The meta has been flooded with knock off. The number of new abusers is relatively small. Diggersby is the only notable OU mon that got it IIRC, and he might not even really want to run it (if he does, it's almost solely because **** gengar). Not much is going to change in that respect.
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Other ORAS Egg/Tutor Moves + General Theorymon Thead
- Thread starter Aragorn the King
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Low Kick deals with Exca, KyuB and the blobs quite well.
Yes. Precisely if you want to use physical attacks
The point is that Greninja has no need to go purely physical to be able to hit them, it should still just be a special sweeping set with a physical move teched onto it, aka a mixed set.
Going back to your initial post: no, Ice Punch is still not worth running, because it is substantially weaker than Ice Beam against all of its targets, most notably Landorus-T, Mega Pinsir, and Dragonite. There is almost no reason to consider Ice Punch at all.
Sorry if I'm wrong mate, but isn't the standard AV Azu running 240 HP EVs?
If that's the case, surely Ninja would need to invest to hit the OHKO..? (On my phone so can't run calcs).
OT: Physical Greninja may be better but it still isn't touching Special. It's been said a million times over, low BP will let it down. Gunk Shot will be run on mixed though. Should be pretty successful - or at least looks it on paper. Although...
"The attack of Greninja missed!!"
The bulkiest standard spread of Azu I've seen is 228 HP (CB Azu), but the difference is still not that much.
0 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 228 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 390-460 (97.9 - 115.5%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
0 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 390-460 (97.2 - 114.7%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
Easy OHKO after Stealth Rock, or even Sandstorm.
Also, Hydro Pump has the same accuracy as Gunk Shot, and people are perfectly fine with Hydro since it provides the necessary power (which by extension also makes Gunk Shot worth it).
On an unrelated note, Low Kick Greninja also allows Greninja to do something against Kyurem-Black (OHKO after SR), Empoleon (2HKO), and Chansey (3HKO). Although they are somewhat less relevant than the Fairies that check Ninja, that's still something to keep in mind. Ninja can hit literally whatever it damn well pleases :/
Punchshroom, JMach, Greninja only needs 40 Atk EVs with a neutral nature to OHKO Azu with Gunk Shot. 240 HP is standard for AV Azu, 16 HP / 240 SpDef is ok but it takes away from her physical bulk, which is why many opt for the former spread. Either way Azu isn't a switch in to ninja anymore, or any fairy for that matter. See my post on the first page for the full set.
Mega Absol can run Knock Off and Play Rough on the same set now, allowing it to not rely on Superpower weakening itself over time.
Absol @ Absolite
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Sucker Punch
- Knock Off
- Play Rough
Fairy compliments Dark much better from a synergy perspective anyway. After an SD Knock Off 2HKOs pretty much anything on stall, while Sucker Punch allows it to take on anything over it's already fast 115 base speed. Even if you can't find a window to set-up, unboosted STAB Sucker Punch and Knock Off still have uses against faster and slower teams respectively. It does have issues with Talonflame, Scarf Lando-T, and Unaware Clefable (and a few things I'm probably forgetting), but SD Absol could see a revival in the next few months.
Absol @ Absolite
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Sucker Punch
- Knock Off
- Play Rough
Fairy compliments Dark much better from a synergy perspective anyway. After an SD Knock Off 2HKOs pretty much anything on stall, while Sucker Punch allows it to take on anything over it's already fast 115 base speed. Even if you can't find a window to set-up, unboosted STAB Sucker Punch and Knock Off still have uses against faster and slower teams respectively. It does have issues with Talonflame, Scarf Lando-T, and Unaware Clefable (and a few things I'm probably forgetting), but SD Absol could see a revival in the next few months.
It is actually. I don't see why everyone is trying to make physical greninja work when the special one is already dirty enough to be played like this. You can swap a move for Gunk shot but going full physical is pointless and just a "oh look at me i'm playing a different set! #metagameinnovator" imo.
Please lets not start another debate about physical Greninja. We're trying to optimize and fully special or mixed sets are the clear choices in that sense
You can't be fucking serious. No one's going to take you seriously if you purposefully ignore calcs.
I know this wasn't aimed at me, but I used the 16/240 spread because that's what the calculator defaulted to. 40 Attack EVs aren't even necessary in my opinion because uninvested Timid/Naive will still OHKO 240 HP after Stealth Rock (and Naive does 97% minimum anyway).
0- Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 351-413 (87.5 - 102.9%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO (guaranteed after Stealth Rock)
0 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 390-460 (97.2 - 114.7%) -- 75% chance to OHKO (guaranteed after Stealth Rock)
Add ttar to that Low Kick list btw, which could before tank any of gren's hits and ohko back now can't anymore
After thinking about it a bit and doing some calcs, physically based Greninja might not be totally unviable. I am thinking a moveset of Power-Up Punch / Gunk Shot / Low Kick / Ice Beam, max Atk / max Spe with a Naive nature. The good thing with this set is that it has the potential to 2HKO most Greninja checks and counters with PuP + right move, meaning it is much harder to play around. The bad thing is that you your strongest move has worse offensive coverage (Gunk Shot vs Hydro Pump) and that Jirachi, Slowbro, Mega Slowbro and Doublade are soft / hard counters. Here are the calcs btw:
Slowbro and mega Slowbro can also be 2HKO/3HKOed by +1 Gunk Shot, but they have Thunder Wave, so unlike other bulky Water-types, they don't need to rely on a 30% chance to cripple you. Still, Slowbro and Mega Slowbro are not hard counters, that tittle is reserved only for Jirachi and Doublade.
- 252 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Power-Up Punch vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 182-218 (28.3 - 33.9%)
- +1 252 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Kick (60 BP) vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 408-484 (63.5 - 75.3%)
- 252 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Power-Up Punch vs. 252 HP / 212+ Def Rotom-W: 51-60 (16.7 - 19.7%)
- +1 252 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 212+ Def Rotom-W: 220-259 (72.3 - 85.1%)
- 252 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Power-Up Punch vs. 232 HP / 0 Def Mega Venusaur: 29-35 (8 - 9.7%)
- +1 252 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 232 HP / 0 Def Mega Venusaur: 257-304 (71.5 - 84.6%)
- 252 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Power-Up Punch vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 94-112 (26.7 - 31.8%)
- +1 252 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Kick (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 346-408 (98.2 - 115.9%)
- -1 252 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Power-Up Punch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Gyarados: 27-34 (6.8 - 8.6%)
- 252 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Gyarados: 250-294 (63.4 - 74.6%)
- 252 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Power-Up Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Empoleon: 151-182 (40.5 - 48.9%)
- +1 252 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Power-Up Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Empoleon: 229-273 (61.5 - 73.3%) Leftovers recovery
- 252 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Kyurem-B: 460-541 (117.6 - 138.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
- 252 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Power-Up Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 44-55 (10.8 - 13.6%)
- +1 252 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 200-238 (49.5 - 58.9%)
- 252 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Power-Up Punch vs. 36 HP / 220 Def Alomomola: 66-78 (13.7 - 16.2%) -- possible 9HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
- +1 252 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 36 HP / 220 Def Alomomola: 289-341 (60.2 - 71%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
- 4 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Quagsire: 185-218 (46.9 - 55.3%) -- 70.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
- 4 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Skarmory: 173-204 (51.7 - 61%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Slowbro and mega Slowbro can also be 2HKO/3HKOed by +1 Gunk Shot, but they have Thunder Wave, so unlike other bulky Water-types, they don't need to rely on a 30% chance to cripple you. Still, Slowbro and Mega Slowbro are not hard counters, that tittle is reserved only for Jirachi and Doublade.
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The thing is that people are still gonna say mixed w/ just gunk shot is better, but I like the idea. Might be interesting. Though, sadly, Greninja suffers a severe case of 4ms
That set actually looks like it can work, but I'm going to be a terminology asshole and point out it's still a Mixed set
True, but there is a significant difference between "mixed physically based" and "mixed specially based". Most mixed sets up until now advocated absolutely no investment in attack and just ran gunk shot to wreck fairies. This one is full phys investment with ice beam solely for wrecking dragons and ground-flying d00ds.
Yeah I read that wrong, my bad. My hatred for shitty sets people won't stop bringing up is starting to affect my perception, so I'm seeing "physical based" and thinking "pure physical". Sorry about that.
someone who understands and doesn't call someone else's opinion ass right off the bat
it actually took a mod saying that Physical Greninja isn't ass before he changed his mind about it, smh
You specificed pure physical while Alexwolf's set is mixed. Pure is still shit.
I still think physical Greninja is really bad. There's no real reason to use it over special Greninja, which is just stronger and has better overall coverage. The only counters to Hydro Pump / Ice Beam / Gunk Shot / HP Fire Greninja are Chansey (which can be worn into 2HKO range pretty easily) and Empoleon among some random niche stuff so it's not like you're gaining much from running physical.
This is an old post, but
It just occurred to me Game Freak has signed Flygon's death sentence with that. Nothing good ever learns Boomburst, and they won't bother making it any less mediocre.
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Cresselia, Mew, Jirachi, PhD Rotom-W, and Slowbro also wall or check the set you mentioned. However, with Dark Pulse over Ice Beam they don't. Alomomola is another common Pokemon that counters Greninja without a Grass move. And yeah i agree that a physically based mixed set is inferior the a specially based mixed one, and will only be used as a surprise / lure set, if it's used at all.
I still feel that Hydro Pump is the least useful move on a mixed set w/ Gunk Shot. Aside from Heatran and a few other things, what is it hitting that Grass Knot, Ice Beam, Gunk Shot, and Dark Pulse aren't hitting? Ice Beam is still a very much needed move to hit DNite, Chomp, Lando (T), Lati@s (esp Latias cuz Dark Pulse doesn't KO bulky variants, and other things like Mence and Sceptile pre mega. I guess Bisharp can be a problem but other than that I see very little reason to run hydro once gunk shot is released.
Edit: just realized that steels become a problem, but then again HP fire > Grass Knot if Keldeo and Swampert aren't an issue. Tran really seems like the only issue.
Edit: just realized that steels become a problem, but then again HP fire > Grass Knot if Keldeo and Swampert aren't an issue. Tran really seems like the only issue.
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