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NU Viability Ranking

Discussion in 'BW NU' started by Annoyer, Oct 10, 2012.

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  1. MMF

    MMF Give me the strength to part this sea

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    I'll go ahead and respond to this since no one else has.


    1. Probopass: I think Probopass is right where he needs to be in the B tier. And here's why: (Reserved for Pokemon that are outstanding in the NU metagame and can sweep, wall, or support the majority of the tier. These Pokemon require less support than other Pokemon to be used effectively and have few flaws that can be overlooked when compared to their outstanding trait). This to me does not describe Probopass at all. He does not wall the majority of the tier and does not have the capability to sweep at the drop of a hat. Probopass is still a good pokemon but he has a few noticeable flaws. And thats what the B tier is for.

    2. Emolga: To be honest, Emolga shouldn't go anywhere either. Its a less than mediocre Pokemon that really doesn't do anything that something like Rotom-S or Rotom-F doesn't already do. Its weak and needs Charge Beam boosts to do anything. Its fine right where it is. You can try and make a case for it but I don't think this spot will change.

    3. Illumise: She's basically the exact same as Volbeat. So she should stay in the exact same tier as Volbeat. There isn't really any difference between the two.

    4. Mothim: Ok so yeah move this up to at least D


    Edit: Oh lol they aren't in the same tier. Well they almost should be then since they're the exact same bar Tail Glow. Why the hell was Mothim not in a tier? Its nearly the exact same as Butterfree and Masquerain except for abilities.
  2. Amarillo

    Amarillo
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    The thing with Illumise is that it's not mentioned anywhere and is in the E tier.

    Well yeah no Tail Glow pass somewhat sucks but idk as MMF said they're kinda the same thing.
  3. Elegy96

    Elegy96

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    Mothim and Emolga are in E tier too, and while I know they're not fantastic Pokémon, they should be higher than that. Especially Emolga, I've used him to decent effect in the past.
  4. Worldtour

    Worldtour aka Swamp-Rocket
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    My post about Simisage got completely ignored, but I still want to nominate if for D-tier for the same reasons as last time.
  5. JirachiCelebiMew

    JirachiCelebiMew

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    Eh, Citro and ium, you guys are right. Lickilicky does deserve to remain in A-rank. All of your points have proved me pretty damn wrong. Also, I have never seen SubSD Lickilicky in the 5 months of competitive battling I've done, on both PO and PS!, but it sounds like a nice set.
  6. Doron

    Doron

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    I'm late to the discussion, but why is Absol S-Rank? I've never gone up against an Absol or used an Absol that's done anything effective in the match besides give the opponent's walls opportunities to set up rocks.

    Also, Cinccino is pretty boss. I'd recommend her for S-Rank by virtue of her hard-hitting STAB, amazing speed by NU standards and great coverage. She gets walled by steel types, but they're either rare or garbage in NU.
  7. /B/utterfree

    /B/utterfree

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    lol

    I guess you run into a lot of amateurs? Absol should be Taunting SR users, and then demolishing them with Superpower or STAB. Absol's base Attack and coverage options allow it to break through NU's walls. Absol can even use Fire Blast (Although with a mediocre base Special Attack, it might not be too great)!

    Also, the Steel-types in NU are far from garbage. Walling Cinccino's main STAB quadruply isn't "garbage," especially not since Cinccinos are almost always Choiced or otherwise suffering from Life Orb recoil. Then you just get paralyzed from Probopass' T-wave or have to switch out.
  8. Amarillo

    Amarillo
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    Absol shouldn't really be taunting....

    Superpower is strong enough for most Rocks other than like, Regirock.
  9. /B/utterfree

    /B/utterfree

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    Oh. Oops. Still, Absol can handle SR setters pretty neatly. Its main focus is sweeping, which is why it's in S Rank in the first place.
  10. Doron

    Doron

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    Absol can barely touch Amoonguss or Alomomola, and SP has a nasty recoil effect. Cinccino can still hit Probopass / Bastiodon / Lairon for neutral with Bullet Seed.

    Also, ALL NU Steel-types are garbage. All of them. Even the best (Probopass) stinks.

    Also also, Alomomola is B-Rank. This is an outrage. Alomomola has consistently performed on every single one of the balanced teams I've used it on. Even when uninvested in sp.def it can take a SE HP and effectively wish-pass or toxic stall in a pinch against weak to mid power special attackers. Between its' huge HP, great typing and Regenerator it's a solid A-Rank pokemon.

    Amoonguss is pretty swell as well, I'd think that it'd be S-Rank, but then again I've never had any issues dealing with it (yay Sap-Sipper Miltank).

    And Lickilicky is above Miltank in ranking. I don't even.
  11. Raseri

    Raseri musharna fan
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    The latter half of this statement is incredibly untrue. There are actually quiet a few usable Steel-types in NU. There are defensive ones like Probopass and Bastiodon, who use their sheer bulk in order to wall the opposition. They are also the best Cinccino counters there are, as all Cinccy can do is use a pathetically weak Wake up Slap.

    There is also Klang, who although not liked by some, is capable of using its great bulk and access to Shift Gear to set up on Cinccino without difficulty, allowing it to rip through frail teams.

    Mawile is another good steel-type, and is without a doubt the most versatile one. Mawile has access to many great abilities that allow it to function, intimidate allows it to be a handy supporter, with access to Stealth Rock, Seismic Toss and Pain Split to chip away at the opposition. Mawile can also run an offensive Swords Dance set with Sheer Force, becoming quite difficult to wall after a boost(its not like Alomomola can actually threaten it back). There is also Baton Pass Mawile, who is guaranteed to be on any decent baton pass chain.

    Finally there is Lairon, who kind of combines the traits of all the different steel-types. It has the bulk and power to be both offensive and defensive, with Head Smash to rip through teams. I don't have as much to say about Lairon, its a good Pokemon that is underutilized.

    So before saying that all Steel-types are garbage, I'd recommend using them a bit more, as many of them are actually quite good in the current metagame!
  12. DTC

    DTC ˢᵉʳᶦᵒᵘˢ
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    You make a lot of claims without backing them up. Your opinion holds no water if you fail to back it up with sufficient evidence.

    What do you think is so fantastic about Miltank? Why does the fact that Lickilicky is higher on the tier list than Miltank appall you so much? You seem to have very strong opinions -- surely backing them up with proper evidence is an easy task for you.
  13. Vintage Books

    Vintage Books

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    Your other points have already been touched on but I'd like to say that just because a Pokemon has counters/checks doesn't mean it can't be S-rank. Absol is powerful and can generally rip though 4-5 of the opponents team no prob. With Power, coverage and considerable speed it is an excellent Pokemon and people who do not prepare for it will definatley suffer. Just because it can't touch amoonguss doesn't mean it's bad.
  14. Doron

    Doron

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    Absol is very frail and 75 base speed isn't impressive at all, not even by NU standards. It gets outsped by Cinccino, Zangoose, Braviary, Gardevoir, Rotom-A... Watchog.

    It's most reliable STAB has a rather pitiful 70 BP. Relicanth hits harder than that (fuck yeah, Relicanth). I agree that CB Sucker Punch is a real gem for picking apart offensive teams that don't carry substitute or a fighting type, but I've used Absol before and I've never had it pull its weight.


    I feel that Miltank is superior to Lickilicky because of its abilities (Thick Fat, Scrappy and Sap-Sipper are all fantastic, Own Tempo, Cloud Nine and Oblivious aren't as useful). It also has reliable recovery that doesn't eat up two moveslots and a fantastic base 100 speed. 100 speed outruns Zangoose, Braviary, Gardevoir, Rotom-A, Absol... Watchog.

    It's been a few weeks since I've laddered so Sap-Sipper Miltank may be less useful now than it used to be if Amoonguss usage has decreased. If Ludicolo usage has increased as I've been led to believe it has then I suppose that Cloud Nine may give Lickilicky a more important niche, but it still lacks Miltank's ability to pick off wounded offensive pokemon with a STAB Body Slam or Return without taking damage beforehand.


    Lairon can hit fairly hard with Head Smash and Probopass is pretty bulky and has some nice movepool options, it's true. Perhaps I spoke too soon, I'm just used to having a mindset where anything with a Rock / Steel typing being garbage (including Aggron in RU). Klang would be a much more impressive option if it had better coverage.

    tl;dr Absol needs a better STAB and is slow, Miltank is faster than Lickilicky and has abilities that I've found to be more useful, I spoke too soon about the steel types.
  15. Geoboy2000

    Geoboy2000

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    Just wow. Never noticed it got wish. After skimming the tierlist I only found Zangoose and Cinccino (LO/CB) who can reliably 2hit Shelgon (PS: only on the physical side of course) without extended setup. I still doubt it belongs in the same tier as Alomomola.
  16. IceSpade

    IceSpade

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    @Geoboy2000
    Yeah, it has wish, although Alomomola gives it competition in that department. What it has though is different typing meaning different resistances, access to Roar meaning it isn't set-up bait to a lot of Pokemon, and as I said, a single weakness to ice.

    Also taking the opportunity to quote my previous post:
  17. Django

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    The thing about Shelgon though (and the reason it doesn't get much use) is that is has 0 recovery outside of Wish. This means it is much harder to use as a pivot, since every time it comes in it has to use Wish to actually keep itself alive. Other walls like Tangela and Alomomola can very easily come in, tank a hit, then switch straight back out while the opponent does, keeping themselves healthy and maintaining momentum at the same time - something Shelgon cannot do.
  18. Vintage Books

    Vintage Books

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    Believe me I have used a lot of Miltank and it is one of my favorite Pokemon.

    The reason Lickilicky is higher than Miltank is because it is better at a support/utility role than Miltank is, and Miltank's offensive sets are pretty much outclassed, by a lot of pokemon.

    Here is what both Miltank and Lickilicky have and I hope to prove to you that they are in the right spots.

    Miltank (support/utility):
    95/105/70 bulk
    Option of running a combo of Stealth Rock, Heal Bell, Milk Drink/Wish, Thunder Wave/Toxic, Seismic Toss/Body Slam
    Thick Fat
    Base 100 speed

    Lickilicky:
    110/95/95 Bulk
    Can run everything Miltank can except stealth rocks (In a tier where use of Bastio/Probo/Lairon/Regirock is mandatory, this isn't that much of a problem)
    Can pass larger wishes
    Cloud Nine (Arguably more useful thank thick fat in the tier with the likes of Ludicolo running around)
    Can't be set up on if it has dragon tail

    Now here you might be thinking "BUT MILTANK CAN RUN SAP SIPPER SET WHICH IS STRONG!!!"

    Offensive Miltank is an ok set. 80 base attack which is somewhat lack luster and it's excellent 100 base speed.

    On paper this may seem like a good idea, but the sap sipper thing works once, and its not like anything with a scarf is either going to rip though miltank or force it out, meaning it pretty much has one chance (against a smart player) to utilize its attack boost, before being forced out. Even so, if you do get a chance to make more use of the boost, it is still underpowered and just isn't as strong as the likes of Emboar or Sawk who would probably have no boosts.
    Miltank is also completely walled by ghost types such as haunter or misdreavus, unless she forsakes the possibility of a boost and uses scrappy. If you opt to use punishment haunter can sub disable yo ass and you can still only 3hko missy (if you have the boost, without its a 4hko) and she can just will-o-wisp you.

    Pretty much, Miltank is outclassed in an offensive role by basically every physical threat in S and A tier, and just isn't as good a support as Lickilicky, Gardevoir or Alomomola and she just doesn't belong with them and in my opinion fits in quite well in the B tier.
  19. Doron

    Doron

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    Lickilicky has to run Wish / Protect for recovery, and having to use protect so often gives your opponent free switches or set up turns.

    The set that I usually run on Miltank is
    Miltank @ Leftovers
    252 hp / 4 def / 252+ spd
    - Body Slam
    - Punishment
    - Milk Drink
    - Heal Bell
    This gives Miltank good bulk especially when combined with leftovers and Milk Drink. Body Slam allows me to fish for paralysis as well as outspeed and pick off frailer offensive pokemon and Miltank also has access to Punishment which is severely underrated in this metagame. Rather than merely phazing out bulky Psychics like Lickilicky, Miltank has the option to simply outright OHKO them with a powerful Punishment, even when uninvested in attack (or if they're a VERY bulky, 2HKO them before they have an option to heal up).

    I don't use Sap Sipper to sweep with Miltank. Rather, I use it as a pseudo sleep absorber and to wall grass-type attackers. I made the set when Amoonguss usage was sky-high, so having a pokemon that was immune to practically everything Amoonguss could do except the rare Sludge Bomb or Toxic was incredibly useful, but between Heal Bell and Milk Drink even poison moves were easy to wall.

    Lickilicky is forced to run Wish / Protect / Heal Bell to be an effective team supporter. This prevents it from running both Dragon Tail and Body Slam at the same time, preventing it from being a parashuffler and giving your opponent the opportunity to set up substitutes in Lickilicky's face if you only run D tail.

    Lickilicky is like Blissey, Miltank is like Latias. Neither pokemon outclasses the other, they fill different roles. The extra speed is just too useful to pass up in the NU tier for me, so I vote that Miltank (and Alomomola?) should be A-Rank alongside Lickilicky.

    I'd also make the argument that Ursaring is worthy of B rank or even A rank. It's significantly bulkier than Zangoose and has the same Facade / Close Combat / Dark coverage, but with Jolly and the boost from Quick Feet it outspeeds everything up to positive natured Base 95's (including Haunter and Zangoose). In fact, even with Adamant it outspeeds Zangoose after Quick Feet. It loses some power from the loss of Guts and doesn't get Quick Attack to prevent revenge killing, but retains Swords Dance so after a turn of setup the difference in power is negligible.

    It isn't S-Rank material because it needs to setup to hit as hard as Zangoose does off the bat, but with a 140 BP STAB move it still isn't easy to tank hits.
  20. Alfalfa

    Alfalfa Banned deucer.

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    I think that Natu should be C Rank because it is an excellent supporter with its ability in Magic Bounce. On the team that I was experimenting with in NU before I got perma-banned, Natu was an excellent at just reflecting Spikes, Toxic, and Taunt, and has no problems healing off Rock Blast from Garbodor. Also, Natu can just heal off Gunk Shot or Rock Blast with Roost. This is the personal set I have been using:

    Show Hide

    [​IMG]
    Natu @ Eviolite
    Trait: Magic Bounce
    EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SDef
    Bold Nature
    - Roost
    - Thunder Wave / Toxic
    - Reflect / Night Shade
    - U-Turn
  21. Amarillo

    Amarillo
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    Ok... assuming that "252 spd" stands for special defense...

    The thing is, you say as if having a choice of Body Slam / Dragon Tail is a really shitty thing: it isn't. That's because otherwise Miltank can't choose between them! You discredit Lickilicky for being unable to deal with Substitute setup users, but so is your Miltank. Even more significant is the fact that your Miltank takes 45% minimum from Life Orb Hydro Pump from Ludicolo, which means a high likelyhood of 2HKO with SR up. And the same move from Samurott will cleanly 2HKO. Ludicolo, on the other hand, takes 40% maximum: this means that even with SR you can easily wall the prominent special attackers.

    Using Miltank as a special wall is a bad idea in my opinion, especially when you lose to the very things you are attempting to counter. If we are to extend on your simile, it's like trying to use a special wall that cannot switch into neither Latios nor Rotom-W without a great chance of 2HKO in OU.

    As with Natu, you can't prevent SR with it. Mainly because of its weakness to Rock-type moves, and it's a bad idea to switch onto Carracosta / Golem what have you. You have to play a stupid prediction game just to keep SR away. The SR weakness after it is set up makes it really hard to repeatedly switch in. It gives free turns for Skuntank / Musharna etc and most importantly is unable to check most Fighting-types like all psychics are required to.

    The thing is Natu is really predictable, and no one will really use bouncable moves unless he / she is really really sure that they got a proper read on you.
  22. Doron

    Doron

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    It does not. 252+ speed.

    As I said, Miltank performs like Latias. And it can easily break through substitutes due to either STAB Body Slam (or Return if you don't want the paralysis chance and would rather extra power which is, believe me, definitely noticeable) or, for bulky Psychics / Ghosts, Punishment.
  23. Amarillo

    Amarillo
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    If so, makes my argument so much easier! The problem with 252 HP Miltank with no investment elsewhere is that it is way too easy to kill. With physical attacks or special attacks. Whatever. You will get 2HKOed by almost anything on the switch unless you are switching into a very, very defensive team. You are really restricted to switching into things like Amoonguss / Alomomola, curing status with Heal Bell. Sadly you really can't threaten them either, so they can just keep toxicing you until your Heal Bell runs out.

    Lickilicky Body Slam can do the same that Miltank's Body Slam does. Except, Miltank doesn't get a phazing move. It's just more options.... I don't understand how Lickilicky's tragic flaw is more options...

    And this comparison with Latias is really fruitless... lol
  24. Vintage Books

    Vintage Books

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    I'd also like to say that your set seems rather awkward. I have played a lot of Miltank in the past and if you want to use a set like this you are much better off to just switch to scrappy for ghosts and run earthquake. With only punishment + stab you have no way to hit steels or anything that resists normal and is neutral for dark. 80 base attack with no investment is quite weak and you are probably better off running toxic or protect (with wish over milk drink) instead of punishment to better support the team. Miltank is pretty much an awkward Pokemon who is outclassed in most of the roles it can perform and strange hybrids (like your set) are just bad.

    Also of note that if you win with something on the ps ladder doesn't mean it's good because most of the people on there suck.
  25. Doron

    Doron

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    Lickilicky's support set is Wish / Protect / Heal Bell / Dtail or Body Slam, it can't have both. That makes it limited. Mew has plenty of options, that doesn't change the fact that it only has 4 moveslots. Same goes for Lickilicky, you can't argue that it has both Body Slam AND a phazing move if it has to choose one or the other.

    Also, Miltank is not "2HKOed by almost anything on the switch". Max attack adamant Torterra's Earthquake only does 46% to 252 / 4 Miltank, failing to 2HKO with leftovers even factoring in rocks (and that's with two absolute max damage rolls). So long as Miltank has at least 60% hp switching into Torterra it is guaranteed to be able to outstall it with Milk Drink. In the same scenario, specially defensive Lickilicky would get 2HKOed by Wood Hammer and would not be able to outspeed a weakened Torterra to take it out with Body Slam.

    And I think that the comparison to Latias is rather apt. They're both fast pokemon that can pick off other "fast" pokemon (Latias takes out unboosted Salamence and Hydreigon, Miltank takes out Zangoose and Braviary) with reliable instant recovery (recover / milk drink) and good bulk and support options that act as pivots on defensive teams.

    No, you're not better off running Scrappy because then you lose Sap Sipper, which is one of the selling points in a metagame with many prevalent grass type threats. Also, I'm arguing that the immunity that Sap Sipper gives is the useful part, not the attack boost. Sure, the extra attack is useful, but it's not make-or-break on a defensive set.

    My set is not "just bad", it's consistently performed very effectively on every NU team I've put it on (I've gotten to fourth place on the PS! ladder and I've won [once.] against Zebraiken, but you're right there are a lot of casual NU players on the PS! ladder). As far as Miltank not having any options to hit steel types, I've yet to see a Lickilicky run Fire Punch on a support set to deal with steels and that doesn't seem to hurt its' viability.
    (Edit: my Miltank is a utility pokemon, not a wall or a sweeper, please don't get confused)

    Lickilicky does not "outclass" Miltank, they perform different roles. I know that Lickilicky is the better special wall and the better weather check. My argument isn't that Lickilicky is garbage, my argument is that Miltank is A-Rank due to its versatility, durability, decent power (for a defensive poke), reliable instant recovery and great base speed.
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