I wasn't around when you guys banned permaweather - was there even an option to ban just the evasion abilities and not the weather in the previous Suspect Test?
Many people such as myself proposed this before B2W2, before being told of Stoutland's alleged "counters" (in which people just named lists of every Ghost, Rock, and Steel type without offering any discussion at all as to how all of them were effective against Stoutland).And if Sand is broken because of just Stoutland, we should probably just BL Stoutland, no?
So "I don't like it" is the criteria needed to ban something now? The idea that a group of people would ban something they all agree isn't broken just because it pisses them off really bothers me.Sand was not broken at all, nor was it claimed to be. It was banned because, in short, it would make a more fun metagame.
Because it isn't really perfect? You still have stuff like Tornadus-I who can completely wreck teams at the blink of an eye, forcing you to use *shudder* Ambipom to check it, albeit Torn-I has a few (emphasis on few) other checks who are less stupefying for me, such as Zapdos.
If senate is smart, they leave UU the way it is for now. Why ruin a tier tip-toeing the line of perfection?
I'm with this guy... Sand Veil was never particularly the issue of sand, snow cloak and hail on the otherhand was. As UU did not particularly attempt nor have abusers barring Cacturne, but he still never made the cut for UU, probably Gligar to an extent but he's not that unmanageable and at best would only lay on SR (as compared to hail and froslass' layers of spike + TW). The votes against Sand Veil sentiment was just that evasion was uncompetitive but really from my experience I never particularly cried for uncompetitiveness from say Sandslash, Cacturne, or Gligar it was such a far cry from what real evasion abuse looked like from the previous round with hail... Rather you had far more reliable mons that could take advantage of sand, albeit quite limited, in that what you had was Rhyperior/Stoutland/Nidoking/Flygon + Roserade (to deal with bulky waters) that could fit much better in a team than say Sandslash or Cacturne (again Cacturne wasn't a bad choice on Sand just that between those three especially Stoutland the enemy teams were nicely cleaned off with hazards+toxic spikes+sand stream). Still overall the cries against sand weren't so much about evasion as how it limited team building as the general mons you'd be playing around with were the aforementioned.
If senate is smart, they leave UU the way it is for now. Why ruin a tier tip-toeing the line of perfection?
Even with the ban on Sand Veil, nothing fundamental has changed that would justify a retest; of the four votes that were in favor of banning Sandstream, only one even mentioned Sand Veil. The strain that Sandstream put on team building and the metagame as a whole was the main reason behind its ban, and that part hasn't changed. If anything, those effects would be even more profound now that Stoutland received Superpower and we have our very own Excadrill.
I think it's worth a test.don't bring up the old votes to justify your arguments--use current data instead.
I'm going to agree with this. As much as I want all permanent weathers to return to UU, I get the feeling people would just whine about them and everything would be a colossal mess, moreso than I already view UU to be.Sun is out of the question.
And other things too.Don't mind him, he's against anything that will see Diglett rise to power >_>
Arguments in bold, just making sure a reality check is in place while otherwise agreeing for the most part with what is being said by Pokemazter.Again, to be frank about this, UU is simply at its best right now. It's got a wide variety of abusable sweepers, its fair share of defensive tanks, and enough of the other elements to keep each individual match interesting.
The reason UU is interesting is because Gen V OU is so broken people are only willing to use some Pokes and let others drop all too willingly. And UU's "balancedness" is starting to corrode as a result.
Going back on past bans, such as unbanning Hail, Sun, and Sand, will lead to a rapid centralization of the metagame, much like what happened in OverUsed when Black and White initially came out.
It would also lead to the metagame being more dynamic, in a way. Whether these dynamics actually help the tier any is what would be debated, and I agree that releasing the permanent weather will just wind up being a mixed bag again.
Those weather effects absolutely require you build your team to beat them, which leaves some teambuilding aspects, such as the more frail sweepers - Weavile, Honchkrow, Azelf, and others like them - off the table as they cannot afford to be taking the passive damage brought by Hail or Sand.
This I can agree with. Some sweepers despise residual damage from Hail or Sand, thereby making those weathers somewhat annoying. However, balanced metagames in the past have had permanent sand before. Two previous generations' worth of it, to be exact.
Sun on its own is extremely unhealthy without a permanent way of setting Rain up in the lower tiers, as the number of Chlorophyll users and overpowered Fire-types this side of BL gives it way too much to work with. The likes of Shiftry, Sawsbuck, Victini, Darmanitan, and Victreebel would quickly snap the metagame in half, which really isn't worth it.
While this is agreed upon, you also forget some tanks, such as Cresselia and Umbreon, have their reliable recovery being stronger in the Sun on top of all that. I might have to make a defensive Sun team as part of my next Dark Horse Project in OU to destroy this perception of "it only benefits hyper offense" using Hope.
Hail, I'll admit, isn't to be as feared as it once was. Mamoswine and Kyurem were what made it so dangerous, and with them out of the picture, won't be as much of a problem. However, unbanning hail will lead to an onslaught of "you banned Snover, so why not ban Hippopotas or Vulpix" discussions and other false sympathies towards the weather starters.
As much as I want eternal winter to cover all the Gen V tiers, I'm going to agree that releasing Hail would set a garbage precedent; in the case, it would deliver chicanery in the other weather NFEs being released.
Sand, we all know will be a bugger to handle, as things like Sandslash, Stoutland, Cacturne, Gligar, and Rhyperior all of a sudden become extraordinarily difficult to handle while retaining momentum for your team.
Gligar is no longer a problem, neither is Cacturne. Unless you mean Immunity Gligar and Water Absorb Cacturne making teambuilding still more difficult to counter stuff reliably, then of course. As for Sandslash, Stoutland, and Rhyperior, though - you'd be right in that regard.
Weather is unhealthy in this tier, no matter how you look at it. My question to those asking for weather to be retested, is why do you want to disrupt the tier so badly? If you want to play an organised tier, play OU, but don't come around asking for the same styles of play in a completely different tier.
While I don't agree with the attitude, I can agree that UU is slightly better without permanent weather in it.
There's a reason as to why BW2 UU is so comparable to DPP OU, and I'd like to see it stay that way.
The irony in this statement is that permanent Sand and permanent Hail were allowed in DPP OU. There are also several contrasts, mainly in part to how a majority of the DPP OU Pokemon aren't actually in B2W2 UU. I'd like to see something like Infernape drop to UU before the comparisons start, for example.
However, UU is a much more comfortable tier for me to play in compared to the likes of OU and RU. Please don't free anything, as there is still some banning to do before the tier is perfect.
Thats what unbanning sun and imposing a Chlorophyll+Drought ban does. Rhyperior gets 2HKOd by Jolly Victini in the Sun, by a Fire-type move. One of the bulkiest of all Rock-types should never be 2HKOd by a Fire-type move, especially when Rhyperior would be switching into that V-Create. We really don't need that in this metagame, which would go to show that there would be no safe switch-ins to Choice Band Victini, which was one of the biggest issues surrounding Drought Vulpix during its last stint in UU. Life Orb Darmanitan would play a lot the same;Masara Damage Calculator said:Detailed Result:
252 Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs 248 HP/0 Def Rhyperior: 50.58% - 59.58%
However, Darmanitan is free to use Earthquake after Flare Blitz, decimating whatever remains of Rhyperior's HP stat. Then there's Chandelure, who'd finally have a way to get past any Snorlax unfortunate enough to take enough prior damage;Masara Damage Calculator said:Detailed Result:
252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Darmanitan Flare Blitz vs 248 HP/0 Def Rhyperior: 48.04% - 56.58%
Either way we look at this, Sun is too unhealthy for the metagame. It makes some of the most powerful attackers in the tier all the more dangerous, literally leaving no checks to things such as Victini or Darmanitan.Masara Damage Calculator said:Detailed Result:
252 SpAtk Choice Specs Chandelure (+SpAtk) Fire Blast vs 144 HP/176 SpDef Thick Fat Snorlax (+SpDef) : 37.42% - 44.27%