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Returning to Our Roots NOC Mafia - GAME OVER: The Mafia Wins

Discussion in 'Circus Maximus' started by Walrein, Nov 8, 2011.

  1. Pernicious

    Pernicious

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    Hi, I'm very tired so I'll won't post quotes, just my opinions on the players that I and other people seem to have strong opinions about (I guess this is my “3 scummiest” penitence for Hydrattler's inactivity)

    Pokemaniac212: I'd agree with some recent odd suspicions of him: the contents of Ditto's posts seem trustworthy (maybe I implicitly trusted him while reading due to his mod status which would be irrelevant but w/e) so it's understandably strange/scummy that pokemaniac would have made such an assumption not based off his trustworthiness. I think the fact that Ditto actually cast a lynch vote on him could go either way: that early in the game we probably wouldn't have gone past L-1 without a serious guarantee which doesn't exclude him from being scum.

    ORC/AG: I think these two are probably clean, although there are claims of them being mafians due to their fighting bogging down discussion, I think this was just due to AG being bothered at the fact that he was being consistently misunderstood. Having lurked in other mafia games I predict that although jalmont has the same role, we'll be seeing a very different person from here on out due to AG's unique personality. In other words the constant defensiveness doesn't seem to me like a definite scumtell.

    Empoof: Besides Quagsires he has the most experience in mafia so far which would account for his odd ability to correctly make hunches that later turned out to be true. The only thing more scummy than immediate lynching/bandwagon is the kind of posts being made generally by EP/empoof (although I like the red pandas :toast:).

    I actually found the last part of Quagsires' post just now to be somewhat suspcious: generally it's suspicious be ambivalent but it's also suspicious to come right out the gate with a strong suspicion. He did neither and jokingly lynched Walrein, which, although funny, is kind of a clever “third option” in terms of what we might think of him, neither overly vague or overly suspicious. Added to the fact that nEsp was very inactive before he subbed out and that Quag is an experienced mafian.
  2. Orcinus Duo

    Orcinus Duo

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    Is it just me or did jalmont's read on empoof/EP not make any sense? Not only was that a blatant buddying with omg ily empoof, that last sentence was confusing. What the heck was that supposed to mean?

    Lynch Jalmont

    EDIT AHEM I MEANT PERNICIOUS NOT JALMONT

    Lynch Pernicious[/B
  3. khz

    khz

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    Where is jalmont's post exactly? All I see is one where he says he'll post his thoughts soon.
  4. Empoof

    Empoof

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    I think OD is talking about Pernicious...?
    [​IMG]
    Pernicious' post is pretty bizarre, I really don't like his logic of my experience (or lack there of? I thought i already wrote a mushroom post about this and this) for justifying my "odd ability to make hunches that end up being true"... which is another this i don't fully understand. I was someone who had thought TL and NJiggly were scum and they both ended up being town.

    Also I have tried to have all my posts have a solid foundation and purpose behind then, I'm slightly surprised that Pernicious and Quagsires would find them as "not saying much". If either of you (or both) could elaborate on these two points you've made about me so that I could have a better understanding I'd appreciate it.

    Also I apologize for my odd vernacular, I just find saying Village or Town to be more specific than saying "we". I would like to note that I do use "we" and "I" also on occasion.

    For Pernicious' first post in this game, I unfortunately find it pretty scummy. He uses scarce, slightly inaccurate logic. His bit about Quagsires was for me undecipherable about what he actually thinks about Quagsires.

    Also OD, could you explain where the buddying is in Pernicious' post? I'm pretty sure he labels me as scum in it.
    I'd also like to note that many people labeled Ditto and Flamestrike as having similar play styles. I don't know whether that constitutes a scumtell for me or just the way these two people happen to play.
  5. Orcinus Duo

    Orcinus Duo

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    I MEANT PERNICIOUS
    I have no idea which hunches he's talking about, some insight would be helpful.
    So I have no idea what he's trying to say here. Either...he's trying to praise Empoof's skills using imaginary evidence and thus saying that he's an asset for town, or he's trying to incriminate empoof and EP!wheretheheckdidhecomein using imaginary evidence.

    I'm not sure if having a similar playstyle as a scum is...well, scummy. It really could be just coincidence.

    Empoof, how do you feel about the scummy sounding fans that you seem to have?
  6. pokémaniac 212

    pokémaniac 212

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    Can someone explain to me what this even means, since he appears to be saying that he thought ditto was trustworthy, but then thinks I'm scummy for finding him trustworthy, which doesn't make any sense to me, although maybe I'm misinterpreting him. In fact, literally none of his post makes any sense. How do you say 2 people are most likely clean then put them on a 3 scummiest players list?

    Also, at those people calling me scummy for thinking ditto was town, may I point out that that was a view shared by 90% of the players early on, and while I admit I didn't actually state my reasons at the time, I was basing it on the same reasons everyone else trusted him at the time, ie that he appeared to be helping the town by trying to make people talk.

    So, can pernicious please explain what he was trying to say, since I don't think I'm alone in struggling to understand his post.

    Also, unvote Hydrattler, although Pernicious' nonsensical post doesn't help things, he said he was tired and I'm willing to give him a chance to explain himself before lynching.
  7. auramaster

    auramaster

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    Lol not even close, this is only his second game iirc.

    I think this is supposed to mean he suspects EP and Empoof of being Mafia, but didn't post his reasons for doing so.

    Let me make sure I'm reading this right. Quagsires did not do either of the things you would consider suspicious, therefore he's suspicious?


    Only a few hours until deadline, I find EP's unhelpfulness to be more suspicious then Pernicious making a bad post in his first Mafia game, pokemaniac is helping more then EP and I won't be online for deadline so Lynch Engineer Pikachu.
  8. Orcinus Duo

    Orcinus Duo

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    Deadline needs to be extended please...new subs and all.
  9. Walrein

    Walrein

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    Deadline extended pretty much indefinitely. I'm starting to consider just not having day deadlines.
  10. Quagsires

    Quagsires

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    Pernicious, while I see where you're coming from on several points, I would ask that you not just blindly follow the opinions of the experienced, as we are not always right (and I'm pretty sure I'm no the post experienced player here), and you could be following a scum with strategies like that. Not to mention you say, "Hey, I'm going to blindly follow Quagsires, who I don't trust and find suspicious, based off of arguments that aren't even true." Your previous counterparts looked less suspicious than that one post. Please elaborate on almost everything in that post, since I'm not sure we understand it in its present form.

    And I would ask OD remove his vote until Pernicious does so, since lapses in logic are not exclusive to the mafia alone

    Empoof, lemme give some examples from your posting.
    While there are many posts that are the exception to this, it jsut seems to be the style of posting that you are slowly evolving towards, and it's not necessarily a good one. I would ask that when you ask a question that you comment on your thoughts about it as well.

    I will say however that I did exaggerate some of what I said last night, and I think it may be worth noting that this isn't all that Empoof has done, but my points still stand.

    Unvote in case the voting Walrein counted for anything
  11. Engineer Pikachu

    Engineer Pikachu Good morning, you bastards!
    is a Contributor to Smogon

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    I'm bad at being helpful, okay x_x

    I've been trawling through AG's post-D1 posts, and I just realized that some of them don't make any sense. Moving in chronological order...

    In this post, there doesn't seem to be a reason for mafia members to try and overturn the lynch, since then they would've essentially revealed themselves. Then, you have the strangest move so far, which seems to have accomplished absolutely nothing besides himself claiming a power role and attempting to get MB to claim something that he wasn't so that we could lynch him...? In hindsight, that doesn't seem like a very thought-out plan, and it worked about as well as wet gunpowder. As for this post, what I don't get is why a mafia hooker would choose to hook someone who claimed village hooker, and why a mafia hooker would have higher priority than a village hooker; I haven't really played in too many mafia games, so if somebody could help me with this point I'd appreciate it. And then, you have his assortment of relatively useless posts.

    I guess what I'm trying to say by going through his posts is that they haven't been entirely coherent, and his "trap" for MB was completely foolhardy and unnecessary. I know I'm being kind of hypocritical for calling someone out about not being careful, but what he did before he got subbed out just doesn't seem to be genuine, for the lack of a better word.
  12. auramaster

    auramaster

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    Agreeing that Aura's posting was extremely strange at best, as I said a few pages ago. Interesting how he's flying under the radar today when yesterday most people thought he was one of the most suspicious players if I'm not mistaken.

    EP, the Mafia members might have wanted to overturn the lynch because they could vote for another player (Metal Bagon) and have a good reason for doing so, without making themselves look suspicious. The fact that Aura voted for kongs when he could have tried to save kongs makes me think he's town, although he could have been bussing. IMO probably town but more suspicious then most. Also, Mafia Hooker typically has a higher priority then village Hooker in Smogon games, not sure about NOC though.

    jalmont, you said you would post your thoughts sometime today, what do you think about the game so far?
  13. Empoof

    Empoof

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    Ah i see. I guess i need to start taking all my posts more seriously in there iso form, such as citing past information if i need to. Thanks, I'll try to make that improvement.

    EP I agree that AG's move was really suspicious, if he had already made the move to entrap MB then why not stick with it? He bailed on it after OD put one lynchvote on him, causing him to reveal his role which, if he was town, he knows to not beneficial (seeing as we already had NWO claim early and MB trying to reveal his power role before we'd chosen him for our lynch target).

    Also, Quagsires, who do you think we should lynch today? Reading over your post, you list some scumtells in people but without really saying who you believe to be actually scummy. I would currently choose Pernicious, as even though lapses in logic isn't exclusive to scum, his post seems to be trying to fit in with the crowd with following who he sees as the most experienced in this game, and his predecessors were inactive/trying to blend in/not giving the best reasons for there actions. I understand the argument about having two subs could mean the role is vanilla, but i don't really buy this since i see needing subs to be more about irl things than mafia things.
  14. khz

    khz

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    Aura got subbed out for jalmont.
  15. Jalmont

    Jalmont

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    Ok, everyone I'm going to do a list of reads. Keep in mind that I am a different player than Aura Guardian, so try not to hold any bias against me.

    Engineer Pikachu- Before he claimed a supposed power role, he appeared very suspicious. Especially on post 501 where he wanted khz to post more even though khz had been posting. It seemed to me he was trying to take the spotlight off himslef and onto somebody else. His reads also haven't been anything special. Right now I'm borderline on scum/town.

    Mithril- Is it just me or has he barely posted? From reading his posts he doesn't seem to have a clear opinion on anything at all and hasn't provided a list of reads since cycle 1. I don't have enough info on him to get a good read.

    New World Order- Definetely village. While his early claim may not have helped the village out, the fact that no one counter-claimed and that a mafia mayor appears to be an infrequent role leads me to believe he is clean.

    auramaster- Promoting discussion and appears to be fairly helpful. You appear to be village in my opinion. However, I'm not too sure that you've given a list of reads which would be helpful to I believe everyone (of course you may have already but I just skipped over it.)

    Pernicious- I'm sorry, but your post was extremely confusing. Subbing in for a player who already had quite a lot of suspicion and then posting a very confusing list of reads, especially that last part. So were you saying that no matter what Quagsires did you would've found him acting suspicious?

    Quagsires- Not taking into account nEsp's post your first post appeared clean. Of course, that's just one post so I couldn't really take anything away from it. Please continue posting.

    Orcinus Duo- The biggest promoter of discussion, and after starting the lynch on kok I would say you are clean. I do find it strange the mafia has not targeted you but I have confidence that you are town. Please continue to promote discussion.

    Empoof/Flamestrike- Unsure about these two. While it seems both have been contributing (Empoof more than Flamestrike) I can't really tell whether or not they are scum. Thoughts anyone?

    pokemaniac212- Other than continuosly pestering Hydrattler I don't think I've seen you post other than to agree with someone else or defend yourself? What are your thoughts on Flamestrike and Empoof?

    khz- Eh, his posts have been pretty short without a lot of substance. Not too sure. Again, would appreciate if you would post more in-depth thoughts.

    I'm not really sure who to lynch for at this point. I think right now I would vote for Mithril or Pernicious.
    If anybody wants me to answer any more questions, please ask away! Sorry for taking a long time!
  16. pokémaniac 212

    pokémaniac 212

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    @jalmont On Flamestrike, see this post:http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3974916&postcount=528, which gives my thoughts on flamestrike.

    As for Empoof, I don't have any immediate thoughts, and its too late now for me to do a full read through of his posts (I'm in the UK so its past midnight now), but I'll do a full read-through and post it in the morning.
  17. khz

    khz

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    In that post you wrote:

    Could you give a list please of who is inactive and not getting called out for it? May just be me but defending yourself by saying X, Y and Z do this also seems scummy since you don't actually rebut the points against you, just try and shift the spotlight elsewhere.
  18. Walrein

    Walrein

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    Suddenly, Walrein regains computer access and drops 3 slips of paper: one for Ditto, one for Paperblade, and one for Metal Bagon!
  19. Empoof

    Empoof

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    Guys, we got an extended deadline... I was semi hoping for more activity and not having 4 hour gaps between posts (not counting Walrein) but i guess peoples schedules are different and etc...

    I would definitely like to hear Pernicious explain his post to us more thoroughly. It's been roughly 24 hours since his last post and he was active around 2-3 hours ago... I get that this NOC game is semi-intimidating to post into, but we need people to post so that we can move forward and find ourselves a decent lynch target.

    All these subs do make analysis harder, seeing as we can't ask AG his reasoning behind his early claim for example, but we do need to use all the information we've got to make decisions. I think AG's avoidance of answering when I asked him twice is something to note.

    If we take a look at this post, he alludes to having a power role (which is something that gives more incentive to be active in this game) and that he forgot he was in this game, which is usually the most active game coming out of Circus Maximus right now. Since he'd been active in ASB according to Quagsire i would suspect that he'd see the game he's in on the smogon forums mainpage... I see this as him being mafia that was too cautious to post in fear of revealing himself. This, along with the scumtells we've gotten from khz as well, I feel pretty comfortable with Lynching Engineer Pikachu while still having Pernicious answer our questions and having our vig consider him (and perhaps AG Jalmont) for tonight if EP proves to be seen as more scummy. If anyone would like to argue for EP being town please be my guest.
  20. pokémaniac 212

    pokémaniac 212

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    @khz, I was primarily referring to AG, who only posted when attacked, and went completely silent after the suspicion lifted, although this has been raised since that post. Also, NWO was pretty quiet on the day in question.

    On Empoof, his first post obviously caused suspicion, although I personally read it as a noob play rather than a maf play. His second post, lynching AG because we had 2 aura's in the game, was most likely a joke, backed up by the fact that AG started it and that it was clearly a part of RVS.

    #163 seems largely repetitive, asking Njigg to explain himself, and telling AG that a list of reads isn't scummy, while emphasizing his suspicions of MB. His request for ditto to post more, in light of Ditto being a mafian, could be read as a mafia partner trying to encourage ditto to try and steer the town in the wrong direction again, although given ditto was considered clear at the time its just as likely that it was a villager genuinely looking for help.

    #169, doesn't contribute anything at all to discussion, joining spiffy in lynching mithril and nothing else. #178, is even more pointless, saying how he likes Metal Bagon's new avatar, although he does say that he's waiting for mithril to post.

    #187, isn't really contributing to discussion, and is instead naming some rather obvious inspect targets, and seems to be discouraging people from inspecting MB, albeit since MB wasn't mafia this can't really be seen as defending a mafia buddy. In his next post, #194, he continues saying that the inspector should try and clean some of the leading town players, although he does say here that MB is a valid target otherwise. It also seems odd that he should put AG on his list of good players who are leading the town, when several of his posts at that point had given the opposite impression, primarily #152 accusing OD of being mafia for giving a list of reads, and #111, which was extremely defensive with little provocation.

    Post #210 literally just says that he'll be on late, while #227 does little other than voting for KOK. #233 is perhaps the strangest post so far, seemingly stirring up suspicion of spiffy, with no apparent reason. #236 I'm struggling to understand, maybe he's removing a previous vote on mithril? Either way it doesn't really serve much purpose.

    #259 Apologises for anticipated inactivity, while arguing that OD is clear, both of which appear legit to me, so not much to comment on here. However, he is back less than an hour later, in #263, which continues the general theme of the day of attacking TL, and does little else. This activity so soon after saying he will be inactive for the night seems strange, possibly mafian trying to escape the heat then forgetting?

    #279 is repeating Spiffy's request for NWO to speak, since he's essentially clear, while continuing to attempt to push town towards voting MB, which could be noob maf trying to attract attention towards that person away from mafia colleagues. #288 is bascially defending TL/Njiggly, saying that they could both be town, which wasn't a view much considered at the time, and so isn't really something a mafian would post, since a mafian would be in favour of lynching someone they knew as town. However he ends the post by further attacking TL, which reduces that impression somewhat. He later edits this post to lynch maxim, which could be odd, its impossible to tell how long after the edit was made, so we can't really make much of this.

    #301 is further attacking TL, and asking if anyone can come up with a defence, which could have been seen as a scumtell were it not for TL flipping town, so more likely trying to promote discussion. Also prodding EP a bit. #307 seems unnecessary, doing nothing more than repeating a post only made 6 posts earlier and still on the same page. Post #312 is further attacking TL, by attempting to refute Paperblade's counter-argument, and then describing lynching TL as almost a win-win situation, saying
    which appears scummy in retrospect although it is just as easily read as saying that it's the best-case scenario should there be a mislynch.

    #326 is answering OD's suspicions and questions, and it all makes sense to me, so not much here. #333 is defensive, but with good reason and #338 while not adding much, by advising against rushing to majority towntells to me.

    #344 is pointless, while #352 seems to be defensive about a point that has already been thoroughly debunked, in that him reserving means he reserved a role, making him mafia. He then goes on to defend OD, albeit repeating reasoning already stated several times.

    #358 is lynching NJ, and advising again against accidentally hitting majority. #365 could be read as a scumtell, asking for village to throw some more suspicions around, which could be used by mafia to narrow down the targets, although #368 admits this, although this could be taken as a scum move being withdrawn when the consequences are made obvious.

    #378 is another inactivity post, while #396 is prompting MB to talk, which is towntelling to me.

    #403 is again repeating that town shouldn't accidentally hit majority, while #425 is attacking AG over his claim of a powerful town role, with good reason.

    #427 is requesting MB to post, but no longer attacking him due to his claim, which was fairly common at the time, while strongly attacking AG for reasons alreay mentioned, and also attacking mithrol for only posting when attacked himself, so this post is towntelling to me. #433 is simply repeating stuff he's already said for MB's benefit and warning not to hint at identity of the doctor, although in retrospect this was never a risk.

    #459 is further attacking AG for refusing to answer questions, while also attacking MB, and requesting Hydrattler to post, all of which towntells to me. #471 is further attacking/getting exasperated at MB and #474 states he is uncertain w
    ho to lynch between 2 highly scummy players, although it seems strange that he ignores AG, despite him still not having answered the questions mentioned.

    #489 further affirms his suspicions of MB, while #494 simply displays that he is active while he waits for people to post, which seems unnecessary, so possibly noob maf trying to appear more active, although frankly he had been active enough to make this unnecessary.

    #511 is trying to help village regarding AG being town or maf hooker, and yet again emphasises not to hit majority, so yet again towntelling, while 534 is attacking EP and hydrattler, towntelling again. #536 is less certain of EP, and asserts that mafia may well be smarter than we give them credit, due to ditto flipping maf.

    #554 attacks pernicious for illogical posting, which I agree with, so towntells to me, although he wasn't the first to say it, as well as mentioning earlier comparisons between ditto and flamestrike, furthering discussion. #563 repeats his earlier assertions about AG, while asking quagsires for his best suspicion, and further attacking pernicious, so towntells again, although could I suppose be taken as buddying with quagsires.

    Finally #569 further attacks both pernicious and AG, as well as attacking EP again due to various of his claims not making sense together.

    Overall, empoof comes across as town to me, although several of his posts could be construed otherwise.

    Outside of empoof, EP's attack on KHZ for inactivity, saying his only post on day 3 was to say he would be inactive, isn't even factually correct, so either displays a player not bothering to pay attention, or a mafian trying to divert attention, neither of which are good. Other than that I agree with Emp's logic on him, so lynch Engineer Pichu, although I still want pernicious to talk.
  21. Engineer Pikachu

    Engineer Pikachu Good morning, you bastards!
    is a Contributor to Smogon

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    "Power role" =/= more incentive, just saying. I'd say more, but there's currently no need for me to do so.
    a) I'm active in ASB because I ref things, and reffing things is kind of an obligation.
    b) I don't go to the homepage. Typing in "CAP A" into my browser, hitting the down button, then enter brings me exactly where I want to be.
    I responded to those. That doesn't necessarily mean anything, but you may want to know that I actually have responded to those.

    Also, to everyone calling me out about my mistake with khz: it's a mistake. Everyone makes mistakes. I thought that his posts were in Day 2 and not Day 3. It's over. Move on. If you're going to keep harping on me about it, feel free to do so, but know that it's not going to do anything.

    Now I'd like to see NWO post again; a search returns a post on the 26th, two on the 24th, and one on the 21th. Anything you'd like to say?
  22. Jalmont

    Jalmont

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    Ok, so there seems to be a lot of people who are still suspicious of Aura Guardian. Well, guys while I will agree that Aura Guardian may have acted suspicious I think that's hardly a reason to lynch me (or set the vigilante on me). I can in fact confirm that although the timing of Aura Guardian's claim was strange, I am the village hooker.

    Guys, what is your opinion on getting EP to publicly claim?
  23. Mithril

    Mithril
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    Well, at this point there is a part of me that feels that even if EP claims it won't really make a difference. He can claim basically any role that he wants, and it is practically impossible to disprove his claim.

    And as for Empoof's point, I do agree that the fact that EP claimed to have some sort of power role, yet he has done very little to help the discussion for the village makes me believe that he is likely to be mafia. As I personally believe that if he were to have had a village power role he would have been much more likely to attempt to utilize his role to help push discussion on, as he would have reason to keep engaged.

    As for Jalmont, while AG acted rather strangely, I feel that at this point he is more than likely village. Once Jalmont gives more opinions I will look back and see if I can come to any conclusions from those.

    I would also like to say that pokemaniac's large analysis of Empoof was kind of random, and while I don't think it really screams of him being mafia, it seemed like a very odd thing to do at the time.

    Finally, I very much feel that Pernicious needs to try to clarify what he was trying to say, because I honestly have no idea what he was trying to get across.

    So at this point I would lynch EP, but am going to wait to see if there are any other opinions before voting.
  24. khz

    khz

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    1. A power role does give you more incentive to be active because at the very least you need to read through to thread to make an informed choice about who you target. If you do that then you can't just "forget" about the game and hence not post.
    2. If this game is so much of a bother then sub out? When you sign up you kind of make an obligation that you will be reasonably active in the game (to the best of your ability).
  25. Engineer Pikachu

    Engineer Pikachu Good morning, you bastards!
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    I never said that the game was a bother to me. I enjoy playing mafia; forgetting that I'm in a game with real life issues compounded with standard work to do along with a not-so-interesting role is something that could very easily happen. Moreover, I really don't believe that reading through the thread is something that can be called "active." I read through the thread a couple times without posting while I was being called out as "inactive," since frankly, nobody knows if you've been reading through the thread if you don't post.

    To be honest, I'm quite offended that somebody is accusing me of believing that this game is a "bother" to me. I'm sorry if I came off this way; however, you cannot possibly say that not posting as much equates to believing that the game is a bother.

    Now that my short rant is over, I'm going to ask NWO and Pernicious to post something that we can comprehend?

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