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OU CCAT- 3rd Edition VOTING DISCUSSION SEE #157

Discussion in 'BW OU' started by Electrolyte, Oct 1, 2012.

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  1. Bryce

    Bryce Lun

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    Well I don't know much about these playstyles so the above posts really enlightened me.So I have one question.Was it really a good idea to start the voting before the discussion?.Sun Stall and Quick Stall are both rare sights in OU and they are no doubt very unique.A lot of voters imo probably didn't know much about Sun stall or quick stall and voted simply because it's something not standard.Now most of the posts in discussion are against Sun/Quick stall rather than supporting Sun/Quick Stall.From the above posts of players who have good knowledge about these playstyles,we can see that both these playstyles have some serious flaws.If people could read them before they voted,it is a high possibility that many of them would change their mind.
  2. Temp V1

    Temp V1 Movin' at the speed of life and I can't slow down

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    I'm in a bit of a hurry so I'll just address the main points, and hopefully the others when I get some time. Once again I'll just bold things so that you can get an idea of what I am addressing now, and then I may further address other points later on in an edit.

    Firstly thank you for coming back with some really strong points Harsha, I think its very beneficial for the project to have this sort of discussion.
    Yeah Ninetales isn't really doing much, and the general idea behind it is use it to get as much damage off on something as you can before it gets KO'd. I have found that this is the general mentality of the PS population at the moment, and it has worked incredibly well for me, allowing me to safely predict switches that give me the upper hand temporarily, as my opponent will assume I'm just saccing Ninetales. Against the Tornadus-T & Dugtrio Rain teams, it will take intelligent play and good prediction to win the weather war, so don't lead with Ninetales, set up one layer of any hazards, bait in Dugtrio and go from there.

    As MoP has already stated it would appear that Sun Stall teams are quite weak to Tyranitar in particular, and a Choice Banded set could seriously cause a lot of problems, that is why it would need to be dealt with in a similar manner to Heatran. That links into what you said in your first paragraph Harsha, which I completely agree with; You can't wall everything, so give yourself the best set of assets possible to adequately deal with what you're faced with. My team actually fares very well against Specs Politoed. In the rain it will only 2HKO 2-3 members of my team, I would have to run calcs, and in the Sun my team becomes much more comfortable in dealing with it.

    What else is there to take on Tornadus-T you asked? While I am trying to avoid narrowing down choices by saying that this one thing deals with it, thus making it seem like the Pokemon must be on the team to ensure success, that isn't true. That said Cresselia does a very nice job of dealing with Tornadus-T, as I stated in my original post. There will be other Pokemon that can do a similar job, we just need to find them, so it isn't the greatest threat to Sun Stall.

    As for my team, I'm not going to post it here until I have sufficiently laddered with it, because there is probably going to come a point where people will want to see hard empirical evidence. If there was a general consensus that people were happy to take me at my world I could display it, however I generally like to have evidence to back me up. I have no doubt my team is weak to numerous threats in the current meta, I have already identified a few, and I am sure I will discover more the more I use the team.

    Just as a sort of overview, I know this should probably have gone at the start but oh well, I am only arguing for Sun Stall because I believe it would be an interesting challenge for this project, similar to QuickStall. The difference is that I know Sun Stall can be made successfully without great levels of skill, and it can be creative. While I am sure QuickStall will be the latter, I can't say for the former.
  3. yee

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    Reading over the last page I feel like an overview of sun stall should be given to be completely sure there's an understanding of it here. Using Ninetails is not just so you can give up a wall to have a cool Ninetails, it's there to beat other weather and make Sableye / Cresselia much better. No walls can do that. You don't worry about using 5 pokemon vs 6 when you have Politoed because they're upgraded and you can fight other weather.

    There's two effective outlines (not as much now because of Tornadus-T / Thund / Keldeo / Chomp etc.) and not hard to figure out if you know Chansey / Sableye / Cresselia are required if you want a harder stall and Venusaur / Sableye / Cresselia are required if you want to run SubSeed Venu. This isn't something that will lead to much discovery in a CCAT because both effective sun stalls are pre set molds and not amazing in this metagame anyway.

    Of course Porygon2 over Chansey could be nice for SpecsTran which thankfully doesn't exist and Torn-T to an extent but it's almost always going to lose to sun offense and certainly isn't full of room for creativity. Stall in general is awful in BW2.
  4. StairFall

    StairFall

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    Is it a tad ironic that a sub seed venu on a slightly less defensive sun stall team would fit into the definition of quick stall? It would play a role similar to sub seed whimsi/skymin/pluff on an ubers quick stall team where the strategy came from. You're outspeeding 110 scarfers and can make substitutes for a fairly long time. Throw in some t-spikes and that's incredibly effective, especially when you ditch a coverage move for a support move like sleep powder.
  5. Lavos Spawn

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    I'm still waiting for somebody to tell me exactly what a shell of Quick Stall might look like. All I've been told is that it consists of a hazard setter plus a spinblocker and some offense, which sounds like HO to me. Until we know exactly what we're getting from this alleged Quick Stall I don't think we should be choosing it as our style of choice for CCAT.
  6. StairFall

    StairFall

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    All right, I'm going to give this my absolute best shot explaining quick stall after reading the section of it in the uber stall article, a few rmts and doing a test with the sample team.

    Quick stall plays similarly to stall except you abuse your speed instead of your defence to force switches and stall out opponents. While skarmory might roost stall an opponent that's been afflicted with toxic or phaze with hazards up-surviving hits with it's massive defence-quick stall would use a pokemon's speed to use buffers like substitute to keep it from getting hit.

    An example of this is whimsicott. By combining it's 116 speed with prankster substitutes and a combo of leech seed+lefties it can make near infinite substitutes, the opponent unable to get a hit in between when one sub break and the other goes up while taking seed and toxic damage.

    Other examples are fast users of moves like disable, encore, torment and taunt to create turns where nothing substantial happens in order to increase passive damage.

    Also because of the nature of the annoyers and the fact they need their speed they're hardly defensive juggernauts. For this reason abusing 4x resists and immunities as well as creating openings with the above mentioned encore/taunt etc. are most often how you will be safely getting them into the battle and setting up.

    A team archetype is usually hazards/annoyer/spinblocker/special tank/physical tank/ cleaner. Sometimes however the tanks/walls are merged into boosting mono attackers such as crocune or in ubers dark arceus' stall breaker set in order to make room for a second annoyer/disruptor.

    That's a very basic shell anyway. It's late so I'll probably edit this post in the morning.
  7. Bl1tzkri3g

    Bl1tzkri3g

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    I could very well be wrong, but from my experience, quick stall entails a combination of elements of hyper offense (hence quick) and stall (hence stall). The stall part involves setting up hazards and retaining them, which is the spin blocker and hazard setter you mentioned Lavos. The elements of hyper offense aren't really offense in the sense of using uber fast/powerful mons, its more how quickstall pokes like whimsicott can force foes out, much like offensive pokemon can force out defensive threats. The difference is 1. You're not often attacking in quick stall, you're more recovering/annoying, whereas in offense if your not attacking your setting up with boosts/hazards, and 2. Quick stall focuses on bulk as well as speed, but less attcking prowess, where offense features pokemon that not need to be that great defensively because they're nukes. There isn't really a shell per se of quick stall like there might be for sun stall, cause there are so many different pokes who fit the vauge descriptions. Maybe one qould look like this? Whimsicott/SubProtect Gliscor/Tormenttran/Jellicent/Forrtress/and er maybe Chance for wishes, not sure, we would have to work through it. hope this helps
  8. yee

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    I guess if you want to run "quick stall" which is still yet to be defined outside of DPP ubers, just make a team around a SubSeeder. Nom something like Breloom or Sceptile, pair them with spikes, and have at it. It wouldn't make sense to call it a quick stall team as much as a SubSeed grass-type team or just stall because it's relying on residual damage.

    Edit- Wasn't nomming "quick stall", was suggesting nomming a SubSeed user instead.
  9. StairFall

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    Well sub seeding isn't the only way, simply the most common. I'd say the key difference is that instead of using your defences to survive hits you use support moves to prevent hit. You juggle your opponents between moves while protecting or use different methods of residual healing to create infinite substitutes. You could probably do something with paraflinch/fusion though that's a bit more risky and luck based (Doesn't stop jirachi's number 1 set revolving around it though). Basically it comes down to the fact that instead of a sturdy wall taking hits you have a speedy attacker giving hits in tandem with residual damage from behind a safety net; maybe a sub or an opponent with only 1 move that hits you that's been tormented.

    The quick in quick stall has two meanings: your pokemon are faster and use speed to harass your opponent and the residual damage takes effect faster because you can often stall and attack at the same time.
  10. yee

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    That's because "quick stall" isn't an actual thing in BW2. You're not going to get a definition, it's just a term occasionally used to describe a stall team featuring a paraflincher or a subseeder, maybe some fast Sub / Taunt / Roost mon that doesn't really do anything. Toxic Spikes are not getting you far in BW2 and Taunt WoW Mew is not Taunt WoW Mewtwo. With the length of the games you'll have with it you should just say stall.
  11. dragonuser

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    While Sun Stall is a very good archetype (I have used it to a lot of success in the past), I am not sure if it is the right playstyle for a CCAT. I do think that alexwolf covered this pretty thoroughly in his post, but Sun Stall is really limited in its Pokemon choices. While there is some room for creativity, there isn't much. Almost all Sun Stalls are made out of a pool of like 9 Pokemon, and while it may be a very strong playstyle, I don't think that type of limitation would be good for a CCAT.

    On a similar vein I am also some what skeptical of Hail Stall as most successful Hail Stall's are also made out of a pool of like 9-10 Pokemon. Don't get me wrong, I am not saying that these aren't good archetypes, I just feel like if we choose them then most of our team will already be "chosen" and there will be little room for actual creativity and innovation.
  12. tehy

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    Quick stall is using pokemon that can move before the opponent to use stall moves. Taunt, recover, toxic. Subseeders are a good example, as is sableye. As in any stall, hazards help. In ou, gliscor is great at this, being only stopped by skarmory and bronzong-other steel types can check him, and that's about it. Subdisable gengar's also been mentioned, but that's a pretty good one-forces switches, outspeeds, screws with people. And have we mentioned kyurem? Pressure sub-stalling with roost, as well as great STAB and coverage moves. And as i mentioned earlier, starmie fits pretty well on a quickstall team, what with rapid spin/recover.

    A quickstall team might look like this: Deoxys-d, starmie, sableye/gengar for hazards control. Then, gliscor, kyurem, the other of sableye/gengar, maybe even tornadus-T with that taunt, whimsicott. Slack off/taunt infernape has never been a thing before, but it could be now. Alakazam with encore's also a great idea. And espeon can be in there too. Landorus-T and rotom-w, even, landorus-T only if you're not running deoxys-D. Celebi is fast and can easily run t-wave and recover. Taunt SR terrakion, taunt cobalion... the list goes on. I suppose you could even throw in a sweeper there. Roostmence? Taunt+roost aerodactly? Tormenttran?

    Really, sun is just a very one-sided playstyle in general. Since having a ninetales is such a blow AND you are sun-reliant, you're forced to use either support pokemon or sun abusers. You can avoid using sun abusers, but then your team's less effective, even if you have sun up. Basically, the crappiness of ninetales and sun force you to overcompensate with beastly sun pokemon, which of course are generally only beastly IN sun. So you have limited options. In sun stall it's even worse, because again-weather-reliant AND you lose a pokemon. I have trouble walling everything with SIX teamslots.

    Lavos, you declare that "You refuse to vote until quickstall is defined." Isn't that the whole POINT of a CCAT? Learning about things that we don't know enough about to define? Sun stall, on the other hand, is very clearly defined. Side note: I was about to say "at best you can run a suboptimal core", but then i wondered: can you? Can you even replace the cress, tales, forry/tenta/donphan, heatran core without your team falling apart? There's little room for customization-the last two pokemon, which spinner, and maybe porygon 2 over heatran, and that about sums it up.
  13. Lavos Spawn

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    Sun stall is only limited by the perception that people have of it. When you're making a Sun stall team, if you're convinced that there are only 9 Pokemon you can choose from to create a decent team, you are never going to go beyond the boundaries of those 9 Pokemon, regardless of whether or not it's true that you need 6 of those 9 to have a functioning Sun stall (and it's not true, you can get extremely creative with Sun stall and still have an excellent team, PM me for more info if you don't believe me). Sun stall will still be completely viable for CCAT, we just have to think outside the box a little bit and not limit ourself by our perceptions of what Sun stall "is".

    More and more generic language on the side of "Quick Stall". If somebody could pastebin to me a legitimate "Quick Stall" team that they have used and have had success with, I would be eternally grateful to them.
  14. Lavos Spawn

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    I achieved #1 on the Pokemon Online main server ladder at a rank of 1681 with a Sun Stall team of Ninetales, Dragonite, Quagsire, Skarmory, Chansey, and Claydol. Pretty sure I could also get above 1000 on PS with the same team. Not the most original Sun stall ever, but not too generic, either. Quagsire and Claydol are not often seen at all in OU, and hey, look - no Cresselia!
  15. Electrolyte

    Electrolyte On a short LoA
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    Tehy does a nice job of explaining it, but I think I can add some more. Quick Stall is a bunch of fast, annoying pokemon spamming Protect and Substitute while you die to hazards, leech seed, status, or a combination of the three. It's called Quick because the pokemon that perform the stalling usually move first. It's different from regular stall because in Quick Stall you're not really supposed to take hits- instead, you avoid getting touched at all through Protect/Substitute spam. This is why Leech Seed is so common- because it not only deals damage but also heals you, allowing you to make even more Substitutes. This is why the argument some of you had about splitting evs is not exactly true. Quick Stall pokemon don't need bulk- as they won't be taking hits too often (though bulk is certainly appreciated, because stuff happens) You don't have to worry about HP evs either; you'll want to decrease your HP stat as much as possible to gain the most out of Leech Seed recovery.

    Being that 'quick' is really the only restriction with using Quick Stall, it is very possible that we can combine both quick and sun stall for this project. We can try a different style of Sun Stall- one that uses Chlorophyll grass types to pull hair out and just be jerks. That will give real meaning to Sun Stall- because you use Sun a lot more for the stalling- and you give Quick Stall a chance to shine. (Pun intended)

    Let's look at our options here. We could consider Jumpluff, a pokemon wrongfully dismissed by Lavos Spawn. I have a lot of experience with the thing, and let me tell you it is awesome. It is the prime example of Quick Stall because it has Leech Seed, Substitute, and high speed. Another great example is SubSeed Venasaur- who, albiet less common compared to its offensive set, is still unexpected and can deal heavy damage if your oppinent is unprepared. There are so many more options- but those two are the best. A lot of you have been talking about Sableye in the Sun- well look, Sableye's Quick too, right? Sun stall is not restricted to slower pokemon.

    So now I'm proposing the idea of the combination of both. I've talked to some people about it; and most of them have agreed. I'd like to see what you guys think.
  16. dragonuser

    dragonuser The only thing I look up to is the sky
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    Arguing isn't going to help either side. Although, like Lavos I am wondering what Quick Stall actually is, as few people have given examples (and you should for lesser known/nonexistant playstyles) and when they have given an example they mentioned something like Whimsicott... Maybe if someone could just post the six Pokemon of a successful quick stall team, it could clear up a lot of confusion and misunderstanding and could get us back to actually choosing our team type for the CCAT.

    edit: ninjad... sorta
  17. Lavos Spawn

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    I dismiss Jumpluff because its defenses are shit, but whatever, you can have your fun.

    I'd be fine with merging the ideas of Quick Stall and Sun Stall together. I don't think it limits our options too much, and it also opens up some appealing ideas for stallish 'mons on a Sun team, most notably Sableye (which spinblocks extremely well when water-type attacks have their power halved) and Venusaur (excellent SubSeed 'mon that benefits a ton from Sun).

    What do we call this, though? Quick Sun Stall? Whatever it is, I want my name on it.
  18. tehy

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    Yawn. That's not sun stall, that's stall with ninetales happening to be a sixth member. Your sun benefits are as follows:
    Dragonite stronger fire attack (if he has it)
    Claydol not weak to water.
    And... chansey and dragonite not taking SS damage? I guess that's nice for them.
    As for de-benefits:
    Skarm weaker to fire-type moves
    Quagsire weaker water attack (If he has it).
    That actually kind of does matter-quagsire is even more egregious hazards bait, and he can't really run much of a boosting set either. And skarm has more problems with dragonite, especially bandnite which should rip apart your team.

    Answer me this:Would you lose anything if ninetales left that team? I'm guessing... no.

    It's not "talking trash", i'm not talking about you.

    And from what scarfwynuat states, i deduce this was before the therians and genesect. So yeah-genesect and tornadus-T Rip you a new one, and you need sun to be up for keldeo. Hell, what do you even do against your own lavos sun team?
  19. Princess Bubblegum

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    Yay argument!

    Basically, us on the "Lavos side" feel that without a good example of what a quick stall team might look like, it doesn't seem to be real team to start out with. For example when I say "sand stall" one things Hippowdon and Skarm, "hyper offense" dragons, maybe magnezone. Even the rare strategy of sun stall has some basical underlying. Quickstall, nope, what are the pokemon required for quick stall? What are the deviations?

    I feel that if quick stall is chosen, we need to start off with a solid basis, maybe one pokemon that we will build a team around following the same idea, but until that time, what do you expect us to think about it?

    Edit: wo jumpluff... dam I got triple ninja'd

    Also Lavos, I am interested that you used Dragonite on a sun stall team, would you mind sharing the set? Is it offensive or defensive, I am quite curious. Also when was this? The lack of a genesect switch in looks troubling these days.
  20. Lavos Spawn

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    Actually, no, having Protect on half my team means I can handle CB Nite pretty well, Hydreigon can say hello to Chansey, and MixMence loses to Chansey, even with Brick Break, because Eviolite is a great thing. Calling this Sun Stall team merely "decent" is a complete and total injustice. It wrecks face, assuming you know how to play this game.

    Scarfwynaut, it's a specially defensive Dragonite with EQ, FBlast, DTail, and Roost. Very effective on a stall team that appreciates the phazing and utility job that the set performs. The peak was about a month and a half ago, Genesect wasn't a problem because they were all Scarf, and like I said, Protect on half the team is nice. Choice Band Genesect could probably mess the team up pretty bad, but thankfully there aren't a ton of those.

    I'm turning in for the night, expect more words from me tomorrow.
  21. bubbly

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    So yeah this discussion is getting ridiculous. Look at the posts throughout this thread from me, Electrolyte, tehy, and a few other people about quickstall and you'll see it is much more defined and viable than you think.

    For instance, here's a Hail based semi-quickstall team which has had me consistently hovering in the top 20 on PO (yeah it could be higher but I'm a terrible ladderer and have no time atm):

    Reference Quickstall Team
    -Abomasnow (LSeed, Focus Punch, Ice Shard, Protect)
    -Gliscor (Protect, Taunt, Toxic, Earthquake)
    -Tentacruel (Scald, Toxic Spikes, Rapid Spin, Toxic)
    -Heatran (Lava Plume, Stealth Rock, Toxic / WoW, Roar)
    -Gengar (SubDisable / SubWoW depending on whether I feel like the 75% accuracy)
    -Kyurem (SubRoost)

    It doesn't have a transition mon, which is common in the quickstall archetype, but otherwise it fulfils the team style perfectly. I built it around Hail because as people have been saying, hazards are hard to maintain in this metagame (I use Toxic Spikes mainly to get the advantage over sand-based offense teams), so Hail is nice as an extra source of residual damage. Basically, the entire team bar my two entry hazards users abuses residual damage on a massive scale. It's kinda weak to Mamoswine and some other offensive mons if they have godly prediction, but you get the idea; it sacrifices the ability to hard wall stuff like stall is supposed to do (and which it can't in this meta anyway), for the ability to simply stall threats out. You should also be able to see how it uses stallish mons in a very similar way to pure offense, e.g. Toxic Gliscor, Kyurem, Gengar and Abomasnow all wear down each others counters. Hopefully this goes some way to stopping the "no one has used a viable quickstall team, it sucks" arguments.
  22. dragonuser

    dragonuser The only thing I look up to is the sky
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    Anyways my votes~

    1. Fuzzy's balanced/semi stall
    2. Ganj4lf's Weatherless Balanced
    3. Jimbon's hail offense

    Frankly all three of these playstyles are "looked down upon" in BW2 when they shouldn't be. All are solid options in our metagame, and just require a little bit of creativity and solid teambuilding. I would love to see any of these playstyles built and used effectively.
  23. tehy

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    Calling it a sun stall team is a complete and total injustice. It's a stall team with sun on it. Just like i used to run stall with hippowdon on it, except that was actually worth it because he is boss.

    Also, you never said how you deal with genesect or tornadus-T, or what benefit sun gives. I guess sun making hurricane miss is a benefit right there, but still. And perfect prediction with it running a scarf is not a justifiable response, especially if it doesn't have a scarf. Protect helps, but skarm's prime genebait.

    Come to think of it, sableye basically dismantles your team. If ninetales goes down, which isn't hard to do, he should 5-0 you, your best option is to get nite burned and dragon tail him.
  24. Joeyboy

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    How are those examples of generic language? I get the "probably do something" and maybe "basically" but "often" and "speedy"? Those are just words :)

    Anyway onto the point, I definitely agree with Lavos on the fact that while Sun Stall seems limited thats only because those are self imposed limitations. Theres always been times where people have said that 'this is the way to build a successful team' and that theres no room for creativity, but then inevitably someone comes along and does something creative and it works. I'd say(oh generic :) Ninetales is the only requirement for Sun Stall. Cresselia and Sableye rock and they perform amazingly well on the team but they're not mandatory. Spinblockers were always said to be mandatory on Stall teams, and yet we have numerous examples of stall teams being successful foregoing them.

    My point is that teams aren't really limited; there are pokemon we all know who will be great on certain teams, but that by no means makes them mandatory. This goes for things like Quickstall and Hail stall too. (My problem with Quickstall though, I have to admit, is the lack of definition. To me it should really just be labeled stall and we'd build it with a 'quick' mentality ingrained. If that makes sense xD)
  25. alexwolf

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    Mixed Hydreigon, aka standard Hydreigon runs 104 Atk evs when using Superpower, which allows it to 2hko Chansey 65% of the time after SR. MixMence will of 'course be evd to 2HKO Chansey with Brick Break, otherwise it wouldn't be a good stallbreaker, and i assume that CBNite can start wrecking shit if it comes into Quagsire or Dnite right? And regardless this team has many more weaknesses to other top-tier pokes such as SD Fire Fang Garchomp and more so no it isn't a good stall team, just decent, it is your skill and unerstading of the ladder that makes it work.

    Finally as said by tehy, your team is not sun stall anyway, since you don't abuse sun at all, except from countering other weathers, which Ninetales does miserably. In the other hand a Sun Stall team with Cresselia and Sableye (almost all) abuses sun and those pokes gain important pros that makes them worth using. So if you are not abusing the sun, why run Ninetales in the first place Lavos Spawn? Definitely not to counter other weathers, as Ninetales sucks at winning weather wars, so?
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