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np: RU stage 16 - Ding Dong The Witch is Dead

Discussion in 'BW RU' started by Molk, Apr 1, 2013.

  1. ScopionSniper

    ScopionSniper

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    Been having a lot of Success with sandstorm set up Sandslash. While I do not like him as a spinner he has done a lot of work for me as a late game sweeper.

    Sandslash @ Life Orb
    Trait: Sand Rush
    EVs: 252 Spd / 252 Atk / 4 HP
    Adamant/Jolly Nature
    - Earthquake
    - Stone Edge
    - X-Scissor
    - Sandstorm

    some examples:

    http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ru-34921577

    http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ru-21112619

    http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ru-20682412

    Plus another 20+ replays of the same thing Sandslash taking 3-5 pokemon down. I think people should give this set a better shot.
    Double01 likes this.
  2. Explorer

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    This is a set I almost never use, believe it or not. While it's by no means bad, in RU I almost always use the Adamant LO Rock Polish variant. It once got me out of a 4-1 deficit under hail and ended the battle in a draw (ToxicStall Walrein) (I will post the replay if I can find it). It makes a nice offensive FWG core with Typhlosion and Feraligatr.

    DarkonDark: This is a nice set; maybe try having something such as Cradily set up Sandstorm for you and run Swords Dance + 3 attacks.
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  3. Cherub Agent

    Cherub Agent ium and me <3
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    Oh, I'm glad people in this tier are using LumRest Eggy. It was one of my absolute favourite sets to use in NU, but lost a lot of its effectiveness with the RU drops in Scolipede, Jynx, Primeape and Munchlax. I've only played with it a couple of times in RU, but its invaluable in RU with all the Sleep users floating around. I also used 100 EVs for Lanturn, as its a great benchmark to hit, and Eggy has some pretty cool physical bulk which would be a shame to waste on Speed imo. The big point of debate is imo Psychic vs Psyshock, but it really just depends on your team I suppose. Psychic is better against behemoths such as Tangrowth, whereas Psyshock is more effective against Quiver Dance Lilligant and Cryogonal. This Exeggutor simply.matches up really well against... opposing support and utility Pokemon. Things sucj as Qwilfish, Slowking, Tangrowth, Smeargle, hazard Omastar and even Kabutops if Eggy is at full health and Kabu hasnt Swords Danced. Try it out, it's a really impressive Pokemon. Keep it away from Escavalier though!

    On a further note, has anyone tried Sunny Day Exeggutor in tandem with Scarf Emboar? It's a combo I used in NU for a long time, as Emboar can just barrel through anything that is annoying for Exeggutor such as Clefable and Spiritomb, and absolutely adores Sunny Day. It might also be an interesting anti-hail strategy!
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  4. Explorer

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    Sun: Exeggutor + Emboar

    I will agree that Exeggutor and Emboar both make for potent sun sweepers with the right support, but I would not put Sunny Day on Exeggutor; it would rather straight-out attack. Thus I suggest placing Sunny Day elsewhere.

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    Possibilities:
    Uxie- it's good at almost everything support-wise, and is one of the bulkiest Sun setters out there
    Spiritomb- gives priority, status support, and Sunny Day all in one if you need it all, plus no weaknesse
    Specially Defensive Bouffalant- excellent coverage moves and good bulk; counters Lilligant who wish to countersweep in sun
    Bastiodon- great bulk, good synergy with Exeggutor and Emboar, can set hazards and abuse sun with STAB Fire Blast
    Rhydon- excellent physical bulk, gives EdgeQuake, has its water weakness reduced in sun
    Armaldo- it can spin and set up sun, and has great attacking options, including EdgeQuake; as a sidenote this is one of Armaldo's few niches over Kabutops in RU
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  5. DittoCrow

    DittoCrow
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    *Ok I moved all of the posts about potential drops out of this thread. We have a thread for theorymonning. You can talk about new mons after they drop, but for now you're just speculating.*

    Anti-Metagame Threats

    [​IMG]

    Anyways, there's a topic I wanted to discuss for a while: Anti-metagame threats. Last year around this time, Magmortar was THE anti-meta Pokemon (see: c_l's rmt). It destroyed defensive teams, which were the most common type of team last year. Now, however, offensive and balance teams are more common, and the metagame has changed drastically. Is there a single Pokemon that can blaze through these teams? Discuss!
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  6. Explorer

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    This was an anti-lead I designed and discussed in a previous post in this thread, so I re-posted it for reference.

    Generally, when I am looking for anti-metagame Pokemon, I look at the newest usage stats and pick Pokemon with movesets designed to work around the most popular Pokemon.

    Here is one other example that came to my mind:

    [​IMG]
    Absol (M) @ Life Orb
    Trait: Super Luck
    EVs: 252 Atk/4 SpA/252 Spe
    Nature: Naive
    -Night Slash
    -Sucker Punch
    -Fire Blast
    -Superpower/Ice Beam

    Absol is an anti-meta wallbreaker! The incredible base 130 attack lets it plow through many walls. Absol is immune to Uxie's STAB move and can hit it hard with its own STAB moves, along with Slowking. Fire Blast roasts Tangrowth, Escavalier, Ferroseed, Amoonguss, and Snover. Superpower can be used to hit Aggron and other Absol, or Ice Beam can be used to hit Druddigon, among other things.

    Do either the Absol or Archeops seem viable as anti-meta wall breakers?
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  7. EonX

    EonX The One and Only
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    Of those two, I think Absol would be much more consistent. Archeops's SR weakness, overall frailty, and Defeatist just kind of make it inconsistent. Against most offensive teams, it doesn't have many (if any) switch-in opportunities due to most resisted hits knocking Archeops into Defeatist range after SR. I can see it being a lot more effective against balance and stall teams that generally can't deal with its coverage (speaking of its coverage, I kind of prefer Heat Wave on any set looking to simply utilize Archeops's coverage as compared to the raw power of its Acrobatics)

    As for my own thoughts on Anti-metagame threats, one springs to mind to me:

    [​IMG]
    Mesprit @ Expert Belt / Choice Specs
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 92 HP / 252 SAtk / 164 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Psyshock
    - Ice Beam
    - Thunderbolt
    - U-turn

    Mesprit kind of defines anti-metagame right now imo. It has just enough Speed to get in front of walls and bulkier threats while still having bulk of its own to find good switch-in opportunities against common offensive threats such as Slowking and Sceptile. It has great coverage on many of the top threats as Uxie is really the only Top 5 Pokemon (from May's usage stats) that can safely come in on Mesprit. Mesprit's set of resistances and immunities really helps as well. The pixie can take Fighting-, Psychic-, and Ground-type moves with relative ease while still keeping up offensive pressure. I personally prefer Psyshock since Mesprit has Thunderbolt and Ice Beam (or Blizzard on Hail teams) to take care of most physical walls anyway (think stuff like Tangrowth, Alomomola, and Qwilfish) and Psyshock lets it perform better against things like Gallade, Cryogonal, and Clefable. U-turn helps Mesprit to lure out Pursuit users such as Escavalier and Spiritomb early on so its teammates can handle them before the pixie unleashes the full extent of its coverage (which is really good right now) Expert Belt over Choice Specs is a personal preference for me as I just love being able to abuse that coverage on the team I use it on. That said, Mesprit can perform many roles effectively. It can sweep, wallbreak, support, and revenge kill.
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  8. Punchshroom

    Punchshroom para is worse than sleep
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    Archeops also gets Crunch if you want that.
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  9. ScraftyIsTheBest

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    Well, here's something I've found to be very anti-meta.

    [​IMG]

    Scolipede @Salac Berry
    Trait: Swarm
    EVs: 12 HP / 244 Atk / 252 Spe
    Jolly Nature
    - Swords Dance
    - Substitute
    - Megahorn
    - Aqua Tail

    Look, it's the SubPetaya Empoleon of RU! SubSalac Scolipede is very anti-meta at the moment, as it can set up a Swords Dance to pose a serious threat, while it's faster than most of the metagame. Substitute and Megahorn allow it to handle Uxie pretty well. Salac Berry is also wonderful, meaning if it activates, Scolipede outspeeds everything, and Swarm boosts its mighty Megahorn to even greater levels. Bug STAB is great to have atm, and Scolipede can beat a lot of offensive teams with its power and speed. It has Aqua Tail+Megahorn to put hurt on much of the metagame too, which is excellent. This means the only S-Rank threat Scolipede doesn't have a shot at beating one-on-one is Escavalier, which is pretty great. It also puts some real dents in Tangrowth and Steelix, and can dodge Spore from sleep users. Scolipede also beats Lilligant and Jynx one-on-one. Overall, I find SubSalac Scolipede to be pretty anti-meta atm, pretty good set overall.
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  10. Explorer

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    Yeah, I forgot about that. Crunch > Shadow Claw for sure. I also tried moving some EVs to Special Attack for a nasty OHKO on standard Tangrowth with Heat Wave.

    ScraftyIsTheBeast also mentions Escavalier being the only top RU threat to beat his Scolipede set, so I propose another anti-meta partner to Scolipede:

    [​IMG]
    Hariyama (M) @ Toxic Orb
    Trait: Guts
    EVs: 240 HP/252 Atk/16 Spe
    Nature: Adamant
    -Cross Chop
    -Fire Punch
    -Ice Punch
    -Thunderpunch/Fake Out/Stone Edge

    This Hariyama is also very anti-meta in that it beats many common RU threats 1v1. For starters, Fire Punch absolutely demolishes Escavalier, while Ice Punch does a number on Druddigon, while either move can be used for a heavy blow on Sceptile (Acrobatics is an issue though, and Scolipede may handle it better anyway). Thunderpunch is Hariyama's best bet against Slowking since it doesn't get Wild Charge/X-Scissor, while Fake Out can let Hariyama activate its orb freely. Stone Edge hits many Pokemon as well, particularly Moltres. Thanks to Toxic Orb, Hariyama can also freely switch in on any Tangrowth (after the orb activates) that is not SubSeed or Choice Specs/Band and wear it down with continuous Ice Punches.

    *I would recommend Wish support since Hariyama lacks Drain Punch and can get worn down easily with this set. Tailwind support from Whimsicott would also be very helpful and could let Hariyama sweep.
    Double01 likes this.
  11. DittoCrow

    DittoCrow
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    I don't think that Hariyama is really an anti-meta threat. I've used a different set quite often, and while it has very little switch-ins, Hariyama himself has trouble switching into many offensive threats. It shouldn't take many hits because it will be worn down by hazards and its Status orb. Furthermore, it's really slow, meaning that the most common Pokemon on offensive teams outspeed it and wear it down. Hariyama is really effective in wearing down the opposing team, but I don't think that it can sweep easily (especially with bulkier Pokemon like Uxie and Slowking checking it).

    I don't really understand the reasoning behind your set either. When poisoned, Hariyama OHKOes Escavalier with Close Combat after Stealth Rock and has a 62.5% chance to OHKO Druddigon without SR. Facade also 2HKOes Pokemon that you're using Fire Punch / Ice Punch / ThunderPunch for, such as Amoonguss; it is also much better to hinder Slowking and Uxie switch-ins (it 2HKOes both). Therefore, you don't really need the elemental punches. Just using Facade will free up moveslots; here's the set I used:

    [​IMG]
    Hariyama (M) @ Toxic Orb
    Trait: Guts
    EVs: 252 Atk / 172 SDef / 84 Spd
    Adamant Nature
    - Close Combat
    - Facade
    - Fake Out
    - Bullet Punch

    With Close Combat and Facade basically 2HKOing everything, I was able to use Fake Out to get a free activation of Toxic Orb or to pick off threats such as Cinccino together with Bullet Punch. Hariyama is extremely hard to switch into and it always deals a lot of damage to the opponent, but it can be checked by bulky Psychic-types and faster Pokemon and worn down easily.
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  12. Cherub Agent

    Cherub Agent ium and me <3
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    That Hariyama set is really underrated and effective, but I have always used Defense EVs for it instead of investing in Special Defense. I completely get why one would use SpD EVs with Thick Fat, as most Fire- and Ice-type moves are specially based, but when your're using Guts, you really need to consider that Hariyama's resistances to Rock (Stone Edge/Rock Slide), Bug (Megahorn) and Dark (Crunch/Night Slash) are all primarily physically based. I looked it up on the analysis but the only description was: to make the most of Hariyama's bulk, which I don't agree with. Is thre something I'm missing though?
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  13. DittoCrow

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    Yeah, I think physical Defense EVs are actually a better choice for Hariyama, because of what you said as well as how most priority moves are physical. I changed it on site.

    Anyways, not really sure if this classifies as "anti-meta" since it's not like the Magmortar I described, but it is a threat that easily destroys unprepared teams once it gets a free switch-in, which isn't hard:

    [​IMG]

    It's rare to see Aggron not get at least one KO per game. Steel-types are really good in this meta because of their resistances, especially to Dragon because of how popular Druddigon is. Aggron is one of the few Pokemon that can OHKO Druddigon, too. Many teams that are not defensive (ie. having something like Poliwrath) will not have a Pokemon to switch into a CB Head Smash. This usually gives the Aggron user a nice advantage, getting an instant OHKO or something close to it. It has many switch-in opportunities because of its resistances, so it's not very difficult to get an opportunity to use Head Smash. Aggron is also a great 'lead' believe it or not, since it matches up well against Druddigon, Uxie, and Mesprit. I know some people think the Rock Polish set is anti-meta as well, but I haven't had much experience with it.

    tl;dr Aggron = auto-KO
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  14. Molk

    Molk Crustle knocked off the opposing Rhydon's Assault Vest!
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    Hmmm tbh thinking about it, i really couldn't think of anything that could be considered anti metagame in RU at the moment. There might be anti metagame threats in other metas where there are a few playstyles or cores that are way more popular than others (see: OU). But in RU there are a ton more viable Pokemon and playstyles, and overall its really hard to think of a Pokemon that gives all of them trouble. CherubAgent actually sent me a vm yesterday implying something similar to what i'm saying now when i asked him if he could think of it, heres the quote of it for reference.

    Thats basically my opinion regarding anti metagame threats at the moment after putting some thought into it.

    [​IMG]

    So on another note, heres something i've wanted to ask for a little while. Its been almost 3 months since Nidoqueen moved back up to UU, and there's no doubt that Nidoqueen was a huge threat that probably had a pretty big effect on the metagame back then, being an excellent wallbreaker and causing liability giving quite a few common Pokemon a hard time during its stay in the tier. So, after 3 months or so of a queenless metagame, how do you think the tier has changed. Which Pokemon do you think got a boost in popularity simply because of Nidoqueen leaving the tier, and if any, were there any Pokemon do you think aren't as good now because Nidoqueen left. Are there any teams that you definitely would've used during the Nidoqueen meta (that didnt use queen of course) that you probably wouldn't use now due to metagame shifts, and vice versa, are there any teams/playstyles you have that are much more viable now that Nidoqueen is gone? Personally, i think there's been a definite, totally noticable metagame shift since Nidoqueen left, possibly for the better. Its pretty easy to see that Nidoqueen's abscence made some pokemon and playstyles better. Just look at Alomomola for example, she didn't see too much usage while Nidoqueen was in the tier, but now that she's gone, Alomomola's become a top defensive threat. Other Pokemon that i think benefitted from Nidoqueen leaving either directly or indirectly are Golurk and Ferroseed. As for playstyles, more balanced/stall teams are definitely more viable now, and ever since Nidoqueen left i've seen a definite fall in the Uxie+FWG combo that was incredibly common in the Nidoqueen metagame. I usually opt for more bulky teams now, such as my Zangoose team. Lastly, i've seen a decent increase in hazards usage too! mainly because many of the defensive hazard setters are much more viable in Nidoqueen's abscence.

    EDIT: btw don't forget about dittocrow's discussion, if you can think of an antimeta pokemon we might've missed, feel free to post!
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  15. Cherub Agent

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    Coming back to the anti-metagame strategies, I thought good and hard about it. As far as actual Pokemon go, I don't think that there are that many (although Aggron is a good one, although I personally prefer Rock Polish :>) but Molk and I recently made a team, and decided to slap Toxic Spikes on a Roselia over Synthesis, as we already had Alomomola to heal it up. I took the team for a test run, and Toxic Spikes are outstanding in this metagame.

    Practically every single playstyle is crippled by them. Offense is crippled by a single layer, as Pokemon are worn down by their Life Orbs and Substitutes, and often stay in for around 2-3 turns, where a single layer outdamages two (and spendind two turns giving an offensive team free turns isn't the best strategy). Stall despises two layers of Toxic Spikes for obvious reasons, and bulky offense is kind of a mix between the two: you can tell from Team Preview how many layers are required to put the maximum pain on the opponent. Hail is another strategy that suffers from Toxic Spikes for one main reason: it's an incredibly efficient way to get rid of Walrein. A single layer cancels out both Ice Body and Leftovers, which means that it cannot outstall your Pokemon anymore.

    Of course, RU is famous for having highly efficent Rapid Spinners. The cute thing about Toxic Spikes however is that Kabutops and Sandslash cannot avoid being Poisoned, which makes it far easier to wear them down over the course of the match. Cryogonal is immune to them, true, but is trapped and eliminated by Spiritomb who can prevent the Rapid Spin as well. Of course you still have to deal with grounded Poison-types, but they are a lot rarer after Nidoqueen's departure, and the only really notable ones are Qwilfish, Amoonguss and Roselia off the top of my head. It also helps that Toxic Spikes users are not "obvious" in RU: Roselia is mainly seen with only Spikes, Omastar as either a Shell Smasher or with Stealth Rock and Spikes, Qwilfish again mainly with Spikes, and the same story with Scolipede.

    Here's a short list of common Pokemon in RU that are often utterly crippled by Toxic Spikes: Druddigon, Slowking, Entei, Sceptile, Emboar, Gallade, Spiritomb, Lilligant, Tangrowth, Alomomola, Rhydon, etc.
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  16. Punchshroom

    Punchshroom para is worse than sleep
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    Well to be honest, this is of little surprise to me. As someone who played RU before Nidoqueen dominated, Toxic Spikes very efficiently crippled a lot of pokemon. While the occasional Amoonguss, Drapion and ironically Qwilfish (one of the premier setters) can throw a wrench in your plans, they are nowhere near as ubiquitous as Quenn was and thus you are more likely to cripple stuff with T-Spikes sooner than later. The only downside is that Amoonguss is a pain in the ass to get rid off, but that is a comparatively small fault.
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  17. Silvershadow234

    Silvershadow234 :]]]]]
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    Queen leaving hasn't affected the meta in a drastic way, but there have definitely been some changes. Aggron for example is a lot better in this metagame-it takes full advantage of the bulkier shift the metagame has taken, and the most common and best rock resist has left the tier, so it lost a big check. Electric and bug types have also become better-without queen, most teams lack a ground type making volt switch much safer to use. Likewise without queen, pokemon such as accelgor / galvantula no longer have to run HP water and miss out on mons such as moltres and braviary. Golurk has also benefited, as it covers many of the same pokemon that queen did, sets sr and can still be a very potent wallbreaker with a cb set-obviously it can't change moves, but it still destroys things with it's STAB moves. In much more general terms, the meta has become more bulky offense-teams utilising defensive spikers such as roselia and qwilfish have become much more common, which queen previosuly used as fodder to launch off a powerful attack. Speaking of hazards, toxic spikes are, as cherub said, are rlly good right now. Dual spiking rose and dual spiking qwilfish are insanely good on balanced teams, and make it so much easier to handle p much every grounded threats-notably druddigon, slowking and gallade. Ofc the lack of recovery on rose hurts alot, and qwil loses either taunt / twave, but tspikes are definitely worth a shot in this metagame right now.

    As for the anti-meta mon, I think it's durant. Like aggron, durant rlly takes advantage of the bulky offense turn the metagame has handled, either srsly weakening physical walls such as steelix and poliwrath or simply breaking through them after some prior damage. Thunder fang ant is amazing right now-with queen gone, iron head basically hits nothing lol bar the mighty dusknoir, and thunder fang wrecks qwilfish particularly hard and also 2HKO's wrath iirc. It doesn't fare that well against offensive teams as it does against more defensive teams, but it can still deal a lot of damage with its good coverage and strong, hustle boosted attack.
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  18. EonX

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    Yeah, definitely agreeing that Toxic Spikes are great in this metagame right now. Most of the top Pokemon get crippled by them. The only ones off the top of my head that aren't affected by TSpikes while not being weak to SR are Steels (Aggron, Steelix, Escavalier, etc.) the pixies (Uxie and Mesprit) grounded Poison-types (Roselia, Amoonguss, Qwilfish, etc.) and Rotom Formes (Normal and Mow) I may be missing some, but pretty much everything else gets ruined by the correct amount. I feel this is one of the bigger reasons as to why many Kabutops have begun to run a Lum Berry so they can deal with TSpikes at least once.

    As for Aggron, it's great in this meta. Basically, if you don't carry a Rock resist on your team, you're losing a team member every time it gets in safely. End of story. I find Aggron and Mesprit to be quite effective together. Neither gets hit by TSpikes, Aggron resists SR, and Mesprit gets a free pass on Spikes thanks to Levitate. Also, due to Levitate, Mesprit can easily handle both Fighting- and Ground-types moves aimed at Aggron while Mesprit can lure out stuff like Spiritomb and Escavalier and get Aggron in safely with U-turn. As long as you have a way to deal with Ferroseed and Steelix in particular, Aggron and Mesprit can cause a lot of issues for the opponent when used together.

    And finally, Queen leaving the tier has changed a fair few things. Bulky Offense seems to be the preferred playstyle now with defensive Spikers being much more viable now. Stuff like Aggron, Durant, and Accelgor have also benefited from losing one of their biggest checks / counters. Most of the other things involving Queen leaving the tier have already been covered imo.
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  19. ScraftyIsTheBest

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    Totally agreeing that Toxic Spikes are pretty awesome in this metagame. A large portion of the metagame gets threatened by the Toxic Spikes, and the chip damage makes a huge difference in how well a Pokemon can do against your team. Things like Druddigon, and most things in the metagame despise it, and poison in general threatens all kinds of playstyles. Toxic Spikes are awesome on hail teams too, as they appreciate the damage to just wear down the counters, and all the grounded Poison-types hate taking a Blizzard to the face. Walrein not only dislikes T-Spikes, but he benefits from them too, because that makes sure he can stall your opponent even easier, as they get immediately Toxic'd for Walrein to just click Substitute and Protect while T-Spikes and Snover's hail do their work. For the record, here's an excellent Toxic Spiker on offensive teams.

    [​IMG]

    Scolipede @ Focus Sash / Life Orb
    Trait: Swarm
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
    Jolly Nature
    - Spikes
    - Toxic Spikes
    - Megahorn
    - Aqua Tail

    I know I've been talking about Scolipede all the time in RU. Toxic Spikes and Spikes are both outstanding in RU, and Scolipede himself is too! With the Toxic Spikes+Spikes, Scolipede has an easy advantage over Accelgor as a Spiker, as he can also set up a hazard that chips away at the opponent's HP, making offensive teams have an easier time dealing with the opponent thanks to their damage. Scolipede is very fast too, so he can set up those deadly Spikes and Toxic Spikes quickly, while firing powerful Megahorns and Aqua Tails to deal some opening damage. Scolipede is an outstanding user of it for the offense.

    I've also run this:

    [​IMG]

    Qwilfish @ Leftovers
    Trait: Intimidate
    EVs: 252 HP / 240 Def / 16 Spe
    Impish Nature
    - Spikes
    - Toxic Spikes
    - Waterfall
    - Pain Split

    This is excellent for a more defensive Spiker, as Qwilfish can check a lot of threats in this metagame such as Entei, Escavalier, Durant, Emboar, Hitmonlee, Scolipede, etc. This means Qwilfish gets a number of opportunities to set up Spikes and Toxic Spikes, and overall make a good choice. It's also an excellent Pokemon on hail teams, setting up Spikes+T-Spikes, patching up the Fire and Fighting weaknesses of hail, and the poison helps Stallrein do his stalling job better.

    As for Aggron, I agree it's pretty awesome in this metagame. CB Head Smash is absolutely insane, and Aggron basically destroys the whole metagame. I have used Aggron in BW1 too, before Queen entered the tier, and it was a damn monster (and is one once more). EonX said it, Aggron and Mesprit are also very good teammates, and the other notable thing is that Mesprit can set up Trick Room to help Aggron sweep more easily, and Healing Wish is also a very good move to allow Aggron to get a second chance to destroy if it is weakened. I have tried New Breed's Queen is a Tryhard team before (which uses Aggron+Mesprit with the TR style), and it is outstanding.

    My opinions on Queen's departure have been covered up pretty well imo.
    Double01 likes this.
  20. Molk

    Molk Crustle knocked off the opposing Rhydon's Assault Vest!
    is a Tutoris a member of the Site Staffis a Smogon Social Media Contributoris a Smogon IRC AOPis a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
    RU Co-Leader

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    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    Revenge Killers

    Revenge killers are an integeral part of any metagame in my opinion, and RU is no exception. With so many powerful but frail threats running around, offensive teams will be hard pressed to find a safe switch in without sacricifing a Pokemon, making a way to pick off Pokemon that could sweep a team otherwise totally essential. Whether it be through a strong Choice Scarfed Pokemon or priority, a revenge killer is invaluable on a team without a particularly strong defensive backbone. Entei is a perfect example of a revenge killer in RU. While most of them rarely, if ever run Choice Scarf, Entei performs the role of Revenge killer admirably because of its decent bulk and the power of a Choice Band ExtremeSpeed. This Extremespeed is powerful enough to pick off most pokemon such as Lilligant and Accelgor with a bit of prior damage, and even some without. ExtremeSpeed even has the bonus of a nice +2 priority, ensuring that a sweeper can't stuff Entei's revenge killing attempt with a priority move of their own, as ExtremeSpeed will always go first. Another form of revenge killer i quite like in the current metagame is the Choice Scarfed electric-type. Most of them have the perfect stat spread for the revenge killer role: high speed, and workable power. Pokemon such as Rotom-C, Rotom-N, Manectric, and Rotom-F (hail only) are all very good Scarfed electric-types. While the speed and power are all pretty cool, my favorite part about the Choice Scarfed electric-type is Volt Switch: one of the best moves in the game in my opinion. Volt Switch lets these scarf Electric-types pressure the pokemon they're trying to revenge kill with a decently powerful STAB move, and even if the opponent switches out to preserve their Pokemon, Volt Switch will give the user the switch advantage, and will still deal a nice amount of chip damage even with a resistance. Other examples of good revenge killers include Scarf Emboar, Absol, Aerodactyl, Medicham, Primeape, and even the rare Ditto and Kangaskhan.

    So, how important do you think revenge killers are in the current metagame? what is your favorite revenge killer? and why? What are some threats that you often uses revenge killers to check?
    Double01 likes this.
  21. EonX

    EonX The One and Only
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    Well, with the team I've been using as of late, it should come as no surprise that Braviary is my revenge killer of choice. Braviary has something that quite a few revenge killers don't have; raw power. Braviary's base 123 Attack stat in tandem with a brutal 120 BP STAB move in Brave Bird means that Braviary doesn't need all that much "chip" damage to take out any threat that is neutral to the move. For those who are thinking "Eon, doesn't Emboar have the same thing going for it?" Well, yes, Emboar does have the same base 123 Attack stat and similar strong 120 BP STAB move in Flare Blitz. However, there's something Braviary holds over Emboar. Extra Speed. With base 80 Speed, Braviary can afford to augment this raw power with an Adamant nature without getting outsped by the likes of Sceptile, Cinccino, and friends whereas Emboar can't do this and get away with it. Braviary also outspeeds Swellow, a really important (and underrated) threat Emboar misses out on. Lastly, Braviary has a safer STAB move to clean up with in Return should Braviary not have the remaining HP late to finish up a match with Brave Bird. Braviary even has U-turn to draw out his checks and counters early so a teammate can be sent in to deal with them.

    Perhaps the biggest perk of Braviary is its ability to revenge kill Gallade with no fear of a priority move. Virtually every other Pokemon faster than Gallade in RU has to deal with the prospect of taking a +2 Shadow Sneak before they can move. However, not only is Braviary immune to Shadow Sneak altogether, but he also hits Gallade on its weaker defense stat for super effective damage. Braviary can also keep pretty much anything slower than it in check if they don't resist Brave Bird due to the raw power. Grass-types are a prime example of this. Sceptile, Amoonguss, and Roselia just get destroyed by Brave Bird and Sceptile is generally the only one that can directly threaten Braviary with HP Rock (though Spore from Amoonguss can get tricky if Sleep Clause isn't activated) Braviary can also check the likes of Accelgor, Durant, Emboar, Feraligatr, and Swellow thanks to its set of resistances and solid bulk (for a Scarf user)

    There are others that are perfectly usable as well. Rotom-N and Glaceon (Hail only) are a couple of Scarf users that come to mind while Sceptile, Swellow, and Accelgor are some examples of those who can use their sheer Speed stat to outpace the vast majority of RU to revenge kill unboosted threats. Priority users include the likes of Feraligatr, Spiritomb, Kabutops, and SD Samurott. If you want to use a team that has any sort of focus on offense (see: anything other than Stall) then you need some sort of revenge killer. Whether it be a Scarf user, naturally fast Pokemon, or a priority user, the importance of a revenge killer on a team with any focus on offense is vital imo.
    Double01 likes this.
  22. Silvershadow234

    Silvershadow234 :]]]]]
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    Revenge killers are, obviously, crucial for any offensive team. They serve as a catch all check for p much everything, which is always incredibly useful. Some pokemon, such as durant, you have to deal solely with a choice scarfer / fast poke, as they dgaf about priority unless heavily weakened. Imo, the best two scarfers in the current metagame that can work on almost every team are rotom-c and emboar. Rotom-c has volt switch, a stellar speed stat for a scarfer, decent bulk and a decently strong STAB in the form of leaf storm, allowing it to pose a threat even without a boosting item. Rotom-c also handles most bulky waters very nicely, most electric types, and ground types-being immune to spikes also helps a ton since it switches out so much. Emboar, while it doesn't have an immunity to spikes or the same defences, does have an excellent defensive typing for ru-allowing it to switch in on most hail mons, escavalier, durant(watch out for superpower ofc) and many grass types as well. Two strong STAB's also helps to make up for the lack of boosting item, and wild charge hits almost everything it's STAB's don't eg. slowking and moltres. This allows it to run sleep talk in the last slot.
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  23. Hot N Cold

    Hot N Cold PLUTO
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    Durant @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Swarm
    EVs: 32 HP / 252 Atk / 224 Spd
    Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
    - Iron Head
    - X-Scissor
    - Superpower
    - Stone Edge / Rock Slide


    • This is a very underrated Revenger Killer such Choice Scarf user, i prefer Jolly nature to outrun base 105 + speed + choice scarf, making this Durant Adamant is slower than other scarfs more common like Manectric, Scyther or Typhlosion. And spee tie with the important Primeape, Uxie and Jynx Scarf, so Jolly is kinda necessary because is just too slow and one of the points of this set is outrun very faster mons and another scarf mons, paired this set with hazard and with wallbreaker that can beat Durant counters since this Durant is the most weakest on terms to offensive but is underrated, more consistent because Swarm, a good scarf user for sure and probably the most faster, except for Cinccino (which cant beat Durant) and Galvantula both with the right choice item and with max speed.
    Double01 likes this.
  24. Explorer

    Explorer

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    Choice-Free Revenge Killer
    We need to remember that revenge killers need not ALL pack Choice Scarf. I have one toy that is good for revenge-killing and then cleaning:

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    Hitmonlee (M) @ Fighting Gem
    Trait: Unburden
    EVs: 252 Atk/4 SpD/252 Spe
    Nature: Adamant
    -Mach Punch
    -Close Combat
    -Blaze Kick
    -Stone Edge/Earthquake

    This is one of my favorite cleaners in RU (and maybe UU too). Frail/weakened Pokemon such as Cinccino, Aerodactyl, and Manectric can be sniped off with a STAB Fighting-Gem boosted Mach Punch, and then Hitmonlee can proceed to destroy 3-4 more Pokemon with good coverage (unfortunately Sucker Punch + Unburden is illegal) and extreme attacking power. Close Combat is preferred over HJK for STAB due to better accuracy and a less annoying side effect (after Unburden Hitmonlee outspeeds almost everything anyway). Blaze Kick is an excellent coverage move with Escavalier running around everywhere. Lastly, either Stone Edge or Earthquake can be used in the last slot; it depends on teammates. Stone Edge can be used to hit Scolipede, Moltres, and Galvantula, while Earthquake is good for Typhlosion, Magmortar, Manectric, Emboar, and the occasional Flareon. Still, Stone Edge is preferred for less overlap with the other moves. Obviously attack and speed are maxed with an Adamant nature since Hitmonlee is blindingly fast after it uses up its Fighting Gem.

    The Witch Has Been Banished

    I definitely enjoyed using Nidoqueen while it was here in RU. It had a combination of good bulk, entry hazard capabilities, decent typing, good power, and excellent coverage moves (really anything that is useful to it bar maybe Grass Knot). But since it's gone, let's look at some Pokemon that fare better in RU with it out of play.

    [​IMG]
    Tangrowth was and still is a major physical wall in RU, which made it good bait for Nidoqueen, who usually carried special moves. The commonly run Fire Blast and Ice Beam would make short work of Tangrowth, and Nidoqueen had enough bulk to absorb most of Tangrowth's attacks while it worked on wearing it down. Nidoqueen's access to Toxic Spikes did not make Tangrowth's job any easier.

    [​IMG]
    Aggron is another physical wall/tank that was weak to Nidoqueen. Earth Power would easily dispatch of Aggron, and it would need a combo like Sturdy + Avalanche to get rid of Nidoqueen, and even that is shaky due to the consistent omnipresence of hazards in RU, then and now. The Choice Band set could be played around, as even if Aggron packed Earthquake or Ice Punch/Avalanche to deal with Nidoqueen, the Nidoqueen player could just switch to something like Tangrowth or Alomamola to take the blow.

    [​IMG]
    Steelix also has excellent physical defense and poor special defense, plus a typing that made itself weak to Earth Power, Focus Blast, and Fire Blast, three of Nidoqueen's common attacking options. Steelix's so-so attack made it possible for Nidoqueen to survive an Earthquake while it kept offensive pressure. When Steelix would be used as a lead (i.e. where it wanted to set up rocks), it would sometimes only set up rocks and then die to Nidoqueen's assault, if it was in the lead position. Some Steelix only ran Gyro Ball for an attacking move so it could run Toxic, which Nidoqueen is immune to.

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    Offensive Electric-types such as these three love to spam Volt Switch and gain momentum while racking up hazard damage. Besides Nidoqueen's STAB Earth Power, the Ground typing makes it immune to Volt Switch, grinding the opposing player's momentum to a halt, as he/she must now switch to avoid Earth Power or Fire Blast, giving the Nidoqueen player momentum, exactly the opposite of what was intended. The fact that all three of these Pokemon commonly ran choice items did not help, and only made prediction much more difficult.
    Double01 likes this.
  25. ScraftyIsTheBest

    ScraftyIsTheBest GHOSTS
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    Revenge killers are a vital asset to pretty much every successful competitive BW team, imo. In BW, whether it be RU, UU, OU, or any tier, Speed is king, and revenge killing is just fantastic for any team. Here's a pretty solid revenge killer that although is overlooked, is pretty good in general.

    [​IMG]

    Primeape @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Vital Spirit
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
    Jolly Nature
    - U-turn
    - Close Combat
    - Stone Edge
    - Punishment

    Primeape is actually a pretty good revenge killer imo. He has one of the highest Speed stats for revenge killing in RU, and is very useful. He has Vital Spirit to absorb sleep from Smeargle, which is neat, while it has the advantage over Emboar with its better Speed and access to U-turn, which allows him to keep momentum. He can fire Close Combats that allow him to revenge kill threats such as Cinccino, Sceptile, Aerodactyl, and a number of others, while Punishment allows it to punish (lol) Calm Mind Mesprit, which is pretty neat. It can overall serve as a great revenge killer whenever it's needed.
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