That's very true. However, I believe (and correct me if I am wrong) that RevolutionZ did not feel the need to include those definitions because Salamence is certainly not on the suspect list because of its defensive or supportive capabilities.
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The First Smogon Council - Salamence
- Thread starter Aeolus
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Actually, I have seen a good number of posts arguing his supportive characteristics.
But I was just explaining that there were other ways a Pokemon could be classified as uber besides being offensive, as I believe RevolutionZ thought that the offensive definition was the only definition.
I agree with lordkira that the only way that the pro-uber camp can win this is by using the support characteristic. Frankly, not even DDMence can sweep through a significant portion of the team on a constant basis. The reason why I'm against the ban is that the only thing going for Salamence is raw power. He doesn't have the precision that some other wall breakers in OU have.
The reason we ban a pokemon is that it has a negative affect on the metagame. So I propose we discuss match ups with Salamence going against a team type. The team types I'll be using are Hyper Offensive, Bulky Offensive, and Heavy Stall since these are the most prominant strategies.
Hyper offensive teams should have no problem with just about any variant of Mence besides the rarely used BulkyMence since our blue dragon just won't live long enough to do any lasting damage to a HO team which oftens throws away pokemon to get kills anyways. It also doesn't help that SD Scizor, Agiligross, and Tyranitar are in these teams often as well.
A good portion of pokemon in a bulky offensive team can threaten Sally without getting OHKOed in the process. These teams also feature one or two revenge killers to take care of it as well.
I'm not all that familiar with stall since I don't play it all that much in OU - or any metagame for that matter. I'll admit that pure Stall can be fucked up by new MixMence, but modern stall teams usually take it down with the help of indirect damaging and priority/revenge killing. In fact, a Salamence with leftovers and Roost in its moveset is the only set that can threaten modern stall teams.
The reason we ban a pokemon is that it has a negative affect on the metagame. So I propose we discuss match ups with Salamence going against a team type. The team types I'll be using are Hyper Offensive, Bulky Offensive, and Heavy Stall since these are the most prominant strategies.
Hyper offensive teams should have no problem with just about any variant of Mence besides the rarely used BulkyMence since our blue dragon just won't live long enough to do any lasting damage to a HO team which oftens throws away pokemon to get kills anyways. It also doesn't help that SD Scizor, Agiligross, and Tyranitar are in these teams often as well.
A good portion of pokemon in a bulky offensive team can threaten Sally without getting OHKOed in the process. These teams also feature one or two revenge killers to take care of it as well.
I'm not all that familiar with stall since I don't play it all that much in OU - or any metagame for that matter. I'll admit that pure Stall can be fucked up by new MixMence, but modern stall teams usually take it down with the help of indirect damaging and priority/revenge killing. In fact, a Salamence with leftovers and Roost in its moveset is the only set that can threaten modern stall teams.
I have an idea to put on the table, but I don't know what it's worth, since I'm still rather on the fence.
It's been said several times that (assuming MixMence), while he can punch holes in an opponent's team with decent prediction (I find that this is absolutely the truth; when wielded properly, a Salamence is definitely able to significantly weaken an opponent's Pokémon, regardless of whether or not he actually faints them), Salamence is easily revenged, granting him a (perhaps high) maximum of 2 KO's. Now, first of all, I think that we may agree that we will not be seeing Salamence on a great many stall teams. But we may go further to say that, unlike a stall team, each and every one of whose members is integral to the success of the whole, a team utilizing Salamence's power may still function well if Salamence is removed; this is the big leap, the one that I'm slightly unsure about, though it seems plausible. Thus, the opposing team, if it is a team which has a delicate mesh of its party members, like a stall team and unlike a heavy offense team, if you know what I mean, has lost a great deal more than the "Salamence team" has in this ostensibly one-for-one tradeoff.
This may perhaps be the cause for the apparent sharp rise in stall teams on the Suspect ladder; they no longer have this force threatening to remove one of the fundamental links to their stall chain.
Maybe you could look at it as a spiderweb, in that as a whole it is remarkably strong, but if one of the supporting strands is removed (by Salamence Draco Meteoring a cobweb (boom)), then the whole thing may fall apart more easily. (Don't pay too much attention to this analogy, I can already see that it's pretty flawed.)
I don't know the validity of this statement, but I think that it definitely has enough merit at least to be considered.
It's been said several times that (assuming MixMence), while he can punch holes in an opponent's team with decent prediction (I find that this is absolutely the truth; when wielded properly, a Salamence is definitely able to significantly weaken an opponent's Pokémon, regardless of whether or not he actually faints them), Salamence is easily revenged, granting him a (perhaps high) maximum of 2 KO's. Now, first of all, I think that we may agree that we will not be seeing Salamence on a great many stall teams. But we may go further to say that, unlike a stall team, each and every one of whose members is integral to the success of the whole, a team utilizing Salamence's power may still function well if Salamence is removed; this is the big leap, the one that I'm slightly unsure about, though it seems plausible. Thus, the opposing team, if it is a team which has a delicate mesh of its party members, like a stall team and unlike a heavy offense team, if you know what I mean, has lost a great deal more than the "Salamence team" has in this ostensibly one-for-one tradeoff.
This may perhaps be the cause for the apparent sharp rise in stall teams on the Suspect ladder; they no longer have this force threatening to remove one of the fundamental links to their stall chain.
Maybe you could look at it as a spiderweb, in that as a whole it is remarkably strong, but if one of the supporting strands is removed (by Salamence Draco Meteoring a cobweb (boom)), then the whole thing may fall apart more easily. (Don't pay too much attention to this analogy, I can already see that it's pretty flawed.)
I don't know the validity of this statement, but I think that it definitely has enough merit at least to be considered.
Mence's performance in Ubers has nothing to do with whether or not it gets banned from OU.
I completely agree with jojo, Salamence will become the 2nd ugly step child in ubers, falling behind only Garchomp.
I really, really don't understand why there is this huge debate over the validity of Salamence in OU. He is killed every time by a bulky water type (Milotic, Vaporeon, etc.). The only way he takes out a bulky water is if you let it get a few Dragon Dances, which shouldn't happen in the first place.
I really, really don't understand why there is this huge debate over the validity of Salamence in OU. He is killed every time by a bulky water type (Milotic, Vaporeon, etc.). The only way he takes out a bulky water is if you let it get a few Dragon Dances, which shouldn't happen in the first place.
Get your facts right man, Garchomp is a monster in Ubers; he was used more than Lugia, Deoxys-A, Ho-oh, Skymin, Giratina-A and Mew in May.
And Salamence+Rayquaza proves to be quite the killer combo in Ubers.
You need to control your emotions before you post here saying "Salamence is uber because I can't beat it," without backing your argument with up with anything other than how hard it is for you to accurately predict your opponent's next move.
The difference between Garchomp and Salamence is that the only arguments presented here are "no one set is particularly devastating, but being unable to find out which set it is is hard" and "if Salamence is paired up with (insert pokemon here) he's too strong for me." I've stated several times that the former is a flawed argument that originates from the player's own inability, rather than Salamence's own brokenness. The second argument is just as faulty as you can say the same about any pokemon that has great synergy with other pokemon to cover its weaknesses (i.e., Celebi or Heatran should be banned because they are "too strong" with each other). Not only that, but this ties into the flaw of the first argument as well. For example, when one has brought in Scizor to counter Salamence, one can simply predict the switch into something like Magnezone and use the appropriate move. This is how the metagame has been since the days of R/B/Y.
Though I don't think Garchomp should be uber, there were definitely a lot more arguments in favor of him being uber than Salamence. Sandstorm being on 25% of teams means that it will be in 50% of matches (2 teams) and thus Garchomp is able to get "hax" from Sand Veil right away. His unique speed EVs, as well as his inability to be brought down by residual damage (much unlike Salamence) thanks to his great typing and ability to substitute before his opponent could toxic him made him an absolute beast. There's a reason one was ruled uber and one is currently OU. Salamence's Dragon/Flying typing does not come close to giving him excellent resists the same way Garchomp received his (stealth rock and sandstream pretty much guarantee Salamence is going down one way or another, even with roost).
I just fail to see how a pokemon having more than one viable set to use in OU is a legitimate argument to put him in ubers.
Edit: Also, don't get me started on Latias.
The difference between Garchomp and Salamence is that the only arguments presented here are "no one set is particularly devastating, but being unable to find out which set it is is hard" and "if Salamence is paired up with (insert pokemon here) he's too strong for me." I've stated several times that the former is a flawed argument that originates from the player's own inability, rather than Salamence's own brokenness. The second argument is just as faulty as you can say the same about any pokemon that has great synergy with other pokemon to cover its weaknesses (i.e., Celebi or Heatran should be banned because they are "too strong" with each other). Not only that, but this ties into the flaw of the first argument as well. For example, when one has brought in Scizor to counter Salamence, one can simply predict the switch into something like Magnezone and use the appropriate move. This is how the metagame has been since the days of R/B/Y.
Though I don't think Garchomp should be uber, there were definitely a lot more arguments in favor of him being uber than Salamence. Sandstorm being on 25% of teams means that it will be in 50% of matches (2 teams) and thus Garchomp is able to get "hax" from Sand Veil right away. His unique speed EVs, as well as his inability to be brought down by residual damage (much unlike Salamence) thanks to his great typing and ability to substitute before his opponent could toxic him made him an absolute beast. There's a reason one was ruled uber and one is currently OU. Salamence's Dragon/Flying typing does not come close to giving him excellent resists the same way Garchomp received his (stealth rock and sandstream pretty much guarantee Salamence is going down one way or another, even with roost).
I just fail to see how a pokemon having more than one viable set to use in OU is a legitimate argument to put him in ubers.
Edit: Also, don't get me started on Latias.
I can't be the only one who thinks this thread is becoming more and more pointless with time. The same arguments are being made, the same retorts, the same circles that have been going around for the last 36ish pages. Every two posts there is something about Salamence not being Uber because it's revenge killed. Every three posts something that disagrees with that. Every four posts something that disagrees with that and so on!
Where is all the suspect talk? Why is everyone discussing how Salamence does in OU and no one is even caring about discussing Suspect (besides people saying "Stall is everywhere!" [which it isn't], "Fire, Water, Grass cores ftw!", or "Because Salamence is gone every Grass type and it's mother can now come in freely and take OU by storm!" [because it had nothing to do with Latias])? I don't see a point in talking about whether Salamence is OU or not when it's just the same arguments being spit out by both sides over and over, and I don't see a point in every couple posts saying "Dragonite for Uber too if Salamence goes / slippery slope ftl!" when everyone responds the same way. If you'd like to see all this and how it turned out a few months ago, I will gladly redirect you to this thread. (Although, I hate knowing that I took part in that fueled on by the desire to argue.) I will quote RBG:
Now I'm going to post about my Suspect Experience and hopefully there will be more discussion about how Salamence's removal is helping / hurting the metagame. (And hopefully some people will realize Salamence being removed didn't cause all the changes since the Suspect meta is also evolving from the Latias ban.) Anyway, I haven't seen a lot of the stall that most people are talking about (I'm ~ 1420 on the ladder last time I checked), nor have I seen as many Infernape as their seem to be. I've seen a lot of Bulky Gyarados (as opposed to the Offensive I saw mostly on Standard) and I guess that's thanks to the power drop in Standard recently. Other than that, semi-stall / bulky offense has been most of what I'm seeing (am I disagreeing with most other people by saying this?) and it's working better than it did in Standard as far as I can tell (or I'm not playing well against it haha).
I'm not sure why Scizor is going down in usage; it's still usable as a great scouter and I really didn't expect the drop it took. As for Heatran, I will attribute that one to Latias being gone. Scarf Heatran could 2HKO Salamence if my memory serves correctly, so I'm doubting that it mattered quite as much, haha. Wouldn't hurt to touch on Flygon, either. I've seen quite a few Toxic Flygons (I don't know the set name) and they are playing excellently. I had to revise my team after a while just to deal with them (as my team really didn't prepare for it too well). Overall, I prefer a Salamence-less metagame to the current one, mostly because I just see a lot more variety in the Pokemon and the teams. I don't know if it's just experiment or if losing Salamence and Latias really does this, but I like it.
Where is all the suspect talk? Why is everyone discussing how Salamence does in OU and no one is even caring about discussing Suspect (besides people saying "Stall is everywhere!" [which it isn't], "Fire, Water, Grass cores ftw!", or "Because Salamence is gone every Grass type and it's mother can now come in freely and take OU by storm!" [because it had nothing to do with Latias])? I don't see a point in talking about whether Salamence is OU or not when it's just the same arguments being spit out by both sides over and over, and I don't see a point in every couple posts saying "Dragonite for Uber too if Salamence goes / slippery slope ftl!" when everyone responds the same way. If you'd like to see all this and how it turned out a few months ago, I will gladly redirect you to this thread. (Although, I hate knowing that I took part in that fueled on by the desire to argue.) I will quote RBG:
RBG on Salamence Arguments said:
Now I'm going to post about my Suspect Experience and hopefully there will be more discussion about how Salamence's removal is helping / hurting the metagame. (And hopefully some people will realize Salamence being removed didn't cause all the changes since the Suspect meta is also evolving from the Latias ban.) Anyway, I haven't seen a lot of the stall that most people are talking about (I'm ~ 1420 on the ladder last time I checked), nor have I seen as many Infernape as their seem to be. I've seen a lot of Bulky Gyarados (as opposed to the Offensive I saw mostly on Standard) and I guess that's thanks to the power drop in Standard recently. Other than that, semi-stall / bulky offense has been most of what I'm seeing (am I disagreeing with most other people by saying this?) and it's working better than it did in Standard as far as I can tell (or I'm not playing well against it haha).
I'm not sure why Scizor is going down in usage; it's still usable as a great scouter and I really didn't expect the drop it took. As for Heatran, I will attribute that one to Latias being gone. Scarf Heatran could 2HKO Salamence if my memory serves correctly, so I'm doubting that it mattered quite as much, haha. Wouldn't hurt to touch on Flygon, either. I've seen quite a few Toxic Flygons (I don't know the set name) and they are playing excellently. I had to revise my team after a while just to deal with them (as my team really didn't prepare for it too well). Overall, I prefer a Salamence-less metagame to the current one, mostly because I just see a lot more variety in the Pokemon and the teams. I don't know if it's just experiment or if losing Salamence and Latias really does this, but I like it.
I'm guessing Scizor's suspect usage has to do with Latias being banned sense it was a good check to her.
I'm glad dragonite is as high as he is. I hope to god he doesn't get banned though. He'll definatally be crap in ubers because he's a so much like salamence. I know that how they do in ubers has nothing to do with the desision to ban I'm just saying it'll probably never be used.
Playing in suspect like I have I'm kinda surprised I haven't seen much in the form of taunt. It's a rarity that's certain.
It's interesting to note that nobodies been really taking advantage of Lucario. Pretty much in the same position. I thought there'd be a rise in lucario with salamence taken out of the picture.
I'm gonna go out on a limb here with my theorymon. Based on the current suspect tier Lanturn would probably see a boon on it. It's just theorymon but I'm looking and it's just seems right. Would anyone care to elaborate?
I'm glad dragonite is as high as he is. I hope to god he doesn't get banned though. He'll definatally be crap in ubers because he's a so much like salamence. I know that how they do in ubers has nothing to do with the desision to ban I'm just saying it'll probably never be used.
Playing in suspect like I have I'm kinda surprised I haven't seen much in the form of taunt. It's a rarity that's certain.
It's interesting to note that nobodies been really taking advantage of Lucario. Pretty much in the same position. I thought there'd be a rise in lucario with salamence taken out of the picture.
I'm gonna go out on a limb here with my theorymon. Based on the current suspect tier Lanturn would probably see a boon on it. It's just theorymon but I'm looking and it's just seems right. Would anyone care to elaborate?
You don't have a fucking clue what you're talking about.
Mewtwo can do things that no other Pokemon can do. Those unique things that Mewtwo can do are too powerful for OU, so he is banned.
Smeargle can do things that no other Pokemon can do. Those unique things that Smeargle can do are not too powerful for OU, so he is not banned.
I haven't disregarded any of the arguments made against Salamence. I have simply stated that saying "Salamence can do X, and no other Pokemon can" is not an argument for Salamence being broken if "X" itself is not broken.
Not that I hold much hope of you getting your head around basic logic this time either, since capefeather presented the argument in its clearest and most basic form and it still confused you.
For the last time, since so many people can't understand this basic idea.
A Pokemon's potential performance / usage in Ubers has absolutely NOTHING to do with whether it gets banned from OU or not. It doesn't matter whether a Pokemon is used in Ubers or not; if it is judged to be too powerful for OU, it will get banished to Ubers. Even if it isn't used on even 0.01% of teams in Uber, it will still be Uber. Ubers is a ban tier, and as such, an assessment of a Pokemon's power in Ubers does not in any way affect the decision as to whether it is too good for OU.
A Pokemon's potential performance / usage in Ubers has absolutely NOTHING to do with whether it gets banned from OU or not. It doesn't matter whether a Pokemon is used in Ubers or not; if it is judged to be too powerful for OU, it will get banished to Ubers. Even if it isn't used on even 0.01% of teams in Uber, it will still be Uber. Ubers is a ban tier, and as such, an assessment of a Pokemon's power in Ubers does not in any way affect the decision as to whether it is too good for OU.
I believe the reason that sand hax lead to the banning of Garchomp is that you yourself can have Tyranitar or Hippowdon on your team to start the sandstorm, which is 100% of the matches, thus having a very high chance of it staying in effect (Abomasnow and weather abuse is low on the usage charts).
Salamence is a threat, probably the biggest threat in OU, and that is why it is being tested.
I really enjoyed reading about how the suspect ladder is going. It is good to see some variety in use for once, but I wonder how much actual variety there is. A direct comparison of the two ladders' OU pokemon would be a godsend for discussing the issue of Salamence's power, as it will help show how centralizing it is based on its support characteristics.
Well, I'm still bored and happen to be on Smogon now so I'll try and discuss with you!
I, too, attribute some of Scizor's drop to Latias and not only Salamence, although I'm sure Salamence had something to do with it since Scizor was relied up on by many to revenge kill it with Bullet Punch. As for Taunt, I've been seeing it mostly on Gyarados and leads (who I assume are not only trying to prevent rocks, but stop the Forry / Skarm leads that are popping up). As for Lanturn, I've read through Jonathan's (I think) analysis on Sub Charge Lanturn and I think with all the Starmie / Infernape around it might actually get more use and set up! To quote his set (and take advantage of this advertising opportunity):
With that kind of power and coverage, as well as it's ability to switch in relatively often, I think that Lanturn may rise after all. Plus, Salamence and Latias are out of the picture, reducing the chances of having a poor switch-in match up. It really just depends on whether enough people see it and are persuaded to try it, I guess. I think after posting about it I might just make a team with it, haha.SubCharge Lanturn Set said:
Legacy Raider said:
reyscarface said:
Setsuna. said:
I've been seeing a lot of Breloom in Suspect lately, and I'm seeing quite a lot of Flygon as well. I've only ran into a couple Shaymin in my experience so far, but they're definitely more common than in Standard. I'll experiment a little more; with Salamence gone, I'm making new teams like mad to explore.
I am not a fan of this new metagame if it comes.
Stall is on every other team, with many using the infamous Skarmbliss core. While not as bad to beat as in ADV, I would hope the metagame has somewhat evolved since then. I know it doesn't show up in the server stats, but Skarmory usage is much higher than people think it is. I saw one I think in each of my last 8-10 battles. Blissey and Swampert both seem higher as well, leading to a slower metagame.
Stall is on every other team, with many using the infamous Skarmbliss core. While not as bad to beat as in ADV, I would hope the metagame has somewhat evolved since then. I know it doesn't show up in the server stats, but Skarmory usage is much higher than people think it is. I saw one I think in each of my last 8-10 battles. Blissey and Swampert both seem higher as well, leading to a slower metagame.
Judging from this fact, it seems that the absense of Mence has caused the metagame to slow down quite a bit compared to how fast it was when mence was availible. I'm not saying that I don't like heavy-stall but to me, I would much prefer a quicker metagame compared to a metagame that is slow as hell.
Actually skarmory and blissy are lower on the list in general. Skarmory being in 22 blissy being in 23. I won't say it's not high considering 10% use each but at least I haven't seen that combo.
Still one of the main problems for lanturn is the current #1 in suspect heatran. 86% run earth power somewhere in their set which will lead to problems. That's the bad news anyway.
Still one of the main problems for lanturn is the current #1 in suspect heatran. 86% run earth power somewhere in their set which will lead to problems. That's the bad news anyway.
I know skarmbliss are lower on the list. The data doesn't tell the whole story here because of the relatively smaller sample size.
Especially when you consider that more Heatran are running Leftovers than Choice Scarf! I'm sure though that Lanturn can still make it, and I'm determined to take it to the top!
As for those saying stall is everywhere, I'll say that I did see a lot of heavy stall during the first few days / first week. Lately, though, I have been seeing movement toward Bulky Offense; I have only seen minimal heavy stall in the last day(s) of laddering. And to the SkarmBliss stall teams, I assume those are not very common seeing that Infernape is so high in usage on the ladder.
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