Salamence is Uber.

I think the primary argument I would use at this point to say that Salamence is uber is exactly what MoP said.

Salamence had such a huge impact on the metagame that removing it literally changes it completely. It doesn't matter whether you like the new metagame or not. Look at how DIFFERENT it is with one pokemon gone!

You can argue all day that Salamence shouldn't be uber, but look at the suspect ladder, especially later on after the Latias effect wore off, and see how different it is without Salamence.

Any single pokmeon that has that big of an impact on the metagame doesn't deserve to be there. The game shouldn't be Salamence centered like it was. Remember Garchomp, and the rise of ScarfCune? No, never again.
The same could be said if we banned Blissey, or a number of other pokemon. I can imagine there would be a lot more emphasis on special attacking if only players didn't have to worry about Blissey switching in. Only it's more difficult to perceive because Blissey has been working the same streets for 10 years, over three generations...while Salamence has just been getting all of this attention lately because of Outrage.

But really, just because something has a large presence within the game doesn't necessarily mean it's ban-worthy, it just means you have to take extra care to get around it. And only when there are few or no reasonable ways to do so should you consider banning.
 
Well, I think the reign of Dragons over the OU Metagame has now come to an end... Dragonite just doesn't fill the spot of Mence good enough to be a replacement, Flygon might have more options besides the wonderful little choice scarf, but I seriously doubt it's mediocre stats will let it do that, & there definitely won't be as many steel types around to counter the dragons. (Hopefully less Jirachis too!)

It definitely looks like the elemental starter types are going to to ake control of this metagame, which actually provides many more options than before. If something were to centralize the metagame, I'd have to say it would be Heatran or Infernape. Losing Mence just brings their already high standing even further.

I honestly don't think stallers are going to be around anymore than they were before, I don't see what the big talk about all of it is either. There aren't THAT many stallers in OU, & the few there are have at least one sure-fire counter. I see no reason Blissey would get used more like some people have been saying, I really don't think Salamence's uberization (new word) is going to make Machamp any worse, probably make it better.

I think I've dragged on my point long enough.
 

Chou Toshio

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There are numerous other arguments for the banning of Salamence but even if you focus just on the luck-based arguments, this is not a fair comparison. The stakes for "losing" a game of luck against Jirachi or Machamp are much lower than they are against Salamence. Even if you guess wrong against either of them, if you're running a decent team you shouldn't even be losing a Pokemon. There are plenty of Pokemon that can switch into both of them (how often does Machamp really use Payback or Stone Edge on its first turn out?),
For Machamp, the set that seems most broken to me is Anti-Lead, which runs Lum Berry. Rotom-A is not beating it with W-o-W, and even an Expert Belt Azelf is not Guaranteed a 1hko with Psychic. Sash has no chance. To me, that's pretty insane. You have to go with some very non-standard leads (expert belt Alakazam anyone?) to insure a "victory" against it, which is different from most other leads who have at least a few bad match ups.

and neither have moves that increase their speed. The only set that either of those two run that can sweep is CM Jirachi, which has a huge number of counters (Heatran, TTar, Ground types). By comparison, a wrong guess against Salamence is at best a lost Pokemon, and at worst a dragon dance sweep.
Putting aside that Jirachi has sets that own TTar and even ground types (I already touched on how I shouldn't HAVE to run Heatran), does it really matter whether the pokemon is looking to sweep or not? The biggest complaints about Salamence were directed at its ability to punch holes through teams. Jirachi and Machamp are both capable of doing some hefty wall breaking made even more easy with Hax.

As for CM Jirachi, if you don't happen to have one of its counters on your team, you are facing some serious issues, and with SR resistance, Jirachi can try to setup any number of times in a given match.

At least with mence, if you stopped it from setting up once, its SR weak seriously inhibits it from trying again successfully and instead of carrying specific counters you can easily carry any number of potential checks.

I also think it is worthy to give a nod to priority. Scizor and Lucario are not only stopping the DD sweep, but frankly they are pokemon you would WANT to preserve until the end anyway, seeing as late game priority sweep is where they excel, enemy mence or no.

I do see where you're coming from with Machamp, but there is a major difference between "damn this thing is annoying" and "holy shit it just KO'd half my team". 55 base speed is also makes machamp extremely easy to outspeed, even for stall teams.


Turns out Jirachi's coverage is pretty poor even when it uses all of its moveslots. Its moves also have low base power, and come from only 100 base attack / special attack. Salamence has perfect coverage with three moves and has higher attack and special attack than Jirachi. So while it may be true that Heatran counters the bulk of Jirachi's sets, there is a good chance that other Pokemon on your team will counter the set it is actually running (Swampert counters unless it has GK, TTar counters special sets, rotom counters physical sets). The threat of DD Salamence forces you to run either strong priority (i.e. CB Scizor) or a Scarfed pokemon with more than 100 base speed.
Do you really want to find out what Jirachi is carrying the hard way? You'll lose critical teammates fairly easily if you do that. At least with Mence, I know exactly what coverage he's packing-- Power Dragon STAB, and un-Stabbed Ground and Fire. No matter what set. Being able to know that from the get-go is pretty valuable imo.


Overall though, I can't believe we're arguing about whether Jirachi or Salamence are more suspect. That seems completely irrelevant to discussion.

My only point was that luck factors are not the biggest decision maker in the process (though I think it would be fair if they were given more honest consideration), and to point out that Salamence is not the only pokemon that forces things down to luck. In fact, any sweeper with good coverage will force similar situations.

I don't think you quite understand what happened with Shaymin-S. Serene Grace was really the icing on the cake of an extremely powerful pokemon. Saying that skymin had any 100% counters is patently false; in fact, there was not a single OU Pokemon that could reliably switch into the sub-seed set. Anything that even got close (scarf jirachi and scarf heatran) could be easily KO'd by Earth Power.

Saying Shaymin-S didn't hit hard enough is also pretty laughable, considering it had a STAB 120 base power move with an 80% chance to cut spdef in half. And it isn't like 120 base special attack is even close to being low.

Shaymin-S' movepool had extremely good coverage. Nothing switches into Seed Flare / Air Slash / Earth Power besides Zapdos, which had around a 70% chance to lose anyway if it switched into Seed Flare and SR.

The real powerhouse set was sub-seed, though. Shaymin-S is faster than every grass Pokemon and has a STAB move with a 60% chance to flinch that is super effective against everything that is immune to leech seed. If Jirachi had 25 more base speed and 20 more base attack and a 120 base power move with a ridiculous secondary effect then it would probably be worth banning too.
I am not about to argue about Shaymin-S in a thread that's about Salamence, or a salamence-less metagame.

However, I will point out that what you are saying about Shaymin-S is exhaggerated (if you want to say that Shaymin-S was overwhelmingly uber, because it wasn't) if only because the vote on Shaymin-S was by a paper thin margin.

@Hitting hard-- At the point where you, a grass pokemon, lose 1 on 1 to Tyranitar, a rock pokemon (you got 0% chance to 1hko with seed flare against 252 hp ttar, even after SR), and are in turn 1hko'd, I say you do not hit hard enough.

Bashing the suspect metagame after only a month isn't really fair...the metagame will likely change drastically as time goes on. I am reminded of my triple dragon triple steel team that dominated the latias suspect test which was impotent a few weeks later.
My intention was not really to bash. I apologize if it came across that way. My only aim was to deny the misconception that the metagame is destined to be any less cetralized or predictable as the last.

Mostly, because the current suspect meta is very similar to a metagame that we have already, in fact, had at one point in 4th gen's history. By definition, that means it is pretty predictable.

I agree that the council should be creating an entire ban list. Still, that does not mean that banning salamence is not a step in the right direction. I think it would be extremely difficult to create a balanced OU metagame with Salamence in it.
I think you are mis-reading the conversation. Banning 4th gen Salamence has nothing to do with 5th gen's tiering. Banning 4th gen Salamence is not a step in any direction with regards to 5th gen.

Depending on a council system that gets the job done much faster, is a step in the right direction for tiering processes.

Letting "everyone" vote on tiering is an incredibly bad idea. Having highly qualified members of the community make tiering decisions might not be great in terms of PR, but it certainly will yield better results.
While I am actually fine going in either direction on this point, you will find it very difficult to define the term "better results."

I'd be interested to see you try.
 

TAY

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I only brought up Jirachi, Machamp, and Shaymin-S because you were using them as examples in an attempt to show that the "luck factor" argument for salamence being uber is invalid. I attempted to show that the penalty for losing a game of luck against salamence is much heavier than against those others.

Saying Shaymin-S doesn't hit hard is ridiculous, considering the only things that hit harder than a Seed Flare in OU are Heatran's Magma Storm/Fire Blast/Overheat/Eruption and Roserade's Leaf Storm. I have already demonstrated that Skymin has good coverage, so I'm not sure what in OU you think does hit hard enough. Apparently Gengar, Starmie, Alakazam, Jolteon, Zapdos, Azelf, and Empoleon all do not.

"Better Results" means a more competitive metagame. In general, reducing the luck factor of the game will make it more competitive. There clearly needs to be a balance here, however; if we wanted a completely luck-less game we would all be playing pokemon-themed chess. I argue that both the high penalty for losing a game of luck against salamence, paired with the fairly high chance to lose the game of luck, are part of what makes salamence uber.

And to whoever is was that said we should be maximizing fun: you are absolutely correct! However, a competitive tier is designed for players who think that the most competitive metagame is the most fun metagame. If you think it is more fun to have more pokemon allowed, or you disagree that salamence makes the game less competitive, then that is fine - regardless of the results of the vote, I think that Salamence is the most borderline pokemon sent to ubers yet. But you must respect smogon's tiering process and the conclusion it came to. No one is being forced to play by Smogon's tier lists!
 
No one is being forced to play by Smogon's tier lists!
This is increasingly untrue as due to popularity, smogon is the only tier list that is used competitively.

As someone who ran a site with its own tier list, i must say that there is a good reason for the popularity of smogons tier list, as it is well kept, and the voting is only done by the best of the best.


Personally, i think tyranitar is a much more dominant force than mence, but thats more of an opinion.
 

TheValkyries

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People need to stop thinking fair is more fun.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. This ban was about fairness, and not fun. Fairness creates better (Read: More fair and skill based) competitive play, but better competitive play is not necessarily more fun. You lose the fun of the experience in real competitive play, and rarely do you feel good after a match that you know you were completely outplayed in, as opposed to being able to blame it on hax or something like Mence.

Let's put it this way, winning against disadvantages and adversity (read: Mence and other broken pokemon) is far more rewarding than winning against a team that gave you no disadvantages. Similarly, losing to a team that put you it a disadvantage isn't as bad as losing to a team that didn't.


If that didn't make sense, I'll put it in visual form. These are examples of how you feel about a match:

You were Disadvantaged (Facing Mence, Latias, etc):
Win = High (You beat something that's supposed to be broken, that's fucking cool)
Loss = Moderate (You expected the loss, I mean they are using something that's supposed to be broken)

Completely fair, no clear advantage:
Win = Moderate - High (A 6-0 ranging up to a Close Match)
Loss = Moderate - Low (Close Match ranging down to a 6-0)

So, going by pure fun value, Mence, and other slightly broken pokemon should NEVER have been banned, as it actually detracts from the net fun of the game if you do. Saying fair competition is more fun, is completely false, and a blinded way of thinking. Pure competition is never about fun. Do you even watch professional sports? How many people laugh and joke and say, "We were only out there to have fun" after they lose a game, or hell, even after winning a game. Absolutely none of them. So stop saying competitive play is more fun, because you're sorely mistaken.


Also, to the people who have said that everyone had the chance to use Mence, therefore it was fair. Stop and think about it for a second. If you bring a knife to a boxing match, that's obviously not fair. But if both competitors bring a knife, does that mean it's a fair Boxing match? Or maybe we need analogy more akin to a team game. Are you saying that steroids in baseball and other team sports is completely fair, as long as everyone has access to them? The answer to both is no, and if you sincerely think otherwise, than we are never going to agree to what is fair and what isn't, and you will obviously never understand why this ban was necessary.
 
Unpredictablility is a part of pokemon. The abliity to use pokemon in different ways is what makes the game special. Skill is being able to counter a pokemon even though it is unpredictable.
 

Conflict

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Why do people even assume that one Metagame is more fun than an other?

Each Metagame can be fun - fun is a subjective estimation anyways.

So dont argue any more with fun, some people might even enjoy a Garchomp/Latias-Metagame/whatever.

We should ban on a logical basis and nothing more.

(Well appearantly Latias was voted Uber by many voters due to her creating a un-fun Metagame - just saying.)
 

Chou Toshio

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@Conflict-- the problem is that there are a whole lot of possible logical conclusions.

I only brought up Jirachi, Machamp, and Shaymin-S because you were using them as examples in an attempt to show that the "luck factor" argument for salamence being uber is invalid. I attempted to show that the penalty for losing a game of luck against salamence is much heavier than against those others.
This is not necessarily true though, as mis-predicting Jirachi's set or getting confusion haxed could easily lead to one losing a pokemon (or more), which is the same price as losing a prediction match against Mixmence. How is that a different price?

Machamp's confusion hax can easily pick up free turns, and creating free turns is the biggest reason we banned wob (though obviously machamp is much less capable of taking advantage of these free turns, but it can still throw up substitutes or just go for the kill).

Furthermore, luck from prediction wars is frankly not as bad for the metagame as luck from hax. Prediction wars at least allow you some action and ability to influence the result. Hax is totally out of your hands. This is a key difference.

I think you're underplaying the effects such pokemon have on the metagame.
Saying Shaymin-S doesn't hit hard is ridiculous, considering the only things that hit harder than a Seed Flare in OU are Heatran's Magma Storm/Fire Blast/Overheat/Eruption and Roserade's Leaf Storm. I have already demonstrated that Skymin has good coverage, so I'm not sure what in OU you think does hit hard enough. Apparently Gengar, Starmie, Alakazam, Jolteon, Zapdos, Azelf, and Empoleon all do not.
How can you compare Shaymin's (terrible) Grass coverage to Empoleon's (awesome) Water coverage? Grass is one of the worst STAB types in the game, and it's an even worse defensive typing. Flying is a relatively good STAB type, but Air Slash's 75 base power is horrible. The only STABs it has with fair base power are grass moves, which are frankly-- terrible as STAB.

Even in a metagame without Shaymin-S, a good number of OU pokemon are resistant or even 4x resistant to grass. That's a big difference.

Leaf Storm would cut away Shaymin-S's advantage even more, and few players would pass up on using Seed Flare as its main STAB. If anything, Seed Flare is a step in the right direction for a grass move. Grass is resisted by so many types it is almost useless, but seed flare gives you some hope of turning a previously resisted move into a neutral move.

Rather, Grass' biggest problem is that it cannot hunt down the few targets it's good at killing (water, ground). Seed Flare, at the very least, has a chance to punish the many pokemon who shrug grass off like nothing. Even then, pokemon in OU can beat Shaymin-S even through the sp.D drop.

edit: Also, you are making a logical fallacy comparing Shaymin-S to Gengar, Empoleon, and other OU legal pokemon. I said "Shaymin-S does not hit hard enough." As in, Shaymin-S doesn't hit hard enough to be Uber. Bringing up other pokemon who also do not hit hard enough to be Uber, and are thus OU, has no relevance.

I will not deny that the luck factors involved (both Shaymin's Hax and it's low accuracy and low dependability), lead it to be an unpopular pokemon amongst strong players (I didn't use it), and probably deterred from "competitiveness," but then, I am not the one arguing that hax isn't the reason for it's ban.

I'm arguing that simply reducing luck, reducing hax in the meta is the reason why it was banned, that doing so is perfectly fine, and the frankly, examining Jirachi or Machamp with greater scrutiny for the same reasons would be justifiable. If not, frankly, the luck argument with Mence is even weaker.

"Better Results" means a more competitive metagame. In general, reducing the luck factor of the game will make it more competitive. There clearly needs to be a balance here, however; if we wanted a completely luck-less game we would all be playing pokemon-themed chess. I argue that both the high penalty for losing a game of luck against salamence, paired with the fairly high chance to lose the game of luck, are part of what makes salamence uber.
Your comment here is completely inconclusive, and also fails to answer the question of what benefits a council system brings that an open poll wouldn't.

I personally am in favor of a Council system, but rather I am only in favor because I prefer a faster result. If a fast open poll was possible, that would be fine with me.

If you feel otherwise, it is up to you and other members who think likewise to answer to all the uproar about disconnection between the majority of players and the decision making. I personally would be fine either way.

And to whoever is was that said we should be maximizing fun: you are absolutely correct! However, a competitive tier is designed for players who think that the most competitive metagame is the most fun metagame. If you think it is more fun to have more pokemon allowed, or you disagree that salamence makes the game less competitive, then that is fine - regardless of the results of the vote, I think that Salamence is the most borderline pokemon sent to ubers yet. But you must respect smogon's tiering process and the conclusion it came to. No one is being forced to play by Smogon's tier lists!
This statement is right on the money.
 

shrang

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Also, to the people who have said that everyone had the chance to use Mence, therefore it was fair. Stop and think about it for a second. If you bring a knife to a boxing match, that's obviously not fair. But if both competitors bring a knife, does that mean it's a fair Boxing match? Or maybe we need analogy more akin to a team game. Are you saying that steroids in baseball and other team sports is completely fair, as long as everyone has access to them? The answer to both is no, and if you sincerely think otherwise, than we are never going to agree to what is fair and what isn't, and you will obviously never understand why this ban was necessary.
It is fair because if you bring a knife to a boxing match, it is no longer a boxing match but a knife duel. Similarly, with the steroids example, it becomes a match of "who can match better steroids" than a baseball or whatever match. With the Salamence case, it is still a Pokemon battle. We're not using hacks or something like that which turn the game into a "Who can build a better hack". Salamence did not make the game any less competitive, if anything it made it more competitive because it forced people to think more about team-building, more about risk vs. reward and prediction in a battle and yada-yada. It wasn't like noobs could use Salamence as a weapon against the more skilled players, bad Salamence players wielded poorly played Salamences.
 

TheValkyries

proudly reppin' 2 superbowl wins since DEFLATEGATE
It is fair because if you bring a knife to a boxing match, it is no longer a boxing match but a knife duel. Similarly, with the steroids example, it becomes a match of "who can match better steroids" than a baseball or whatever match. With the Salamence case, it is still a Pokemon battle. We're not using hacks or something like that which turn the game into a "Who can build a better hack". Salamence did not make the game any less competitive, if anything it made it more competitive because it forced people to think more about team-building, more about risk vs. reward and prediction in a battle and yada-yada. It wasn't like noobs could use Salamence as a weapon against the more skilled players, bad Salamence players wielded poorly played Salamences.
An unfair advantage is still an unfair advantage even if both sides use it.

TheValkyries said:
and if you sincerely think otherwise, than we are never going to agree to what is fair and what isn't, and you will obviously never understand why this ban was necessary.
 

TAY

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This is not necessarily true though, as mis-predicting Jirachi's set or getting confusion haxed could easily lead to one losing a pokemon (or more), which is the same price as losing a prediction match against Mixmence. How is that a different price?
What's the worst that happens if you predict wrong against Jirachi? It subs as you use will-o-wisp? It uses Calm Mind as you switch Tyranitar out? You thought it was scarfed but it uses Grass Knot on your Swampert? Note that in these situations, Jirachi must use the surprise value of its set in order to get a KO or free turn. That's about all Jirachi has - surprise value. It lacks the raw power to go along with its versatility. So if the Jirachi user guesses wrong, there will likely be a penalty (or at least there will be a minimal gain). Of course, you can also "predict" by making a non-obvious move (e.g. tpunch on their tyranitar as they switch to gyarados), but since almost every Pokemon is capable of doing that it is certainly not a criteria towards banning any Pokemon.

Salamence, also has high versatility, but has complete coverage - with every move 100 base power or higher - with only three moves. (The extra moveslot is quite significant, with options such as Dragon Dance and Roost!) Jirachi must run some stupid shit like Psychic/Fire Punch/HP Ground or Fighting (OR ROCK SMASH!!!!) to get complete coverage. The raw power is a huge boost for Salamence here, since it is much easier to create situations in which it cannot possibly guess wrong (most likely, to score a KO with Draco Meteor). And even if Salamence guesses wrong, if the opponent switched then the switched-in Pokemon will likely take a huge amount of damage, and risks being KO'd if it stays in.

You could also argue that Jirachi's flinch hax with Iron Head allows it to unfairly score KOs. This is certainly true, but Iron Head (especially used consecutively) is so unreliable that it would hardly be comparable to Salamence even if it "guessed right" only 1/3 of the time (for example, if it must choose between Draco Meteor, Fire Blast, or Earthquake/Brick Break); and I think it is fair to say that a good Salamence player will can use it in situations with better odds than that. The chance to flinch even three times in a row is only about 20%...and while this 20% will certainly get you some KO's that you "shouldn't" get, flinch hax it is really only useful for finishing off a low health opponent, or scoring a two or three hit KO with neutral damage (I'm fairly certain you wouldn't argue that it is a huge problem for the metagame that Jirachi has like a 1/1000 chance of flinching swampert to death). Looking at the situation a different way, then, Iron Head is similar to if Jirachi had a higher base power move without a chance to flinch. Even though Jirachi may score some extra damage sometimes, the damage it will deal in total likely will not be more than if Jirachi had higher base attack and was using a stronger base power move. It is also worth noting that Steel is a really bad attacking type.

To conclude here:

Although Jirachi can match Salamence in versatility, it needs to use surprise value of its different sets to do it; Salamence can create a guessing game with only three moveslots. Additionally, Jirachi lacks the raw power of Salamence, and therefore has difficulty creating situations in which it "cannot lose"; Salamence can do this easily with high base power attacks, a superior attacking type, and higher attacking stats.

Finally, although the luck that Jirachi's Iron Head throws into the metagame is hardly desirable, it does not generally create a higher than normal damage output in comparison with damage done by the game's common physical attacks.

It's also worth noting that Salamence having Dragon Dance is a huge plus; I haven't mentioned it much in my arguments, but suffice it to say that Jirachi would probably be banned too if it had Dragon Dance. Huuuggeee threat.

Machamp's confusion hax can easily pick up free turns, and creating free turns is the biggest reason we banned wob (though obviously machamp is much less capable of taking advantage of these free turns, but it can still throw up substitutes or just go for the kill).
Machamp's low speed still makes it difficult to score more than a single KO, even if you play it perfectly. And it certainly poses no threat of sweeping. Dynamicpunch is annoying, but not enough to put it even close to on par with Salamence.

Furthermore, luck from prediction wars is frankly not as bad for the metagame as luck from hax. Prediction wars at least allow you some action and ability to influence the result. Hax is totally out of your hands. This is a key difference.
A "guessing game" has nothing to do with prediction; if you are guessing then you are obviously not predicting at all. This is how I think of it: "Prediction" really just refers to predicting the odds that your opponent will do something / have a certain pokemon or item or attack; guessing is when you know the odds and are trying to beat them (so a guess is similar to rolling a die). "Hax" refers to when the odds from guessing, but not from prediction, do not go in your favor - after all, it would seems silly to complain that your Machamp's turn 1 payback didn't hit a Rotom, since it was your own mismanagement of probabilities that did not return a favorable result. By contrast, it is common to mention hax if a Jirachi causes flinching twice and 3HKOs your Blissey. You know that the odds of not returning a favorable result are substantial in both cases, yet for some reason players like to complain when they get a poor dice roll. It sucks, but Pokemon is a game of probability management. The best players are those that can consistently manage the probabilities of any given event happening. So to get back to the snippet I just quoted, saying that hax is "out of your hands" but prediction is not is silly. They are simply different kinds of probabilities to be managed - one of which you know the odds of exactly, and one of which has odds you must estimate.

To swing this back around to Salamence, as soon as Salamence comes out you must make a prediction (assume what set/item/nature it is using). If it comes in a subsequent time you will likely be forced to guess what move it will use. While this is the same functionality as most other Pokemon, Salamence's versatility and power make it likely that there will be know always-safe plays the next time it comes in. Even with Jirachi, once you see one move from the set and what item it has (or doesn't have) you will probably be able to determine a safe play. With Salamence, even if you have already learned the set and the move it is unlikely that you will have a safe play, even if your entire team is alive and well. In short, Salamence makes it difficult for even the best battler to play the odds correctly.

This is really the heart of the issue, and it explains why Salamence deserves to be banned but some "luck based" Pokemon do not. We are not trying to eliminate as much luck (i.e. probabilities to manage) as possible from the game, we are merely trying to keep luck at a reasonable level, since those conditions allow better players to flourish. In my opinion, Salamence provided unreasonable odds to competitive Pokemon players and therefore belongs in the uber tier.

If you do not like games of probability management then you should switch to chess. It can be pokemon-themed if you like associating it with a children's media franchise.

stuff about shaymin-s
I think we're gonna have to just disagree about skymin; we're getting way off topic with it.

Your comment here is completely inconclusive, and also fails to answer the question of what benefits a council system brings that an open poll wouldn't.

I personally am in favor of a Council system, but rather I am only in favor because I prefer a faster result. If a fast open poll was possible, that would be fine with me.

If you feel otherwise, it is up to you and other members who think likewise to answer to all the uproar about disconnection between the majority of players and the decision making. I personally would be fine either way.
Oh, I didn't know you were asking about the benefits of a council system =P

The main advantage, as you point out, is speed. The previous process was comparatively slow and tedious.

The council also has a good chance of producing a good result (i.e. a more competitive metagame; see my previous post). A group of players who are both experienced and powerful battlers, have a good grasp of the theory behind the game, and are generally intelligent seems appropriate to make tiering decisions for the community. Part of the reason the council system was implemented (well really, the reason the paragraphs and battling criteria were implemented way back when, and the reason we kept a small number of qualified voters for the council) were to exclude unqualified voters. Say what you will about "smogon elitism" or whatever, but Joe Random with 45 posts and a 1050 CRE should not have the same impact on something as important as tiering decisions as players like MoP and reachzero do.

I don't want to offend anybody, but most Smogon users are unfortunately unqualified to vote on tiering issues (I won't get into why, but "look at some of the posts in this thread"). For this reason, an open poll is out of the question. Sorry, this isn't really a democracy =| though in all fairness, any player does have an opportunity to vote. A huge number of the people complaining about Salamence being uber did not even apply to be on the council.

Most if not all of the voters from the previous process were probably qualified to vote; the only reason to adopt the council system over that one is speed and ease (the old one was a lot more work).

So yeah to sum up tl;dr
 
An unfair advantage is still an unfair advantage even if both sides use it.
I would argue that two teams both using an "unfair advantage" is in fact fair (as neither team gains an advantage over the other), but that isn't the reason that all teams are banned from using it.
 

shrang

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An unfair advantage is still an unfair advantage even if both sides use it.
Firstly, what do you define to be "fair"?? "Fair" is such an ambiguous word. If both sides use the alleged "unfair" advantage, how is now "unfair"?? If I gave person A to spend $100 and then I give person B $105, but then compensate person A by giving him an extra $5, is this unfair?? If you believe banning Salamence made the game fair, you are deluding yourself or just plain naive. There is no such thing as being "fair" in Pokemon, and this applies to everything else that exists. There is a reason why communism doesn't work. I hate to break it to you, but fairness does not and will never exist.

Anyway, that said, I don't disagree with the council's vote. It is final and I respect it. The council does believe in a more competitive metagame with Salamence banned, not a fairer one, while at the same time, more fun. Competition revolves around the fact that some people are better than others, which is completely opposite of being fair.

and if you sincerely think otherwise, than we are never going to agree to what is fair and what isn't, and you will obviously never understand why this ban was necessary.
More of this "If you don't agree then we have nothing else to say", is it??
 

Chou Toshio

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Oh, I didn't know you were asking about the benefits of a council system =P

The main advantage, as you point out, is speed. The previous process was comparatively slow and tedious.

The council also has a good chance of producing a good result (i.e. a more competitive metagame; see my previous post). A group of players who are both experienced and powerful battlers, have a good grasp of the theory behind the game, and are generally intelligent seems appropriate to make tiering decisions for the community. Part of the reason the council system was implemented (well really, the reason the paragraphs and battling criteria were implemented way back when, and the reason we kept a small number of qualified voters for the council) were to exclude unqualified voters. I don't want to offend anybody, but most Smogon users are unqualified to vote on tiering issues (I won't get into why, but "look at some of the posts in this thread"). For this reason, an open poll is out of the question. Sorry, this isn't really a democracy =| though in all fairness, any player does have an opportunity to vote. A huge number of the people complaining about Salamence being uber did not even apply to be on the council.

Most if not all of the voters from the previous process were probably qualified to vote; the only reason to adopt the council system over that one is speed and ease (the old one was a lot more work).

So yeah to sum up tl;dr
TAY-- I think you'll forgive me for letting the Jirachi/Machamp/Shaymin discussion go, as it's kinda off course of the discussion. It's relevant to Salamence's tiering (and tiering in general), but it's not really relevant to the new menceless metagame. If you really want to talk about it more, feel free to PM me. I think you have to admit at least that there are valid enough points on both sides that we could argue all day about it-- but hey, if there is such room to argue, maybe we should "suspect" them! After all, it's just suspect right?? :P

Anyway, about the council. I'm actually the one who brought up discussion about a faster system and even backed the suggestion for a Council in PR. I myself have a lot of faith in our most established players, and believe that speed and decisiveness are more important/valuable than any (frankly small) issues we may have including or not including pokemon bordering Uber and OU levels of power.

That said, I backed a Council system because, again frankly, Smogon has a kinda elitist personality, and I figured a Council system would be more easily accepted/implemented by our administration than any call to open and more liberal voting. Either way, I only care that things get done faster.

That said, Ala brings up the point that it is (technically) possible to involve the community while still maintaining speed-- you just need to be less picky about the voter pool, and use less scrutiny over the reasoning and quality of the voters.

Now, while that might seem like a bad thing, you have to realize that any time you limit the voter pool, you also have the potential for negatives as well.

Cons of a Council System (smaller group):

Bias: If you use less people, you will get more bias, and these can arise in any number of means. Perhaps most ladder users who reach a certain level all reach a certain attitude about the meta that could lead to decisions that are actually bad for instance. There's also the concern that they do not have any consideration for the opinions of the overall community. I will go over this more later.

Bias (b): Sadly, not everyone has in our community has as much love for or faith in Jump and Aeolus as you or I have. There are unfortunately, a lot of members in our group who would do not trust them to pick council members without bias (I happen to trust them whole-heartedly, I am just making this clear because it's too easy to mis-construe irony over the internet). There may be concern that they ultimately have whole say in picking the council members.

Representation: Frankly, the game is not played by only the best players of the league. It is played by all, and belongs to all. While we are focused on competition and developing what is competitive, it is not just the top players but all the players who take part in making that competition meaningful. Therefore, we have to question whether the decisions made by a potentially biased council are truly in the best interest of the competitive community and metagame as a whole.



. . . but frankly the points I just raised are pretty trivial in my opinion. They are all kinda vague and unimportant, especially if you are one of the many members who do have faith in the best of "our own" (I fall into this category myself).


That said TAY, there's little proof that using "better players" leads to "better decisions"-- especially when you cannot concretely define what "better" is.

At least if your voter pool is more inclusive, you can point to the real value added by saying that you followed the will of the community. [sarcasm]Than if things get fucked up you can shrug and say, "Hey, not our fault-- we just did what everyone wanted!"[/sarcasm]


. . . on a serious and frank note though, there really is no "fucking up" in this. There's no 100% right or wrong in any of this after all, and with a pokemon like Salamence who, you too said was the "most borderline ever," the decision to ban it or not is really not all that important to the competitiveness or health of the metagame overall.

It's trivial enough that I'd be happier with our Council system or a 1-week test with open pole that I'd be with our previous Suspect Process.
 

TheValkyries

proudly reppin' 2 superbowl wins since DEFLATEGATE
Competition in it's simplest form is this. It's when two players/teams come together and play a clean match, where neither team has an unfair advantage, and the victor wins on skill alone.

When two teams have an unfair advantage over the other, the advantages don't cancel each other out, they are still present, and it can no longer be argued that the game was won on skill alone, as no one knows what could have happened if the unfair advantages weren't present. Such a circumstance could never be called fair skill-based competition.

In pokemon terms this means, maybe you could have won if your Gliscor wasn't taken down by MixMence, or maybe the pokemon that wasn't MixMence could still have left enough of a dent in Gliscor to allow the opponent to win. Maybe you couldn't have swept as easily if your DDMence was SD Lucario instead, or maybe you had the team weakened enough that Luke could've swept anyway. Maybe you're opponent would have won if his Mence beat yours in the speed tie, etc. No matter which way you spin it, you can never know what the outcome would have been. And you cannot say with absolutely certainty that your win had nothing to do with your advantage, because you simply can't know whether it did or not, unless you don't use it.

Mence causes these unfair advantages, and it's because of that this ban was necessary. It is for that very reason why we even ban things at all; to create a more fair and skill-based metagame. Not to find the metagame that is most fun.
 

Chou Toshio

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TheValkaries-- Refine you logic:

Define "unfair."

Address that there is no "skill alone" in pokemon.

a) As TAY has mentioned earlier, you have to address that competitive pokemon actually needs hax, that there is no way to eliminate luck or hax from competitive pokemon. It's just a matter of limiting them to an acceptable level*.

*acceptable is by definition, subjective and requires human judgement to determine.

b) No matter how even skill levels are, Pokemon will always have teams that match well or badly against certain other teams. There is no ultimate team, and so bad match ups will always mean that potential losses unrelated to skill.


Even if you look specifically into how it is Salamence forced things down to luck, that is 50-50 prediction matches, you have to admit that it's far from the only pokemon who caused this, or even far from the only pokemon who caused this on a regular basis. Try fighting with or against a Flygon in late game, and you'll see that 50/50 match ups are often what it comes down to.

Even with Deoxys-S banned, the lead game still often comes down to who gets Taunt first, or a 50-50 prediction battle that could decide the outcome of the entire game.

If Mence was banned due to these 50-50 non-skill prediction wars, it's not because it made them (since there are lots made by lots of other pokemon), but because it made them to an unacceptable degree. If you use the word "unacceptable" you naturally have to admit that this is a judgement value, not a decision of "right" or "wrong"-- not black or white, but an unacceptable color of grey.


In short, there is no absolute "right" or "wrong" in any of this. It all comes down to judgement values and subjective decision ultimately. There is no way to define/decide "What is best for competitive pokemon" without it coming down to individual opinions. The only thing that does matter, what we can control, is:

"Whose opinion do we use?"
 
Alright, question for you guys.

Why is Shaymin so happy now that Salamence is gone?

Shaymin running HP Ice can OHKO any form of Mence as long as it has more than 80 SpA IVs.

SubSeed Shaymin could 2HKO anything except SpecsMence; Band can't even 2HKO SubMin, DDMence can't do enough damage with a Special move, and MixMence gets outspeeded.

So honestly I don't see how Shaymin would get any more use unless you guys don't run HP Ice for some reason. One set of Shaymin gets to escape from one set of Salamence that would have killed it, why is that such a big deal? : /
 
Whoever said that the metagame was more fun without Mence, packing a Breloom counter on every team (there are only like 3 good ones) is not my idea of fun.
 

TheValkyries

proudly reppin' 2 superbowl wins since DEFLATEGATE
-Unfair would be anything that you can control to put you at an advantageous situation no matter what you face.

-I specified competition in it's simplest form is based on skill alone. But much of Pokemon is still based on skill, be it skill in team-building or play itself. The better, and more skilled player should win. At least, that's the kind of metagame we are searching for. It's not about the 50:50 chance, it's about the fact that things like Mence require little skill, no support, and can make a major difference in every single game.

My definition of unfair also answers these points soundly.

A) You can't control hax, but you can control when you use Mence. By simply putting him on your team he's going to tear into the opponents team with minimal effort allowing holes to be opened to make victory easier/possible. Hax can do the exact same, but you're never guaranteed that it will happen every game.

B) If one team has an obvious advantage over the other, then someone has a bad team. And if they don't, and the opponent simply built a purely better team, then the better player won, so there is nothing unfair about that.
 

SJCrew

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I played for a good two hours today. I didn't see any stall and I didn't see Breloom on every single team. I saw it on a few and got around it by U-turning off its sub and into something that resisted Focus Punch. Once Breloom loses its sub, it stops being scary and loses to basically everything.

I also saw some Dragonite too. It's still slow as hell and doesn't have Intimidate, so it will never rise to Salamence's stature.

Of course, I saw a couple of people taking advantage of the fact that Salamence hadn't been implemented to the ban list yet, and it was a dick as usual, but other than that....thank God it's gone. I think we did the right thing here.
 

Chou Toshio

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-Unfair would be anything that you can control to put you at an advantageous situation no matter what you face.
This is a flawed definition for 2 reasons:

a) Salamence does not succeed in achieving this, because the opponent often has an opportunity to shirk that advantage through prediction.

b) There are many OU pokemon who do in fact, generate situations that would be "unfair" by your definition on a regular basis.

Breloom comes in on slower pokemon. Breloom uses Spore.

Lum Berry Machamp comes in on pokemon it beats, or leads against a pokemon it beats.

Scizor switches into a pokemon it can kill with U-Turn.

Flygon switches into a pokemon it can kill with U-Turn.

Jirachi switches into a pokemon it can kill with U-Turn.

Pokemon A switches into pokemon B that cannot kill its Substitute.

Scarf-Tar switches into faster Pursuit-Weak pokemon.

I can keep going, but the mark of good teams and good players is often being able to systematically create situations that give the enemy no chance to predict or respond and gain advantage regardless of what the enemy does. In fact, this is the very basis for the strategy "stall," trying to create a team that can gain advantage slowly but surely no matter what the enemy does.

-I specified competition in it's simplest form is based on skill alone.
I'll apologize for missing this point.
But much of Pokemon is based on skill, be it skill in team-building or play itself. The better, and more skiled player should win. At least, that's the kind of metagame we are searching for. Things like Mence require little skill, no support, and can make a major difference in every single game.
You say "mence requires little skill," but you have no way of backing up that statement with proof. It is a statement that cannot be "proven" and yet you state it like fact and base your argument on it as if it were fact. Am I supposed to take this seriously?

-My definition of unfair answers these points soundly.
Your definition is flawed. I specifically asked you to define it because it cannot be properly defined.

"Unfair" is a value statement word, so it is ridiculous for you to use it like a fact statement word. You should have realized this was what I was getting at.

A) You can't control hax, but you can control when you use Mence. By simply putting him on your team he's going to tear into the opponents team with minimal effort allowing holes to be opened to make victory easier/possible. Hax can do the exact same, but you're never guaranteed that it will happen every game.
This is simply outrageously untrue.

B) If one team has an obvious advantage over the other, then someone has a bad team. And if they don't, and the opponent simply built a purely better team, then the better player won, so there is nothing unfair about that.
Again, untrue. Just because Team A has a bad match up with Team B, that doesn't mean it is necessarily a worse team, because it could have a better match up against Team C, who might be better against Team B. That is such a simply and obvious point of team building, I really have no idea what to say to you.


I'm having a harder and harder time taking your points seriously.
 
Chou, I really like that I agree entirely with your logic process, and yet we happen to differ on the final value judgments. I think that's kind of cool and interesting. :)
 
a) Salamence does not succeed in achieving this, because the opponent often has an opportunity to shirk that advantage through prediction.
This. Usually any Salamence I used to face with my stall team would either come in on Swampert if it was mixed or Blissey or Tentacruel if it was DD. For the DD ones, I would either go to a healthy Swampert to take its +1 Outrage and kill it with Ice Beam or, if I was more desparate, switch to Skarmory to take a Fire Blast and Whirlwind it out. Often times it got stuck in on Outrage trying to kill something and Skarmory would just sit there and Roost off the damage until it got confused and switched out.

For the mixed ones, I would go to Blissey to take the Draco Meteor and then to Skarmory to take the Earthquake/Outrage and force it out (-2 Fire Blast can't 2HKO Skarmory). Salamence did often get a kill on my team but things like Lucario, Breloom, and Machamp were just as much of a pain to deal with.

Anyway, I've begun using a team that uses Breloom to lure out some counters and then sweeps with Lucario. It's working pretty well since Breloom usually puts one of Luacrio's biggest counters to Sleep and often gives it a free turn of set-up.
 

SJCrew

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a) Salamence does not succeed in achieving this, because the opponent often has an opportunity to shirk that advantage through prediction.
The Salamence player is allowed that same liberty because prediction is a two-way street. And predicting correctly doesn't mean Salamence is dead nor that it's suddenly anything other than completely broken. On the other hand, if you predict wrong, your Pokemon is dead. You have a higher chance of being wrong because DDMence and MixMence both have perfect coverage and a completely different (not to mention limited) list of checks/viable switch-ins.

EDIT: ok wow, there's more wrong with Chou's post than I realized. Will edit in a bit.
EDIT 2: on second thought, it's mostly semantics. YOU MAY PROCEED
 

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