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Discussion in 'OverUsed' started by TaBuu, Oct 14, 2013.
Like I said before, does anyone else besides me run max Spe to outrun opposing Talonflames? >_>
Well ... I did came across one dude that outsped mine despite havin almost perfect EVs on it soo .. that makes two .. unless if you was that one person. :P now about the thing before ..
Sorry then, thought you suggested that we outspeed Terrakion too. Well, if Pinsir becomes a common thing, that should be good, but if it's a very rare thing, enough to outspeed positive 100s should be fine. Unless if you are worried about max speed Talonflame, which could be a thing eventually, kinda like in the past with Ninjask.
Base 81 with investment is a ways away from base 74 with no investment, though. How many SpA EVs do you run?
Talonflame @ Life Orb
Ability: Gale Wings
EVs: 60 Spd / 252 SAtk / 196 Atk
- Brave Bird
- Hidden Power [Ground]
Yes I know it's compromising Attack somewhat, but the idea isn't to sweep, it's to blast shit with Overheat earlygame and hit Heatran with HP Ground (hopefully with some hazards up) so you can clean lategame with Brave Bird.
Well, that looks quite unique .. I kinda want to check it out and see if it actually works. For you to post it here I assume that it does what you state that it does.
Still Life Orb will probably be the better solution. Sure, Shell Bell can in theory recover more than leftovers, but Talonflame probably won't last long anyway. But it is worth testin imo, who knows, it could prove viable.
I myself run either sky plate/sharp beak or choice band, because I have him with a LO greninja
Expert belt greninja could be Viable to give my Talonflame the life orb however.
Running Taloflame in the Battle maison, Swords dance/bulk up and then Shell bell was quite potent, not the Ideal testing area, but it wasn't bad,
Extending Mattman324's initial core, here are some teammates that work well with me:
Talonflame @ Flying Gem / Life Orb
Ability: Gale Wings
EVs: 196 HP / 252 Atk / 60 Spd
- Acrobatics / Brave Bird
- Swords Dance
- Flare Blitz
- Roost / U-Turn
Myself, of course,
Blastoise @ Blastoisinite
Ability: Rain Dish
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SAtk / 4 SDef
- Rapid Spin
- Dark Pulse
- Water Pulse
- Aura Sphere
MBlastoise can handle any spin-blocker this gen 1 on 1, and takes care of rocks for me,
Gourgeist-Super @ Leftovers
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SDef / 4 Spd
- Will-O-Wisp / Pain Split
- Leech Seed
- Shadow Sneak
- Seed Bomb
and Gourgeist-Super. She laughs in the face of Rotom-Ws that think they can do anything to me. Hydro Pump? She takes it like a champ, and can 2HKO back with Seed Bomb. She can also take Volt Switches aimed at me and Blastoise with ease (benefits of a FWG core), and WoW or seed the incoming switch. In addition, seed bomb also picks off rock types that switch into my Flare Blitzs, and can even take on (some) T-tar one on one.
But Blastoise does need some wish support, though; because no lefties wears him down really quickly after taking repeated hits.
Also, I see a lot of people using me wrong: I'm not meant as a lead or a generic frail sweeper; instead I should be used as a late game cleaner, generally the last pokemon to be switched in. After being worn down by Gourgeist's seeds and hopefully some rocks, I can come in and finish off a weakened team with insane priority BBs; not wasted early game just to be picked off later.
Respect the Talonflame.
Why not use natural gift with either fighting or ground type? You can SD and smash Heatran or Ttar, whichever you prefer.
That's the main reason why I'm avoiding Pokebank OU until they actually implement in-game mechanics, like the 1.3 boost of Flying Gem, the Parental Bond + Earthquake effect in singles, etc. As it is now, the usage of Gems is seriously overpowered, and makes some sets look a lot better than they really are.
Back on to Talonflame, I kinda want to pair one up with the likes of Gastrodon. Gastrodon slurps up any water attacks aimed at Talonflame, is immune to Thunder wave and Electric attacks, and Talonflame covers Gastrodon's crippling Grass weakness. I feel like these two would work wonders on a team with Rapid Spin support.
The problem with Natural Gift is that it's super easy to have the Salac berry activate. Obviously, you never actually want that, but Talonflame gets worn down faster than just about anything, so it can be difficult to actually use it in time before you look like an idiot for running Salac berry on something so absurdly fast already. I prefer to just give up on hoping to hit Tyranitar and Heatran and use Tailwind on their obvious switch ins to get that tasty momentum. Also, I'm really hoping for Superpower via third version tutors, a la Braviary.
Is it worth trying to outspeed things that are faster but weak to fire? Steel types are typically high in defense and you won't have any luck against rock types anyway. I guess electric types are worth hitting, but it's probably safer to switch out against something that can OHKO.
Signing in just to comment on this monster. People don't seem to realize Talonflame carries Roost. Just played a game with a LO Adamant Talonflame, and after a Swords Dance I steamrolled his team, but he expected to come in and pick me off with a Bullet Punch from Scizor.... Priority Roost (from 20% Healthy) and then I proceeded to Brave Bird and win. As for tiering concerns, Talonflame is a peculiar case in terms of typing, but the sheer power it gets from Priority and how miraculously good Flying moves in OU will cement it as a Top OU threat. Unprepared teams that can't take more than one BB/FB on a switch will get stomped on by the Phoenix. And what I love about Talonflame is that you don't really have to dedicate a spot to it as a "Physical Sweeper". It runs Swords Dance to power-up, yes. But it's main purpose is to threaten with ridiculous STAB, and with said threat, it allows you to Swords Dance when they switch out (and possibly muscle through counters if you have any sort of hazards already up).
Been running with a Talonflame+MegaGar wall breaking core, with my main "sweeper" being Dragonite. Talon and Gar poke massive holes in other teams, sometimes to the point of not needing Dragonite to set up and win.
To be honest I have been running 252 HP / 252+ Atk / 4 Spd for simplicity along with Roost and it works out in every single situation EXCEPT against other Talonflames. This can be a big deal so it's really up to preference and your team.
Certainly running max speed is not the single best option, but it is a decent one. Talonflame just has some rather precious resists that make HP investment very appealing to me. The opponent generally won't know what your EVs are so keeping things like Excradill in is very risky also.
Talonflame already outspeeds everything weak to fire.
Fire hits them neutral while they resist flying. If you don't OHKO, you'll probably die to the super effective counter-attack.
Who would keep Talonflame in on an electric type anyway? Unless you have a gaurenteed KO you're better off switching out.
That means investing in speed is probably a waste, then.
Nobody expects the Max speed Talonflame. NOBODY.
Unless they're running bulky mons. Then you kinda just die from your own recoil. >_>
Seriously though, max speed is great for demolishing opposing Talonflames. It's just that you're ridiculously frail because of that, and have to either Roost more, have Wish support, or suicide with a bang. That's why my Talonflame's name is Kamikaze It's something worth considering, though, if you don't have that many good counters to opposing Talonflames.
I just started running Max ATT, Max Spe... Hence why the scenario I described against Scizor was possible (got priority off quicker because of higher Speed).
You would have outrun Scizor even without investing in speed.
Talonflame naturally outspeeds a lot of priority users without speed investment. The extra HP is really beneficial due to all the Brave Birds it's firing off. If I feel like beating other bulky Talonflames, I'll run 248 HP/252+ Atk/8 Spd to speed creep, but max speed doesn't seem worth it.
I noticed that when actually typing it, but was reluctant to delete the message. Regardless, I like the speed investment, as I can get off Flare Blitzes in case (emergencies) it is the only move I can use in a situation and I need the speed to hit it first, with the lack of priority.
The only pokemon that situation applies to is fast electric types. You'll want to switch out against rock types and you can outspeed steel types. Just bring something that resists electric and invest in bulk so you can throw out more brave birds.
I'll just post a list of what Talonflame could aim to outspeed: (I could be missing things, who knows?)
-0 Speed EVs: 288 Speed. Outspeeds Fully invested +Speed Base 81s and below (Diggersby, Mega Heracross, Scizor, Dragonite, etc.), or neutral-natured fully invested Base 94s and below (Adamant/Modest Lucario prior to Mega evolution, etc.)
-60 Speed EVs: 303 Speed. Outspeeds Fully invested +Speed Base 88s (Jolly Excadrill).
-76 Speed EVs: 307 Speed. Outspeeds Fully invested +Speed Base 90s (Jolly/Timid non-Mega Lucario)
-156 Speed EVs: 327 Speed. Outspeeds Fully invested +Speed Base 99s (+Speed Genesect)
-164 Speed EVs: 329 Speed. Outspeeds Fully invested +Speed Base 100s (+Speed Jirachi)
-176 Speed EVs: 332 Speed. Outspeeds Fully invested +Speed Base 101s (+Speed Thundurus-T)
-208 Speed EVs: 339 Speed. Outspeeds Fully invested +Speed Base 105s (+Speed Mega Pinsir)
-236 Speed EVs: 347 Speed. Outspeeds Fully invested +Speed Base 108s (Jolly Cobalion)
-136 Speed EVs: 354 Speed. Outspeeds Fully invested +Speed Base 111s (+Speed Thundurus-I)
-144 Speed EVs: 356 Speed. Outspeeds Fully invested +Speed Base 112s (+Speed Mega Lucario)
-164 Speed EVs: 361 Speed. Outspeeds Fully invested Scarfed +Speed Base 60s (Timid Scarf Magnezone)
-168 Speed EVs: 363 Speed. Outspeeds Fully invested +Speed Base 115s (Timid Raikou)
-248 Speed EVs: 385 Speed. Outspeeds Fully invested +Speed Base 125s (Jolly Weavile)
-252 Speed EVs: 386 Speed. Max speed.
I bolded the ones that are the most relevant in OU.
So, I personally will be running 80 HP / 252 Atk / 176 Spe Adamant post-Pokebank, and 196 HP / 252 Atk / 60 Spe Adamant pre-Pokebank. But you can pick these as you see fit. For example, if you think that only being able to OHKO Genesect after one Swords Dance is fine, and relying on teammates to kill Jirachi and Thundurus-T is fine too, then you can run as low as 60 Speed EVs.
Just had my first 6v6 wifi battle with this thing (previously only did 3v3) and oh my god, this bird. If the opponent's counters are neutralized or if they don't have anything to check it like Stealth Rock, this thing owns. As said before, I run 4HP/252Atk/252Spe with Sky Plate and Brave Bird/Flare Blitz/Roost/U-Turn because I'm a troll, but even though it's not necessarily the best EV spread, it does its job beautifully. Seriously, if you know their bulky counters are gone, not even resists will save you from this bird of doom.
...I think I might have to stick SR or have two counters for this thing from now on. It's goddamn scary.