Somewhat surprisingly, I find Venusaur and Poliwrath to be the best counters to Cress, despite their obvious weakness to Psychic. The key here is speed. SDsaur can put Cress to sleep and SD up to 2hko at +2. At the very least it should force out a Cress that has CM'd up. Poli on the other hand, is able to encore CM, allowing you a chance to bring absol/rhyperior and do some damage, even if to the subsequent switch in.
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np: UU - Can't Touch This
- Thread starter reachzero
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You could say the same thing for Skarmory/Magnezone in OU. Rest/Whirlwind/Sleep Talk/Crunch with Shed Shell, if you're so worried about Dugtrio usage climbing. I don't see what your point is, because it's an eerily similar scenario.
I'm surprised no one came to mention (at least i didn't see) Magneton. His usefulness on this metagame flooded with Registeels attempting to hold Porygon back and status Moonlight Cresselia is undeniable, and it should prove its value when paired with the latter two pokés, most notably Porygon-Z, especially now that Registeel is finding itself to be forced to run both Earthquake and Iron Head, to handle Raikou and Mismagius respectively, thus finding no space for Seismic toss.
I come to mention Scyther as a decent Cresselia counter. It won't like taking CMed Psychic, Ice Beam will hurt even more, but when played correctly it can take care of it. Also, due to the fact many of the teams that run Cress are so tailored to stop its most notable counters, Absol and Drapion, Scyther has a good chance of performing a rightful sweep, as neither Hitmontop nor Dugtrio cann't stop him (Dugtrio, at least, can't trap, which is a huge plus).
On another note, even though I haven't used it myself, I think Encore Kazam could help against CM Cress too. The fact it can Syncro status back at it should help it when checking Poison/Paralysis inducing versions.
I come to mention Scyther as a decent Cresselia counter. It won't like taking CMed Psychic, Ice Beam will hurt even more, but when played correctly it can take care of it. Also, due to the fact many of the teams that run Cress are so tailored to stop its most notable counters, Absol and Drapion, Scyther has a good chance of performing a rightful sweep, as neither Hitmontop nor Dugtrio cann't stop him (Dugtrio, at least, can't trap, which is a huge plus).
On another note, even though I haven't used it myself, I think Encore Kazam could help against CM Cress too. The fact it can Syncro status back at it should help it when checking Poison/Paralysis inducing versions.
Yeah my most succesful ladder run was a Scyther team (Choice Band). There's no denying what it can do but Stealth Rock weakness is such a huge let down for such a good Pokemon.
In other stuff, I actually got a chance to try out CM Cress for the first time with dual screen supports. Cresselia is guaranteed 6 Calm Minds under this support This team is seriously not losing for some reason after I bring in Cresselia. I encourage you guys to try out Cm Cress under dual screen supports. Although the biggest dillemma I have with Cresselia is the Hidden Power selection. I stuck with Hidden Power Ground but I was left helpless against opposing Cresselia. But yeah the best spread is probably 252 Hp / 80 Def / 176 Spe at a Timid nature. Prevents SD stuff like Venusaur and Kabutops from hitting you with high powered Stone Edges or Power Whips. Also blocks status. Since I finally got around to testing Cresselia to its full extent, I'm leaning towards to early exit with this Pokemon.
In other stuff, I actually got a chance to try out CM Cress for the first time with dual screen supports. Cresselia is guaranteed 6 Calm Minds under this support This team is seriously not losing for some reason after I bring in Cresselia. I encourage you guys to try out Cm Cress under dual screen supports. Although the biggest dillemma I have with Cresselia is the Hidden Power selection. I stuck with Hidden Power Ground but I was left helpless against opposing Cresselia. But yeah the best spread is probably 252 Hp / 80 Def / 176 Spe at a Timid nature. Prevents SD stuff like Venusaur and Kabutops from hitting you with high powered Stone Edges or Power Whips. Also blocks status. Since I finally got around to testing Cresselia to its full extent, I'm leaning towards to early exit with this Pokemon.
I have been using an SD Version of it, with LO, also being my most successful team in this round. By the way, I've noticed that spinning became substantially harder in this metagame, maybe due to all these Spiritombs and Mismagius attempting to counter the Ducky Duo, to the removal of Honchrow and to the fact Double Ghost became a common strategy again, because of the surge of stall teams.
Lopunny has always been effective in each new stage of UU i've used it in, i've yet to try it in this one though but I plan to asap.
I agree, though I believe Honchkrow actually made it more difficult to spin. Well, it's not really that much harder to spin, but I think the ease of setting up Spikes has increases substantially. Choiced P-z and any Cresselia are set up bait for Froslass, it is quite easy to set up without taking much damage at all.
Nas
Banned deucer.
Your current spread is outsped by +Spe Venusaur and Kabutops, I'd go for 252 Hp/40 Def/216 Spd to outspeed them.
"You could say the same thing for Skarmory/Magnezone in OU" You could, except Skarm is actually useful for spikes, has instant recovery, and phazes threats who actually care about being phazed (cress is immune to spikes and neutral to SR). Drapion can fire off weak crunches and dies to the most common attack in the metagame. And it defeinitely cannot lose lefties, thats why even Registeel (who is MUCH more likely to be trapped) doesn't even run Shed Shell that often. There's just no comparison.
Whenever I use Registeel, I always opt for the combination of Seismic Toss and Shadow Claw. Shadow Claw allows Registeel to deal super effective hits on the ghosts and psychics that it's meant to counter, as well as countering SubCharge Rotom that try to set up on it. Seismic Toss gives Registeel a great way to take on both Raikou and Sub Magnet Rise Magneton. Seismic Toss is good for consistent damage on switch ins, and Registeel shouldn't be taking on the common 101 Sub users anyway (Azumarill, Rhyperior). The only thing you lose out on is hitting predicted Arcanine and Blaziken switches. Overall, Seismic Toss and Shadow Claw offer Registeel the best attacking combination in terms of countering what it's meant to counter.
lol
I haven't used defensive Drapion much but my impression is that it gets tons of free switches against weak hitters due to its pretty unique typing (Chansey Registeel bulky waters psychics ghosts) and spams around whirlwind with SR + spikes support. also Drapion tends to lure in bulky grounds which all despise spikes.
for those running nasty plot Toxicroak: what set are you using? I'm using Sludge Bomb + Shadow Ball + Vacuum Wave and sometimes the inability to OHKO Registeel / Steelix / Chansey is annoying, but I like Sludge Bomb for its neutrality against Venusaur + Altaria + Moltres (and similar Pokemon) as well as its tendency to... not miss.
I cosign this statement. Scyther finds itself being the MVP of my team very often, and with all the psychics hanging around, it can sweep half the time with its great speed. I use a CB with U-turn/ Bug Bite/ Quick Attack/ (Aerial Ace/ Brick Break). All 5 moves are really valuable so i switch up those last 2 moves the most.
I'm bringing it back babbyyyyyy lol. I think you know how effective it is. Just need to switch up the set and ev's a little. =)
Trick Leads everywhere. Hopefully this fad will die out soon... because I've been using it forever and now that it is common it completely throws my game outta whack.
Knock Off Donphan was pretty good to me the few times I used it. Most things that switch into him (Milotic, Venusaur, etc) really depend on their item.
Clefable with a set of Encore, Protect, Wish, and ThunderWave can effectively neuter 1/2 if not more team members from most peoples teams.
I am beginning to see some underlying potential for Pokemon in the 50-60 speed tiers. Specifically ones with Swords Dance.
To be perfectly honest, I don't enjoy this Metagame. In particular P-Z, he hits too freaking hard. I dunno...
Like I said... we should really split apart P-Z and Cress for testing. Each could have an 'express test' if need be... but should be done separately.
Knock Off Donphan was pretty good to me the few times I used it. Most things that switch into him (Milotic, Venusaur, etc) really depend on their item.
Clefable with a set of Encore, Protect, Wish, and ThunderWave can effectively neuter 1/2 if not more team members from most peoples teams.
I am beginning to see some underlying potential for Pokemon in the 50-60 speed tiers. Specifically ones with Swords Dance.
To be perfectly honest, I don't enjoy this Metagame. In particular P-Z, he hits too freaking hard. I dunno...
Like I said... we should really split apart P-Z and Cress for testing. Each could have an 'express test' if need be... but should be done separately.
Stall has defintely been the leading factor in this metagame...but there has all been 5 pokes to stall and one high offensive pokemon...It's usually dugtrio/porygon-Z/absol....the most effective teams i've seen from watching everyone else's battles has been stall...
All the dust right now is clearing and Cresselia has stood out on most stall teams and has been an easy sturdy wall to play with...I've seen PZ become most effective when the player has a complete knowledge of the opponents team and goes for a late game sweep instead of just randomly switching in and firing off tri attacks in the wild like a few days ago
Nas
Banned deucer.
My stall team uses Cress as a physical wall early-mid game and then as a CM sweeper late game when my opponents dark type/cress counter has been removed. I think I played your hail team with my offensive team earlier today...after putting some actual thought into it it's doing a lot better lol.
On my journey to the top 5, most of my views of certain Pokemon were solidified and others were changed.
Cresselia: Leaning towards "not broken". Cresselia is hard as fuck to take down, but it still loses to so many offensive threats, namely Moltres, Absol, and Drapion. Swellow + Absol is almost a foolproof counter for Cresselia without having to even prepare for it. Absol is definitely not overcentralizing >.>. On top of this, Cresselia is essentially set up bait for Froslass, who can switch in, Taunt, set up Spikes, Pain Split, and switch to Absol for an easy kill.
Porygonz: Not broken. It hurts, yes, but being locked into a normal-type attack is less than ideal most of the time. On top of this it is easily revenge kill able if it isn't Choice Scarf, and Absol, Blaziken, Hitmontop, etc revenge kill it either way.
Raikou: Undecided. I mean, I sweep (when I use it) with it easily but that's usually because other people just suck and keep Pz and non CM Cresselia in on it. It sets up on so many Pokemon and is so hard to take down, but I'm not sure if it's absolutely "broken" anymore since Cresselia can beat it. I'm still leaning towards broken. If Cresselia is deemed broken just because we follow the characteristic as a "rule", then Raikou should be as well.
Froslass. Absolutely broken; more broken than in the last metagame. This metagame is swarming with set up bait for Froslass, and the viability of Rapid Spin is becoming more and more questionable. Stall in particular has no defense for Froslass's Spikes. Spikes are almost always on the field, and they are there to stay. The one major thing that Froslass has trouble with this the omnipresence of strong Dark-types, particularly Absol, and NP Missy. However, I still strongly feel Froslass is broken.
Moltres + Swellow: When used with Froslass, they are nearly impossible to stop. Moltres in particular has 0 safe switch-ins once Spikes and SR are set up. 0! Swellow abuses Spikes with U-turn, and is a monster late game.
Absol: THE Anti-metagame Pokemon. It beats so many top threats, especially anything remotely defensive. If I'm against a stall team, I will usually sacrifice Froslass on something like Cresselia or Spiritomb after I taunt them, and simply Swords Dance and destroy the remaining members of their team without breaking a sweat. Sucker Punch works great against offense as well. The only thing really holding Absol back are fast Substitute users, who can still be beaten but they do have a decent shot of beating Absol. There are also fast priority users, like Swellow for example. Absol is just "great", it isn't anywhere near broken.
If a vote were to happen right now, I'd vote Raikou and Froslass BL, abstain on Cresselia, and vote Pz UU. Most likely anyway.
That is all for now.
Cresselia: Leaning towards "not broken". Cresselia is hard as fuck to take down, but it still loses to so many offensive threats, namely Moltres, Absol, and Drapion. Swellow + Absol is almost a foolproof counter for Cresselia without having to even prepare for it. Absol is definitely not overcentralizing >.>. On top of this, Cresselia is essentially set up bait for Froslass, who can switch in, Taunt, set up Spikes, Pain Split, and switch to Absol for an easy kill.
Porygonz: Not broken. It hurts, yes, but being locked into a normal-type attack is less than ideal most of the time. On top of this it is easily revenge kill able if it isn't Choice Scarf, and Absol, Blaziken, Hitmontop, etc revenge kill it either way.
Raikou: Undecided. I mean, I sweep (when I use it) with it easily but that's usually because other people just suck and keep Pz and non CM Cresselia in on it. It sets up on so many Pokemon and is so hard to take down, but I'm not sure if it's absolutely "broken" anymore since Cresselia can beat it. I'm still leaning towards broken. If Cresselia is deemed broken just because we follow the characteristic as a "rule", then Raikou should be as well.
Froslass. Absolutely broken; more broken than in the last metagame. This metagame is swarming with set up bait for Froslass, and the viability of Rapid Spin is becoming more and more questionable. Stall in particular has no defense for Froslass's Spikes. Spikes are almost always on the field, and they are there to stay. The one major thing that Froslass has trouble with this the omnipresence of strong Dark-types, particularly Absol, and NP Missy. However, I still strongly feel Froslass is broken.
Moltres + Swellow: When used with Froslass, they are nearly impossible to stop. Moltres in particular has 0 safe switch-ins once Spikes and SR are set up. 0! Swellow abuses Spikes with U-turn, and is a monster late game.
Absol: THE Anti-metagame Pokemon. It beats so many top threats, especially anything remotely defensive. If I'm against a stall team, I will usually sacrifice Froslass on something like Cresselia or Spiritomb after I taunt them, and simply Swords Dance and destroy the remaining members of their team without breaking a sweat. Sucker Punch works great against offense as well. The only thing really holding Absol back are fast Substitute users, who can still be beaten but they do have a decent shot of beating Absol. There are also fast priority users, like Swellow for example. Absol is just "great", it isn't anywhere near broken.
If a vote were to happen right now, I'd vote Raikou and Froslass BL, abstain on Cresselia, and vote Pz UU. Most likely anyway.
That is all for now.
Hey, jackasses, let's talk about taunt.
I think it's the #1 anti meta move atm, with all the set up sweepers running around. I think I'm done with my current team so I'll say I run 3 taunters:
Taunt/Plot Missy, who beats Cress 100% of the time.
Taunt/Subpunch Toxicroak, sets up on bulky waters (and Umbreon), but doesn't like Cress as much.
Leadzam: Taunt early, Encore late, both give me great reasons to set up.
Taunt effectively shuts down Cress, NP-Z, and all the rest, and on Croak, it allows him to Sucker Punch with impunity, which is quite nice.
Also, Absol isn't just good with SD, I use a scarf Absol as a revenge killer and it ALWAYS catches people by surprise. Because my team is weak to Moltres, I also tossed Rock Slide over Sucker Punch for a set of Night Slash/Rock Slide/Superpower/Psycho Cut and he gets ridiculous coverage and the ability to 2HKO a SpD Cress. The taunters on my team prevent T-wave.
Add to that the pure power of Specs-Z and you have quite a monster offense. The balance comes in with a Regirock to prevent me from getting easily swept by Swellow and the like and acts as a check to Raikou.
Also, as an act of desparation (like if X walls your team and you can late game sweep with it gone, etc) tossing Hyper Beam over Trick on Z lets you remove one threat from the game, straight up. Specs Adaptability STAB Hyper Beam is behind only Lickilicky's CB Explosion and Specs Water Spout from Kyogre in terms of pure power. I use it often to remove a well-played Cress or a threatening sweeper that thinks they can set up on me, like CM Raikou. Sure it means Z is probably done, or if you didn't scout out their team and they have NP-Z in the wings, you're probably done, but hey, it's a situational move.
Oh yeah, suspects list:
Froslass- UU (you guys way overestimate her, as you have consistently done).
P-z - UU: Like NP Missy and other special sweepers, has checks, counters, and is vunerable to priority.
Moltres- UU: It can be stopped despite the theorymon.
Raikou: On the fence: It's really easy to sweep with it, no doubt, but is it too easy?
Cress: BL: I have 2 absolute checks for it on my team and a well played cress STILL walls me all day long.
I think it's the #1 anti meta move atm, with all the set up sweepers running around. I think I'm done with my current team so I'll say I run 3 taunters:
Taunt/Plot Missy, who beats Cress 100% of the time.
Taunt/Subpunch Toxicroak, sets up on bulky waters (and Umbreon), but doesn't like Cress as much.
Leadzam: Taunt early, Encore late, both give me great reasons to set up.
Taunt effectively shuts down Cress, NP-Z, and all the rest, and on Croak, it allows him to Sucker Punch with impunity, which is quite nice.
Also, Absol isn't just good with SD, I use a scarf Absol as a revenge killer and it ALWAYS catches people by surprise. Because my team is weak to Moltres, I also tossed Rock Slide over Sucker Punch for a set of Night Slash/Rock Slide/Superpower/Psycho Cut and he gets ridiculous coverage and the ability to 2HKO a SpD Cress. The taunters on my team prevent T-wave.
Add to that the pure power of Specs-Z and you have quite a monster offense. The balance comes in with a Regirock to prevent me from getting easily swept by Swellow and the like and acts as a check to Raikou.
Also, as an act of desparation (like if X walls your team and you can late game sweep with it gone, etc) tossing Hyper Beam over Trick on Z lets you remove one threat from the game, straight up. Specs Adaptability STAB Hyper Beam is behind only Lickilicky's CB Explosion and Specs Water Spout from Kyogre in terms of pure power. I use it often to remove a well-played Cress or a threatening sweeper that thinks they can set up on me, like CM Raikou. Sure it means Z is probably done, or if you didn't scout out their team and they have NP-Z in the wings, you're probably done, but hey, it's a situational move.
Oh yeah, suspects list:
Froslass- UU (you guys way overestimate her, as you have consistently done).
P-z - UU: Like NP Missy and other special sweepers, has checks, counters, and is vunerable to priority.
Moltres- UU: It can be stopped despite the theorymon.
Raikou: On the fence: It's really easy to sweep with it, no doubt, but is it too easy?
Cress: BL: I have 2 absolute checks for it on my team and a well played cress STILL walls me all day long.
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