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Prequel To The Sequel (QC work to be done before XY, all QCers must read)

Discussion in 'Archives' started by PK Gaming, Aug 19, 2013.

  1. alexwolf

    alexwolf lurks in the shadows
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    Jul 3, 2009
    Not that i am opposed to this spread, but only 60 SpA EVs are needed to avoid this 2HKO:

    252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 60 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 117-138 (37.02 - 43.67%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
  2. kokoloko

    kokoloko what matters is our plan!
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    Aug 21, 2009
    @Pocket - I didn't really popularize it... it kinda just caught on at the same time I decided it was amazing.

    The set I used during WCoP was actually just Timid 252/252, but here's what I changed to after playing with it some more:

    blast?? (Volcarona) (F) @ Passho Berry
    Trait: Flame Body
    EVs: 100 HP / 32 Def / 252 SpA / 124 Spe
    Modest Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Bug Buzz
    - Fire Blast
    - Quiver Dance
    - Giga Drain

    The claim is surviving Scarf Keldeo's Hydro Pump in Rain at +0, Specs outside rain at +0, Specs in Rain at +1 (all of those without SR), and Specs Secret Sword after SR. You QD as Scarf switches in, QD again as it fails to OHKO with Hydro Pump, then Giga Drain it/whatever switches in and proceed to sweep. You safely QD again against Specs since it can't OHKO at +2, so same result. Speed is enough for Jolly Breloom before boosts and Scarf Latios at +2 + some speed creep I think.

    I'd just remove the creep and put those EVs in Def for tanking Bullet Punch / Iron Head like .05% better, I guess.
  3. Jukain

    Jukain !_!
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    Feb 25, 2011
    ok itt jukain goes through the ou analyses and says stuff

    in all seriousness:

    abomasnow: talk about sdef spread on the second set, which is by far the standard and imo best spread

    accelgor: this i've used, slash hp fire in the last slot, and in ac mention a non-final gambit set with hp fire as a third attack. mention specific faster scarf mons in c&c. get rid of the prankster mention in the overview -- nothing besides like whimsicott which kinda blows tbh has prankster taunt anymore.

    aerodactyl: slash tailwind in the last slot; aero's a great tailwind setter as a fast lead, and that ought to be highlighted.

    alakazam: say psychic hits lando-t (if you lack hp ice) and hippo most significantly.

    amoonguss: no one actually uses the 28 satk evs. put them into bulk. also i'd slash clear smog first over stun spore, 'hazing' is a really good feature. ac/slash hp fire ?_?

    aron: this is fine.

    azelf: no boom mention on the lead sr set?

    azumarill: dear god this overview... it has like 3 sentences of positives and like 10 of negatives. azumarill is quite strong and very viable, but the current overview makes it seem inferior to me. expand c&c too -- it's very brief and just meh in general.

    blissey: we decided it needs a revamp, with merged sets, 252 hp / 120 def / 136 sdef calm as main spread, and skill swap in ac. writing is outdated. also gotta mention sand/hail are its best homes!!! also its satk over chansey for flamethrower is great.

    breloom: this is already getting the changes it needs, except protect + leech seed + drain punch + spore with a sdef spread needs to replace the current subseed set, which blows.

    bronzong: needs a tr set -- we've been discussing this, but yeah.

    celebi: c&c mention u-turn thund-t.

    chandelure: we decided that cm and sunny day need to go, so yeah. also c&c needs to be seriously expanded and the overview needs a ttar mention.

    chansey: outdated, we decided to revamp.

    cloyster: c&c mention terrakion.

    cobalion: c&c mention scarf keldeo/terrakion.

    conkeldurr: mention reuniclus in bulk up ac. its c&c is way too focused on bulk up in general, could use a slight redo. overview is not metagame-pertinent. well...neither are most of the sets. it never got a bw2 revamp even... i err on the side of revamping it, everything except the all-out attacker set -- it's recent, and so does alexwolf -- this needs discussion.

    crawdaunt: stress that it's really only viable on rain with tailwind tornadus/i guess hydreigon...it can be dangerous in those conditions but it really needs the speed boost.

    cresselia: ac lunar dance on defensive...otherwise this is a very impressive analysis.

    crobat: rewrite c&c, it misses so much. this is ok otherwise i guess .-. bkc likes it that's one thing !_!

    darmanitan: emphasize ground mons, especially chomp and hippo, in c&c.

    ditto: lol.

    donphan: i want to discuss max atk vs. max def -- i think the former is better, it makes donphan not a weakling. anything that makes donphan less trash is a++ in my book.

    dragonite: we need to discuss mixnite, otherwise this is ok. draco/fblast/superpower/espeed. bkc says it's decent, i like it, and fuzznip likes it.

    dugtrio: i don't see stone edge as irreplaceable, i'd slash memento with it tbh.

    durant: oo truant + entrainment, which is pretty hilarious with sub hone claws duggy...

    empoleon: specifically mention a goth tailored to taking out bulky waters in the ac of subpetaya, it's fine besides that.

    espeon: perfect.

    exeggutor: needs kyurem-b/n mentions in c&c, aka its best checks.

    farfetch'd: top tier ou imo.

    feraligatr: gr8astard wrote it and i read it, this is good.

    ferrothorn: i'd drop twave to ac, let's talk about it.

    forretress: needs some grammar edits, otherwise it's fine.

    froslass: c&c mention rock blast from cloyster and elaborate that ttar limits it to one layer of spikes thanks to sandstorm damage.

    garchomp: revamp in progress.

    gastrodon: see above.

    gengar: see greece for more details.

    gliscor: drop sub to ac on acrobat and make agility primary, double dance gliscor is actually p good.

    golurk: dynamicpunch + no guard is p nifty, we ought to think about putting it on the main set/at least in ac.

    gorebyss: we should reconsider shell smash sweeper's viability i think.

    gothitelle: scarf should prolly be the first set, unless you're trapping helpless walls it's better than specs for sure.

    gyarados: i'd drop lum to ac on offensive dd, you kinda need the power from lo for not running sub to be worth it...

    haxorus: very pertinent and correct, everything is right.

    heatran, heracross: good enough.

    hippowdon: whirlwind > ice fang on phys def for sure.

    hitmontop: it's ok.

    hydreigon: slash tailwind/make a tailwind set imo, it's really one of its best attributes.

    infernape: ugh this thing...make scarf second, it's really better than everything but cb. mixed attacker might be best last, anti lead is ok, thoughts?

    jellicent: c&c mention passho volc, especially with giga drain. also giga drain in sun needs a mention.

    jirachi: i'm revamping mixed attacker to mixed lure with shuca + sr and whatever. set order ought to be...sdef/scarf/mixed/wish cm/subcm/offensive cm/sub status imo. subcm really isn't as amazing nowadays, and wish cm is awesome, living forever. meanwhile mixed is really good with the shuca and all. i think we should move psyshock to the second slash on sub and wish cm, it really doesn't have the wide application of flash cannon tbh.

    jolteon: i'd make subpass first set, as with the current main set it suffers from a general inferiority complex to thund-t. not totally outclassed, but still put subpass first, which is actually unique.

    jumpluff: expand on c&c with kyu-b/n, abomasnow...basically every ice mon. oh and anything p strong, and other weathers than sun...yeah.

    jynx: walled by kyu-b/10.

    kabutops: c&c mention amoonguss, particularly phys def, as a good check.

    keldeo, kingdra: well done analyses, no problems.

    kyurem: we decided to get rid of special lo and mixed. i'm skeptical of choice being one set, scarf and specs ought to separated. gotta mention the huge competition kyu-b gives it .-.

    kyurem-b: sub should be fusion bolt / ice beam / earth power... specially based mixed should be the second set and dclaw should be ac. c&c mention shuca rachi.

    landorus-t: ac sleep talk on scarf. c&c mention random hp ices from stuff like zam and gengar, and shuca rachi. otherwise sds did a fantastic job here, no complaints.

    latias: we're getting 72 hp on offensive, this is otherwise fine.

    latios: ac sleep talk on specs for loom. oo psych up because fuk bp and shit like cm reuniclus.

    lilligant: drop lefties to ac on qd. c&c mention kyu-b as walling it completely, and cresselia.

    lucario: when you could get an invaluable speed boost from steadfast i don't see why you'd run inner focus, j/s.

    ludicolo: could use some grammar edits, and i wouldn't run focus blast > rain dance. i think being self-sufficient is invaluable. focus blast belongs in ac imo.

    magikarp: nothing would even be funny.

    magneton, magnezone: c&c mention obama's eq and kyu-b's epower.

    mamoswine: it's fine.

    medicham: why does this have an analysis again?

    meloetta/meloetta-p: getting revamped.

    metagross: ughhhh this thing...the analysis is stellar though.

    mew: pk is revamping now.

    mienshao: i wouldn't forgo regen on scarf, but maybe that's just me, idk.

    moltres: this is fine.

    mr. mime: jc104 did it right.

    a-m for now, n-z coming when i can put two thoughts together in my head.
  4. alexwolf

    alexwolf lurks in the shadows
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    Jul 3, 2009
    I will only comment on what is worth commenting, as many things you have listed are extremely minor and some can even be edited by you via SCMS without the need to take permission from anyone (such as Pokemon that you claim are missing from certain checks and counters sections). Also please next time don't mention the Pokemon you have no trouble with, as it only makes you list bigger and harder to read.

    The Prankster mention is ok as both Tornadus and Sableye are OU viable and have sets with Taunt. There is no need to mention specific faster mons in c&c as most of them are faster and can 2HKO Accelgor. Even the most stupid reader is smart enough to understand which Choice Scarf users can outspeed Accelgor by looking at its Speed stat. I am ok with HP Fire getting slashed last in the last slot as it does OHKO CB Scizor 75% of the time with a Modest nature and allows Accelgor to 2HKO Forretress without the need to rely on Focus Blast. Finally, no to Spikes + 3 attacks set on AC, as then Accelgor loses its ability to protect its Spikes against Tentacruel, one of its main advantages over other Spikes users.

    You can do this without asking anyone

    I won't comment on the overview as i am the one who wrote it and i think it describes Azumarill's niche perfectly. As for the checks and counters, if you think that anything is missing or needs more details you can go ahead and add some stuff, but i think the current c&c paragraph is detailed enough to inform players how to deal with Azumarill. If it was a more prominent force in the metagame then i would be ok with expanding this section a bit, but this is not the case.


    Actually i think the whole c&c section should be rewritten, as it was written with the defensive set as the focus and no mention of the mixed set, while in reality the mixed set is the only really relevant set of Cobalion for the OU metagame.



    Do it?


    The thing about Ttar is already mentioned.

    Idk about Sub on AC, but i agree that Agility > Sub

    Scarf Nape sucks. The only Nape sets i would use are the CB and mixed sets. As for if the Lead or Scarf should be last in order i really don't care.

    This Volcarona is neither a counter nor a check to Jellicent, not even a revenge killer, it is a lure and we don't mention those kind of things there

    I think you know what i'll say here, do it, there is no need to ask about adding some definite checks in checks and counters.

    The set you are talking about doesn't exist


    Because SpD Jirachi is a bitch?

    Do it
  5. Gary

    Gary Can be abrasive at times (no joke)
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    Aug 5, 2011
    As the writer of the Donphan analysis, I feel like I'm inclined to disagree with you on this. Let's be honest, Donphan sucks. It's slow, has no means of reliable recovery, and only has one useful resistance in the form of Rock-type. Maxing out its Attack stat really doesn't help that problem. Even with Max Attack and an Adamant nature, Donphan still fails to OHKO any of the Dragon-types after SR, and at the same time it still doesn't do squat to Landorus-T. Donphan needs to invest heavily in its bulk in order to survive for a majority of the match, or else it sucks at spinning, which is the only reason you should be using Donphan in the first place. By removing its bulk, your opening up a lot of opportunities for Donphan to be 2HKOed. For example, without running max defense, Donphan has to be very wary of switching into Banded T-Tar because it risks being 2HKOed by Crunch, and normally Donphan is considered a reliable switch-in, especially when on a sun team. With Max defense, Donphan is capable of coming into an Outrage from Scarf Salamence and Garchomp, and then proceed to beat it with two Ice Shards, or it can just spin hazards away in its face. Without max Defense, he can't switch into it.

    My point is, by taking away Donphan's bulk, you're taking away from it more opportunities to come in and spin, which is what it wants to do in the first place. It only attacks when it needs to, but a majority of the battle it just sits there, sets up rocks, spins, then switches out. I feel we should keep the current EV spread in the overview, but keep the mention of max attack in the AC. I feel like the only time Donphan should ever want to run Max Attack is if it's running something like Head Smash to beat Gengar. Otherwise, Max Attack is just going to make Donphan less efficient at spinning hazards, because it's so susceptible to being 2HKOed by powerful physical attacks, which are the thing it should be spinning against.

    Anyways, one thing that needs to be SCMSed out of Donphan's analysis is any mention of Landorus-I, because I'm pretty sure there's a few of them.

    And this sentence sort of stuck out to me, because it sounds misleading in a way;

    Donphan comes no where close to avoiding the 2HKO from a +2 Lucario. I think the sentence should be reworded to say:

    With this spread, Donphan can avoid the 2HKO from Choice Band Terrakion's Close Combat and the OHKO from +2 Lucario's Close Combat after Stealth Rock
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2013
  6. dice


    Feb 24, 2012
    defense > attack; I actually made two teams in wcop w/ Donphan both of which were used by my team, so I have a lot of exp w/ it. What Gary said ^
  7. alexwolf

    alexwolf lurks in the shadows
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    Jul 3, 2009
    Done. Also i agree that Donphan should be using a physically defensive spread.
  8. Trinitrotoluene

    Trinitrotoluene trust your force and head for the garden of madness
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    Jul 13, 2010
    An EV spread of 68 HP / 188 Def / 252 Spe is worth a mention in the AC of Froslass's analysis because it prevents 4 Atk Tyranitar from OHKOing Froslass with Crunch, even when factoring in sand damage.
    Jukain and Kingler12345 like this.
  9. AccidentalGreed

    AccidentalGreed Sweet and bitter as chocolate.
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    Jun 12, 2009
    Just chiming in to say I hate the offensive Celebi set on-site (specifically due to coverage problems amongst other practicality issues), and would like to tweak it a little via individual set revamp.
  10. Jukain

    Jukain !_!
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    Feb 25, 2011
  11. Martin

    Martin RIP Grape-kun
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    Jan 9, 2013
    Probably really late to this party, but the points about trick/flame orb Latias: why would you run Trick/Flame Orb when it gets Psycho Shift to reuse the burn, and it can also do that to reset toxic poison when you have a toxic orb without switching out which is amazing, as well as its ability to get rid of pesky statuses which have been put onto Latias (and, while gimmicky, you could use it in conjunction with Sleep Talk to offload sleep onto the opponent if you have not already put something to sleep on the opponent's team)
    That basically flaws the idea completely.

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