1. Welcome to Smogon Forums! Please take a minute to read the rules.
  2. Welcome to the Orange Islands! Please remember to read the rules. Come chat with us on our IRC channel and enjoy your stay!
  3. New to the forums? Check out our Mentorship Program!
    Our mentors will answer your questions and help you become a part of the community!

Pokémon BW2 In-game Tier List Mark II [See Post #840]

Discussion in 'Orange Islands' started by SuperJOCKE, Oct 8, 2012.

  1. Alice in Strings

    Alice in Strings

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2012
    Messages:
    233
    The problem is that it doesn't OHKO shit. Let me point out that Frustration LOSES POWER the longer you walk around. Saying that it has a powerful Frustration doesn't mean very much when Return is just so much better because it gains power the more you walk around.

    If you're saying that Azurill OHKOs things, then let me point out every other Normal type you can get that has at least 40 Base Attack.

    Lillipup has Base 60 Attack. It doesn't OHKO shit, even with Return.

    Patrat has 55 Base Attack. It doesn't OHKO shit.

    Remember people bashing Purrloin? It has 50 Base Attack. AKA, more than Azurill with Huge Power.

    Azurill is utter trash when compared to other Normal types you could be using. I really want to know what sort of Pokemon you were "OHKO"ing with Azurill, and what level, because if something with nearly DOUBLE its base Attack can't OHKO things, then how can Azurill? Stating that you get an early Marill doesn't mean much when the only thing that Marill has any use for is killing Wild Sandile and Darumaka in the desert. Again, I am NOT hunting for a Huge Power Azurill when having one really doesn't make a difference in the long run.

    Scraggy is difficult to find, but it utterly destroys the E4 with its duel STAB and is a reliable Gym killer for the entire time you have it. Without Moxie, its still pretty damn good, getting early HJK and the game being nice enough to give you an early Wide Lens.

    Magnezone has 13, count em, 13 Resistances. It also has decent bulk, and its easy to find a Sturdy Magnemite, meaning that Magnezone usually gets one free hit in against something it shouldn't be fighting anyway.

    Darumaka hits like a truck, and outclasses every other Fire type in terms of availability and sheer power.

    Azumarill, no matter where you get it, does none of these things. It doesn't utterly thrash most of the Gym Leaders (Scraggy doesn't fear Clay, Drayden, Colress, GHETSIS (which is huge), Marlon, your rival, Grimsley, Caitlin, Shauntel, and Iris (though he'll need a bit of help)) Top tier is for things that make the game infinitely easier, and babying an Azurill that CANNOT OHKO THINGS EVEN WITH RETURN OR FRUSTRATION does. What happens if Azurill DOESN'T evolve at Level 17? You're stuck with Azurill for another couple of levels.

    Let me make this clear, if PURRLOIN is being considered for Bottom Tier, and no one wants to use it, then what does Azurill have over it? Evolving to get something you can find in the wild fairly easily just when you need it?

    What I'm reading, is someone who love Azurill way too much. I would much rather have something that contributes something to the team, such as...you know...Mareep, Magnemite, or Riolu...or you know...Lillipup.

    It's stupidly easy to find Lillipup. It's not so easy to find a Huge Power Azurill that doesn't have any use for a good portion of the game.





    Arguing Gothita for Mid, too. It has better bulk than Reunicles and is faster. I didn't have much trouble using it at all, and it was generally useful for the whole game. Getting Energy Ball and Charge Beam was nice. I feel that wherever Reunicles is, Gothitelle should be right next to it.
  2. Wobbanaut

    Wobbanaut

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2012
    Messages:
    983
    I would like to add thimgs about Dunsparce
    For one why would I want to go searching around in Rustling Grass hoping for that 5% chance when I could just catch a Lillipup and destroy things with STAB Tackle. Dunsparce is also pitifully slow and isn't exactly bulky. Fine early game its /relatively/ good but when you start to lose all usefulness when you get to Burgh it obviously isn't worth catching. Finally Coil and Roost don't redeem Dunsparce late game they give you a false ray of hope that Dunsparce might be good but honestly Roost is outclassed by Hyper Potions considering Dunsparce's speed and trying to set up with Dunsparce isnt gonna work at all. All in all it should be Low Tier at best but mid tier is just too much
    Sorry for poor posting quality on phone
  3. The Cicada

    The Cicada

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2010
    Messages:
    899

    I said Azumarill ohkos shit, not Azurill

    it really sounds like ur judging it w/o using it. Mine never lost its use.
  4. Alice in Strings

    Alice in Strings

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2012
    Messages:
    233

    Again, why grab Azurill then? It's still not Top Tier, because if it were, then Medicham would have been Top Tier in Gen 4. It doesn't make the game infinitely easier.

    I'm not arguing that Azumarill is a decent Pokemon, I'm arguing that Azurill doesn't deserve Top tier (Azumarill doesn't either, but...)

    You can grab a Marill before Gym 5, which is the first time you might want to consider a Water type. Why would you want to use Azurill? Alternately, you can grab Ducklett, which is much better than its stats imply.

    And you DID say that Azurill OHKO'd things.

    I find it hard to believe you soloed Burgh with it when he still has his Leavanny which outdamages Marill anyway. Please provide some sort of evidence other than "it OHKOs things" because I've already stated that it doesn't. What does it do that sets it apart from other things? If you can't answer that, then it doesnt deserve Top, or even High tier.
  5. IOS

    IOS

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2010
    Messages:
    127
    Azurill will have more attack than Lillipup. Huge Power doubles their actual attack stat, not their base attack stat.

    At Level 10, if both have 15 IVs, no EVs and a neutral nature, Azurill has 20 attack, while Lilipup has 18.

    Here's the stat comparison actually:
    Lilipup: 30 HP, 18 Atk, 15 Def, 11 Spatk, 15 SpDef, 17 Speed
    Azurill: 31 HP, 20 Atk, 14 Def, 10 Spatk, 14 SpDef, 10 Speed

    Azurill's only problem is that it's slow (which is really its main problem throughout the entire game).
  6. Raikaria

    Raikaria

    Joined:
    May 20, 2009
    Messages:
    1,310
    Thinking about it, yeah, he should probably be bottom, because his evolution is too late.

    The difference is Sunkern is complete and utter dead weight. Sunflora is slow and frail as hell as well. OK, bearly anything is survivng two hits from Petal Dance. But what's Sunflora taking ONE hit from with 75/55/80 bulk and the Grass typing which gives it a buttload of weaknesses? Let alone two.

    Also base 30 speed means you ain't hitting first.

    For the Medicore at absolute best Sunflora, you have to give up a somewhat limited resource that can be far better spent on something that completely outclasses Sunflora, and you're stuck with utter dead weight for 3 Gyms. Not worth it. At all. There is no justification to use Sunflora at all besides 'It's cool'. [Which it isn't.] It's bottom because it brings nothing of value, and you're lumped with the useless Sunkern forever, which in all honestly would probably lose to Purrloin.

    On Dunsparce:

    100/70/65 isn't *super* tanky, but for the stage of the game you get Dunsparce, it's good.

    Dunsparce is a Disc 1 Nuke. It's not supposed to destroy lategame. Purrloin is bottom because it's useless in all stages of the game. Dunsparce is not. As I said before, it can solo through Roxie and Burgh, to where you can catch the stuff you actually might want to use. Minimal grinding required, if any, outside of trainers.

    Also, money is a somewhat finite resource, unless you'll farm for items to sell, or farm Breeders who give almost nothing. Thus, Roost has merit. *Also using Roost is faster than looking for that Potion and then the animation but that's somewhat moot*
  7. bwburke94

    bwburke94

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2010
    Messages:
    193
    Re: Azurill

    I'm just going to point something out here: assuming no intentional EV training, you don't get any benefit from training Azumarill up from an Azurill as compared to a Marill. The argument for using an Azurill is based off how early it can be obtained - but its stats are so low before it's fully evolved, so it's going to have lots of problems in the early game unless you run around for five hours that you can better use at PWT grinding for BP/shards.
  8. The Cicada

    The Cicada

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2010
    Messages:
    899

    Why not grab Azurill? It comes with a 105 base stab move in frustration, and huge power to double its attack, as an Azurill it has no problem beating stuff up till it evolves, then it gets a very early Aqua Tail, and very early evolution into Azumarill.

    Yet you act like Azurill is a freaking purrloin or something...........


    @bwbruke: no, it has no problems early game at all. just use it yourself and find out.
  9. IOS

    IOS

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2010
    Messages:
    127
    I'd like to point out that Azumarill is pretty nuts when it evolves. Look at the Colress battle:

    Lvl 23 Azumarill (Docile, 15 IVs, 15 EVs): 64 Atk, 32 Spd

    Lvl 21 Magnemite (Docile, 15 IVs, 0 EVs): 44 HP, 37 Def, 27 Spd
    Lvl 23 Klink (Docile, 15 IVs, 0 EVs): 54 HP, 40 Def, 22 Spd

    Azumarill does 52-61 damage to Magnemite and 48-57 damage to Klink with Aqua Tail and a Mystic Water, so an OHKO against Magnemite and potential OHKO against Klink. These guys aren't exactly slouches defensively, and he doesn't even hit either for effective damage. Pretty impressive.

    It's just its sheer power that makes him worth using before the Route 6 Marill.
  10. The Cicada

    The Cicada

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2010
    Messages:
    899
    Theres simply no reason to wait till route 6 to use it when it evolves so fcking early and doesnt even need any babying b4 evolving.
  11. Kokukirin

    Kokukirin

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2004
    Messages:
    37
    Azurill does not need any babying before it evolves. STAB Frustration/Return with Huge Power gives it decent attacking power by early game standard, and Charm takes care of the mainly physical attackers. If you start with Snivy like me, chances are you will find Azurill a great member of your team from the start. The only time it seems to struggle is around Gym 2. And we can all agree how awesome Azumarill is for the rest of the game. I would certainly put Azurill in High Tier category.

    I also gave Skorupi/Drapion a try on my first E4 run because I came across an Adamant one by chance. It comes rather late, so before it evolves, its stats are too low for most wild pokemon and must rely on Exp Share. As Drapion it has good def and speed, an acceptable attack, and almost no weaknesses. But even with Scope Lens and Night Slash the critical hits rarely happen when needed. The best use I have for it is to lead with Toxic Spikes. Against E4 it can easily throw down 2 layers. It has type advantage over 2 of them as well, making it quite useful. But overall the reward is not big enough to offset the early effort. So Skorupi to Low Tier it is.
  12. TM13IceBeam

    TM13IceBeam

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2010
    Messages:
    3,586
    actually, i'd prefer waiting until route 6 mostly because marill's useless for half of the major battles, plus not using azurill early on allows me to devote the resources to training something else in a quicker manner (Elekid, Mareep, Lillipup and Sewaddle are all pretty viable)
  13. Alice in Strings

    Alice in Strings

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2012
    Messages:
    233
    Are you reading my statements at all? Frustration LOSES POWER the more you walk. It will NEVER be "105 base power" (it's 102 at the max, btw), because its base Happiness is 72.

    Again, I point out the frustration in finding a Huge Power Azurill when I could just devote my resources into the many wild Lillipups. Frankly, if Dunsparce is being considered for Bottom Tier because of its rarity, then Huge Power Azurill shouldn't even be close to Top Tier. For something to be Top Tier, it needs to be viable even without a beneficial ability. Azurill doesn't do that, because Thick Fat Azurill is a huge joke.
  14. Its_A_Random

    Its_A_Random Returns true
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributor
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2010
    Messages:
    2,147
    ...Which is why after the first gym, you shift to Return over Frustration, which increases in power as the game wears on.

    That said, I used Huge Power Azurill in my run of B2, & basically, despite the ~7.5% chance of getting one, it was definitely worth it imo, Return was such a powerful weapon for it, that it destroyed many things, & by the time it became Azumarill & got Aqua Tail, it was basically set. Sure it is slow, but it is rather bulky, plus the insane power really made it a powerhouse on my team. The fact that I slapped a Leftovers did kinda make me think it is bulkier though, but w/e.

    Azurill definitely is not Top tier material, I agree, but it is definitely High Tier material, imo.

    Additionally, I definitely agree that Dunsparce is Bottom Tier. Basically, Run Away is handy, but only if you want to run away from things, which you could easily do with something else. . .I suppose you could run Serene Grace with Glare/Rock Slide/Return/Filler, but even then, it will not get you really far, unless you are incredibly lucky...It is a pretty okay mon early game, but as the game wears on, it just...becomes outclassed...and terrible...From what I have heard from DHR-107 on IRC, I cannot agree more with Dunsparce being Bottom Tier.
  15. Layell

    Layell Alas poor Yorick, I knew him, Peter Gabriel too!
    is an Artistis a Forum Moderatoris a Pokemon Researcheris a Smogon Media Contributoris a Community Contributor Alumnus
    Sprite Leader

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2006
    Messages:
    3,049
    As someone who argued for Petilil to be top in bw I was eager to try it out again. There are many similar problems for Petilil in that it doesn't like Elesa, or Skyla for that matter. However once again Black 2 has an excellent ingame trade of it with a good nature and great IV's and delicious 1.5 experience. The trade is a beast with Own Tempo since you won't get confused with Petal Dance. Coverage is certainly awful so you won't be soloing anything but if you are fighting a team that has grass resists just quiver dance up then petal dance. Evolve it after level 26 having learned Giga Drain with a sun stone from Nimbassa and you'll be set. Once again I'll say top with the provision that the B2 ingame trade will take less training time than most other mons.

    If someone has played with Petilil in white that would be helpful too because I can imagine a wild one may not be as good.
  16. The Cicada

    The Cicada

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2010
    Messages:
    899
    I've never had any problems finding huge power Azurill. Yes you can get a lillipup in the same area, but does it evolve into the bulky powerhouse known as Azumarill as early as level 18? And seriously, stop fcking acting like frustration is so weak. When you beat Cheren, you get Return, and by then you should be at almost max hapiness.
  17. IOS

    IOS

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2010
    Messages:
    127
    There hasn't been any real standard at all in terms of rarity. Scraggy is currently top tier despite having a 5% encounter rate and a 50% shot of getting the right ability on top of that. Azurill has a 20% encounter rate in comparison. You'll be encountering it so often, you shouldn't have any problems finding a Huge Power one.

    EDIT: You'll get into forced encounters with them too, since Repels aren't available at the ranch.
  18. Antihaxxer

    Antihaxxer

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2012
    Messages:
    424
    Seriously, Azurill/Marill/Azumarill are high tier that's all. The speed problem means that he can't be a top tier. Scrafty is also slow but he has better bulk
  19. TM13IceBeam

    TM13IceBeam

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2010
    Messages:
    3,586
    shed skin scrafty is actually useful if you don't want to stock on full restores, since hypers are way cheaper and still do the same shit

    but yeah
  20. Alice in Strings

    Alice in Strings

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2012
    Messages:
    233
    Frustration has always been crap. This is pretty common knowledge. A move that loses power the more you bond with your Pokemon? I'll pass.


    Bulky powerhouse huh? I get Herdier at Level 16, and Watchog is pretty damn good for an early game nuke. If your argument is that Azumarill is an early game nuke that outclasses Watchog (who gets Crunch and also gets Return and retains STAB on it), then...I dunno.

    Back on Scrafty, HJK is just so overly destructive that Scrafty still functions extremely well with Shed Skin.

    I'd be fine with High, but I think it's pretty much accepted that Azurill won't be Top Tier.

    I'm arguing Patrat for Upper Low-Lower Mid due to it being an effective Disc One Nuke, much like Lillipup was in B/W. I'll continue testing it, but it's still holding its own in Nimbasa. It utterly destroyed most of the things it encountered, but it does have a bit of trouble against Gym 1 (Challenge Mode) due to lack of a good STAB. Once it got Return...well...I soloed Roxie with it, if that tells you anything. Challenge Mode Roxie, to be specific. I don't think it'll hold up to Endgame, but its doing pretty well as a Disc One nuke. Access to Confuse Ray and Hypnosis help it out, too. Problem is, again, it kinda...I don't know how well it'll do for the rest of the game.
  21. The Cicada

    The Cicada

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2010
    Messages:
    899
    You keep talking about frustration losing power over time. Everybody knows it loses power. Doesn't stop it from being insanely powerful at that point of the game when you get it. When you see Frustrations power has gotten low, it's not hard to start using Return instead.

    How the hell do Herdier and Watchog compare to Azumarill? Those are NORMAL types, and Azumarill is a WATER type, and Azumarills Aqua taill hits far harder than Herdier and Watchogs Return, while also actually being able to hit stuff for SE damage....


    Your arguments make no sense at all
  22. Alice in Strings

    Alice in Strings

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2012
    Messages:
    233
    You are arguing that Azumarill hits things hard. I am pointing out two other things that hit things hard as well. One still gets to evolve, and has incredible coverage when it fully evolves (and it also gets Superpower), and the other is something that does incredibly well early on. Your argument this time was that Azumarill was extremely good early on. I provided two other examples of things that are more common and also do a great job early on, one of which still retains use throughout the game. (Aqua Tail also doesn't have 100% Accuracy, but that's just me nitpicking)

    I'd ask again if you actually bother to read my whole post, and process what I'm saying, but...I've already asked that already. At this point, I'm simply going to drop the argument, because we have already established that High tier is the highest Azurill is going. There is no point in arguing about it any further.
  23. The Cicada

    The Cicada

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2010
    Messages:
    899

    How does Herdier being good affect Azumarill in any way?
  24. Alice in Strings

    Alice in Strings

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2012
    Messages:
    233
    Two things: A) Drop it, and quit arguing, and B) Please read my post before asking questions like that.
  25. SimicCombine

    SimicCombine

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2010
    Messages:
    112
    Early game, right when Frustration is starting to get weak, you get Return. The early game (when you have Azurill) is essentially all Tackle spam where high attack and normal STAB give you a sizable advantage. Most things aren't 1HKO's, and speed stats are terrible, so Lillipup/Azurill are essentially pushes. Azurill easily pulled its weight early game, lagged a bit when it evolved and lost the STAB, then just started wrecking stuff when it learned Aqua Tail.

    I'm only midgame in my playthrough, but lower high/upper mid tier easily.

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)