Separate names with a comma.
Discussion in 'Orange Islands' started by SuperJOCKE, Oct 8, 2012.
This was much the same as my experience using Azurill. Easily High.
Cuz you know your arguments make no sense. gg, thecicada wins again
Azurill is easily high/top.
while i do agree with high azurill, i find the overemphasis of shit frustration pretty disturbing >.>
Let's start with some simple math
assuming that for a given level of happiness, frustration and return has the same power.
therefore, for happiness H, (255-H)/2.5 = H/2.5
hence 255-H = H, 2H = 255 and H = 127.5
Rounding this down to 127, we see that Frustration/Return's BP at worst, assuming you switch at approximately the correct time, is just around the BP of Tackle (50 vs... 50.8, which rounds down to 50. yay???). Therefore, theoretically, you will never be weaker than Tackle when using Frustration/Return. At worst, you are just using what's basically Tackle, and after that stage you should change to Return, and you will start seeing dramatic returns.
Herdier is also good, but eventually how I'd feel is
Earlygame: Azurill >= Lillipup
Midgame: Marill/Azumarill < Herdier
Endgame : Azumarill > Stoutland
IMO what's keeping Azumarill from top is the rather below-average speed, a complete wuss without Huge Power, and pretty much pointless against Burgh and Elesa, the two gyms whereby it should be around/at Azumarill already. Frustration has nothing to do with it...
that's not even taking into account how R6 Marill shits all over F/R due to Double Edge
My arguments make perfect sense, I'm only trying to prevent this from becoming a flame war, which is simply what its escalating to. Perhaps if you bothered to actually read my posts instead of seeing "azurill is shit" and note that I do compliment it on having Huge Power, and being great as an Azumarill, things would be different.
I may have been a bit harsh on Frustration, I'm willing to admit that. Yes, I'm saying that I'm wrong. I'm not afraid to admit when I'm wrong. Seeing those calcs did help, though my experience with Frustration was less than neato.
Also, Lillipup gets a really early Take Down, if that makes a difference (it really shouldn't, thanks to what TM13 said).
Now then...back on track, I could see Unaware Woobat being put in Mid Tier. Flying and Psychic are great STABs for this game, considering the amount of Fighting, Poison, and Grass types you see. Props for coming just before Burgh and staying relevent throughout the game. I'm also taking into account the fact that if you accidently let something buff up, it can come in and not care if it tries to set up. I used Swoobat in B/W, and it was really useful. Early TwistedSpoon (right before you get it, in fact) also helps it.
Pidove has also been impressing me. It's basically Pidgey that gets Special moves by level up. I really haven't had trouble using it at all, and STAB Return is always nice.
Unfortunately, Yamask is failing to impress me. I remember in B/W, I loved my Yamask. Here, even with Eviolite, I'm having trouble keeping it in the game, even with Will-o-wisp support. It's also a pain in the butt to grind thanks to having mainly Ghost type moves. I tried giving it Return, but the damage it dealt with it against Audino was pathetic...I hope Cofagrigus does a better job of impressing me.
Minccino - High/Top Tier
Availability: A Skill Link Minccino is available at Route 5, as the only fixed Hidden Grotto spawn
Stats: It can hardly take a hit with its bad defenses, but it's Attack stat is good enough for its movepool and it's fast even with a Speed-hindering nature, thanks to the AI having un-EVd pokémon
Typing: Normal. It doesn't give anything notable but a Ghost immunity and STAB on Tail Slap
Movepool: LOL. Who needs an extensive movepool when you get everything you need in 4/5 moves? Minccino has some problems in its movepool, starting with the rather average Doubleslap (But getting Tail Slap quickly), the useless Swift and two support moves. Cinccino gets Bullet Seed and Rock Blast through the Move Relearner, but even someone doing a Speedrun will have enough Heart Scales to get both moves. With Tail Slap (Better with a Silk Scarf equipped) and the aforementioned moves, it will 2HKO (If not outright OHKO) so many pokémon it's ridiculous. At the cost of 8 Blue Shards, it can get Aqua Tail in Lentimas Town, giving it a rather reliable option to attack Steel-types, if you don't like Wake-Up Slap
Major Battles: Finding a battle in which Cinccino is not useful is difficult, if not completely impossible. It may have its hardest time against Elesa, because you may not have a Shiny Stone at that time, unless you were really lucky searching for stones at caves. Other than that, the only other difficult opponent you may find is Marshal and his bulky Fighting-types. Everything else will be in a world of hurt. Cinccino may not 6-0 any opponent, but it will get a nice number of KOs before it takes a hit
Additional Comments: The only problems it has are its movepool as a Minccino and the unavailability of King's Rock before beating the game, but the pros heavily outweigh the cons. I just don't want to think how things would have been if Cinccino could flinch everything that wasn't OHKOed to death...
Yeah, Pidove is amazing. I solo'd most of the game with Return (I was trying to catch a Riolu so it had huge amounts of power really early).
And Yamask suffers from the same problems it did in BW - low Speed, bad movepool, made for Stall. Done and done, low tier.
So, I went ahead and updated the OP with those Pokémon whose placement everyone seem to agree on. I've been going by the "three votes criteria" here as well.
If you feel that any of these few Pokémon are placed in the wrong tier, feel free to point that out with an argument that supports it. Saying "This Pokémon doesn't belong in that tier" and nothing else won't change anything.
Also, the general consensus seem to be that the Pokémon brought up in this post should be placed directly into the Bottom Tier. Again, if you feel it has been placed in the wrong tier, feel free to argue for it. The same thing as above applies here as well.
I will probably also propose more Pokémon for direct tier placement in the lower tiers (Low & Bottom) in the future, so look out for that.
On a final note, while I like that you guys keep the discussion going, please be a little more civilized when doing so. I've seen some questionable posts and they don't help me in compiling this list at all.
And until next time, carry on with the discussion. :)
Alright, Azurill to High Tier then.
Jocke u forgot to put Azurill in high. we all agreed on that
I'll make the case for one of the bottoms: Castform. Low accessibility, wide movepool, terrible stats, no evolution, bad typing, terrible defenses, useless ability (unless you're patient)...the list goes on and on.
Minccino seems to be missing from the tiers in the OP.
I think the only thing it has going for it is having access to Thunder, Blizzard and Fire Blast by Level Up.
it's not really a thing going for it considering you SHOULD have the TMs by the time it gets the moves (which is uh... L50?)
the only thing it really has is Hydro Pump (not thunder although it gets the tm) but again it's really bad, it needs weather to do something, and you literally get the weather TMs in the next town anyway, and the 120BP TMs come just before the 7th gym, where your expected levels are around L45. castform's only unique point is hydro pump which is not going to save it (it's even weaker than return outside of rain!)
castform for bottom, just not worth it, whatever it does can be accomplished by TMs that are acquired just a bit later, and during then you can do without said TMs nor weather support.
Level 40, according to Bulbapedia (which would explain why I got nailed by Blizzard around Driftveil). I completely agree with you and everyone else, I just kinda...wanted to offer some sort of defense for the little boob cloud.
But you're definitely right. If anything, Thermo has a cool ability. I also wouldn't call Normal a bad typing (Weak to only one element? Immune to another? Remember just how amazing Normal was in Gen 1?)
I suppose since I'm the resident Flareon lover, I should be the one to do Flareon.
Flareon - Low Tier
Availability:You'll be able to find an Eevee in Castelia City. However, in order to access it, you have to go through the Castelia Sewers first. A Fire Stone is available in the Desert Resort, but only AFTER you deal with Burgh.
Stats: Think of Flareon like Heavy Weapons guy from Team Fortress 2. Slow, usually killed quickly, but extremely powerful. 130 Base Attack is crazy for an early Pokemon, and 95 Base Sp Atk (the same as Gothitelle) means that it can hit from both sides of the spectrum. Base 110 SpDef is really nice, and means that Flareon isn't just a slow Glass Cannon.
Typing: Fire's a cool typing to have, as its great offensively, which is what Flareon's built for. Thanks to its only ability "Flash Fire", it's also immune to Fire type attacks, which is pretty nifty, as Flareon can kill most Fire types it comes across fairly easily.
Movepool: Remember the phrase "Flareon has no moves?" It still applies, but not nearly as much as it did before. Flareon got some new toys to play with in B2/W2, including something that Flareon's been dying to have for ages. That something is Superpower. Flareon gets Superpower via Move Tutor. Suddenly, Flareon can use its stellar Attack stat to do some amazing damage. It also obviously gets Return and Iron Tail. Sadly, Flareon has ONE thing that it really does miss; Flame Charge. Flame Charge would have fixed Flareon's speed problem for the most part, and Flame Charge is sadly, post game. Unlike Vaporeon, Flareon isn't really disadvantaged by missing Bite, but comes at just the right time to grab Fire Fang. Flareon also packs Lava Plume later on, meaning it can function as a mixed attacker. Sadly, Flareon doesn't get Flare Blitz, but it got toys that it can work with.
Major Battles: Flareon actually does well in most battles that need a Fire type. The big thing that really hurts it is that gosh darn low speed it has. It misses out on Burgh, unfortunately, since you get your first Fire Stone from the Desert Resort. Elesa's not too bad, since Flareon has a great SpDef stat and also packs Fire Fang now. Clay himself has Excadrill to destroy, provided Excadrill wastes its turn to use Hone Claws. Skyla's not terribly hard, though watch out for Swanna. Flareon has no business playing with Drayden, and just like any other Fire type, Flareon eats Colress alive. Ghetsis on the other hand...you probably only stand a chance against his Cofagrigus. Finally, the E4 has two members that Flareon can do well against. Grimsley has Dark types, which translates to Superpower , or you can simply use it to destroy his Bisharp. If you reteach Flareon Bite, it can also go toe to toe with some of Shauntel's Ghosts (Chandelure comes to mind, switch in on a Fire type move and you're golden), and can also contribute a bit to the battle with Caitlin if it wants. Keep it away from Iris and Marshall, though.
Additional Comments: Flareon's biggest flaw is that wretched Speed stat. Its defenses wouldn't matter so much if that Speed were just a tad higher. Flareon surprisingly doesn't really suffer from a bad movepool; it has just enough to function, and grabbing Superpower was a nice treat. The biggest problem for Flareon is that...well...Arcanine and Darmanitan exist in this game, too, and Arcanine is faster, bulkier, easier to find, easier to catch, has virtually the same movepool, and also can pack Flash Fire. Arcanine also plays Mixed better thanks to its somewhat more balanced stats.
Growlithe is in Mid.
If Arcanine completely outclasses Flareon, Flareon should be Low, not Mid. There is absolutely no reason to use Flareon over Arcanine except 'I like Flareon'. Having them in the same teir implies Flareon and Growlithe are similar in potential in-game when that is horribly far from the truth.
Also, being slow is quite painful for an in-game run, since that means you take more hits so have to go and heal more often.
Superpower isn't exactly great with 5PP and requiring a switch out, also, it comes at Lentimas, which is after the 6th Gym, and requires shard farming. Fire Fang is not a good move to have as your main STAB forever.
For some reason, I thought Superpower was in Driftveil. Being slow isn't terrible, though. 60 base speed isn't terrible; Magnezone, Sandslash, Gothitelle, and Scrafty all have the same base speed or lower (not entirely sure on Slash and Zone, but sure on 'telle and Scrafty), and it wasn't a huge problem. The problem is bulk. Flareon has decent Special bulk, and trash physical bulk.
If we do like you say, then Sandslash would be in Low because it's outclassed by every other Ground type in the game bar the obvious. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Low is for things that need significant help to get through the game or aren't efficient. Adaptability Eevee is actually quite good, and Flash Fire is incredibly useful for switching in on things that it normally couldn't beat. 130 Base Attack is really freaking good, so the low power on Fire Fang isn't a problem for the most part.
You seem to have missed the Base 95 Special Attack stat as well, which is quite good. It gets Lava Plume, which has a good burn chance, and when that gets weak, it gets Flamethrower. As for Superpower, I always pictured it and used it like Close Combat. They're virtually the same for Flareon, so I don't see what the problem with having a gigantic hit land and switching out. You do the same with Close Combat, because the two stat drops are painful. I'll also mention that Giga Impact hits incredibly hard with Flareon, and its one of the better users of Giga Impact in the game, thanks to its 130 Base Attack.
I'd like to hear someone else's argument on whether Flare should be Low Tier or not. I am considering it, based on the fact that Superpower is found a lot later than I remembered it being found.
I'd like to hear how earlygame Gothita fairs, since I got mine as a Gothorita in the Strange House. I believe that Gothitelle is easily mid tier thanks to having better speed and better bulk than Reunicles (and not having to throw Quick Claw on it to have it outspeed stuff) but lower SpAtk.
I would consider putting Flareon in low actually. 130 base attack might sound good, but fire fang really hurts. Other fire types hit much harder thanks to moves like flare blitz, or high special attack. Giga Impact comes really late. Giga Impact at Shopping Mall 9 for 90000 dollar is a lot and only just before the eight gym and is not really recommended as it gives the opponent a free turn (unless you finish them of course) Superpower comes mid game, so that is not too bad. This might be the only thing keeping it from being low, but I could argue that both EMboar and Darmanitan get Superpower too and hit harder than flareon.
Gothitelle is actually less bulky than reuniclus. Gothitelle has bulk of 70/95/110 and reuniclus has 110/75/85. Reuniclus also hits harder. The only thing it has over reuniclus is better speed. It is still quite good though, so I would keep it in mid tier.
When considering how bulky something is, I always use Speed as well for in-game. Reunicles has a pathetic base 30 speed, meaning it'll get hit every single time. Gothitelle has 60, which means its less likely to get outsped. It also means that Gothitelle can use TwistedSpoon rather than having to be basically forced to run Quick Claw to make up for that atrocious speed.
Hearing both of your opinions has convinced me that my fave Eeveelution is Low. It can hold its own, but not having a good STAB Fire move hurts it.
I'd like to make a case for Skarmory for Mid. You get it right after Skyla, at Reversal Mountain, fairly late in the game, but its really handy for Drayden's gym as the only thing that his Pokemon can do to it is phaze it out with Dragon Tail, since all of them have physical moves. After that, it's nice for Marshal, (and Grimsley's Scrafty to a lesser extent.) You can teach it Roost in Humilau City, and it shouldn't be hard because that tutor is the last in the main story, so you had the whole game to get 6 Yellow Shards. Plus, its a great HM slave because it can learn Cut (not really necessary but nice to have a shortcut past tall grass), Fly, and even Flash if you want it to.
Roost is just a waste of a moveslot because restorative items exist, really.
Skarmory's problem is that while it walls a lot of things thanks to its typing (not so much endgame though), it doesn't really deal adequate damage back. Fly is its strongest STAB, and takes two turns to be used, which allows Haxorus in the gym you mention to set itself up with Dragon Dance while not really taking much damage back (once every two turns no less).
Against Marshall, Skarmory takes neutral damage from powerful fighting-type moves (some of them should outspeed you too) and Fly requiring charging allows Conkeldurr to use Bulk Up and activate Flame Orb, making him very hard to take down.
It's just not dealing enough damage in the important battles; the best thing it can do is use Metal Sound and switch out to a special attacker.
I wanna take this up with everyone.
Flame Orb is Challenge Mode only. We are only tiering after what exists in Normal Mode, where, for example, Conkeldurr is holding Sitrus Berry.
Stats: Decent, relatively good bulk and attack, the high speed isn't exactly necessary though....
Typing: Poison/ Flying is great, dealing with the plethora of Fighting types in the game
Availability: Castelia Sewers, Castelia City - Common
Movepool: Zubat's movepool is somewhat shallow, it gets Wing Attack and Bite when caught, Confuse Ray at ~Lvl20 which is useful for occasional situations and STAB Acrobatics is amazingly powerful, at the cost of no items, and it learns Fly. Don't teach it any special moves as they're really weak.
Major Battles: It does great against Burgh's Gym, just watch for the Dwebbles though. Completely useless against Colress and Elesa though, unless you want to confuse spam them. Doesn't fare too well against Clay as Excadrill kills it. Doesn't do too well against Skyla either, but it does get Acrobatics by then which is incredibly powerful. It does suprisingly well against Drayden though, during my playthrough I was planning on using it as a confusion fodder but I ended up KOing his Druddigon AND Flygon with Confuse Ray + Acrobatics. Average against Marlon, but its better to use your Grass or Electric type to sweep. Team Plasma is where Crobat truly shines, with the majority of them using Poisons and Darks which are easily 2HKOed by Acrobatics (except for that "Bisharp Woman" Grunt who doesn't even have a Bisharp) and takes out the Poisons in Ghetsis's team. Again, don't use it against Colress. It can pretty much take Victory Road as the majority of the outer part is filled with Martial Artists and Fightings. Does good against Marshall as it can OHKO most of his guys with Acrobatics, Average against the rest of the Elite Four.
Additional Comments: Despite being one of the most annoying Pokemons for the past 5 generations, it's pretty good in this game due to the number of Fighting and Poisons in the game. It pairs well with Snivy, as they both cover each others counters and it evolves to Crobat at around Lvl30. Overall, if you want a Flyer which evolves early and don't care about items then use Zubat.
Conkeldurr is even harder to take down without Flame Orb since he doesn't get burn residual, doesn't he? Besides, you probably should be using psychic special attacks for Marshall, judging by Conkeldurr's good defense stat alone.
i really only think skarmory's good point is spikes, which helps against a certain enemy, except you can accomplish that too by using some shit like generic boldore from twist mountain. skarmory can also help with drayden... by... uh... spikestall? when the blizzard tm is just so conveniently available and even more conveniently available is the squadron of water pokemon on the way to drayden.
skarmory's role as a defensive mon is kind of moot when you could beat the game faster with say, everything else. the best you can get is a reliable physical wall for drayden and spikestacker to make iris's haxorus more bearable.
HM slaves are completely unnecessary in BW2 aside from Surf and Strength, both of which are decent attacks to use. Besides, pokemon from earlygame can already use both (herdier, psyduck) so it's not really important either: just backtrack for one if you really need it.
also cut doesn't cut grass in this game
Zubat pairs well with Zorua because they don't share any weaknesses, and Zubat, in fact, resists Zorua's (And that's VERY important with Illusion), and it's particularly useful against psychic pokémon
If a Crobat is in the sixth slot, Zoroark can take on Caitlin's entire team and stay unscathed until the very end
I used Skarmory in my play, I managed to set up 3 layers of Spikes on various leaders such as Marshal.
Defensive Pokemon are rarely useful for in game runs ... Spikes just remove Sturdy from Sawk ... ?