so much about how many turns were spent not using Sleep Talk/Snore, but how many turns you did spend using them immediately before switching out. By not using Sleep Talk/Snore, and then switching out, your "skippedTime" counter is 0 no matter how many turns you were asleep using Sleep Talk/Snore before that, and nothing will be added back to your sleep counter.
What if I am put to sleep by Hypnosis, use Sleep Talk, recover, and use Sleep Talk again (all while remaining asleep) before switching out? Would that be equivalent to scenario 1 in your list?
 

Marty

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#22
What if I am put to sleep by Hypnosis, use Sleep Talk, recover, and use Sleep Talk again (all while remaining asleep) before switching out? Would that be equivalent to scenario 1 in your list?
Correct, what happens there is the first use of Sleep Talk makes "skippedTime" 1, using Recover resets it to 0, then using Sleep Talk again makes it 1. Since Hypnosis was used and you slept 3 turns already without waking up, the original sleep count was 4 or 5, which means it is now 1 or 2. At this point, switching out adds "skippedTime" (which is 1) back to your current sleep count, making it 2 or 3. So next time you switch in you'll still be asleep at least one turn, and at most two turns before waking up on the second or third turn. Unless of course you use Sleep Talk one or two times right before switching out again.

For clarity I should probably also mention that the sleep counter counts down from X, where X is 3 when Rest is used, and 2-5 when put to sleep by Hypnosis or something else. When the counter gets to 0 (or maybe -1 with Early Bird), you wake up that turn, which translates to 2 turns of "fast asleep" messages for Rest, and 1-4 turns for everything else. The "skippedTime" counter counts up, which is why adding it back to the current sleep count works.
 

tehy

Banned deucer.
#23
So just to clarify:

When you use Sleep Talk (or Snore), it won't count for anything if you switch out

If you use a normal move, it will count for 1 turn if you switch out.

If you use a normal move, any prior uses of Sleep Talk (or Snore) count for 1 turn. But not any future usages.

Does this basically cover everything?
 
#24
Do injured Pokemon get cured when entering a wifi battle in gen 3? At least they don't in Gens 1/2. Imagine bringing a spiker and a sleeping Crobat/Aero with Sleep Talk and Roar/WW. 16 turns of excruciating pain.

Edit: Whoops, Jirachee beat me to it.
 
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Typhlito

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#25
Lol that actually reminded me when I tried bringing an endeavor swellow with 1hp into a WiFi battle in my ruby but it didn't work iirc. So fortunately we don't have to worry about that.