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OU CCAT - Mark III (Laddering/Discussing - See Post #547)

Discussion in 'BW OU' started by Electrolyte, Oct 8, 2012.

  1. Superpowerdude

    Superpowerdude based wooper #dealwithit
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    Good work on the ccat everyone! The team looks quite solid. I will try come up with a proper rate later but i think penguinX really hit the nail on the head with T-tars ev spread suggestion. We really need Tyranitar to outspeed Jellicent because it can stop Keldeo, cripple T-tar with Will-o-Wisp, prevent bronzong from doing anything with taunt, cripple Latias with burn, hit Gliscor super effectively and Jellicent can also beat Terrakion if its healthy (which it probally would be seeing as it gets a lot of Recover opputinities against this team). Also the ability to outspeed Skarmory is also quite important to help prevent it from getting up multiple layers of Spikes, which will annoy our team a bit in the long runwithout us carrying a rapid spinner

    Anyway i am off to try out this team good luck on the ladder every one!
  2. Temp V1

    Temp V1 Movin' at the speed of life and I can't slow down

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    I haven't spent too much time laddering with the team, but after a few hours these are my thoughts.

    - HP Ice on Keldeo would definitely be quite nice and I think thats what I would go with, although if Terrakion goes down early somehow Gyarados can become a serious problem, so while I think Ice may be better, I wouldn't want to get rid of Electric until more people have expressed their findings.

    - Rain teams; Now I know this was strongly taken into account when selecting the latter members of the team, Latias and Bronzong in particular being selected to check rain teams, and Latias for sun also. A ScarfToed can potentially 2HKO Bronzong after rocks, ~22% chance, so its unlikely but taking 44.51 - 52.52% on the switch in to stop say Gliscor eating the Hydro Pump severely cripples Zong. It also prevents it from dealing with Tornadus-T as well as it will only be able to take two Hurricanes before its KO'd, meaning thats two switches at best and our main Torn-T check is gone. Jirachi doesn't fare a whole lot better, but it does outlive Zong in this situation. I'm not saying we should switch Zong for Jirachi by any means, I just think that it isn't really working as well as we could have hoped.
    I have found that once Zong is gone Rain teams become a serious problem, especially ones with both Torn-T and Breloom, which are becoming more common, because then Terrakion is no longer as safe a check to Tornadus. Latias can do alright sponging the weaker Scalds/Surfs, and doesn't even mind the burn all that much thanks to Recover, but it does get worn down quickly seeing as its basically it and Zong trying to take all the hits. I think something definitely needs to change in the team to better deal with Rain teams at the moment.

    -EVs on Tyranitar; I strongly agree with what Penguin posted earlier in regards to changing Tyranitar's EVs. Granted we do lose a lot of special bulk, which can be very helpful, however the increases to speed and power have been well worth it in my experience, OHKOing Deoxys-D as it Taunts you is a great feeling :3. With the more defensive spread it can also come in on weaker Water attacks in the rain, but you really don't want to come in a Scald and risk the burn, as such I don't think that it would be too large a sacrifice to shift the EVs to a more offensive spread.

    - Latias; From what I've found so far its that I keep wanting Psyshock on Latias, and I really am not using HP-Fire all that much. The main things HP-Fire is used for are the 4x weaks to Fire, and often those will be found under rain. Granted there are the situations where you can kill Toed and then get Sand up thanks to TTar, in these situations HP-Fire is really nice, however I find these few and far between. I have noticed that a well played Breloom can cause problems for the team. Psyshock would seriously mitigate this problem, without losing out too much on the things we'd use HP-Fire on. Granted you now really can't hit Steels, however I have found that Keldeo's Hydro Pump either in or out of rain after even just 1 Calm Mind seriously hurts them.

    - Breloom; As I mentioned earlier a well played Breloom could be a problem. Lets say its a 252 Atk, 252 Spe Jolly LO TechniLoom with SD/Spore/Mach Punch/Bullet Seed it can seriously go to work on the team. Lets say it gets an SD up (assuming rocks are up), it can then OHKO Tyranitar, Gliscor (if it gets 3+ hits on Bullet Seed), 56% chance to OHKO Terrakion with Mach Punch, or guaranteed OHKO with 3+ Bullet Seed hits, however more likely to Mach Punch due to Terrakion being Scarfed. Bronzong would win out as it takes Breloom about 3 attacks to KO it after rocks, in which Bronzong could be firing off HP-Ices. Latias obviously wins, provided it has more than 27% health, although if its close to the 27% mark it'll potentially go down due to LO recoil, or it can attempt to LO Stall Breloom if it comes in with higher HP. Mach Punch maxs at about 55% on Keldeo, so as long as it has more than that it'll aptly deal with Breloom. Not entirely sure if changes should be made to deal with TechniLoom, however it should definitely be kept in mind as something that can cause problems.

    Just a few of my first thoughts, I'd be interested to see if others have identified anything similar to that, alongside other possible areas for refinement.
  3. Superpowerdude

    Superpowerdude based wooper #dealwithit
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    Ok so having play tested the team i have a few more things to suggest....


    *team rater mode activated*

    Ok so as i said in my previous post im seconding penguinXs ev spread of 152 HP / 252 Atk / 104 Spd on Tyranitar. The ability to outspeed and ko Jellicent is so important because Jellicent is quite a big threat to this team. For one it can abuse our teams three Water-type weakness's. He can cripple Tyranitar, Latias and Keldeo with status, and he can beat Terrakion if he his healthy which is quite likely seeing as nothing on this team really threatens Jellicent to much. The given ev spread lets us outspeed standard Jellicent and beat it with Crunch before it can Will-o-Wisp.

    I am also agreeing with Temp V1 that we want Psyshock>Hidden Power [Fire] as Temp V1 said our team has a few problems with Breloom and Psychock lets us fix that somewhat. Not only does Psyshock help against Breloom but it helps with two other threats i have noticed this team has trouble with. Amoongus and Keldeo. Amoongus is so annoying to face, especially the Hidden Power [Ice] varaints as they can hit Latias and Gliscor super effectively. With Giga Drain and Regenarator Amoongus is hard to break for this team and he can gain super effective hits on Keldeo and Tyranitar. Although Amoongus can't do much to Bronzong, Bronzong can't to much back and if Sleep Clause isn't activated Bronzong is a complete sucker for Spore. Its not just Bronzong that Spore effects, it is every pokemon on the team barring Gliscor once his Toxic Orb has activated and even then Gliscor won't like taking Hidden Power [Ice]. The last move slot is also an annoying move with Clear Smog, getting rid of Keldeos stat boosts, or Stun Spore paralyzing key pokemon on our team. Ironically apposing Calm Mind Keldeo are also quite threatening to our team. Especially in rain where Bronzong won't be able to take +1 Hydro Pumps. With Hidden Power [Ice] / Hydro Pump / Secret Sword Keldeo can hit 4 of our team super effectively. He can also set up on Latias to some extent as well as Tyranitar locked Crunch / Pursuit / Stone Edge or after Superpower reciol, Keldeo can also set up on Terrakion locked into anything but Close Combat. Although Terrakion can revenge kill Keldeo with Close Combat that is our only way to beat a +1 Keldeo and Terrakion cannot switch into Keldeo at all. With Psyshock on Latias we can hit Amoongus and Keldeo on their weaker defence letting us beat them easier. While losing out on our only Fire-type coverage can be harsh at times, we have plenty of Fighting-type coverage to help us against some Steel-types. Besides our team has a hard time winning the weather war against rain so chances are Hidden Power [Fire] will be quite useless in a lot of your battles.

    Finally i think Earthqauke>Rock Slide/Stone Edge is a good change on Terrakion. This is because i really miss out on hitting Jirachi super effectively. A Choice Scarf Jirachi can be quite annoying for our team to face, nailing Gliscor with Ice Punch and being able to hit Tyranitar and Latias super effectively with U-turn while gaining momentum is quite annoying. Jirachi can also Trick his Choice Scarf to effectively cripple Keldeo or Gliscor, two key members to our teams strategy. With Earthqauke our Terrakion can outspeed and ko Jirachi by hitting it super effectively.

    Lets keep trying to improve this team its looking great guys!

    Tl;dr
    Show Hide
    Show Hide


    Tyranitar
    .152 HP / 252 Atk / 104 Spd---> 252 Hp / 36 Atk / 220 Sp Def

    Latias
    .Psyshock---> Hidden Power [Fire]

    Terrakion
    .Earthqauke--->Stone Edge / Rock Slide
  4. TGMD

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    Alot of people are voting Psyshock off the island, I made a post earlier with my argument of why I think Hidden Power [Fire] is better and many people would have missed it, so I'll just quote it now:
    It's also worth noting that Hidden Power [Fire] is a guarenteed OHKO on 0/4 Breloom after Stealth Rock / Sandstorm and Draco Meteor is a guarenteed OHKO without any prior damage. Which is unreliable, but if you want to argue unreliability; Psyshock has a very, very low chance of OHKOing 252/0 Amoonguss without Stealth Rock, and alot of Amoonguss carry at least some Defense investment. And finally, CM keldeo can never sweep us due to Terrakion (and we'll lose Latias if they're using KeldTar anyway), I think the pros I listed for Hidden Power [Fire] outweigh Keldeo and the very rare Amoonguss being more threatening, but I can see why many people would like Psyshock :)
  5. Reymedy

    Reymedy They live and die by my command.
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    Without anything to take strong Water hits, or kill Water pokemons fast, this wont go far in my opinion.
    Specs Politoed just has to spam HPump, I dont see what we can do against it. Same goes for an opposing Keldeo. And if it's scarfed Latias wont help so much.
  6. Temp V1

    Temp V1 Movin' at the speed of life and I can't slow down

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    I do see where you're coming from, and I took what you originally said into account when I made my suggestion. As Superpowerdude said we are not generally going to be winning the weather war against Rain, unless we somehow get Tyranitar in on a weakened Specs/Scarf Politoed locked into something like Ice Beam that we can Pursuit, or if the opponent just isn't all that great, in which case it won't matter. Because of that I don't really find that HP Fire would be all that useful. Granted Ferro could just set up on Latias then, but really you don't want to stay in with Latias against Ferrothorn in the rain ever, unless you're SubCM. In this case we'd be better off switching into Gliscor to take the Gyro/TWave/Leech Seed or hazards and then Taunt, Taunt >>> Toxic really as it helps the team a lot more.
    I hadn't really taken Amoonguss into consideration when suggesting Psyshock, but thats definitely an added bonus. Dealing anything upwards of 70% is a win to that cause I would say as we do have plenty on the team that can adequately weaken Amoonguss to that ~35% area before it switches, allowing Latias to KO when it comes in. Psyshock also provides a secondary STAB option which we could effectively spam late game if need be, with no bad side effects. It also does mean that Latias can pick off weakened Chanseys/Blisseys, which doesn't add much to the team as plenty of other members can already do this, but its nice all the same.

    As mentioned by Superpowerdude, and rebutted by yourself, Keldeo can also be a problem for the team. Be it Scarf or CM either could cause problems given not too uncommon scenarios. Basically we are relying on Terrakion to check it, so what if its Scarfed and not running an HP which lowers its speed, dumb I know but it could happen, and we lose the speed tie? Granted Scarf doesn't have the power to outright sweep the remainder of the team, but it would put unfixable dents into the team, allowing for something else to clean up whats left. If it was a CM Keldeo that also had a Sub up, whether it ran Sub itself or was passed it, similar to our strategy, that could also pose problems for Terrakion, as it would have to switch in on either the CM or attack, break the sub and get KO'd. Latias with Psyshock doesn't give two fucks about Keldeo, which I find truly invaluable so I think it definitely should be considered.

    Those are probably the main reasons I'd say Psyshock > HP-Fire, although I guess I may be a little biased from personal preference, however I honestly believe it benefits the team more.

    I think its definitely an option, I would probably say get rid of Rock Slide, even though I love the extra accuracy, it sucks when you leave an Alakazam on 4% and then it OHKOs you back, so I'd say take the lesser accuracy for the more power in this situation. Heck there aren't all that many things that X-Scissor will be too useful on, unless I am right in my forecast that Celebi will see an increase in usage once Genesect goes, so that would also potentially be replaced, as we can just Stone Edge a lot of the things you'd use it on (Espeon, Lati@s). I know X-Scissor is much more preferable, but we could get by without it, only if it was deemed necessary to double up on Rock STAB to ensure we get those attacks to hit to prevent say a Thundurus-T/Tornadus-T sweep.
  7. peng

    peng

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    If we are going to drop anything for Psyshock it should probably be Surf. Ferrothorn is worrying to this team already and leaving Latias unable to hit the most common defensive steel in the game is pretty bad, especially given we have a pretty big rain weakness already. We shouldn't really have too many issues with Heatran given we have Ttar / Gliscor / Keldeo / Terrakion and opposing Tyranitar beat Latias with or without Surf anyway.
  8. ClubbingSealCub

    ClubbingSealCub

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    I have tested psyshock over HP fire and it is imo a bad option. We do need HP fire for Ferrothorn.

    EDIT: Aside from that, the +Speed on Tyranitar is also a pretty good chance, since it lets us pursuit/crunch cheeky Jellicent that think they can just burn us.

    Another thing I'm contemplating is dropping the LO on Latias. We really don't have anything that wants to take a burn. Latias loses 28% of her health every turn while burned (which is just horrible).
  9. emirinho

    emirinho

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    I have tested the team and multiple times i was in bad need for EQ on Terrakion. I think that we should definitely change Rock slide for EQ.

    Another thing is, we need to give speed evs to T-tar as many mentioned above.
    We also need to change Surf-->Psyshock. Surf barely ever helps while Psyshock can deal a lot of damage to fighting type pokemon and to pokemon in general without using Draco meteor and getting a SP.A drop.

    Also, we could think of a better set on Gliscor since the current set's efficiency is not as expected. I suggest using the standard sub/protect Gliscor.
  10. Lavos Spawn

    Lavos Spawn
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    I vehemently dislike this team. The current lineup gets blown to pieces by the most common offensive partnership in OU, LO Tornadus-T and Scarf Keldeo. Bronzong gets worn down by U-Turn and rocks, and once it's below 40% you're done. Also, Latias isn't doing enough work on the defensive side for my liking, and it's literally the only check the team has for Scarf Keldeo. Add that to the fact that it's laughably easy to dispatch it with any Pursuit Tyranitar, and you have yourself a three-step recipe for disaster.

    Step 1: Switch Latias into Keldeo to take the Hydro Pump
    Step 2: Use Surf as Keldeo switches out into Tyranitar
    Step 3A: Realize that your Surf doesn't even 2HKO, attempt to switch out, and die to Pursuit
    OR
    Step 3B: Realize that your Surf doesn't even 2HKO, stay in and go for the 3HKO, and die to Crunch

    From there it's essentially gg, you can't stop Keldeo and other offensive Water-types such as Starmie are going to take a dump on your life from there on out. In fact, after Latias goes down, an offensive Starmie takes out the rest of the team without blinking an eye. The only "check" is Scarf Terrakion, which it can switch out of, so...

    I don't know what to change, but by all means, let's change SOMETHING.
  11. Dragonfruit

    Dragonfruit

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    uhh lavos spawn its ur fault if u get pursuit trapped by ttar just double switch into terrakion or even ttar or bronzong duh. scarf keldeo is vry annoying tho i tried this team again with psyshock on latias which was better but still didnt work as well. with sand and life orb damage scarf keldeo wont take too long to finally take down latias either... but still not everything dies to secret sword / surf and u can do some damage back so its not impossible liek what lavos spawn sed.

    ok well i think bronzong is the most replaceable member itd be nice to have another water resist that sets up stealth rock like celebi idk. i mean bronzong can wall tornadus but tornadus CAN JUST SWITCH OUT!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and then come back later until it just wears bronzong down with hurricane or superpower. then ur fucked and have to rely on terrakion BUT IT CAN JUST SWITCH OUT. celebi wont change much since u urself can just switch out lol... but yeah another water resist would be good just saying
  12. alexwolf

    alexwolf King of Conquerors
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    I used the team for ~10 battles and i didn't like Latias at all. As Lavos Spawn said, Keldeo + Ttar is a bitch, as i said too when nominating Celebi, because it can easily come in on a double switch, Volt-turn, or if Latias kills something, and then trap her. I will use Celebi in this spot and see how it fares... So far Scarf Terrakion, CBTar and Bronzong have beem doing the most job, and i can say that i am pretty satisfied with our choices, so good job CCAT people!

    Gliscor and Keldeo are ok; at some games they are very important and shine quite a bit, with Gliscor gaining momentum, checking stuff, and passing Subs, while Keldeo is sweeping a bit and opening they way for a Terra sweep late game, but in some other games they see very little use, and it's not hard to see why. Gliscor has almost zero safe switch-ins against Rain Offense, which is pretty popular, and HO teams in general are filled with special attackers or Garchomp / Terrakion / Breloom / Dragonite, which Gliscor doesn't like switching in a lot. Keldeo is underused in some games because i don't recklessly bring him in early game, and at late game usually Terrakion cleaned before Keldeo could come in, so the truth is that i need many more games to be able to fully judge Keldeo in the team.

    Stay tuned fore more news :D

    EDIT: I am using 191 Speed on CBTar to outspeed SpD Heatran before it gets a chance to burn me. I also use 308 Speed (216 Spe + Jolly) and Taunt on the 4th slot of Gliscor. On Bronzong i am using Gyro Ball - HP Ice - SR - EQ, as EQ is needed so that Bronzong is not a total free switch-in or setup bait against SubCM Keldeo, Magnezone, Scizor, Jirachi, Starmie, Ninetales, Infernape, Volcarona, Tentacruel, and Lucario.
  13. Ashley11

    Ashley11

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    I decided to try this team, and it is pretty great. I have played I am 8-2 right now and with a rating of 1555, and the only reason i lost two was from a poke that could stall me out because i was being to reckless. I don't see too many problems really, I have just been losing keldeo and latios too fast and getting stalled by a forretress because of it, but that is my fault.

    The MVP of this team right now is stuck between latias and keldeo, as they both do great. No one really expects the draco meteor on latias because it is usually dragon pulse, so i usually get a nice kill that will allow me to sweep with terrakoin. On the other hand, Keldeo completely destroys politoed to help me win the weather battle. I love them both, they are super helpful, though it is sometimes hard to keep latias alive from life orb damage and sandstorm damage. Gliscor is pretty nice too since i can sometimes get up a sub and baton pass. overall, this team is just great.

    I will try to post more after some more battles, probally will try to ladder higher, try to break the top 100
  14. alexwolf

    alexwolf King of Conquerors
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    Ok after a few more games i realized that Ferro in rain is a huge bitch. One more reason to replace Latias with something that deals with Ferro better. I found that Celebi with Leaf Storm / Giga Drain / Grass Knot (i use Grass Knot, which OHKOes BandTar after SR most of the time, while with Leaf Storm it could trap me at -2), Psychic, HP Fire, and Recover, Modest with max SpA, 263 Speed and rest to HP, and LO, puts huge pressure into most offensive and balanced rain teams that lack Jirachi or Blissey / Chansey (many of them). Celebi can threaten every single poke found in such teams and with clever play Ferro can be handled too. If sandstorm is up and Celebi is in the battlefield the opponent will think twice before bringing Toed in, making Ferro unable to switch into Celebi at all. If for some reason Toed manages to come into Celebi, then you can still predict the switch in to Ferro (pretty obvious) and switch into Gliscor / Ttar / Terrakion and do your stuff.
  15. Lavos Spawn

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    if you switch directly out after taking a hydro pump to the face assuming SR is up you'll only be able to take MAYBE 1 more of those before you die, double switching isn't an option because next time keldeo comes in you will be literally swept, gg and all that

    please don't post before thinking
  16. emirinho

    emirinho

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    We can conclude that Latias is a problem of the team as it gets beaten by T-tar and Keldeo. We have 2 possible solutions: We change the defensive core to support Latias or simply change latias into a more viable Pokemon. Maybe, Shaymin could give us what we need because it completely destroys Keldeo and it can fight T-tar which is very nice.
    We could use the same Ev spread Latias has


    The set:
    Shaymin @ Life Orb/Leftovers
    Trait: Natural Cure
    EVs: 72 HP / 184 SpA / 252 Spe
    Timid Nature
    - Synthesis/Rest
    - Seed Flare
    - Earth Power
    - Hidden Power [Fire]

    What do you think?
  17. Pocket

    Pocket Bringing the Afro to Space
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    I am liking the Shaymin suggestion - dgf about neither Keldeo or TTar.

    I would probably go with a more utility set, though, as this also wants to check Chlorophyll sweepers and possibly RP Landorus. At the very least Lefties > Life Orb. Maybe squeeze Tailwind somewhere.
  18. TGMD

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    I'm really not liking Celebi / Shaymin over Latias (I guess I have a biased opinion though, lol.) It really isn't very difficult for Timid Venusaur to sweep us after Tyranitar is trapped by Dugtrio (who is found on like 99% of sun teams.) Shaymin / Celebi can be OHKOd by Sludge Bomb, Keldeo and Terrakion (Terrakion outspeeds Modest variants, but that's why I specified Modest earlier) are OHKOd by Giga Drain, Bronzong can 2HKO with Gyro Ball, but it's 2HKOd by Hidden Power [Fire] (or OHKOd after a Growth), Gliscor's Earthquake can 3HKO with Earthquake, but every time it Earthquakes, Venusaur just regains most of it's health with Giga Drain. In conclusion, Latias is ou sun check, we need it to prevent the likes of Venusaur from sweeping us.
  19. alexwolf

    alexwolf King of Conquerors
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    Here are two replays of the team in action(with LO Celebi):

    http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/oucurrent4662311
    http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/oucurrent4688452

    I don't like Shaymin a lot as it can't do a lot against Dragon and Flying types, particularly Torn-T, Dragonite, Salamence, and Kyurem-B, all big threats. If it goes for HP Ice then Ferro sets up on us all day long, not to mention that Celebi handles better Keldeo in general, due to the Fighting resistance, while Shaymin can succumb to Specs or LO +1 Sacret Sword hits (or even get 2HKOed by Secret Sword from Scarf variants after SR and 1 LO round on Shaymin).

    @TGMD

    You definitely have a point about Timid Venusaur on sun teams. But tbh the Ttar + Keldeo and the Ferro in rain weaknesses we have right now bother me much more than Venusaur as they are more common and harder to play around. Maybe, just maybe, we could replace Terrakion with Sash Alakazam? This way we can revenge kill everything fast at least once, covering Venusaur too, and still have a good cleaner. And to cover Volcarona we can use T-Wave on Zam. So a set of Psyshock / Focus Blast / Hidden Power Ice / Thunder Wave could work maybe... Zam also helps a bit with our Gengar weakness as it doesn't need to become set-up fodder for any hazard setter in order to break its Sub (see Bronzong and Terrakion, our only pokes that can deal with Gengar). Thoughts?

    EDIT: Here is another battle vs Kidogo's stall team: http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/oucurrent4689824
  20. Reymedy

    Reymedy They live and die by my command.
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    Why not Heatran>Bronzong? Thinking about the ShedShell one.
    And if we do Celebi > Latias this start to look like my first RMT huehue (this wasn't so terrible for a first start ^.^)

    I'm supporting strongly all these EVs changes, especially the Gliscor's one by PenguinX (iirc chimpakt also helped for some optimisation), it's the best set for this type of Gliscor.

    With the changes it would be..
    Heatran Celebi Keldeo (Fire Grass Water is good :>) Tyranitar Gliscor Terrakion (triple water weakness meh).

    Bar Bronzong and Keldeo, I played with all these pokemons in my past team, and trust me I spended alot of time.

    My issue was the Rain teams, Keldeo solves it partly, but since he can't really swicth in so much.. we need another Water Resist. Here comes Celebi. Tornadus-T LO will still be a big issue, but by switching to Ttar wisely we should change the weather and prevent him from sweeping (and Heatran can decently take his hits, he wont be Superpowering everybody given the power reduction, with some Def investment Heatran take it pretty nicely by the way).

    And obviously Heatran fix Sun issues with Shed Shell and usually gives a free sub to Gliscor (switch on the EQ, sub then pass to a resistance, you're usually faster).
    I played it so I can tell it works really well.

    It's my opinion on the subject, the team probably looks less sexy after. But I'm loving Celebi in this configuration, and if it's not Celebi, we need a water resist anyway with Keldeo. Hurricane spamming will still do a ton, but with Tyranitar around, the Specs Tornadus-T will think twice before trying to rampage.


    I'm thinking about Kingdra on Terrakion ahah, but I don't have a single clue on this pokemon, it's maybe an awful thing to do. But the *4 resistance to water and fire seemed so good to have xD


    EDIT : Else Empoleon, I suggested it in the very start, no one seems to consider it, but I don't see why it wouldn't be good. Resist Hurricane and Water, along with a *4 resistance to Ice and no weakness to Grass. I'm sure it can fit somewhere, like instead of Bronzong since it can SR too. It's not affected by sand, has a decent SpA/SpD with well rounded HP/Def.
  21. Superpowerdude

    Superpowerdude based wooper #dealwithit
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    the thing about putting Heatran on the team is it makes us even more weak to rain teams. Even if we use Celebi over Latias, a lot of rain teams carry Tornadus-T which without Bronzong would absolutely wreck our team.
  22. emirinho

    emirinho

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    That is also a good option. We will have to decide between coverage and support. Both are good but imo coverage could be better so that Shaymin can eliminate the threats.
    I am not sure what the best set for Shaymin would be.
    Maybe the same set as i mentioned just with more evs on HP?
  23. ganj4lF

    ganj4lF Nobody is safe from the power of science!
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    Just a concern - adding Shaymin won't make us overly reliant on Gliscor to handle Fighting types? Latias / Celebi / whatever was our only resist except Gliscor, and since it already has to lose HP to pass Substitutes, and doesn't carry Protect, we may find ourselves in the situation of having a powerful Fighting attacker (Terrakion? Conkeldurr?) that just wears down Gliscor to the point it can be KO'd on the switch. Having two resistances makes this quite a bit more difficult, especially if the second one has recovery (that Shaymin struggles to have, since both Synthesis and Rest are sub-par).
  24. peng

    peng

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    I'd much rather use Celebi than Shaymin. The pursuit weakness isn't too bad considering we can run Baton Pass instead of U-Turn, plus access to Recover means it actually beats Scarf Keldeo most of the time as its not just worn down.

    Losing Latias means we do become far more sun weak and Ferrothorn becomes even more annoying, but if the general consensus is to change it then Celebi is overall a better choice for this team than Shaymin imo
  25. alexwolf

    alexwolf King of Conquerors
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    How do we become more Ferro weak with Celebi? Celebi fares much better against Ferro than Latias, as it can switch into Leech Seed, doesn't mind T-Wave, and takes much less from Gyro Ball.

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