1. Welcome to Smogon! Check out the Smogon Starters Hangout for everything you need to know about starting out in the community. Don't forget to introduce yourself in the Introduction and Hangout Thread, too!
  2. Welcome to Smogon Forums! Please take a minute to read the rules.

The Defense of the Titans Project

Discussion in 'BW OU' started by alexwolf, Nov 3, 2012.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. X5Dragon

    X5Dragon

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2011
    Messages:
    2,040
    I think positive speed natures and full speed investments were allowed so stuff like fat Timid Starmies can exist. In any case I must declare the my laddering in this project is over, sadly I wasn't made for defense although I thoroughly enjoyed leading with double status + giga drain and hp Ice def Amoonguss. Not only is it a great lead, but combined with its good resistances and ability, he definitely shouldn't be NU.
  2. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2009
    Messages:
    7,120
    Yeah positive Speed natures and max Speed investement were allowed because of Bulky Starmie and standard Latias.

    X5Dragon it's a shame to see you forfeiting, but at least you tried. I guess offense is simply your style :D
  3. GatoDelFuego

    GatoDelFuego No matter if it seems so hard, friends are near
    is a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributor

    Joined:
    May 29, 2011
    Messages:
    3,036
    If these loopholes exist, why not try to put in Antar's stall metric? You could set a limit on the stalliness of a team, though there could be some problems with coding and such. It has a couple bugs, last I remembered...

    Anyway, when people talk about things walling things, it's often in a complete vacuum. For example, countering volcarona comes down to getting stealth rock up. The problem is, volcarona can just switch in while I set up stealth rock, and then continue to dominate me. Or rapid spinning versus an offensive team: often the only way possible is to sacrifice the rapid spinner. But, then the offensive team just gets their hazard setter right back out and you're screwed again. It's very hard to keep everything at maximum HP to counter everything, and without regenerator you can get beaten up very easily. I think regenerator stall is possibly the only way to go right now.
  4. Shammas

    Shammas

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2011
    Messages:
    16
    I feel like I my have to withdraw from this challenge, I just suck at stall, haha. I've peaked top 100 with a couple different offensive teams on PO and I tried for a few hours testing different stuff last night but couldn't even break top 5,000. I love stall and it's my favorite playstyle, it just doesn't love me back. :P
  5. GatoDelFuego

    GatoDelFuego No matter if it seems so hard, friends are near
    is a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributor

    Joined:
    May 29, 2011
    Messages:
    3,036
    Gah. A frustrating day was just made worse after 2 hours of laddering to total hax and counter teams. I'll be giving up with the current team if it somehow can't beat a blastoise. I'll probably make something with a real defensive core this time, instead of just throwing stuff to compliment rain dragonite higgledy piggledy, which I removed anyway.

    So, Kyurem-B has been officially unbanned. I think this will unfortunately mark the time where I will be retiring from pokemon until something happens. I really don't have the patience to construct a team that can deal with this many offensive pokemon. Whether it be Genesect, Tornadus, Deoxys, Politoed, Ninetales, or Kyurem again, I may just be sitting something out here. Unless I make that rock polish genesect team....

    Stall may have been possible in BW1, but BW2 gave us 7 new powerhouses, 1 uber and the other 6 wreaking havoc. Two of them (no, wait, three...no, wait, ALL OF THEM) dominate stall like Marcellus Wallace in Pulp Fiction. I'm starting to lose my hope completely that it is at all possible anymore, considering you need to run three guaranteed pokes to deal with the top three attackers, and then you count the rest of OU. Who knows, maybe people will decide to bring down Ho-Oh? Then things will get interesting. I know for sure I'm going to be watching this next era of battling very carefully, but I'm not sticking myself into this metagame. Oh well. At least stall is rewarding to play. I'll be hanging around this thread and helping people with stall teams, because that's actually fun and I feel like I'm part of some cool stall club here. Yeah, the stall club. I like it.


    Also first person to beat Defense of Titans and Dark Horse at the same time. I must be some kind of pro.
  6. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2009
    Messages:
    7,120
    I don't believe that a stall team needs luck in order to get high at the ladder. In fact with my stall team, i managed to wall most of the teams i faced, which would have led to a slow victory, IF hax didn't show up its ugly face. It is so frustrating to see all your hard work of 40+ turns go to waste, but that's stall i guess. I have a score of 16-4-1 right now, and two of the battles were lost solely because of hax. But the percentages of getting haxed are supposed to be the same no matter how much you play, so i hope that my luck will become better in a few days...

    Also it is funny but all the threats that you mentioned, Volcarona, Scizor, Landorus, and Mamo are countered by RestTalk Gyara. And no i don't think that the definition of a counter has dissapeared, as my team is based around countering stuff, and it does it well until a crit happens, it just has loosened up a bit. For example i consider my physically defensive Gliscor as a counter to Terrakion, even though it has 6% chance to 2HKO with CB Stone Edge after SR, and Gliscor can't OHKO Terrakion if it hasn't lost 25% of it's life.

    The stall type i like the most right now is Volt-Turn stall with Scarf Gothitelle. I have three Volt-turners, Celebi, Forretress, and Gliscor, which all pivot around each other, alowing me for easy hazards and luring targets that i need Gothitelle to eliminate. This type of stall is something like offensive stall, if that term is right, because the goal is to quickly get hazards, and then shuffle the opposing team with my Volt-truners, while trapping problematic Pokemon with Goth.

    EDIT: So Kyurem-B is unbanned... Well these are certainly bad news, but stall definitely has some ways of dealing with it. The best all around counter i can see is physically defensive Jirachi, which i expect to become much more popular for this reason. The only way that Kyurem-B can 2HKO it is with Earth Power, which is not that common. Ferrothorn in rain is also one of the best answers to Kyurem-B, and is only annoyed by Sub as it can break the Sub, and not worry about getting PP stalled due to lack of Pressure. Gyro Ball Forretress works too, but it won't be able to take many hits, so i am expecting Pain Split to start seeing more usage. Gyro Ball / Rapid Spin / Spikes / Pain Split the new standard for stall teams maybe?
  7. GatoDelFuego

    GatoDelFuego No matter if it seems so hard, friends are near
    is a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributor

    Joined:
    May 29, 2011
    Messages:
    3,036
    Offensive stall is a pretty exotic sounding thing, kinda like quickstall but with volt-turn. Also whenever I put Gyrardos on my team the opponent just shows up with six Thunduruses and when I take it off Mamoswine sweeps me. Welcome to my world...you see what I mean, stall needs luck?

    Also I find it kind of interesting that most people who post regularly in this thread voted to keep Kyurem-B banned. Just an interesting observation
  8. StairFall

    StairFall

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2012
    Messages:
    257
    Quick stall I understand even if it's ill defined and quickly labelled a gimmick, but offensive stall simply seems like an oxymoron to me. What exactly is the goal of it? If you're attacking it isn't stall and if you're defending you aren't offensive, sorry that I'm ignorant to this but could this be elaborated on? The closest thing I can think of is water pulse/thunder/iron head/ sub jirachi, attacking and using insane hax to defend itself. If it really is just stall with volt-turn couldn't a more indicative name be used than offensive stall?

    Also I here you on the luck thing, you can't wall every single thing so there are a few times when the match is decided before you even begin. Oh you counter all but one pokemon? A team based entirely around that as their main sweeper just rolled up on the ladder. Of course it's likely the pokemon you can't counter will be more than one.
  9. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2009
    Messages:
    7,120
    Yeah StairFall, in case i wasn't clear, i really have no idea if the term offensive stall exists. I would call it quick stall, but quick stall usually lacks true walls, and is based around getting certain pokemon in by abusing immunities, making risky plays, etc. My team has none of that, as i usually don't have to make any risky play, and all my Pokemon are good standalone walls, except from Gothitelle obviously. So if someone can find a better term for it, then by all means do.

    Oh and Gato it seems you are just so damn unlucky, i totally feel you ;D

    @Tizio Potente Ao

    A hail team in the HoF? Hell yeah! Congrats for your peak and keep it up. I have to ask why Scarf Abomasnow though? You can't even outspeed fast offensive Pokemon such as Alakazam, Tornadus-T and Weavile, and Aboma is not strong either. I think a Choice Band set or a standard physical attacking Leech Seed + Protect Aboma would be better, but i could be wrong. Just something to consider...

    @Princess Bri

    From your answers one thing caught my attention. How good of a wall Cresselia is under sun. I mean if it wasn't for other weathers, Cresselia could actually be OU, as it is a perfect counter to so many offensive behemoths, such as Salamence, Dragonite, Mamoswine, and Terrakion. So it seems that stall has two real reasons to use sun: Sableye, an unbeatable spinblocker under sun, and Cresselia an unkillable wall under sun.
  10. Tizio Potente Ao

    Tizio Potente Ao

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2011
    Messages:
    49
    I prefer scarf abomasnow because i can outspeed and kill rotom-w, thundurus-t and bulky starmie and the mvp of this team is probably aboma.
  11. StairFall

    StairFall

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2012
    Messages:
    257
    I here you Alex about quick stall though it isn't true it has no true walls. I'm stillworking on a sun stall team with eviolite sub seed Cottonee and it has both Bronzong and bulky Ninetales (though that could hardly be considered a wall). Cottonee, my only real quick staller is more like the stall equivalent of a late game sweeper, you remove his counters and then he can go to town on the other team. He isn't prevalent in the match and he's the only one who fits the term quick stall. In fact thinking about it quick stall is sort of like sweeping with no attacking moves, that probably doesn't make any sense though. I'm also thinking about trying out sigilyph with psycho shift as my burn inducer because missing is crap.
  12. Neliel

    Neliel Sacred Sword

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2012
    Messages:
    559
    You got the point myzozoa.
    yesterday i was trying to build something like a bulky offense team with Max hp/ Max def or Sp def pokemon plus a fast cleaner like Scarf Terrakion, it had nothing to do with stall at all but its still viable.
  13. Tizio Potente Ao

    Tizio Potente Ao

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2011
    Messages:
    49
    [​IMG]

    I think i got silver.

    Yesterday i fixed my team, and this is the result.

    Show Hide
    Gliscor @ Toxic Orb
    Trait: Poison Heal
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Spd / 4 Def
    Jolly Nature
    - Ice Fang
    - Protect
    - Earthquake
    - Substitute

    Abomasnow @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Snow Warning
    EVs: 252 Spd / 252 Atk / 4 SAtk
    Naive Nature
    - Ice Shard
    - Wood Hammer
    - Earthquake
    - Blizzard

    Blissey (F) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Natural Cure
    EVs: 118 SDef / 196 Def / 192 Spd
    Bold Nature
    - Stealth Rock
    - Seismic Toss
    - Softboiled
    - Toxic

    Gastrodon @ Leftovers
    Trait: Storm Drain
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SDef
    Serious Nature
    - Recover
    - Scald
    - Ice Beam
    - Earthquake

    Skarmory @ Leftovers
    Trait: Sturdy
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SDef
    Impish Nature
    - Spikes
    - Roost
    - Brave Bird
    - Whirlwind

    Tentacruel @ Leftovers
    Trait: Rain Dish
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SDef
    Bold Nature
    - Scald
    - Protect
    - Rapid Spin
    - Toxic Spikes
  14. nooblikeaboon

    nooblikeaboon

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2011
    Messages:
    27
    Nice Team tizio potente ao, but i would suggest some minor changes that could help you a lot.

    You should try giving Gliscor more Defense-EV's because running max speed on a defensive Mon without Taunt/Toxic is kinda pointless imo. Running more defense allows you also to counter all Terrakions out there. Oh yeah using Aerial Ace over Substitute helps you vs. Breloom btw. New spread: 252 HP/80 Def/176 Spe; Impish.

    I would also change Abomasnow to a Choice Bander - thus allowing you to revenge mons with a strong Iceshard (and you can run some HP-EV's too then). Most fast Mons have either a weakness to Iceshard (Genies, Dragons) or cant hurt Aboma much (Starmie). Though Scarfaboma certainly is nice vs. Keldeo but doesnt help you much vs. Specskeldeo which still poses a big problem.

    You should also consider ditching the useless Speed-EV's on Blissey and just run 252 Def/252 SDef so Blissey can actually stomach special hits.
    Or just use SdefWishRachi instead and give Gastrodon some SDef-EV's and Toxic.
  15. Reymedy

    Reymedy The Black Sun.
    is a Tutoris an official Team Rateris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2012
    Messages:
    1,665
    Yo!

    It's really an interesting project, I didn't have time to play alot, but I'm at 1600 for now trying different teams (I met alot of other stalls team.. seriously I just wanted to kill myself here).
    However it's tough, hard to wall things now (how god and now Kyurem-B enters the show) and as you said, as the game lasts, the chances for your atacking opponent to benefit from luck effects are getting higher (yes, not at a given time, but you see what I mean).

    And the only "good" ideas I found and I enjoyed to play were the bulky threats. Things like Volcarona and Zapdos for instance.
    Now I'll try to build a team around boosting stallers to turn them into threats, a Calm Mind Blissey (I thought about this playing ADV as it's an insane build back in this generation that took alot of time to be considered at its real potential) and a Curse Quagsire.. let's see x)
  16. cmurph

    cmurph

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2009
    Messages:
    206
    Well this is great timing. Due to commuting difficulties cause by Hurricane Sandy I will be "working" from home today, which should give me ample time to partake in this challenge. I started laddering yesterday using a rain stall team. I have a record of 15-1 and a GLICKO2 of 1964 +/- 100. I had one loss early on to a weak opponent which has resulted in a somewhat weak ACRE of 1824 despite my strong win/loss record. Hopefully I'll make the top 100 later today.

    I am currently having the most trouble with Gengar, especially when it is used as a spinblocker (I'm using Donphan as a spinner and Gengar walls him to hell and back). Besides Gengar I'd say that Terrakion and powerful dragons are the most annoying. My one loss was due to a CB Dragonite that really just decimated my team. We'll see how Kyurem-B changes things. I may have to change up my team to accommodate this new destructive presence.

    For the record, I have found Kyurem to be a solid special wall. He can easily take on common annoyances like Genesect and Rotom-W and can even beat things like Ttar or the dastardly Terrakion when Toxic Spikes are down. Here is the set I am using:

    Kyurem @ leftovers
    Calm; 252 HP, 252 Spd, 4 SpD
    Ice Beam
    Earth Power
    Roost
    Substitute

    Edit: Oh yeah, just remembered the other top threat besides Gengar, Volcarona! Volcarona is easy to deal with if I can get Stealth Rock and Toxic Spikes up before it comes in. Unfortunately, Volcarona is frequently seen on sun teams where it is typically paired with Venusaur. Without Toxic Spikes I struggle mightily to defeat it, even with the 50% damage it takes from stealth rocks.
  17. Tizio Potente Ao

    Tizio Potente Ao

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2011
    Messages:
    49
    ty nooblikeaboon :)

    I'm using Scarf Abomasnow for CBKion too.. gliscor is 2hkoed or 3hkoed by sedge and skarmory can't damage him.
    That spread on gliscor is because i want to outspeed jolly luke and i can speed tie with others 95 speed base so i think it's good. Sub Protect is because my team is 6-0ed by cmind reuniclus and gliscor can win 1vs1,
    That spread on blissey is because i want to outspeed and toxic jellicent before his taunt.
  18. Dark Nikuman

    Dark Nikuman

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2011
    Messages:
    116
    I forgot the pass, I'll start on Stallin' hard, now I've 0 points on it.
  19. Meru

    Meru
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2005
    Messages:
    1,071
    Since people on the ladder kept pushing me to do this challenge...

    Pokemon Showdown! Username: Ninety
    DT team: Hippowdon/Latias/Roserade/Skarmory/Stoutland/Jellicent
    Screenshot of Top 100 Ladder Ranking: [​IMG][​IMG]
    DT team Complete Sets:

    Hippowdon (F) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Sand Stream
    Shiny: Yes
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SDef
    Careful Nature
    - Slack Off
    - Earthquake
    - Stealth Rock
    - Whirlwind

    Latias (F) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk / 30 SAtk / 30 Spd
    - Roost
    - Dragon Pulse
    - Calm Mind
    - Hidden Power [Fire]

    Skarmory (F) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Sturdy
    Shiny: Yes
    EVs: 252 HP / 240 Def / 16 Spd
    Impish Nature
    - Spikes
    - Roost
    - Whirlwind
    - Brave Bird

    Roserade (F) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Natural Cure
    Shiny: Yes
    EVs: 252 HP / 104 Spd / 136 Def / 16 SDef
    Calm Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk / 30 SAtk / 30 Spd
    - Sleep Powder
    - Toxic Spikes
    - Giga Drain
    - Hidden Power [Fire]

    Stoutland (F) @ Choice Band
    Trait: Sand Rush
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spd
    Adamant Nature
    - Return
    - Superpower
    - Pursuit
    - Wild Charge

    Jellicent (F) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Water Absorb
    Shiny: Yes
    EVs: 248 HP / 108 Def / 152 Spd
    Bold Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Recover
    - Scald
    - Shadow Ball
    - Taunt
  20. Neliel

    Neliel Sacred Sword

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2012
    Messages:
    559
    you had that rank before the start of the challenge..
  21. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2009
    Messages:
    7,120
    Tizio Potente Ao

    Well done for reaching Silver class! I was just going to ask you why so much speed on Gliscor and Blissey, but you already answered this. Very creative ideas on your team btw, especially Scarf Aboma and speedy Blissey.

    But i still have some questions... Are you satisfied with Toxic Spikes on Tentacruel? I have found Toxic Spikes not really effective in this metagame, because of all the Rapid Spinners, Magic Bouncers, and Tentacruel running rampant. The fact that you need two turns to make them really effective is very annoying too.

    Finally i don't get how SubProtect Gliscor deals with CM Reuniclus. All Reuniclus has to do is set up with CM and then keep wasting pps on CM. He can then pp stall you as he has more pps than you do, and eventually sweep you.

    Meru

    You have to start with a new account for the project, so unfortunately i can't accept your peak... But feel free to ladder with a new account, as by what you showed us, it won't be very difficult for you to get into HoF.
  22. Tizio Potente Ao

    Tizio Potente Ao

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2011
    Messages:
    49
    I like tspikes because i can toxic starmie every time he is switched in to spin.
    Sometimes they're better than toxic.
  23. Meru

    Meru
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2005
    Messages:
    1,071
    Making a new account named Eighty then.
  24. Mr roke

    Mr roke

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2012
    Messages:
    1
    hi. I am really interested in defensive teams so i just build up one and gonna try the ladders. I am pretty new to smogon ladders and competitive gameplay itself (and this is my first forum post after some reading <both guest and logged> ) think it is time to start "contributing" to the community.
    I am playing with :

    SKARMORY @ Leftovers / ability: sturdy impish nature
    EVs : 252 hp / 252 def / 4 spd
    brave bird/ roost/ spikes / whirlwind

    Quagsire @ leftovers / ability : damp lax nature
    Evs 252hp /252 def / 4 SpAtk
    earth power / recovery / scald / toxic

    Reuniclus @ leftovers ability: regenerator calm nature
    Evs 252 hp/ 252 SpcDef/ 4 spe
    recover / psychic / protect / shadow ball

    Chansey @ leftovers ability : natural cure bold nature
    Evs 252 hp / 252 def /4 spc.atk
    Thunder / aromatherapy/ sofboiled / seismic toss

    Vaporeon @ damp rock ability: hydration bold nature
    Evs 252 hp / 252 def / 4 spA
    Rain Dance / Rest / Scald / Toxic

    Haxorus @choice band ability: unnerve mild nature
    EVs 4 hp / 252 spA / 252 spe
    Earthquake / outrage / Dragon claw / Superpower

    The focus of the team is to wreck all rain dancers around with hydration vaporeon trying to put a toxic going to a switch in to chansey going for a thunder. Skarmory sets spikes and whirlwind gives advantage against unwanted enemies in the early game. Reuniclus has proved his value several times for me being able to hold some good attacks. Protect + recover is a great move set for him. I am considering using steel cannon with it but still not sure (instead of shadow ball for the surprise factor).

    Haxorus was picked as the attacker because of his tremendous attacking habilities and a movepool with both superpower and outrage combined with a choice band and his mold breaker hability goes for good hits.

    mostly this is what i'll try for now.

    (btw my name in PS while using stall teams will be mrroke )
  25. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2009
    Messages:
    7,120
    Posting this here, because people all over this page seem to ignore it:

    Whoever wants to register in this project, please use the registration form posted above. Same goes for anyone that is already part of this project and wants to create another account.

    So Dark Nikuman, Meru, and Mr roke use the appropriate registration form if you want to participate.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)