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np: BW Ubers Suspect Round 3 - Dazed and Confused

Discussion in 'BW Ubers' started by bojangles, Apr 2, 2013.

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  1. shrang

    shrang Defend the Headquarters of Revolution
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    Yeah, Moody sucks. In every way possible. It sucks when you're using it because you never get the boosts that you want, it sucks when you're facing it because you can lose a game that you should win because it's just so bloody ridiculous. Even if you DO get lucky facing it, chances are that you'd spend at least 30-40 turns trying to kill the opponent since they can just spam Sub and Protect with little worry. For the one game which I actually got Moody to work for me, I felt so bad about the win that I didn't feel like I won at all. There is seriously nothing productive about unbanning Moody. It sucks when you use it, it sucks when you face it, and most of the time, you can easily slog out 40-50 turns just on one Pokemon.

    I guess the main argument is that it's too luck reliant, but when you have something like this (http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/replay/uberssuspecttest13761733), it's just plain bs. No-one deserves to lose a game like that, a game which, in all intents and purposes, was won.
  2. ElectivireRocks

    ElectivireRocks Banned deucer.

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    Didn't he now? The player who lost was but very lucky and unskilled:
    -He got a critical hit that OHKO'd Kyogre on turn 1 (12% chance of happening, far less than not missing an attack after a +2 evasion boost)
    -Used Taunt on Wobbuffet which doesn't really accomplish anything other than delaying the inevitable KO
    -Used Dark Pulse on a full health Breloom instead of switching out to absorb the incoming Spore or Mach Punch, which everything else in his team could have done better than Darkrai
    -Kept Latias on an ice-type for a couple of turns, before sending Lugia in, another ice-weak pokemon
    -On top of that, his team has 3 ice weaknesses and no ice resists. In ubers. That's automatic suicide. It didn't take a Glalie with Moody to win, any decent Ice Beam user could have swept his team. If your Kyogre didn't get OHKO'd by that crit in the first turn you could have destroyed his team effortlessly with a mindless Ice Beam spam (except Latias, who could have been easily stopped by Wobbuffet).
  3. shrang

    shrang Defend the Headquarters of Revolution
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    Really? At that point in the game (in which Glalie switched in), I really don't think ANY Ice Beam user would have been able to sweep his team. Scarf Kyurem-W is probably the closest thing, but that would have been stopped by ExtremeKiller pretty easily.

    Anyway, that's beside the point. I'm not trying to get into a blaming game on who haxed the other more. The thing about Moody, just like in that game, is the way it completely wins you games that you have had no other way of winning. It's the way that it completely takes the game out of your hands that makes it so broken. Even if it doesn't, you still have to be subjected to long PP stall rounds a lot of the time.
  4. lousy918

    lousy918

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    lol moody is retarded I can't even ladder properly,
  5. Hack

    Hack formerly Hack He Must
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    [​IMG]

    After a tedious Swedish winter, I set out to get my long awaited requirements for the Moody suspect test, a test I personally looked forward to a lot, simply because as a "newer" player I never really understood its brokenness.

    Until today. DAMN YOU BIBAREL. The sun shone through my window this morning. At 1999 ACRE I was smiling, as I finally had gotten some kind of flow in my playing. So I pressed the "find battle" button once more and in the team preview I saw... Bibarel and Glalie. And I lost miserably.

    Dragging out games 40 turns, factoring in more luck in a game that is better related to gambling than chess contrary to common belief, is not the way to make things better. Enjoyment is a big, subjective statement of course, but in this case many people would probably agree that enjoyment isn't 40 turns of struggling endlessly against a NEVERUSED Pokémon in the Uber tier.

    I couldn't save any replays unfortunately as the team I was using is rather secret, but a guy called Melee Mewtwo might post his fiendish schemes soon enough. To be continued...
  6. Imma Fly

    Imma Fly Who needs wings when you have Rokushiki?
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    This post is an identification post to show that I obtained the reqs.

    I agree with what Hack He Must said about Moody.

    A Bibarel/Glalie using sub-protect to stall for time in order to gain the boosts it needs at this rate is definitely going to reduce the competitiveness of the Ubers Metagame. By using such a strategy (Moody), even inexperienced players are able to beat more experienced counterparts with just some luck on their side, be it the correct stat boosts or a missed attack (Eg. Focus Blast/Miss). In my opinion, Moody ought to stay banned in order for the competitiveness of the Ubers metagame to be retained. As a avid player of Ubers, I do hope that Moody will never be unbanned...
  7. oSeasons

    oSeasons
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    I especially hate it when my opponent spams protects consecutively (works EVERYTIME) as they are about to lose the battle so that they can gain enough evasion/defence boosts to pp stall my extreme speed to 0.
  8. Ancien Régime

    Ancien Régime capitalism delenda est
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    I've got off to a good start with a simple Smashpass strategy - the beauty of it is that even if you get a bad boost, you can always just White Herb it away, and by then you're probably at 3x or 4x in whatever stat you need to sweep with an evasion boost to boot.
  9. ZetoTarken

    ZetoTarken

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    While I don't have the time to participate in this because school is too powerful, I can drop some basic statistics because they're easy to do.
    Show Hide
    [​IMG] YES, I know that around the 5 and 6 area there's some incorrect things because moody can't boost a stat already at +6. I don't feel like actually mathing out what happens there. Part of why I chose 5 turns is so my being slightly off between +5/+6 only affects +5/+6. P(5) should be slightly higher and P(6) should be slightly lower but its a fraction of a percent please forgive me it doesn't affect the rest of the probabilities listed in this case.


    In the spoiler tags are the probabilities of a chosen stat(say attack) being a +/-x after 5 turns. I'm not going to do stuff like probability of multiple stats because that's really hard. And I'm not going to do more than 5 turns because its hard enough to make sure you're accounting for 243(3^5) permutations much less the 59049 permutations of 10 turns and all the weird corner casses that go with them. All the stuff at the top is me(kinda) showing my work the decimals at the bottom are all the probabilities and P(-) and P(+) are the probabilities have have a net drop/boost respectively.

    Something that is not in my little excel SS is that at turn 1 you have a 1/7 chance of getting a drop and a 1/7 chance of getting a boost.
    Show Hide
    Or a 1/7 chance of getting a boost and a 6/7(chance of no boost)*1/6(remaining stats) = 1/7 chance of getting a drop if you don't believe me that its 1/7 for both
    While after 5 turns you have a almost 50% chance to get a boost and a little over 25% chance of getting a drop. As turns approach infinity P(+) should start to be twice P(-) due to the nature of the boosts.


    TL;DR Protect-Subbing for 10+ turns will generally have better results than having Smeargle Smash-Passing and only getting 2-3 turns of Moody triggers.
  10. MeteorMiss

    MeteorMiss

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    If, by some miracle, I get a ladder ranking high enough to vote, do I have to retain it until the end of the suspect period, or can I just take a screenshot when I achieve it?
  11. oSeasons

    oSeasons
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    you only need a picture of your alt's name and your rating:P
  12. G-Von

    G-Von

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    Is there any reason why I should have won this battle?

    http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/replay/uberssuspecttest13858992

    or this one?

    http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/replay/uberssuspecttest13859838

    Maybe that one since the kid sucked, but still, I don't play Ubers and I just wanted to try Moody out. I forgot to save a replay where I missed Spore to show that Moody can comeback to hurt you -.- It just goes to show how noncompetitive Moody is and should stay banned.

    http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/replay/uberssuspecttest13867075

    lol.
  13. preserve

    preserve

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    Manaphy can use heart swap and steal all the stat's boosts. A Ghost type with curse can also ruin moody teams if things like Pranskter Sableye and moves with 100 percent accuracy don't work, but I don't people will want metagame to change that way.
  14. Rhys DeAnno

    Rhys DeAnno Slacking Off

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    So I finally finished qualifying with my usual rainstall team. It's consistency against crappy teams served well in the suspect gauntlet, and Tspikes in general are effective against Moody.

    Show Hide
    [​IMG]


    I almost regret facing skilled Moody teams as little as I did, and I only faced Melee Mewtwo's MonoTaunt TSpikes Control concoction once (he wasn't piloting it). I beat it, but it didn't get good moody boosts, and it might've won if it had. I'm less convinced of Moody being reasonable than I originally was, and I'm not sure how I'll vote. I'll watch some games/replays involving Moody and maybe have a couple friendly scrimmages against Melee Mewtwo.

    Another point unrelated to Moody I'd like to discuss is Glicko2 inflation (or possible lack thereof), which I feel is going to play a huge role in this test. Right now in the current state of the ladder most people would agree with me that it's pretty hard to get to 2000 +/- 55, not due to Moody really but more just in terms of general difficulty and match payoff.

    However, in many recent suspect tests we have seen Glicko2 ratings inflate over the course of the test as more and more ladder accounts are created, screwed up, and trashed. This trashing mechanic tends to isolate "negative" Glicko2 points and slowly inflates the rankings of the active ladder as the test goes on. The upshot of this is it will be easier, possibly way easier, to qualify next week as the deadline approaches.

    This difficulty lowering mechanic seems a little undesirable to me, since it means reqs are too hard early and too easy late, but I have no clue what we could practically do to fix it. Also due to this ubers test possibly being less populated than a normal OU test, it's possible inflation won't get as out of control as it was during BWOU Round 10 (Then again, the lower population might let persistent players poison the well more intensely and have the opposite effect).

    Anyways, fun test, gg everyone, even those I raged at a bit :P
  15. ElectivireRocks

    ElectivireRocks Banned deucer.

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    "I didn't deserve to win" isn't a fair argument to use when addressing Moody.
    Is it fair to win when you get a lucky critical hit?
    Is it fair to win when a full paralysis saves you?
    Is it fair to win when your opponent misses 90% or 95% accuracy move?

    Something deserves to be banned if it has no counters and if it overcentralizes the metagame.
    If you're using Moody of course you're reling on the hope you'll get the right stat boosts, just like you rely on Toxic and Draco Meteor not missing when you run those moves.

    In most of these replays the players who lose against Moody aren't even trying to stop it to begin with. In my opinion, yes, they did deserve to lose.
  16. Darknesscrusher

    Darknesscrusher

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    So you do think it's reasonable for everyone on the tier to keep BIBAREL/SMEARGLE/GLALIE/OCTILLERY into acount? Those are all pretty much shit pokémons (smeargle has some niche, but meh.), and you think it's obvious for everyone to have a stop from a totally random, and crappy ability?
  17. Terraquaza

    Terraquaza You chegger?
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    why is the laddersystem so retarded :_:

    and moody is just shit, dont compare it with low acc moves lol
  18. blitzlefan

    blitzlefan shake it off!

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    I agree with this a lot. I hate the fact that I keep having to deal with lead Focus Sash Smeargles. They're just so annoying, having Spore to cripple basically anybody on your team. There aren't any great Magic Bouncers (Xatu and Espeon are mediocre at best by Ubers standards), multi-hit moves are basically nonexistent, Magic Coat users depend heavily on prediction, there aren't any Pokemon with Insomnia/Vital Spirit, and SleepTalk as a whole is unreliable and Lum Berry leads with ultimately lose (unless they have significant Speed investment, for example, lead Defensive Dialga will lose even with Lum Berry; as Smeargle Spores and Dialga wakes up with Lum Berry, uses Dragon Pulse to knock Smeargle to Focus Sash, and then Smeargle puts something to sleep. Phazing also does not always work due to the negative priority unless you phaze them out with Roar/Dragon Tail while they use Shell Smash; however, if you attempt to Roar while they Spore or spam Protect to rack up Moody boosts, you will most likely lose the matchup. Lastly, priority can do a number on Smeargle, but risking your Arceus-Normal or Rayquaza to sleep just to knock out a Smeargle sucks. I really hate this thing. Can somebody give me some ideas on how to beat it? I really hate having to sack a Pokemon to sleep in order to get a phazer in.

    Moving on to the rest (screw Smeargle), I don't think that any of the Moody users deserve to be use as match as they currently are in Ubers. All of them suck and simply relying on Evasion boosts to engage in long stall wars is incredibly uncompetitive. Without Moody, they all completely suck in Ubers, and I think this gives too much of a luck/hax factor into the match, as they are dependent on Evasion boosts, and seeing as Evasion clause was retained, I see no reason to free Moody users. (I would say kick out Smeargle too, but obviously this is no place for that.)
  19. RotomPoison

    RotomPoison

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    I really hope Moody stays banned/gets the fuck out

    Fuck evasion being unbanned too, but not many people use it, Moody wil be all hell if it's allowed
  20. bobbyvaporeon

    bobbyvaporeon

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    Moody is not that bad. You only have a small chance of getting the evasion boost that makes it so annoying. I'd ban it in conjunction with Baton pass on smeargle.
  21. shrang

    shrang Defend the Headquarters of Revolution
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    I'm more concerned by the non-competitive nature of playing that Moody brings to the table. It's not that you deserve to win or lose, it's more of the way that Moody completely takes the game away from your hands. You are right in that deserving to win or lose is irrelevant, it's more of the fact that can either deserve to win or deserve to lose, yet the result is the same, you can lose to Moody. When you use Moody or play against it, the basic result is that you don't win or lose because you played well or played poorly, but because Moody gave you the right or wrong boosts. Right now, I'm using a really shitty team that swept by virtually everything, yet this does not matter in the slightest, since I have Moody on my team. Whether I win or lose (usually) does not matter on how well I play, or how well I make my team, but whether I'm lucky with Moody or not (which I'm not). It's almost like bringing a third player into the match and asking him "you decide on who wins and who loses".
  22. Lavos Spawn

    Lavos Spawn
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    huh

    so far i'm 20-0 and the only team that's given me trouble was this one moody team with protect/sub/ingrain/bp smeargle. let me tell you that thing was the biggest bitch to try to handle, the very first turn it caught +2 evasion and hitting it became nearly impossible. i ended up in a war with the ho-oh he passed to, he had +4 evasion but -4 accuracy and it turned into a luck fest of who could hit whom first. not the kind of game i want in competitive ubers to say the least. more updates to come
  23. Dubby

    Dubby

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    have you come across the famous moody glalie yet? the only way to stop it is perish song arceus (which according to some users means its ok to unban moody)
  24. trickroom

    trickroom
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    Using Perish Song to stop Moody is not very reliable if the opponent has a Wobbuffet. Unless the user is Ghost Arceus (Dark is rare, Bug?lol) which is using Perish Song, the rest of the Arceus forms will get trapped and you die while the Moody user can switch out.

    I played a bit on the ladder, and most of the time you don't see much Moody users, I was one of those who tried Bibarel and Glalie and even shared some teams with a few. I already reached high enough to qualify for the vote by using the Moody team but I will not identify myself.

    What I think about Moody is once that Beaver or Glalie gets a free switch in, or just get lucky, chances are you are going to hate facing it. Even if you have Calm Mind Kyogre or Latias with Thunder, they might just get lucky and obtained Speed boosts. Thunder's 16 PP can be stalled out with Protect + Sub, which even if it fails will stall you out for tens of turns.

    Don't think Bibarel and Glalie have such shit stats they are useless. At +2, Bibarel's Return is an easy 2HKO on Kyogre and Waterfall still packs quite a punch in rain. Glalie has both Taunt and Frost Breath which crits 100% of the time so don't think you can CM alongside it and win in the end, just not happening. Although Frost Breath has only 16 PP so that can be stalled out if you have Blissey + defensive Kyogre or Ho-Oh but if just Stealth Rock is down, then you can't win. Oh, mr.Beaver gets Taunt too so watchout! You can argue Giratina walls it but you can't do much back to Beaver, so it only delays the Moody roll. Glalie hates defensive Kyogre with Roar or Thunder but as mentioned earlier, those evasion boosts will annoy you a lot. You can't stop them with walls all the time and they sometimes carry Taunt. Also, those Roar and Whirlwind might miss lol.

    For Smeargle, it abuses Moody the best. It can just spam Protect and pass the boosts safely although it takes sometime compared to Shell Smash, no one is stopping you from using Moody and Shell Smash together! White Herb can still save all the stat drops if your recipient has it. +2 Evasion combined with Shell Smash passed to your sweeper? It will be almost game over. If you are fan of long stalling, Smeargle can find an opening and sweep with Stored Power as long as you get a free switch in and you can even come in on Ghost Arceus if you are feeling lucky, because Arceus only has 8 chances to Focus Blast you. If you grab a Speed boost, you already won the war with Ghost Arceus by spamming Protect and Sub. When you gathered enough boosts, sweep with Stored Power, and even with Smeargle's bad stats, Stored Power is killing things with a lot of boosts. Bibarel can do the same because it is immune to Judgment and Shadow Sneak which is pretty fun.

    The only flaw of Moody is you need luck to succeed and if you don't get the boost you need, you die. Also, most people posted their experience and I have to agree with shrang. You get angry when they don't give you the boost you want, but your opponent is annoying you with that lucky Speed boost, and that happened a lot. Luck > Skill, it can turn the tables on you and don't be surprise if Bibarel 6-0es your team, it can easily happen if you give it a free Sub.

    I will just post a picture of my rank with a troll team lol RisingDino featuring Rhyperior, its currently 1st on ladder ( anyone can get 1st in Ubers lol ), losing to hax mostly which is bs but its stupid pokemon. Don't ask for my other alts LOL, you won't find them but it is still in the ladderboard list with the requirements.
    too huge lol (open)
    [​IMG]

    newer one lol (open)
    [​IMG]


    I have not seen many Moody players because me, Melee Mewtwo and just a few others were using it but when I tried it, Moody really is gay.
  25. lousy918

    lousy918

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    lol I pondered for a bit, smashpass smeargle doesn't seem to take as much advantage of moody, since atk boost only helps with brick breaking the blobs. SAtk helps against SDef kyogre, which is OHKOed after sr or with a boosting item. Spe boost helps against excadrill, the end. bulk is rly useless, but sometimes if u used up spore it could ease baton passing. dialga uses only 100% acc moves, but evasion is just gay lol gg.
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