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Data Pokemon Sun/Moon Battle Mechanics Research

Discussion in 'Smogon Metagames' started by Nexus, Nov 11, 2016.

  1. Siggu

    Siggu

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    King's Rock Beat Up has a pretty nice chance of flinching, of around 47% if all Pokemon can attack (as only one check needs to pass to flinch).

    A similar logic goes with King's Rock + Skill Link (unless you are me, as my Cloyster failed to flinch even once in an entire tournament on cartridge with that combination)
  2. motherlove

    motherlove

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    Just did a quick test:
    http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7customgame-616158686
    http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7customgame-616158197
    http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7customgame-616156877
    http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7customgame-616159271

    50 serene grace beat ups used, opp attacked 11 times.
    11/50 = 22%
    0.8^6 ~= 26%
    0.9^6 ~= 53%

    Tell me which one it looks closer to?
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  3. Siggu

    Siggu

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    You do know the chance is always 47%, right? This doesn't change anything. Things like these can and will happen, like Stone Edge and Focus Blast seemingly always missing when needed.
  4. motherlove

    motherlove

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    I just said in my original post that I think the chance is not implemented correctly on showdown and then did a test that seemed to back up my claim, I used the move 50 times not 8, I can test more if needed but it's worth checking.

    Here I did another 50, attacked 10 times http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7customgame-616163181

    That don't look like 53% to me famo.

    EDIT: I tried a quick 100 without serene grace and surprisingly got vastly different odds.
    http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7customgame-616166201
    http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7customgame-616168700

    Moved 61 times out of 100.
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2017
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  5. willempju

    willempju

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    No, because the probability that in 50 trials with a success probability of 53% (i.e. a 53% of not flinching) you are able to attack only 11 times or less is like 7*10^{-6}, which is effectively zero. motherlove is right, it is not implemented on showdown as is should be (assuming you are correct that the probability of flinching is 47%).
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  6. Marty

    Marty Always more to find
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    It is implemented correctly, because Serene Grace does affect King's Rock and Razor Fang. All they do is add a secondary flinch chance to moves, which happens after Sheer Force removes secondaries but before Serene Grace doubles them.
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  7. sumwun

    sumwun

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    Since which generation? I've always been taught that items take effect after abilities do.
  8. Marty

    Marty Always more to find
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    Since Gen 5, when King's Rock and Razor Fang changed their mechanics.


    Also can we please not focus on things that have been known for years and are unlikely to have changed? This thread is specifically for Gen 7 research; if it existed prior to this gen its behaviour is probably known and you're better off looking it up in the relevant past gen research thread or asking in one.
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  9. SadisticMystic

    SadisticMystic

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    If you use Parting Shot and it fails to change either stat (because of White Smoke, Clear Body, Full Metal Body, Mist, or if the opponent is already at -6/-6), you do not get to switch out--the simulator currently gets this one wrong and allows you to switch, probably as a holdover from G6 rules in which you could.

    There's also a bit of an oddball case here with the Z-move: if you use Z-Parting Shot this way, where the move fails, normally the "health refill" effect just fizzles out and isn't given to anyone. However, if you get KO'd later in that same turn and have to send a new Pokemon out, or if you are forced to switch involuntarily with something like Roar, the replacement does get the health refill from the Z-power. Once that single turn is over, if no one has been brought in on that slot to get the refill by the end of the turn, the game loses track of its presence entirely, and no one can ever get that refill no matter who switches during subsequent turns, or how they do so.

    If you successfully use Z-Parting Shot but switch to a Pokemon that already has full health, there is no "bask in light" or text message, but the health refill is still used up--having the replacement be Roared out right away in that same turn does not cause the second switch-in to get healed.

    [EDIT] Just managed to test this as well: if your Z-Parting Shot gets Magic Bounced, forcing the opponent to switch, they do not steal the health refill for themselves.
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2017
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  10. TrainerX493

    TrainerX493

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    I was just making it for myself but then I decided to post this here. A list of all the unanswered questions on here from page 62 on. (basically all from when the OP was updated in January)

    Show Hide


    Will Roost allow Pokémon to receive the effect of Terrains?

    Will Pokémon using Roost avoid Thousand Arrows' effect?

    Does Foul Play use the user's own Pure/Huge Power for damage?

    Mega Alakazam copying Truant will loaf around the first turn, confirm that that's the case and if it happens every time.

    Simulator says Electo Ball is 40 power min. same as in gen 5, Serebii/Bulbapedia says min. power 60, what is the case?

    Supposedly there's a video of Illusion wearing off by using a Z-Move, confirm this.

    What happens if Air Balloon Pokémon switches against a Arena Trap+Pursuit user (does the Power still increase and does the Pokémon switch)

    Seems that Anticipation works on Hidden Power, double check and check other type changing moves

    Serebii's page on critical hits claims that Super Luck doubles critical hit rate (1=2, 2=4, ect.) rather than just a +1 boost. Check that.

    Will a Pokémon that is a Poison/Steel type (or Steel/Poison) remove Toxic Spikes on the switch?

    What happens when Instruct is used on Sketch/Transform? (Both if the moves are successful and not)

    Bulldoze apparently doesn't drop speed in Grassy Terrain, check this and how Sheer Force works with this.

    Does Spit Up remove any Stockpiles on the Pokémon if called by Sleep Talk, as is the case on the simulator (and other moves too, like Assist).

    Can you heal through Heal Block with a move like Recover if the move is called by Metronome, as is the case on the simulator.

    Will Kee Berry (and Colbur Berry) activate before Knock Off removes them? If they are eaten before, will Knock Off Block Havest/Recycle anyway?

    Does Instruct affect the Metronome item and will Assurance receive the damage boost?



    Now on to my main reason for being here, in the link below shows that Helping Hand displays its message twice in a row if Instruct is used on it, and three times in a row if used a second time. That's a bug to add to the list of "this is pretty useless" bugs, but what I wanted to know is how many times Helping Hand is boosting damage, 1 time like I thought it was (aka Helping Hand doesn't stack), 3 times: one for every use, or 6 times: one for each time the message is displayed.

    http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...ssible-in-pokemon.3604544/page-2#post-7390009
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  11. SadisticMystic

    SadisticMystic

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    I've since managed to get a test on that, and the instructed Helping Hands do have the effect of three 50% boosts, a total of 1.5^3 or 3.375x damage. Not just one boost (1.5x), and not six boosts (which would be more than 11x damage).

    The other outstanding element of the setup that I've tested is that if you Me First into a locking move like Rollout or Outrage, the 50% bonus from Me First only applies to the first turn of the attack, so that setup doesn't actually reach ten digits (it does still beat the Pikachu setup mentioned in that topic, unless and until inverse doubles is ever a playable format).

    From that list:

    Yes, an Illusion user with a Z-crystal will break its own illusion in order to use the Z-move.

    A Pokemon whose ability becomes Truant after it mega evolves but before it gets a chance to use a move that turn (either with Alakazam's Trace, or Durant using Entrainment) will indeed use that first turn to loaf around, probably under the philosophy that the mega evolution was its successful action.

    Super Luck adds 1 point to the critical hit rate, so 0 becomes 1, 1 becomes 2, 2 becomes 3, and it's impossible to get higher than 3 because at that point you already have 100% critical rate.

    Spit Up will always remove your stockpiles no matter how the move is called.
  12. sumwun

    sumwun

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    According to Bulbapedia, yes to both.
    I don't see why not.
  13. SnorlaxMonster

    SnorlaxMonster

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    Any Pokémon on the ground and not in the semi-invulnerable turn of a move is affected by terrain. Unless the Pokémon using Roost isn't on the ground for another reason (Levitate, Air Balloon, etc.), it will be affected by terrain until the effect wears off. Roost wears off after Perish Counts decrease (so also after Yawn would put a Pokémon to sleep, and after Grassy Terrain heals) but before Magic Room wears off (so also before Toxic Orb/Flame Orb activate).

    Smack Down and Thousand Arrows check the target's type when they hit. If the target isn't Flying-type (and doesn't have Levitate, etc.) when it's hit, it doesn't get the "Smack Down" status.

    Hidden Power (Gen 6+) is the only type-changing move that uses its effective type for Anticipation.

    Instruct fails.

    This is false.

    In Gen 7, if Sleep Talk tries to use a healing move while under the effect of Heal Block, you get the "POKEMON can't use MOVE due to Heal Block!" message. Metronome likely works the same way.

    Assurance checks whether the target has already taken damage this turn. Whether or not Assurance was used via Instruct is irrelevant.
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2017
  14. urkerab

    urkerab
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    I thought I'd read about the interaction between Illusion and Mega Evolving here but I can't seem to find it so sorry if this is off-topic.

    The aforementioned interaction is that Illusion hacked as the base Ability doesn't immediately wear off if you Mega Evolve the hacked Pokémon while it is active. (Its effects disappear when you switch.)

    There are very few Abilities which actually have a deactivation effect, but it would be interesting to know whether the Illusion bug affects these Abilities too:
    • If you hack Flash Fire as the base Ability, get hit by a Fire-type move, and then Mega Evolve, do you still have the Flash Fire boost?
    • If you hack Primal weather as the base Ability, does the weather stay when you Mega Evolve? If another user of the same weather switches in and out while the Mega stays in does the weather stay?
  15. Siggu

    Siggu

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    This one sparks my interest.

    Assuming on, say, that the weather does not change if you Mega Evolve... would it change if it switched out? (The ability disappeared, after all. The weather disappears if no Pokemon with the appropriate weather changing ability are in the field)
  16. SadisticMystic

    SadisticMystic

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    If you have Primordial Sea on a mega stone holder, mega evolving does cause the weather to end immediately.

    If you have Flash Fire on a mega stone holder, absorb a move with that, then mega evolve, you no longer get the damage boost afterwards. I was able to test this definitively by letting a wild Ditto transform into Audino with Fire Pledge/Flame Burst/Mystical Fire/Endeavor (and Shell Armor, just to make sure no crits led to complications), then switch to Flash Fire Slowbro@Slowbronite (Slowbro in particular for the convenience of having its attack stat unchanged post-mega) with Flame Charge, Encore, and enough speed to outrun Audino. Ditto started with 73 HP, the first Flame Charge (pre-mega) dropped it to 40, and the second one (post-mega) dropped it to 15. The correct damage ranges for this calc are 33-39 if Flash Fire is giving its bonus, and 22-27 if it is not, so clearly the second one is not.
  17. Marty

    Marty Always more to find
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    Flash Fire and extreme weather Abilities require the Ability to be active for the effects to be active. In fact, extreme weather ends before the Mega Evolution animation even begins. What makes Illusion different is it has to be working before the Pokemon switches in (and as you know, Abilities "don't exist" while Pokemon are inactive since Gen 5). My theory is that Illusion has a separate check, that the Pokemon started the battle with Illusion and that it hasn't forme changed in such a way that its Ability was changed in the process (so, Mega Evolution and Shaymin Sky Forme reverting to Land Forme).

    It's the only way to explain this nonsense I tested in Gen 6:
    This is even easier to see in Gen 7 since clicking the Pokemon's minisprite on the bottom screen to check its stat stages/Ability/effects never lies to you about its current Ability, unlike the summary screen.

    So, basically, the reason a Mega-Evolved Pokemon behind an Illusion before it switches doesn't come back in disguised is because the game knows its base Ability was supposed to change and this deactivates Illusion's second check (for whatever reason; I don't have a disassembly). Like I alluded to above, whenever any forme change other than Mega Evolution or freezing Shaymin-Sky happens, your Ability isn't updated. But, if you switch out at any point after changing formes (even if you change back to the forme you started as beforehand), the game will change your Ability to the correct Ability slot for that species, without updating the second Illusion check because the game just isn't designed that way. Realistically, this only makes a difference for Meloetta (because it doesn't need its Ability to forme change) and Darmanitan (because it has more than one possible Ability, so Zen Mode can become Sheer Force if Zen Mode was hacked in a non-Hidden slot).

    Edit: Upon further inspection, and because of the very last thing I said here, it turns out that what the game is actually doing with Meloetta and Darmanitan's Abilities when they forme change without the correct Ability + slot combination is simply renaming the Ability. So in the test I did above, despite Illusion being named Serene Grace, it's actually still functioning as Illusion, besides being able to be overwritten/swapped as Serene Grace would. I went back to the slot 1 Zen Mode Darmanitan test and after the first forme change, I switched it out and back in, and now both the summary screen and stat stages screen claim it has Sheer Force. After using Flame Charge and having its Speed rise, and ending the turn and seeing "[Darmanitan's Sheer Force] Zen Mode triggered!" happen, I think it's pretty clear Zen Mode is what it really has.

    Another edit: Upon more inspection, Skill Swapping these "fake" Abilities will make them start working normally again (Serene Grace and Sheer Force). Transforming into them while the Ability is in this glitched state also gives the Transformed Pokemon the right Ability and its functionality. Switching Meloetta/Darmanitan out and back in just restarts the glitched Ability behaviour.
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2017
  18. Kadabrium

    Kadabrium

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    Probably old, has it been confirmed that if you put a hacked ability on a pokemon and then change it in battle with skill swap etc, will it revert to the pokemons normal usual ability when you switch out/end battle? bc this seems to be how it works with megas and primals
  19. SadisticMystic

    SadisticMystic

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    If you Skill Swap your ability away (as opposed to Mega Evolving it away) and then end the battle, the game remembers what ability you started the battle with, and restores that one even if it doesn't agree with what your species and "ability slot" variable would dictate.
  20. DaWoblefet

    DaWoblefet

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    MacChaeger asked me to verify a Dancer-based mechanic. When multiple Dancer Pokemon are present on the field in a Double Battle, Dancer activation order is determined by Speed, but the slowest Dancer Pokemon is the one to move first, not the fastest.

    Battle Video code: DKQW-WWWW-WWW8-NULC
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  21. duck

    duck No, don't die!
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    A maybe stupid question.
    Does Spectral Thief steal boosts from a shield dust Pokemon?
  22. Kadabrium

    Kadabrium

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    1. does spectral thief ignore evasion boosts because it in a sense steals boosts before attacking?
    2. (nitpick) when you give for example a kyogre desolate land and then a blue orb, right before it goes primal will it notify "the sunlight faded" first
  23. Siggu

    Siggu

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    Not exactly. Spectral Thief only steals boosts if it hits. It's just that it steals the boosts before dealing damage, but after doing a hit check.
  24. MacChaeger

    MacChaeger formerly OU banned my masquerain

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    So I know that if a fire/flying type uses Burn Up, it becomes ???/Flying type, and then if it roosts it stays as ???/Flying type but is grounded. That's all well and weird, but can someone confirm whether Air Balloon, Telekinesis, Magnet Rise, and Levitate would allow a Pokemon in this peculiar situation to stay afloat, so to speak?
  25. Marty

    Marty Always more to find
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    This isn't true; Fighting, Ground, and Rock are all neutral against a burnt out user of Roost. It's just typeless for that turn, no abnormal interactions with airborneness.

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