I mean, it needs a full revamp anyways with all the changes in oras, but you are correct.
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OU Analyses Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Jukain
- Start date
On the Landorus-T analysis, the physdef spread (252 HP / 240 Def / 8 SpD / 8 Spe) is inefficient. It says that 252/8 allows it to survive M-Manectric's HP Ice from full health, but this can be achieved with 248/8 anyway, which also gives it a Stealth Rock HP number without sacrificing any other HP numbers (currently lacks a Leftovers number anyway). Therefore, a spread of 248 HP / 244 Def / 8 SpD / 8 Spe is more efficient as it scores a more desirable HP stat for competitive play, loses out on no hits and actually has very slightly higher physical bulk overall for a Pokemon of its stat spread (defense has a greater effect than HP).
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While I was sweeping for Greninja mentions, I figured I should note that I deleted some analyses that pertain to unviable Pokemon and explain a little bit. Those were Espeon, Krookodile, Kyurem-N, Reuniclus, and Whimsicott. Krookodile is something that has been commented on multiple times in this thread and has been talked about enough to the point where I don't think there's anything controversial about getting rid of it. It's outclassed/overshadowed as a bulky Ground-type and is a bad offensive Pokemon in this tier. Furthermore, the analysis and Pokemon itself were oriented toward a metagame with DeoSharp, which is long gone due to the ban of Deoxys-S last summer. Whether we actually want to include an analysis for Espeon in regards to GeoPass is another story (though I will personally say that I don't think we should), but the current dual screens set on the site isn't good at all. If you really want to use dual screens offense, you have Azelf which is superior in pretty much every way as it boasts a fast Taunt and access to Stealth Rock. We also have way better Magic Bounce users in this metagame with the introduction of Mega Sableye and Mega Diancie, so anything that could be called a niche in that regard is pretty much completely invalidated. Kyurem-N has the SubRoost Pressure stall going for it, I suppose, but common Pokemon like Clefable, Ferrothorn, Tyranitar, Mega Metagross, Mega Slowbro, Azumarill, etc are far too problematic for it and it's outclassed by Kyurem-B in pretty much every way otherwise -- Kyurem-B even runs the more effective Sub set with the massive benefit of Fusion Bolt. CM Reuniclus has been proven to be pretty decent recently from some fairly successful use in the most recent Tour finals and a general increase in popularity recently, and though Mega Sableye is really a pain for it I'd say it's still fine. That should get an analysis, but the only set in the current analysis is a Trick Room set that is checked/walled by tons of common Pokemon (I'll be more specific if anyone inquires) and generally ineffective. The Whimsicott analysis was outdated and in skeleton format in addition to containing a bad set; if someone wants to argue for a Whimsicott analysis with an actual good set backed by detail and replays, then they are still welcome to. None of these removals are out of the blue; I've talked to others about them in the past, but never really got around to them until now.
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I'm also probably going to get rid of the Gourgeist-Small and Haxorus analyses unless there are any valid objections.. Gourgeist-Small was an analysis written during last SPL pretty much because PttP used it to success in one of his games and a couple of other people decided to use it, so it gained a little bit of popularity for its merits at the time. I don't think Gourgeist-Small really has a lot of merits at this point. You could argue that Gourgeist-XL, which boasts the same defensive typing but a lot more bulk, is actually decent in this metagame because it can handle some top threats like Mega Metagross, Mega Lopunny, Excadrill, Keldeo, and a couple other things pretty effectively, but all Gourgeist-Small really does is sit their and annoy stuff, which it doesn't even really do that well anymore. Mega Sableye and Clefable, two very common and dominant Pokemon, completely block it. Things like Mega Charizard X, Heatran, versions of Talonflame with actual longevity (ie non-CB), Gengar, and TG RD Manaphy were either not around or significantly less common during the period of the metagame this analysis was written for (except for Heatran I guess?) and are all huge problems for Gourgeist-Small. Furthermore, while it has a great defensive typing, it doesn't even have the raw bulk to spinblock Excadrill or take on much of anything for that matter. Not a good Pokemon in this metagame. Haxorus is kind of a gimmicky DragMag-exclusive type of Pokemon, and DragMag strategies are, well, not good... Unlike other DDers, Haxorus has low bulk and provides pretty much zero synergy other than slamming things kinda decently. You could argue that it's a decent stallbreaker, but it doesn't have the longevity and loses to the stall's Fairy and/or Steel the moment it is forced to lock itself into Outrage. There's also enough stallbreakers in this metagame that just being a decent stallbreaker doesn't really cut it anymore.
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I'm also probably going to get rid of the Gourgeist-Small and Haxorus analyses unless there are any valid objections.. Gourgeist-Small was an analysis written during last SPL pretty much because PttP used it to success in one of his games and a couple of other people decided to use it, so it gained a little bit of popularity for its merits at the time. I don't think Gourgeist-Small really has a lot of merits at this point. You could argue that Gourgeist-XL, which boasts the same defensive typing but a lot more bulk, is actually decent in this metagame because it can handle some top threats like Mega Metagross, Mega Lopunny, Excadrill, Keldeo, and a couple other things pretty effectively, but all Gourgeist-Small really does is sit their and annoy stuff, which it doesn't even really do that well anymore. Mega Sableye and Clefable, two very common and dominant Pokemon, completely block it. Things like Mega Charizard X, Heatran, versions of Talonflame with actual longevity (ie non-CB), Gengar, and TG RD Manaphy were either not around or significantly less common during the period of the metagame this analysis was written for (except for Heatran I guess?) and are all huge problems for Gourgeist-Small. Furthermore, while it has a great defensive typing, it doesn't even have the raw bulk to spinblock Excadrill or take on much of anything for that matter. Not a good Pokemon in this metagame. Haxorus is kind of a gimmicky DragMag-exclusive type of Pokemon, and DragMag strategies are, well, not good... Unlike other DDers, Haxorus has low bulk and provides pretty much zero synergy other than slamming things kinda decently. You could argue that it's a decent stallbreaker, but it doesn't have the longevity and loses to the stall's Fairy and/or Steel the moment it is forced to lock itself into Outrage. There's also enough stallbreakers in this metagame that just being a decent stallbreaker doesn't really cut it anymore.
from the Mega Metagross Set Details:
"Alternatively, an Adamant nature can be used with HP investment to better act as an offensive tank, as such a set is both more powerful and more durable than the Jolly set. The best EV spread to use is 68 HP / 252 Atk / 188 Spe, which outspeeds everything up to Jolly Excadrill. Additionally, the increase in power from using an Adamant nature is incredible. For example, Mega Metagross achieves a guaranteed OHKO against physically defensive Mega Sableye, which is an otherwise very solid check to Mega Metagross, as well as a general increase in power."
252+ Atk Tough Claws Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye: 144-171 (47.3 - 56.2%) -- 24.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
pretty sure that's meant to say 2HKO
"Alternatively, an Adamant nature can be used with HP investment to better act as an offensive tank, as such a set is both more powerful and more durable than the Jolly set. The best EV spread to use is 68 HP / 252 Atk / 188 Spe, which outspeeds everything up to Jolly Excadrill. Additionally, the increase in power from using an Adamant nature is incredible. For example, Mega Metagross achieves a guaranteed OHKO against physically defensive Mega Sableye, which is an otherwise very solid check to Mega Metagross, as well as a general increase in power."
252+ Atk Tough Claws Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye: 144-171 (47.3 - 56.2%) -- 24.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
pretty sure that's meant to say 2HKO
dealing with that Cherub Agent
In regards to the Latios update by MikeDawg, I feel that the LO set on site is perfectly fine. However, a good amount of people have been using Calm Mind Latios and I've seen multiple replays and posts in the OU forums about it (which I can find if need be), which was originally dismissed to OO, and I feel deserves its own set (as in just that set not a full revamp analysis).
Thoughts?
Thoughts?
What are people's thoughts on slashing Leftovers after Assault Vest on Goodra? Or at least put into Set Details? I've been using Goodra lately, and I know it's "main selling point" has most likely been its Assault Vest set, but I wasn't too impressed by it. Just changing Assault Vest to Leftovers worked for me, I very much appreciated the health recovery. This also means Goodra isn't forced to use only attacks. The bulk that's taken away is made up for via Leftovers in my opinion. Thoughts?
I guess if you wanted to change it to lefties over av it would make sense to use a support move on the set since av limits you from doing that. The best I could find is like rest or rain dance, neither of which seem too useful :/
So would Emboar and Serperior fall into OU now with their HA and Samurott in UU? What about when the Johto HA starters come out? OU for Gatr, UU for the other 2?
Someone's already answered this question for you, but I'll answer it again. A Pokemon's tier placement depends entirely on usage, so where these Pokemon end up depends on how much they're used.
do they have any uses that would be in said tiers?
The johto starters abilities haven't been released so we can't legally use them. Serperior is getting an OU analysis and is incredibly strong in that tier. I think it it will be UU though but it is certainly viable in OU. Emboar is UU at most even with reckless it just isn't strong enough to be OU. And samurott.......we'll let's not talk about that. Though this does raise the question if tyrantrums role in OU with rock head. That combo is something to be feared.
Didn't I just say not to talk about that. Nah i'm just kidding man.
Also about haxorus's role in OU, I'd have to disagree about what Jukain said. Haxorus's niches come in lum berry, mold breaker, and the ability to not have to take up a mega slot. Haxorus may not have as much speed or bulk as some of the other dragon dance users such as Altaria and zard x, but it does have significant advantages. For one there is the ability to hold an item, particularly the lum berry, which allows it to shut down mega sableye and then go to set up on it. It also allows Haxorus to brush off other status elements without having to use substitute. Then there is mold breaker, which allows it to break past pokemon such as unaware clefable (and quagsire I guess), several levitate pokemon such as rotom-w, as well as breaking past mega sableye's magic bounce with taunt. It also doesn't possess a stealth rock weakness like zard X and altaria (in it's normal form) which means that hazard removal isn't completely mandatory in team building. Speaking of which, Haxorus doesn't take up a mega slot which means that more megas are open to ur team and more defensive megas can be used. I'm not going to act like Haxorus doesn't face some stiff competition from other dragon dance users but I think I've changed my stance on Haxorus and I can see it's use in the OU tier.
The problem is that Haxorus doesn't actually shut down M-Sableye, in fact it's more of a liability to put Haxorus against M-Sableye because M-Sableye's utility set of Foul Play, Recover, Will-O-Wisp, Knock Off is extremely good on defensive and balance minded builds. Clefable it'll never have the chance to switch on and is forced to take a Moonblast to the face with its mediocre bulk on top of that. Spikes and Toxic Spikes increased prevalence in OU as seen in both ladder and SPL games can confirm that Haxorus indeed needs hazard removal out of the picture in order to maintain itself with an already established lack of defensive qualities to take advantage of its offensive traits. These niches are to an extreme that one would argue is an exclusive luxury that would make Haxorus worth while when in fact you're more than likely better off using another Dragon type or anything more useful mon to begin with. I have no real opinion on whether or not it gets an analysis or not but the way I see it allowing Haxorus to get an analysis is just asking for more analysis with generally very niche mons in this meta-game simply cause they provide a couple of aspects, which more than likely aren't even a big deal on a grander scale anyways.
Requesting that SpDef Excadrill gets an analysis. While it certainly doesn't have the greatest special defense, it's solid hp backs that up nicely. As a spinner, it can run toxic to cripple mega sableye due to mold breaker, which is very helpful. Myself, Branflakes325, chimpact and others can vouch for the viability of this set, and I feel it deserves an analysis.
Here is roughly the set that has been used:
Excadrill @ Leftovers
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 236 HP / 236 SpD / 36 Spe
Careful Nature
- Toxic
- Rapid Spin
- Iron Head
- Earthquake
Here is roughly the set that has been used:
Excadrill @ Leftovers
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 236 HP / 236 SpD / 36 Spe
Careful Nature
- Toxic
- Rapid Spin
- Iron Head
- Earthquake
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Isn't fling gliscor with toxic orb a thing to beat mega sableye? Saw it used in SPL.
Toxic Orb Swords Dance beats Mega Sableye regardless and is more consistent due to being able to be used multiple times, so why not just use Toxic Orb + Swords Dance?
Fling is a bad set; it's one-time use and if you mistime it (likely because SD is actually common, so Sableye will switch out) then you're still hopeless against Sableye. Moreover, SD actually has the ability to pose an offensive threat because it's hard to kill and rather annoying for a lot of teams to switch into.
I feel that bulky Starmie needs a revamp or some edits. The current set with Reflect Type is great and all for avoiding pursuit and stuff like leech seed and spore, but it is complete setup fodder for sub cm keldeo; which is pretty bad. By swapping Reflect Type for Psyshock, Starmie has a much easier time versus Keldeo. This may or may not be an entire revamp, but I thought it was something to bring up.
Shouldn't Mega-Zam always run a Timid nature in order to ouspeed both Mega-Beedrill and Mega-Lopunny ? The revamp analysis of Mega Zam was done before the ORAS metagame and doesn't tell nothing about this