The First Smogon Council - Salamence

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@Misa, Suicune/Milotic can't safely switch into a Draco Meteor then take an Outrage
Also there is no proper SpD Wall set for Milotic zZz
Bold Milotic 248 HP / 252 Def
Naive 240 SpA Draco Meteor vs Bold Milotic 248 HP / 0 SpD
Naive 16 Atk Outrage vs Bold Milotic 248 HP / 252 Def

=High chance for 2HKO, and thats not including leftovers.

Suicune 252 HP / 252 Def
Naive 240 SpA Draco Meteor vs Bold Suicune 252 HP / 0 SpD
Naive 16 Atk Outrage vs Bold Suicune 252 HP / 252 Def
Which is something like a 50/50 chance to 2HKO when you factor in Stealth Rock and one turn of Leftovers. It can't switch in on either of its STAB moves, Draco Meteor being the most likely one to be spammed first.

Choice Scarf Jirachi is defnitely NOT a counter, it can revenge kill, then again almost anything can revenge kill anything, so >.>, not to mention it takes SE from 2 of its 4 attacks.
Fair enough, but all those damage calcs that you have listed Dragonite can do it too, since both Dragonite and Mence can run outrage and draco meteor. Anyways, Choice Scarf Jirachi can come in on Mence while DDing (assuming Mence is adamant) and finish it off with Ice Punch or switch in on Mixmence's Outrages or Earthquake (Earthquake will not OHKO Jirachi on a Mixmence), and finish it off with ice punch/iron head. It's not a 100% counter, but it's a good check for Mence.

edit: Choice Scarf Heatran and Metagross can come in on an Outrage (or fire blast in Heatran's case) and can KO with HP Ice or Ice Punch. Fun fact.
 
Applying shrung's logic and backtracking a bit:

-Unban Garchomp, Latias and Salamence
-Ban all the counters that counter these three
-You now have a list of Pokemon that counter the "biggest" threats of the metagame that also have no counter. But you can't ban them, only ban their counter's counters. But these don't exist, since no counters exist to them in the first place
-Super centralisation ftw.
 
Okay, I've been battling almost nonstop *stopping only to swim, work-out, eat, sleep and do my stuff*, and Have concluded:

Salamence isn't Ubers Worthy. While having to stable counters for ALL of its sets, Weavile and mamo OHKO with ice Shard. Scarf Slaking OHKOs *and outruns* DD+1 Mence *unless everyone that I went against didn't have enough speed EVs* with Ice Punch. I've also noticed how so many things carry Ice attack now, that if given the opening, Mence is ruined.

Mence put fear into the OU metagame. I haven't seen it actually sweep anything more than a Pokemon already weakened, so I don't see the big deal of it being this Godly Sweeper it's considered. But Looking at its stats and sets, it should be good-enough.

But I don't think removing yet ANOTHER Dragon from the OU Metagame really makes sense. While we're at it, we should ban any Pokemon giving us trouble, eh? Latias was Removed for being too Overpowered, as I was told, and yet many I talked to had Little to no problem with it. Is it because they came prepared and were the exceptions? Well, let me say the same about Salamence, and any other Pokemon causing trouble:

If you didn't come prepared, you deserve getting swept.

That's All.
 
@Mista Sand, all those Mamoswine/Weavile an that are counters, and Mence is not going to switch into them now is he. Salamence can come into a huge list of pokemon, and threaten to OHKO them with Draco Meteor, and what can you do? Only steel type pokemon resist his STAB, and they take SE from EQ or Fire Blast. Making his offensive moveset 210 [Draco Meteor + STAB] / 240 [Fire Blast SE] / 200 [EQ SE] / 180 [Outrage + SE], backed up by 135 Atk / 110 SpA / 100 Spe, as well as having good defensive stats for a Sweeper, + Intimidate.
 
Salamence can come into a huge list of pokemon
Like what? Salamence can't even come into Uxie and Blissey properly due to status. It's not like Garchomp where he could come into Thunder Wave with impunity and start setting up SD sweeps.

Mence has a hard time switching into things anything other than a predicted EQ because any neutral hit is probably going to 2HKO him.
 
@Misa,
EQ immune, Bug/Grass (4x)/Fighting/Fire/Water resists, Intimidate, Intimidate, Intimidate. I have a fast Taunt lead or a spinner, and you have a slow, bulky lead or an anti-lead. Where are your rocks? It could go both ways, of course, but it's just as easy for me to assume SR is not up for the sake of the argument. You can't keep using that as a crutch to make Salamence easier to deal with.
And when think about, there is no other pokemon with the power and speed of Salamence that can take a neutral hit and survive with decent HP.
 
Most Grass/Fire/Water types have a move which can seriously cripple Mence (for example, Shaymin with HP Ice as well as Vaporeon with Ice Beam). Mence could switch in on Heracross but I haven't seen a Heracross in a long time. Also, most things that have a fire move in the standard metagame also has a move that Salamence is super effective to, so it's not all good news.

I suggest you read my posts from before you post stuff.
 

TheValkyries

proudly reppin' 2 superbowl wins since DEFLATEGATE
Most Grass/Fire/Water types have a move which can seriously cripple Mence (for example, Shaymin with HP Ice as well as Vaporeon with Ice Beam). Mence could switch in on Heracross but I haven't seen a Heracross in a long time. Also, most things that have a fire move in the standard metagame also has a move that Salamence is super effective to, so it's not all good news.

I suggest you read my posts from before you post stuff.
Because Ice Moves are the only moves that you use in an entire match. You NEVER use Earthquake or anything physical that Mence resists.
 
I suggest you read my posts from before you post stuff.
Why would we switch into Vaporeon or something? Thats like saying Scizor isn't good because if you switch it into Heatran, Scizor will die, therefore Scizor is not good. Thats the kind of logic you are using.

As to what can he switch into?
Any Ground move, don't even try to defend this, Earthquake is one of the most used moves in the game. Any physical sweeper attempting to use Grass/Water/Bug/Fire/Ground/Fight type moves. The -1 and NE makes them do extremely little, and Salamence's defenses are higher are fairly high for its offensive stats.

Also ever heard of a free switch? It can come into ANYTHING that is slower, and threaten to OHKO w/STAB or appropriate SE move. And there is nothing you can do about that.
 
...because any neutral hit is probably going to 2HKO him...
Most stuff that Salamence should be coming into shouldn't be 2HKOing him -- because he should be coming in on resisted hits (or Ground-type attacks) and forcing them out. Salamence's Speed is just high enough to ensure he can come in on things and not take the second hit.
 
Before I begin, I am assuming the primary argument for Salamence being ber is because of its unpredictability. Sorry if its not well organized...I'm tired :p

I don't know about the support characteristic, which some people may be able to argue, but I don't think Salamence is uber offensively.

A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it is capable of sweeping through a significant portion of teams in the metagame with little effort
.

A sweeper sweeps, obviously, so we should expect to take out at least ONE Pokemon.
Assuming SR is up, Salamence gets a maximum of three switch-ins (10% life orb + 25% SR), which would mean a maximum of three KOs. While three KOs is half of a team, this is the maximum. Unless your spamming earthquakes, you'll hopefully be getting SOME damage on Salamence. This leads to a more likely two KOs per game, which isn't totally absurd for a sweeper.

But what if it is holding leftovers? Then you know its NOT a Mixmence and you can tell this right away as it recovers from stealth rock damage.

But what if its choiced? Then its even easier to find a counter for.

But what if it has roost? Then it is MOST LIKELY not a Mixmence. And you should honestly be doing SOMETHING to Salamence as its roosting.

What if it has wish support? Use some prediction skills Einstein. Your opponent has a half-weakened Salamence and a full HP Jirachi or Blissey is using wish, what do you think is going to happen?

What if I don't have SR up? That's your own fault. Any battler should know how important SR is.

While there is some guesswork involved, a Salamence that comes in near the beginning of the game is most likely a Mixmence. If by chance its a DDmence, then it will most likely go on an outrage (as non-STABed earthquakes and Fire Blasts only go so far) and can be easily revenge killed (Scizor, scarfed Starmie, bulky waters, etc.) In this scenario, your opponent took down one Pokemon (two at the most) and you took down their Salamence. Not the best ending, but not terribly bad either.

Vice-versa (a Mixmence in late game) is severely less useful, so I won't even mention it.

Realistically, Salamence is going to take down AT LEAST one pokemon almost immediately upon switching. However, there are still other pokemon who can take down one pokemon immediately as well, such as Breloom. Its going to put something to sleep and thats just something to accept. I am NOT comparing Breloom to Salamence, I'm just saying that with or without Salamence, there will still be guesswork and there will still be the need to sacrifice pokes.
 
Just as an aside...

The "no other Pokemon can do X" argument is not a viable argument. A Pokemon being unique in any respect just means that the Pokemon is unique, not that it is broken. So saying that "no other Pokemon can do what Salamence can do" is just as much an argument for his banning as "no other Pokemon can do what Smeargle does" would be for banning Smeargle. You need to show that the things Salamence does make him too good for OU; Simply showing that he is the only one who can do them proves nothing.

Not aimed at anyone in particular, just the thread in general, since this argument seems to keep cropping up even though it really shouldn't.
 
@Subversion, then why is Wobbuffet uber, it can do something no other pokemon can....Its the reason most pokemon are in the uber tier, they can do what other pokemon simply can't.
 
Before I begin, I am assuming the primary argument for Salamence being ber is because of its unpredictability. Sorry if its not well organized...I'm tired :p

I don't know about the support characteristic, which some people may be able to argue, but I don't think Salamence is uber offensively.

A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it is capable of sweeping through a significant portion of teams in the metagame with little effort
.

A sweeper sweeps, obviously, so we should expect to take out at least ONE Pokemon.
Assuming SR is up, Salamence gets a maximum of three switch-ins (10% life orb + 25% SR), which would mean a maximum of three KOs. While three KOs is half of a team, this is the maximum. Unless your spamming earthquakes, you'll hopefully be getting SOME damage on Salamence. This leads to a more likely two KOs per game, which isn't totally absurd for a sweeper.

But what if it is holding leftovers? Then you know its NOT a Mixmence and you can tell this right away as it recovers from stealth rock damage.

But what if its choiced? Then its even easier to find a counter for.

But what if it has roost? Then it is MOST LIKELY not a Mixmence. And you should honestly be doing SOMETHING to Salamence as its roosting.

What if it has wish support? Use some prediction skills Einstein. Your opponent has a half-weakened Salamence and a full HP Jirachi or Blissey is using wish, what do you think is going to happen?

What if I don't have SR up? That's your own fault. Any battler should know how important SR is.

While there is some guesswork involved, a Salamence that comes in near the beginning of the game is most likely a Mixmence. If by chance its a DDmence, then it will most likely go on an outrage (as non-STABed earthquakes and Fire Blasts only go so far) and can be easily revenge killed (Scizor, scarfed Starmie, bulky waters, etc.) In this scenario, your opponent took down one Pokemon (two at the most) and you took down their Salamence. Not the best ending, but not terribly bad either.

Vice-versa (a Mixmence in late game) is severely less useful, so I won't even mention it.

Realistically, Salamence is going to take down AT LEAST one pokemon almost immediately upon switching. However, there are still other pokemon who can take down one pokemon immediately as well, such as Breloom. Its going to put something to sleep and thats just something to accept. I am NOT comparing Breloom to Salamence, I'm just saying that with or without Salamence, there will still be guesswork and there will still be the need to sacrifice pokes.
I don't like that definition of an uber due to the simple fact that walls such as Giratina are in ubers because of defensive capabilities.

There are some issues with your proposed argument I think to say that mence isn't an uber.

Ok, so let me put this forward you know the set of your opponent's mence is MixMence ok your not sure of exact moves though. What do you switch in? Is there a safe switch in to a good player using a mixmence? The answer is no. That's the problem with mence which was actually an issue with Garchomp with mence slightly lesser though. The problem is that there is no guaranteed switch in even if you know the set. Mixmence basically has perfect coverage nothing resists all it's moves and coming off a 130 Atk 110 Sp Atk you do not want to come in on a STAB Draco Meteor unresisting.

There are only 1 maybe 2 pokemon that can successfully counter mence and that in it's self isnt without flaws as Cressy even though considered a counter will take hefty damage even if it does KO. Pokemon like Weavile and Starmie ARE NOT COUNTERS they are considered checks.
 
Applying shrung's logic and backtracking a bit:

-Unban Garchomp, Latias and Salamence
-Ban all the counters that counter these three
-You now have a list of Pokemon that counter the "biggest" threats of the metagame that also have no counter. But you can't ban them, only ban their counter's counters. But these don't exist, since no counters exist to them in the first place
-Super centralisation ftw.
Smart lets just unban three pokemon that have no counters for people to put in their teams so they can win matches easily and break the metagame :P!
 
Well, I am sure when someone says to ban a counter, SARCASM is intended.
I admit it is easier to build a team with mence than without it.
But for those who wish to compare Salamence with Infernape and such, and say that Salamence has less reliable counters... sure. But the thing is, the wallbreaker or sweeper gets its job done.
EDT: again I am trying to stand on neither side.

Off topic, but to the one who said Dragonite won't become suspect... I am not too sure. I am not saying it WILL become suspect, but, you know, humans are a bit more unpredictable that Salamence...
And I wish everyone to have better manners (again not going to specify who), after all we are trying to shape a better metagame for fun, for good, for enjoyment. Not insulting or pressurising.
 
I don't like that definition of an uber due to the simple fact that walls such as Giratina are in ubers because of defensive capabilities.

There are some issues with your proposed argument I think to say that mence isn't an uber.

Ok, so let me put this forward you know the set of your opponent's mence is MixMence ok your not sure of exact moves though. What do you switch in? Is there a safe switch in to a good player using a mixmence? The answer is no. That's the problem with mence which was actually an issue with Garchomp with mence slightly lesser though. The problem is that there is no guaranteed switch in even if you know the set. Mixmence basically has perfect coverage nothing resists all it's moves and coming off a 130 Atk 110 Sp Atk you do not want to come in on a STAB Draco Meteor unresisting.

There are only 1 maybe 2 pokemon that can successfully counter mence and that in it's self isnt without flaws as Cressy even though considered a counter will take hefty damage even if it does KO. Pokemon like Weavile and Starmie ARE NOT COUNTERS they are considered checks.
Was it not decided, oh fifteen or twenty pages ago, that a Pokemon not having counters was not a viable argument for banning? You point out Cresselia as being a sort of counter but say that it "will take hefty damage" but that is true of switching into almost every sweeper.

Also, as much as I disagree with Mence going to Uber, I wish people would see the intrinsic flaw with simply comparing him to Dragonite as justification; which, is happening on both sides of the table.

Honestly, I rarely have a problem with Salamence on the OU ladder. It is incredibly easy to scare out, regardless of the set, and it truly poses less of a threat to my (most of) teams than other common sweepers like Scizor or Heatran or Lucario. Well, maybe not Heatran. This is not because I designed them with Salamence in mind but because he is incredibly easy to revenge kill. So what if he takes out one member of my team. If I revenge KO it, I just took out one member of his team, probably one more integral to his team. Any Pokemon is a problem once it starts boosting up, which is why they made priority moves in the first place. Also, if he just took something out with Outrage, guess what move he's gonna use next.
 
Was it not decided, oh fifteen or twenty pages ago, that a Pokemon not having counters was not a viable argument for banning? You point out Cresselia as being a sort of counter but say that it "will take hefty damage" but that is true of switching into almost every sweeper.

Also, as much as I disagree with Mence going to Uber, I wish people would see the intrinsic flaw with simply comparing him to Dragonite as justification; which, is happening on both sides of the table.

I think for a pokemon with such offensive calibre as Salamence would be at least considered for Uber if it had NO counters...I mean for something with lower Atk/Spa it would not matter as much, but when a pokemon has such high offensive stats, decent typing, extremely poweful STABs and complimentary SE moves makes there almost no direct counter. And when we say 'hefty damage', we mean 50%+, allowing for 2HKOs including the switch. If you look at something like Infernape, you can easily switch to Tentacruel with little or no fear, don't bring up but the SD Set rapes tentacruel [tentarape?], because that set is rarely used.

Honestly, I rarely have a problem with Salamence on the OU ladder. It is incredibly easy to scare out, regardless of the set, and it truly poses less of a threat to my (most of) teams than other common sweepers like Scizor or Heatran or Lucario. Well, maybe not Heatran. This is not because I designed them with Salamence in mind but because he is incredibly easy to revenge kill. So what if he takes out one member of my team. If I revenge KO it, I just took out one member of his team, probably one more integral to his team. Any Pokemon is a problem once it starts boosting up, which is why they made priority moves in the first place. Also, if he just took something out with Outrage, guess what move he's gonna use next.

The pokemon you listed are ALL checks/revenge killers. None of them can come into 2 out of 4 of his moves, and those 2 moves are likely to be chosen on the switch, as to not be -2 SpA or locked into Outrage, but you can't really tell can you? Also Jolly Life Orb ExtremeSpeed form 252 Atk Lucario against 0 HP / 0 Def Salamence 319 Atk vs 196 Def & 331 HP (80 Base Power): 122 - 144 (36.86% - 43.50%)....Choice item users can't really be considered checks/counters, as in they can, but anything that HAS to lock itself onto a move just to take down a Pokemon gives your opponent a free turn to set up, im not saying they don't count, but lets look at other options. I mean locking yourself into Ice Punch/Ice Beam is like saying hey, now set up with something else!! Remember Salamence can switch out too, and although kind of irrelevant, many teams use a rapid spinner soley so there Salamence does not take SR damage. But anyway, 252 Atk Scizor @ Life Orb does 394 Atk vs 196 Def & 331 HP (60 Base Power): 169 - 199 (51.06% - 60.12%), with Choice Band and SR its a OHKO, but then you are giving your opponent a free switch and a free turn to do whatever they want.
 
The pokemon you listed are ALL checks/revenge killers. None of them can come into 2 out of 4 of his moves, and those 2 moves are likely to be chosen on the switch, as to not be -2 SpA or locked into Outrage, but you can't really tell can you? Also Jolly Life Orb ExtremeSpeed form 252 Atk Lucario against 0 HP / 0 Def Salamence 319 Atk vs 196 Def & 331 HP (80 Base Power): 122 - 144 (36.86% - 43.50%)....Choice item users can't really be considered checks/counters, as in they can, but anything that HAS to lock itself onto a move just to take down a Pokemon gives your opponent a free turn to set up, im not saying they don't count, but lets look at other options. I mean locking yourself into Ice Punch/Ice Beam is like saying hey, now set up with something else!! Remember Salamence can switch out too, and although kind of irrelevant, many teams use a rapid spinner soley so there Salamence does not take SR damage. But anyway, 252 Atk Scizor @ Life Orb does 394 Atk vs 196 Def & 331 HP (60 Base Power): 169 - 199 (51.06% - 60.12%), with Choice Band and SR its a OHKO, but then you are giving your opponent a free switch and a free turn to do whatever they want.
If you'll note, I did not say, or even imply, that any one of those was a Salamence counter. I said that they were a significant threat to me and my teams and implied that they were in fact harder to deal with than almost every Salamence.
As for "forgetting" that Salamence can switch out I believe that the first point I made was that Salamence was 'incredibly easy to scare out' also if it's locked into Outrage then NO it can NOT switch out.

I don't know if you only read bits and pieces of my post or if your reading comprehension skill are terrible. Either way, please make thought out replies rather than throwing some Damage Calculations around to rationalize your inability to read.
 
If you'll note, I did not say, or even imply, that any one of those was a Salamence counter. I said that they were a significant threat to me and my teams and implied that they were in fact harder to deal with than almost every Salamence.
As for "forgetting" that Salamence can switch out I believe that the first point I made was that Salamence was 'incredibly easy to scare out' also if it's locking into Outrage then NO it can NOT switch out.

I don't know if you only read bits and pieces of my post or if your reading comprehension skill are terrible. Either way, please make thought out replies rather than throwing some Damage Calculations around to rationalize your inability to read.
So none of your arguments work against Salamence...Just about every single pokemon can be killed/scared out, applying this to Salamence is irrelevant to the topic, I just thought maybe you worded your post wrong, because right now that post means nothing.
 
So none of your arguments work against Salamence...Just about every single pokemon can be killed/scared out, applying this to Salamence is irrelevant to the topic, I just thought maybe you worded your post wrong, because right now that post means nothing.
Exactly, you can do it to "almost every single pokemon". My point was, it is not that special. It is very much like everything else.
 
Shizzle said:
@Subversion, then why is Wobbuffet uber, it can do something no other pokemon can....Its the reason most pokemon are in the uber tier, they can do what other pokemon simply can't.
Maybe because it's actually broken...?

Man, people need to learn reading comprehension.

A = Pokémon that do useful things that no one else can
B = Pokémon that are broken

It's obvious that B is inside A. However, A is NOT inside B. When looking at Salamence, we are looking at an element of A that might be in B. Wobbuffet, on the other hand, is decidedly in B. Wobbuffet being in B says nothing about whether Salamence is in B.

Seriously.
 
@Revolution.Z

That is only the definition of an offensive uber. There are other definitions for a defensive and a support uber.
 
Maybe because it's actually broken...?

Man, people need to learn reading comprehension.

A = Pokémon that do useful things that no one else can
B = Pokémon that are broken

It's obvious that B is inside A. However, A is NOT inside B. When looking at Salamence, we are looking at an element of A that might be in B. Wobbuffet, on the other hand, is decidedly in B. Wobbuffet being in B says nothing about whether Salamence is in B.

Seriously.
I know, but Salamence does have aspects which make it somewhat broken in OU, such as previously mentioned high stats + powerful physical AND special STAB moves, as well as complimentary moves which deal SE to the only type which resists.

Him making a simple statement saying that is incorrect, he is saying that since each pokemon is unique, does not make them bannable, WHICH CAN BE APPLIED TO EVERY SINGLE POKEMON.

The "no other Pokemon can do X" argument is not a viable argument. A Pokemon being unique in any respect just means that the Pokemon is unique, not that it is broken. So saying that "no other Pokemon can do what Salamence can do" is just as much an argument for his banning as "no other Pokemon can do what Smeargle does"
Where the fuck is the logic in that? He completely disregards ever single argument for Salamence being uber that has been presented.
 
I don't like that definition of an uber due to the simple fact that walls such as Giratina are in ubers because of defensive capabilities.

There are some issues with your proposed argument I think to say that mence isn't an uber.

Ok, so let me put this forward you know the set of your opponent's mence is MixMence ok your not sure of exact moves though. What do you switch in? Is there a safe switch in to a good player using a mixmence? The answer is no. That's the problem with mence which was actually an issue with Garchomp with mence slightly lesser though. The problem is that there is no guaranteed switch in even if you know the set. Mixmence basically has perfect coverage nothing resists all it's moves and coming off a 130 Atk 110 Sp Atk you do not want to come in on a STAB Draco Meteor unresisting.

There are only 1 maybe 2 pokemon that can successfully counter mence and that in it's self isnt without flaws as Cressy even though considered a counter will take hefty damage even if it does KO. Pokemon like Weavile and Starmie ARE NOT COUNTERS they are considered checks.
The only difference between mixmence and other sweepers is that mixmence can pretty much take down any pokemon, while other sweepers have harder counters. But even if mixmence does get one or two guaranteed kills, that is still not a significant portion of the opponent's team, so it is not an uber offensively.
 
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