Because I haven't actually beaten the game yet, so I haven't had a chance to catch one that has Gale Wings.
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Pokémon Talonflame
- Thread starter TaBuu
- Start date
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I haven't had time to read this whole thread, but from what I can see in the Original Post, there is no mention of a Will-o-Wisp set, with Roost...
The set would function like so:
Talonflame @ Leftovers
Ability: Gale Wings
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 Atk / 4 Def
Jolly Nature
- Will-O-Wisp
- Roost
- Brave Bird
- U-turn
Talonflame can still revenge kill with STAB priority Brave Bird, but with this set it can handle some its best checks/counters like Rotom-W, burn them Roost of the damage and not need to switch out with the use of a CB or a purely-offensive set... U-turn is there for momentum. The EV's make sure Talonflame can outspeed the vast majority of the metagame and Will-o-Wisp them, the Attack is to carry Talonflame's Base 81 Attack into a decent range and the 4 Def, is so that it can live two stealth rocks and survive (The HP is odd).
Apologies if this set has already been posted...
The set would function like so:
Talonflame @ Leftovers
Ability: Gale Wings
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 Atk / 4 Def
Jolly Nature
- Will-O-Wisp
- Roost
- Brave Bird
- U-turn
Talonflame can still revenge kill with STAB priority Brave Bird, but with this set it can handle some its best checks/counters like Rotom-W, burn them Roost of the damage and not need to switch out with the use of a CB or a purely-offensive set... U-turn is there for momentum. The EV's make sure Talonflame can outspeed the vast majority of the metagame and Will-o-Wisp them, the Attack is to carry Talonflame's Base 81 Attack into a decent range and the 4 Def, is so that it can live two stealth rocks and survive (The HP is odd).
Apologies if this set has already been posted...
I really like this idea honestly, although maybe substitute > roost to make a subroost set? Doesn't have much bulk but it's an idea. Rocks would bone you like usual but nothing new. It could probably spreads burns well enough, plus some surprise factor. The only problem with that is that a lot of things that come in on talonflame anyway don't really care about burns, basically rotom and heatran. You could probably stall out ttar with burn +subroost. Overall it might not be that good of an idea but it's there lol.
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Anyway, now to what I want to bring up, and that is the use of dugtrio to help talonflame. Not sure how many people have tried or considered it, or if it has been mentioned earlier in the thread, but it would I honestly am a little surprised that dugtrio isn't used in the slightest just for supporting talonflame. It makes a band set all the more deadly, as 2 mons that normally counter talonflame in general, ttar and heatran, get ruined if they come in as talonflame u-turns (which all cb talonflames spam) as ttar is left with about 50% after uturn, putting it in dugtrio's kiling range, while heatran is straight up OHKO'd by eq. This puts those who use heatran or tyranitar in an awkward position because their talonflame counter can't even counter talonflame.
IMO you would probably be better off running adamant (just checked the usage on the smogon damage calc and jolly was the more used nature), as adamant ensures that dugtrio kills its targets.
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame U-turn vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 170-200 (42 - 49.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO.
252+ Atk Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 240-284 (59.4 - 70.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO.
252 Atk Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 218-258 (53.9 - 63.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO.
Assuming that the user gets minimum or very close to minimum rolls ttar would actually have a chance to survive jolly eq. It's is highly unlikely that this scenario occurs because it assumes minimum damage rolls, no hazards, and that ttar is at full, and jolly might be worth it anyway since even if it does survive talonflame laughs at the remaining health that ttar has left.
Sure, rotom-w and landorus-t, who both do at least a decent job (great in rotom's case) in countering talonflame, don't care about dugtrio in the slightest, but hey, team support. With my last words on this longer post I will add that mega-gyarados with earthquake breaks nearly everything that stands in talonflame's way, it just comes without the benefit of trapping.
Yeh, it isn't the best set Talonflame can run, and Heatran still forces switches but burns take its toll on Rotom, another of its counters. Roost is amazing priority reliable recovery... But Substitute doesn't get priority unfortunately U-turn is integral in this set and it is a great momentum move.
Allow me to point out the reason that Mega Banette is so feared is because it has access to priority Destiny Bond. However, its defenses are still as pathetic as ever, and outside of Trick Room, a Gale Wings Talonflame would have access to +1 priority Brave Bird that could take out Mega Banette before it could use its +1 priority Destiny Bond. Because unless I'm mistaken, if two Pokemon have access to priority via Prankster or Gale Wings, the one with the higher Speed stat goes first if both moves have the same level of priority, unless Trick Room has already been set up.
It's quite funny, bringing Talonflame out against something it counters, and setting up SD on it due to everyone eexpecting a CB Talonflame, then killing with a +2 sharp beak brave bird. And provided Tyranitar and the other things that wall it it's practically Gg from what I noticed. Even if not and you did it alittle early you've usually weakens them enough to sweep. Ultimately Cb Talonflame is better, but when your opponents expected a CB one this can be better.
I have 2 Talonflames, one is jolly with CB and 4 attacks and the other one is adamant with dual stab roost and sword dance. I prefer the sword dance Talonflame, its not easy to get the chance to set up but when you do it will fuck shit up.
This. Heh, I decided to wipe the dust off my keyboard to shed some of my input and experience in using Talonflame as a great stall breaker, that is, having a great time disrupting what currently is used in the metagame right now. A lot of users have (in my opinion) been overlooking that great utility Talonflame can provide it's team, backed with STAB priority 120 BP Brave Bird is quite terrifying for most teams to face.
Great utility moves such as Taunt & Will-o-Wisp, as well as, a great recovery option in Roost, which, given the amazing amount of free turns and switches it can nab with it's threatening presence easily gives it a chance to heal off chip damage from Brave Bird and Stealth Rocks.
A set I have been using to great success is one consisting of Brave Bird, Taunt, Will-o-Wisp & Roost. The set does a great job of shutting down stall and bulky offence teams, as well as being highly disrupting to baton pass seeing as it is a major threat to Scolipede and can taunt any Pokemon besides Espeon (which doesn't like taking a Brave Bird to the face).
Stall Breaker
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move 1: Brave Bird
move 2: Taunt
move 3: Will-o-Wisp / Flareblitz
move 4: Roost
ability: Gale Wings
item: Leftovers
evs: 176 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def / 76 Spe
nature: Adamant
Stall breaker Talonflame is certainly nothing new, but definitely is an underrated threat present in our current meta. In fact, I believe the set was discredited (here) as not being a strong role for Talonflame to fill (read the other options segment).
The EVs that this set runs is actually quite specific - mainly speed, but the bulk gives it great longevity. 176 EVs in HP give an odd number so you can (if needed) switch in to Stealth Rocks up to three times, if you don't have a chance to Roost. It also provides quite a lot of bulk for Talonflame, which I will get into a bit later. Max attack is simple, maximum hurt, it helps wear down its switch-ins, as well as, revenge killing threats and providing your team another end game sweeper. 76 Speed out speeds maximum base 90s and is more than enough to out run and taunt most things on stall.
Most players on the ladder don't expect a Talonflame to be running taunt, and that is a huge boon. The combination of taunt and it's speed let it outrun max speed Deoxys-D and get off the taunt before it can even set up. Almost everything on stall gets outrun and taunted, really, all Talon has to look out for on the common "cookie cutter" stall team as of late is a Shadow Ball from Aegislash, and Scald from Quagsire - Aegislash naturally fears Talonflame, and Quagsire is either getting burnt or taunted on the switch in.
The set obviously needs some form of team support, quad Stealth Rocks weakness is huge and often getting off a defog or rapid spin is crucial. One of the biggest issues of running defog is DeoSharp cores. Usually you wouldn't see Talonflame switching into +2 Bisharp, but at full health, Talon can burn Bisharp and has a great chance at surviving +2 (Burnt) Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off.
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb burned Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 176 HP / 4 Def Talonflame: 289-341 (84.7 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
Flareblitz is slashed with Will-o-wisp as it has the added utility of hurting Talonflame's switch-ins, such as Zapdos, Thundurus-I & Thundurus-T. Will-o-Wisp is preferred as it smacks around larger threats, looking at Tyranitar, Hippowdon, Landorus-T etc.
I could go on about the merits of this set but, I will let it speak for itself. Have a look at the following replays that I have stored away using this set.
I'm looking forward to hearing what others have to say about this set. Has anyone else been running a set similar to this? Sorry if I've exposed a secret set that anyone has been using, but I recently started using this form of Talonflame and felt that people should start hearing about it.
In higher level play the utility of the taunt set is much more appealing, as it not only can stick around much longer but can disrupt stall and bulky offence teams - it's tough to counter and takes advantage of it's usual switch ins. 252 + Brave Bird still hurts and can function as a late game cleaner once the opponents team has been worn down significantly.
I am so far unable to use taunt properly - every single damn thing that comes in threatens to take it out using brute force, namely rotom fucking wash.
Teammates such as Excadrill and Latias, help this set greatly, Excadrill can KO Rotom with STAB Mold Breaker Earthquake, and Latias can switch in to anything Rotom-W can throw at it, dealing heavy damage in return with Draco Meteor. Excadrill and Latias both provide hazard control support that Talonflame absolutely loves.
What's funny is that at the start of this gen everyone feared/expected SD Talonflame while now everyone expects CB.
I personally think BU Talonflame is criminally underused, it's such an effective set as it gets to set up on a lot of it's common checks/counters.
I run Jolly to outspeed other Talonflame ... I feel bad :(
Not much good when you outspeed the other Talonflame, take some recoil, then get KO'd back because the other one is adamant.
Really there isn't a viable reason to run Jolly Talonflame.
You outspeed Thundy-I with Flare Blitz but that's about the extent of its usefulness.
That reason is borked by the fact that Talonflanme kinda needs the power and not the speed as its Attack stat is still very weak. Running Jolly for the sake of 1 valid target is a waste when the power can be used against a wider range of threats.
Well, you can kill the other Talonflame
252 Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 48 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 283-334 (91.5 - 108%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 312-367 (104.6 - 123.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
It's a push and more often than not ends up with both Talonflames dying. It is good to revenge kill Talonflame but if you're using Talonflame to revenge kill Talonflame it ain't great.
What can Adamant kill and not Jolly ?
What it can and can't KO isn't really irrelevant; the fact is, 90% of the time with CBTalonflame you're either clicking Brave Bird or U-Turn, and because of this, you don't really need speed. For example, it turns a half chance OHKO on Starmie into a guaranteed OHKO, it turns a guaranteed 3hko on Mega Scizor into a 62.1% chance to 2HKO which is really helpful so Scizor can't Roost off the damage.
These are just a couple but with Talonflame's weak-ass attack stat you NEED Adamant.
Okay, but consider this scenario. Your opponent has managed to take out one of your Pokemon using Mega Banette, playing mind games with its Prankster Destiny Bond. But Gale Wings Talonflame, provided it has an Adamant Nature and maximum investment in Attack, is the perfect way to revenge kill Mega Banette. With Gale Wings, Talonflame's Brave Bird would have the same +1 priority as Mega Banette's Destiny Bond. And considering how much higher Talonflame's speed is, Mega Banette wouldn't have time to set up a Destiny Bond before it gets taken out by a priority Brave Bird.
The only exception to this scenario is Trick Room. But that would be fairly difficult, considering that Trick Room, even with Prankster, has a priority of -6, and the turn it would take to set it up would be a turn where the threat of a priority Destiny Bond couldn't be used on you. So unless Trick Room has been set up before you sent Talonflame out, it's not really much of a threat.
Considering how pitiful Mega Banette's Defense is, provided it doesn't have maximum investment in HP and Defense, it's either going to get hit with an OHKO from a Brave Bird, especially if it's a CB Talonflame (STAB + Choice Band = BP of 240), or at the very least, be weakened enough for a 2HKO to be possible.
They both are at the +1 priority bracket, so at that point it's all based on individual speed. So Furfrou will not be able to Baby-Doll the opposing Talonflame, for example.
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