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Pokémon BW2 In-game Tier List Mark II [See Post #840]

Discussion in 'Orange Islands' started by SuperJOCKE, Oct 8, 2012.

  1. Alice in Strings

    Alice in Strings

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    Surprisingly, 58 Base speed usually was just fine for in-game. (Sandy has 75, while 'zone has 60) You have a 10% chance of missing with HJK, which turns into 1% with Wide Lens.

    Lets look at the status ailments for a sec:

    Burn: With Guts, raises attack and causes constant damage
    Poison: Boosts attack and constant damage with Guts
    Paralysis (aka, the most common one): Prevents you from moving half the time while boosting your attack with Guts
    Freeze: Rare, but you can't do anything about it other than wait it out.


    I really don't feel like dealing with Paralysis, though I'll admit, Guts has its uses. I just feel Shed Skin is superior.

    Thing is, if we're arguing about who outclasses who, then Scrafty gets STAB Crunch (does more damage than Night Slash), also gets Rock Slide and Ice Punch.

    I'm not saying Hera is bad at all (even if it came across that way). I was more arguing the fact that lolscraftynottoptier. It handles itself really well as soon as you get it...like...you know...Magnemite? It continues handling itself well until it evolves at Level 39, which isn't bad by Unova standards. Consider that Magnemite evolves at 30, yet without Sturdy, it tends to be dead weight (at least compared to Sturdymite) because lots of things like to hit it hard.

    Scrafty destroys the game, including basically soloing the E4. You only really need a Scrafty and a Psychic type to beat the E4. He solos Colress, Shauntel, Grimsley (aside from Scrafty), Caitlin, Iris, Zinzolin, Clay, Drayden (provided you have Ice Punch), the Rival, and Burgh. That's pretty much everyone other than Elesa and Skyla. He also destroys most of the regular battles with ease.

    Here's the biggest flaw with your argument though; Black Belt is post game, so no superpowered Close Combat for you.

    If we toss Scrafty out the window, then don't forget to toss Magnezone into High tier as well. 130 Base SpAtk is nice, but...you know...Fighting types...Unova is packed with them, and they usually outspeed 'zone. After mid-game, Magnezone doesn't really do much of note. It got famous because it stomps Roxie, but other than that...what does it do? Sure, it's the best Electric type in the game, but as we've seen, that doesn't mean it gets a permenent slot in Top Tier.

    tl;dr, 'cross is alright, despite what I said. That's no reason to toss Scrafty into High, though.

    Also, Mekkah, my argument was that Arc does best with a mixed pool, because its stats support it going mixed. Darm is a purely physical Pokemon, so it doesn't really...you know...like using Special moves. Crunch and Flamethrower were sufficient for an in-game run. Darm completely outclasses Arcanine in terms of physical power, and it's stupid easy to find. Arc has two things going for it that Darm doesn't have; Intimidate and a Special stat. Seems to me I'd want to take advantage of that yummy Base 100 Special instead of just focusing on Physical when Darm does it so much better.
  2. TM13IceBeam

    TM13IceBeam

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    responses in bold

    tl;dr:it doesn't really matter heracross or scraggy is better because both break the game anyway

    p.s. rarity argument applies to scraggy too and it's bitchy 5% appearance rate

    as for mag, trivialising roxie isn't it's only job. it basically trivialises every gym leader except clay thanks to thunder wave, beats burgh because of sonicboom/magnet bomb, charge beam is god for boosting up, and again, 13 resistances. this allows it to fit into every team easily because all it really asks for is protection against fire/fighting/ground/water, three of which can be solved by just dumping a water-type onto your team. magnezone = bro4life. fighting types are a problem but remember that scraggy's weak to them too...
  3. Mekkah

    Mekkah
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    For the purposes of a tier list, when I'm using Growlithe, I'm thinking in terms of "how do I make Growlithe worth its weight", not "how do I make Growlithe as good as possible while not being strictly worse than Darmanitan". I've already made the decision to use Growlithe at that point, and if the best way to break the game using him is to make him a mini Darmanitan, then that's the way I'm going to go.
  4. Alice in Strings

    Alice in Strings

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    For some reason, that never crossed my mind when I argue for or against Pokemon. I'm always thinking "how can I make this guy stand out against others" since that's how the rest of Smogon seems to work. Looks like I'll have to adjust my viewpoint a bit, if that makes sense. With that in mind...

    Growlithe does survive longer thanks to more bulk and Intimidate than Darm, so I guess that's a point for him running as a mini-Darmanitan? Doesn't hit as hard, but at least it can survive a few Flare Blitzes before dying. It also has a pretty neato movepool to take advantage of, and it almost always outspeeds stuff because opponents tend to be fairly slow most of the time.
  5. Progeusz

    Progeusz

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    Alice in Strings, what are you blabbering about?
    Heracross' CC is stronger than +1 Scraggy's HJK. Even Scraftys HJK is weaker than Heracross' CC.
    Heracross is much faster than Scrafty, not to mention Scraggy. Scrafty isn't much bulkier than Heracross and when you consider their Speeds, it's clear that Heracross will survive longer. Heracross also has access to Rock Slide to easily dispose of any Flying type so they're no problem.
    What's the point of winning every battle with Scarfty alone (going for Moxie sweep) if you have to waste Moomoo Milk or even Hyper Potion every five minutes? Heracross can OHKO just fine and doesn't get hit in the process. Heracross can also use Expert Belt to boost CC power to 144 while Scrafty has to stick with 130 bp (Wide Lens) or pray that terrible side effect won't occur.

    I will never agree that something with average speed, merely decent attack and just okay typing can be top-tier. Drilbur, Darumaka, Petilil (B2) and Magnemite are fine but Scraggy gets big NO from me.

    Edit: NO. Paralysis occurs 25% of the time, not 50%. Scrafty has 33% chance to cure of it every turn while Heracross has 75% chance to hit 50% harder. Shed Skin is only superior in irrelevant case of freeze and barely relevant case of sleep.
    Scrafty's Rock Slide won't ohko any remotely bulky fully evolved Pokemon without boost. There is big difference between base 90 and 125.
    L39 isn't bad by Unova standards, yes, but in BW2 there are many pre-Unova Pokemon.
    "yet without Sturdy, it tends to be dead weight (at least compared to Sturdymite) because lots of things like to hit it hard" What?! Only ground type attacks (and stuff like Darumaka's Fire Fang) can ohko Magnemite in-game.
    "Fighting types...Unova is packed with them, and they usually outspeed 'zone" only Mienshao
  6. Alice in Strings

    Alice in Strings

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    EDIT: I did say that Heracross wasn't good for Top, but for a silly reason that I didn't really think through. He's definitely at least High.
  7. rocky505

    rocky505

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    A trained heracross can outspeed in game AI birds(unless in PWT and subway)
  8. TM13IceBeam

    TM13IceBeam

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    someone
    stop the fighting types smash mag because base60 speed argument

    magnezone and scrafty have roughly the same speed, but one major difference that separates mag and pantsu is that the former has the ability to slow it's goddamn opponents down, something which the latter lacks. hera and scrafty have no business against flying-types and trying to use any against one proves that your intelligence is in question. pokestar studios grinding is pretty dumb because of the time involved + random hax that may screw up a perfect run.

    how is darumaka vs. scrafty even an existing argument? darumaka evolves 4 levels earlier than scraggy so your only arguments are darumaka vs. scraggy (arguable), darmanitan vs. scraggy (clear win in the former), darmanitan vs. scrafty (see darm vs. scraggy).

    stats do not exist in a vacuum: base 90 attack is not the same as base 90 speed. base 90 speed is considered fast for unova standards, base 90 attack is just average for unova standards.

    @AIS: how exactly did you use mag? because if you're using it correctly (i.e. dumping water-type on your team and spreading para support when necessary) mag is probably THE best pokemon in unova. Anything it doesn't resist? jesus christ that's only four fucking types, three of which can be solved by -dumping water type on your team-)
  9. Alice in Strings

    Alice in Strings

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    Which is exactly what I didn't do, because I forgot about Mid-game Marill, and I'm no fan of Jellicent (design-wise, anyway). I had a really odd team consisting of Weezing, Magnezone, Scrafty, Gothitelle, Arcanine and Sandslash.

    Also, my final movepool? T-bolt, Flash Cannon, Flash (I think I used it for utility and just never bothered to reteach T-wave), and Signal Beam. Don't get me wrong, 'zone is pretty darn good. Evolving just before his primary gym? Check. Overkill Special Attack? Check. Terrific typing? Ahem...CHECK. Like I said, I was using Magnezone wrong, and it still held its own. It's just that other than Marill and Frillish, you don't have much access to (decent) water types until around Gym.
  10. Lucchini

    Lucchini

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    Why do you keep comparing Scrafty to unevolved Pokemon like Sandile and Darumaka? Of course the comparison won't be in favour of the latter.

    Not having to hold Wide Lens is a good thing in general because it allows Heracross hold *anything else* when it isn't troubled by accuracy concerns. Leftovers? Expert Belt? Amulet or Lucky Egg even. Scrafty will be kicking itself once every ten uses of HJK for substantial damage, slowing down the rate at which you KO stuff and forcing you to heal more. Black Belt can be stolen from wild Sawks and Throhs, but it is not the only item you might want to equip as there's no shortage of useful ones readily available in this gen.

    Your earlier comment about Scrafty supposedly soloing the game finds an explanation in your team listing. For an extreme example, I play through Ruby with a team of Sceptile, Delcatty, Kecleon, Luvdisc and Magcargo. It's pretty clear who here is going to be the experience hog, as others have inadequate performance. Sceptile does turn out to be soloing the game on this particular file, but that's because the selection of team members leaves you with little choice.

    Being slow and taking hits constantly is most definitely a shortcoming that can't be entirely forgotten (even though Scraggy with Eviolite is good at taking punishment, and can take Leftovers for the same durability + recovery after promotion). Have a look at the RBY tier list on this very page. Snorlax is in High, Geodude is in Mid (and that's in a gen where everything didn't carry special attacks). The difference is that in BW2 trainers' Pokemon are higher levelled (especially on Challenge Mode) and carry far more coverage and firepower, so you're going to feeding Moomoo Milks more often if you don't outspeed and OHKO.

    I'd also like to disagree with the amount of emphasis Thunder Wave is given when stressing Magnezone's superiority over Scrafty. The 25% chance of the target missing its turn is not exactly spectacular, and you shouldn't rely on paralysis to outstall enemies in-game; in fact, you should be KOing quickly rather than outstalling. And Magnezone is quite the special nuke, though it wants that late Thunderbolt really badly.
  11. Alice in Strings

    Alice in Strings

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    To be fair to Magnezone, it does get Discharge to help it along until you get T-bolt. When has money ever been a concern in a Pokemon Game other than Gen 1? Scrafty doesn't have to hold Wide Lens; 90 Accuracy isn't terrible, so it could also hold Expert Belt (Sawk and Throh are on Victory Road, though I forgot about their hold item, xP). At most, Scrafty will nuke half its HP, though Darmanitan with Hustle (which I've seen people say is amazing) also has accuracy problems and hurts itself with its best attack, so it obviously needs healing often (not to mention he's slower than Scrafty). He's still solidly in Top.

    Challenge Mode isn't even being considered, so I'm not sure why that was brought up...but it'd be interesting to look at. Scrafty's not much slower than Magnezone, who also would be taking hits constantly by what you mentioned. (Base 60 for Mag, Base 58 for Scrafty).

    Don't get me wrong, my team was great. Weezing was actually really handy once it evolved, and Gothitelle was my primary switch in if I needed something to hit on both spectrums.

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't we supposed to be showing what the Pokemon can handle in each of the Boss teams? Scraggy can even handle Elesa provided it gets Rock Tomb. Scrafty can solo most bosses on its own, even holding Wide Lens. Isn't this something that deserves to be in Top Tier?

    Saying my team was a terrible team is silly. Just because I used a team with odd typings doesn't mean it relied on Scrafty.

    Weezing: Used to laugh at physical attackers while throwing Sludge Bombs (or Sludge...) at foes. If the foe got poisoned as a result, then I switched to Venoshock. Clear Smog to get rid of stat boosts. Used to support the rest of the team by clearing away physical threats such as Haxorus. Fantastic typing and ability pairing, too.

    Arcanine: My fire type, and something I've wanted to use for a long time. Intimidate was stupidly useful and had synergy with Weezing and its stellar defense. Throw Arc out there, switch to Weezing, and party.

    Sandslash: Mainly used as a Ground type to kill Electric types. Personally, I wasn't too happy with him, but that's just me. Sandslash supports Arcanine by checking Excadrill, and supports Magnezone and Weezing in Double and Triple Battles by spamming EQ.

    Gothitelle: Notable, because it hits both Defense and Special Defense using its Special Attack stat. Also used to get rid of Palpitoad (who would menace my team otherwise), and used to sponge Special hits for everyone. Supports Magnezone by destroying Palpitoad and destroys Poison types in general.

    Magnezone: Used as a nuke, obviously. I could switch it in, and PP stall a dangerous attack that I'm worried about thanks to Sturdy, and then KO. Magnezone supports everyone due to the above statement, but also supports Weezing by taking Psychic hits with ease.

    Scrafty: Used as a heavy hitter. I always wanted to try using Scrafty. Moxie Boosts really add up, and the game seems tailored to give Scrafty a lot of chances to just Moxie up.

    I purposefully didn't want to use Grass or Water types, because I wasn't really a fan of any of the Gen 5 Grass designs (other than Sawsbuck, who I've used before). I wanted to use things that I thought would be able to support each other. Scrafty itself was solid until the E4, where it just dominated (kinda like Skill Link Cincinno?) Gothitelle itself is solidly in Mid, as is Arc. I could argue Weezing for high, but I doubt anyone would agree (it really does make a terrific Physical Attacker check thanks to WoW and stellar defense). Magnezone is Top for sure, so if you're trying to say that Scrafty outclasses them all by pointing out my team design, I think you succeeded.

    As for stressing using T-wave, I actually agree, now that you pointed it out. Magnezone, if I'm correct, is used to nuke things and abuse Sturdy. T-wave is just silly when you should be attacking every turn. Weezing is different because it finds a use out of Will-o-Wisp and Poison turns Venoshock into a Base 130 power attack. True, T-wave is nice for supporting your team, but if you want that, then why aren't you using something else? Why are you wasting your Sturdy to paralyze your foe? Why aren't you taking advantage of a guaranteed terrifically powerful hit?
  12. diamondfan1910

    diamondfan1910

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    Darmanitan is not slower than Scrafty, and it has Sheer Force, not Hustle. Assuming you meant Darumaka, Darumaka is indeed slower but it evolves 4 levels earlier than Scraggy, meaning you should never be comparing Scrafty's speed to Darumaka's.
  13. Alice in Strings

    Alice in Strings

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    Uh, yes he is. Darmanitan has base 55. Scrafty has base 58. Darmanitan is slower.

    EDIT: Nope, I was wrong, that's Zen Mode Darm. Even still, it hurts itself with its best STAB anyway, so what is with the argument that spending potions makes a difference?
  14. atsync

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    It has 95 Speed. I think you are mixing it up with Zen Mode Darmanitan.
  15. TM13IceBeam

    TM13IceBeam

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    darmanitan: strongest attack is boosted by almost 2x with STAB and Sheer Force, dump in Charcoal and destroys things while taking roughly 1/3-1/5 of it's health

    scrafty: slow, takes a hit before attacking most of the time, hjk miss = bye 50% of your health = hi you're pretty much dead if you miss

    difference is that the former does a lot more damage due to better attack, is basically guaranteed a kill 99% of the time if the opponent doesn't resist fire, outruns most of the enemies you'll face, while the latter is uh... the exact opposite?

    hustle darumaka is also stuck with fire punch for most of its existence until flare blitz at 33, so really the only 'shit' period is when it has fire fang (which can ohko burgh's leavanny). scraggy is bulky sure but its shit period is slightly longer: darumaka arguably stops being shit like 4 levels after you catch him and nukes the rest of the game with minimal effort upon evolution.

    there have been moments where i was like 'fuck it, let's just dump darm in the lead and flare blitz everything', which was basically effective. darmanitan having to kill itself using its best move is deceptive because it also has butt tons of HP and chances are he won't have to take another hit because there is nothing left to hit him. from my experience it usually takes 5-6 battles before he finally hits red, and it's not like flare blitz is his only move, since superpower/thrash is easily as ridiculous. fb darm was basically what i would put as an 'instant-win button'
  16. diamondfan1910

    diamondfan1910

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    I never made that argument, I'm pointing out a flaw in yours. IceBeam hit the nail on the head with the potions argument anyway. It's not even about potions, it's about the fact that Scrafty misses and dies whilst Darm needs a few heals but usually goes first and nukes everything. Darm rapes everything with FB, Exca rapes everything with EQ (lower power, better type), Mag tanks everything and destroys boss trainers, Scrafty... has 90 Atk, is slow and undermines its defenses with 65 HP. IDK if it's enough to push it down to high considering it still has amazing STABs and Moxie but Scrafty is definitely the odd one out.
  17. Black Buddha

    Black Buddha

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    I'd just like to weigh in here on the whole Route 6 Marill vs Flocessy Azurill. I think raising it up from Azurill is definitely worth it- Azurill and Marill do well enough against Cheren and Roxie (although really you should just use Magnemite against Roxie). You'll probably have an Azumarill by the time you face Burgh and by then Aqua Tail + Return / Double Edge wrecks absolutely everything. Azumarill also helps clear out Desert Resort a bit easier, something that Magnemite might have trouble with. Against Elesa, Azumarill can be surprisingly useful- 100/80/80 bulk is pretty decent and it can take one electric move and then OHKO with Aqua Tail or Double Edge. And then you are set for Clay straight after as well. If you catch a Route 6 Marill, you miss out on all the early game nukeage and while a mid 20s Azumarill can probably still clear out Clay's gym, you're at a much bigger risk if you miss with Aqua Tail. After that they're both the same pretty much. But overall I think getting Azurill from Flocessy is worth it, especially if you want a solid teammate for Magnemite from early game on. Between Azumarill and Magnemite the only type you need to worry about really is Fighting-types.

    Edit: Yea as Stellar says below, Charm really helps against Cheren since it basically buys you free turns to hit him with Frustration
  18. Stellar

    Stellar true and everlasting
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    It should also be noted that if Azurill uses Charm against one of Cheren's Pokémon, the Pokémon repeatedly uses Work Up to offset the stat drops. This strategy makes it easy for Azurill to walk all over Cheren with Frustration.
  19. breh

    breh
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    I've recently started actually playing my copy of Black 2 and here's what I have to say (I've just beaten Drayden and am currently in Humilau):

    Pelipper: I really wish that this thing had more moves. I am very serious when I say that the only move it will ever use until it gets to Giant Chasm is Surf (and, on occasion, I guess, Fly). Regardless, Pelipper is actually decently bulky; I don't know why, but I felt like it was easier to run than, for example, Jellicent in previous runs. Roost is a nice addition to its moveset and there are Heart Scales littered around its location, so getting it isn't a problem at all, but the move isn't overwhelmingly useful. I've found that attaching a Power Lens on it is actually really convenient, as Pelipper quickly turns into a surprisingly strong attacker, of all things. You catch it at a pretty high level, too. Maybe Mid, maybe Low.

    Petilil (traded): Goddamn this thing is broken as fuck; if it doesn't resist it wins and if it does it probably wins anyway. High, maybe Top if you're enthusiastic about it. Petilil stage is annoying but the rest of the way is extremely smooth sailing.

    Magnemite: Do I have to? Top.

    Lillipup: This thing is such a mixed bag. At the beginning of the game, it's really strong - this is still "I evolve at level 16 to Herdier", after all. It also gets Work Up, which I've kept for the whole game up to this point. However, with time, it starts to weaken, with its Return doing less and less damage. Its moveset is set early on to Return / Work Up / Dig / Crunch, but you could probably stick Strength in the last slot with no real repercussions.

    Heracross: Its Fighting-type moves are really strong, but everything else is.. pretty lackluster. Close Combat is cool, but getting OHKOed by every Flying-type move isn't. I always feel like it could have more strength. I am pretty close to Megahorn, so we'll see how that turns out. At this point, High or Mid.

    Yamask: Holy fuck, this thing is hilariously awkward. It has no moves outside of the Ghost-type until you get surf, when it gets Energy Ball; later, it gets Psychic as well, but neither is particularly amazing, to be frank. Before that... well, have fun with getting owned by every Normal-type! For god's sake, unless you get really lucky with Disable, it can't kill goddamned Tranquills. That's depressing. Yamask is a great example of a mon that doesn't translate well to ingame due to the problem of not having Hidden Power. As a Yamask, it's slow and cannot do anything to Dark-types that go against it, relying on a hilariously inaccurate Will-o-wisp. It's pretty weak against anything that doesn't resist Ghost, too, as it only gets Hex for most of its time. As a Cofagrigus, it's very bulky on the physical side, which is nice for random Fighting-type trainers, but useless for most other opponents. It is also still very slow, as may be obvious. Mummy is a drain on your patience every time it activates. It's a shame that this cool mon is so neat design-wise but so terrible ingame. Low.

    On a different note:

    Funfest missions should be taken into account. Yesterday, my friend informed me of what a funfest mission actually is: you basically go around and do random crap, finish in a given time (usually about 3-5 mins), and recieve pass orbs for it (these pass orbs can be used for various purposes, like improving exp. gain or increasing shaking grass chance... or both). One that Jrank alerted me to on #nuggetbridge is one called "Find mysterious ores!"

    In this challenge (found after talking to some random girl in Chargestone), you are prompted to find shards (as well as stones and revives) by going into a cave and finding glittering spots (easy to find, don't worry); 10 are needed in 5 minutes.

    After the challenge is done, you get to keep the shards. This can be done as a purely solo activity. The relative ease of acquiring move tutor moves as a result should not be forgotten in the making of reviews.
  20. Stellar

    Stellar true and everlasting
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    Breh, is there any reason to participate in the funfest mission instead of searching for shards in Reverse Mountain/Relic Passage?
  21. IOS

    IOS

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    Don't use him against flying Pokemon?

    Check your nature/IVs too, Heracross should be hitting the hardest in your team.
  22. TM13IceBeam

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    can't see how something with one of the best attack stats ever and actually not-so-shabby speed is lounging around in mid. and most psychic types in unova aren't even /that/ fast (iirc only metagross ties, be/reun/goth/mush lose), so if you're plucky you can attempt to megahorn them and try to smash them all in one shot (hint: caitlin)
  23. Lucchini

    Lucchini

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    A lot of the birds are slower than Heracross and don't resist Close Combat. I honestly don't see the problem there.
  24. TM13IceBeam

    TM13IceBeam

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    problem is flying types will never take SE from CC without using roost and from my experience playing this game an unboosted neutral hit generally isn't enough to OHKO things without some kind of boost behind it, whether it be SR, level advantage or swords dance

    obviously the problem is that if hera doesn't murder the opponent it gets murdered instead

    of course that's why you use rock slide
  25. The Cicada

    The Cicada

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    Someone needs to test Zangoose. 115 base atk, high speed, stab Return, swords dance for boosting Close Combat for coverage, which not many normal types can say they learn, and also X scissor, dig, and shadow claw.

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