1. Welcome to Smogon! Check out the Smogon Starters Hangout for everything you need to know about starting out in the community. Don't forget to introduce yourself in the Introduction and Hangout Thread, too!
  2. Welcome to Smogon Forums! Please take a minute to read the rules.

Trick Room in the 5th Generation

Discussion in 'BW OU' started by Lee, Oct 8, 2010.

  1. RocketSurgery

    RocketSurgery

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2010
    Messages:
    73
    Ah! I clearly haven't played around with the IVs enough. Thanks for pointing that out.
  2. DDRMaster

    DDRMaster

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2008
    Messages:
    2,692
    You could always run Brick Break instead of Wild Bolt. Expert Belt Brick Break has slightly more power than Life Orb Wild Bolt and you won't even be taking the recoil damage from LO. U-turn/Volt Change is still good to do damage and would function as a way to get out of counters without wasting a TR turn. In general, I'm not really sure Life Orb is neccesary. I haven't seen a calc yet that allows Shibirudon to get a OHKO/2HKO that it wouldn't get with Expert Belt.
  3. Forsety

    Forsety

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2006
    Messages:
    1,634
    More experimenting around (and probably one too many losses for my liking due to still trying to work out a good synergy and experimenting more) is telling me that physical Shiburudon doesn't function too well in a TR team with a true Mixed set. Its just too weak overall and lack of Lefties kills the one thing he has going for him which is bulk.

    Special Shibu however works abit better but most of the time but it seems better to not run U-Turn at all. I find both Dragon Tail and U-Turn have around the same effectiveness in a Grass Knot/Volt Change/Flamethrower set. Dragon Tail has merits in that people really really love switching in dragons into Shibu all the time for some reason and it doubles for phazing certain other setups.

    More experimenting with Shubarago has finally convinced me to rethink my stance on it and can only be described as the equivilent of throwing a kryptonian death fortress at Superman. Even if he stops it hes still screwed.

    Shubarago@Choice Band
    -Aerial Ace
    -Megahorn
    -Pursuit
    -Iron Head

    After SR is up the only counters to the thing can literally be named as Shanderaa, Heatran, Gliscor and Skarmory. I'd only consider Shanderaa a true counter since he can trap but SR can thankfully make him abit easier to deal with as it normally takes 47% from Megahorn. Although he lacks the priority of Scizor he has way more bulk and power to compensate for it. Seriously OHKO'ing Garchomps and 2HKO'ing Nattorei is glorious.

    I've noticed some more problems with TR teams however, I'm just wondering if its me...

    • Bulk Up Roopushin is quite frankly a penis. Hes not that great without Bulk Up but once he has it, he functions ridiculously both in and out TR. Problem is he usually functions better against TR teams rather than with and is currently one of the top 10 most OU. More than often your only counter for this guy will be Rankurusu and he'll have to forfeit Recover or Shadowball for it. The set in question that causes so much pain is Drain Punch/Mach Punch/Payback/BulkUp.
    • Trick, god Trick is a pain. Not even Magic Coat saves you from this.
    • Fire is very very hot and it hurts alot. Due to the way TR teams are limited for choices it seems a very strong fire attacker can often still rip through you. You'll often only have maybe one slot for something which doesn't mind boosted fire hits, but once they go down...
    • Hippowdon fat stalling turd blah blah.
    • Powerful priority like DDRMaster mentioned is huge, problem is only a select few can use it effectively.
    • Stealth Rock is very very hard to lay out when you're constantly working against a clock.
    • Did I mention Roopushin is asshole? I feel that needs extra stressing.
    • Again echoing one of DDRMasters words, a token fast sweeper can be useful. Really if Leaf Storm Jarooda shows up you're screwed, it simply doesn't mater how much bulk you do have.
    • Don't discount Gallade as another potential TR starter, he is absolutely amazing as an anti-lead.
    • Rankurusu is the god of Trick Room, honestly it controls the entire game and losing it is a huge blow to any TR team.
    I've yet to try Erufuun but I'm a tad bit wary about that he tends to attract nukes like no tomorrow and can't really fight back much.
  4. breh

    breh ⁰ ゝ⁰
    is a Smogon IRC AOPis a Tiering Contributor

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2010
    Messages:
    3,203
    I've been running a team modeled (I.E. Pretty much blatant copying) on DDRMaster's on PO. I just started playing on PO today and my rating jumped up to 500ish from app. 20 battles, most wins.... this is what I have so far:

    Show Hide

    Obnoxious (Celebi) @ Iron Ball
    Trait: Natural Cure
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SDef
    Relaxed Nature (+Def, -Spd)
    - Stealth Rock
    - Trick Room
    - Leaf Storm
    - U-turn

    Hurr Durr (Dusclops) (M) @ Evolution Stone
    Trait: Pressure
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SDef
    Relaxed Nature (+Def, -Spd)
    - Night Shade
    - Pain Split
    - Will-O-Wisp
    - Trick Room

    Embryomon (Rankurusu) (M) @ Life Orb
    Trait: Magic Guard
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SAtk
    Quiet Nature (+SAtk, -Spd)
    - Psychic
    - Shadow Ball
    - Focus Blast
    - Trick Room

    Parkour (Roobushin) (M) @ Life Orb
    Trait: Guts
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
    Brave Nature (+Atk, -Spd)
    - Hammer Arm
    - Stone Edge
    - Earthquake
    - Mach Punch

    Hydra A (Scizor) (M) @ Choice Band
    Trait: Technician
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
    Brave Nature (+Atk, -Spd)
    - U-turn
    - Superpower
    - Bug Bite
    - Bullet Punch

    Raijin (Borutorosu) (M) @ Choice Specs
    Trait: Mischievous Heart
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Thunderbolt
    - Volt Change
    - Thunder Wave
    - Hidden Power [Ice]

    First thing I have to say is that PO players are terrible. for god's sake, only 2 3 (if manaphy is a suspect) of the players I found used suspects...

    Anyway, after only a few battles, I can safely say that Rankurusu is TR's herald this gen; it is really really good. Dusclops is surprisingly bulky, once taking a sun Hihidaruma Encourage FB and setting up TR for the win.

    The other members are useful. I tried to use celebi just so I would have a lead that doesn't say "hi please taunt me" and be useful towards Hippos. It's working out okay but I'm thinking of running a more offensive spread so as to OHKO Hippo and drop the iron ball so that I can have the slowest u-turn ever.

    Roopushin and Scizor provide priority for when TR goes down and the former counters Doryuuzu. I use Scizor less as a scout and more for its priority and because it offers a valued steel typing and all of the nice resistances along with it.

    finally, Voltros is really cool in general. I'm thinking of replacing thunder wave (the orignial intention of which was, when I'm really screwed over by a... +2 Ononokusu or something, I use it and get it before they attack... haven't used it once lol).

    A last point I want to make is that I seem to win generally by virtue of bulk on my pokemon, not speed in TR. TR certainly helps but sometimes I can just get by by abusing the fact that every one has fantastic defenses.
  5. DDRMaster

    DDRMaster

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2008
    Messages:
    2,692
    lol I really don't mind. And the only thing that's exactly the same is Dusclops, which can't really run anything else (besides maybe Seismic Toss). If you weren't using Rankurusu, I'd probably tell you to use Rankurusu.
  6. Forsety

    Forsety

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2006
    Messages:
    1,634
    Have to agree, it seems generally most of the time the key to a TR teams success is more bulk than anything. It seems everytime I do run into problems its simply against something equally as or more bulky.

    Could try U-Turn like everyone else seems to do.
  7. ~Yadoking~

    ~Yadoking~

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2010
    Messages:
    87
    Reposting since noone answered.

    (Hope I'm not being annoying tho)
  8. breh

    breh ⁰ ゝ⁰
    is a Smogon IRC AOPis a Tiering Contributor

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2010
    Messages:
    3,203
    @ Yadoking:

    It doesn't seem like a bad idea at all. I used a Celebi lead to good success so mew should be similarly good.

    However, I'd suggest running Taunt (for Hippos) and SR in the last slots so that mew can do something. Rocks really aid a sweep and it seems like so much stuff is barely not OHKOed by Rankurusu's moves (for example Nattorei).
  9. Forsety

    Forsety

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2006
    Messages:
    1,634
    SR in the last slot would be good since its really hard to find room for a rocks setup in a TR team and it helps alot. Super Fang would stop anything walling Mew however (cept Duskclops >.>) I don't think much of Taunt personally on that set it doesn't really do much.
  10. Ech0ez

    Ech0ez

    Joined:
    Oct 11, 2010
    Messages:
    85
    Show Hide

    Porygon 2 @ Evolution Stone
    EVs: 252 HP / 156 Def / 100 Sp.Def
    Nature: Relaxed
    Ability: Trace
    ~Trick Room
    ~Magic Coat
    ~Recover
    ~Ice Beam

    Bronzong @ Leftovers
    EVs: 252 HP / 88 Atk / 80 Def / 88 Sp.Def
    Nature: Relaxed
    Ability: Levitate
    ~Trick Room
    ~Stealth Rock
    ~Earthquake
    ~Gyro Ball

    Rankurusu @ Life Orb
    EVs: 176 HP / 80 Def / 252 Sp.Atk
    Nature: Quiet
    Ability: Magic Guard
    ~Trick Room
    ~Psycho Shock
    ~Shadow Ball
    ~Focus Blast

    Roobushin @ Toxic Orb
    EVs: 120 HP / 252 Atk / 136 Sp.Def
    Nature: Brave
    Ability: Guts
    ~Hammer Arm
    ~Mach Punch
    ~Payback
    ~Stone Edge

    Scizor @ Choice Band
    EVs: 240 HP / 252 Atk / 16 Sp.Def
    Nature:
    Ability:
    ~Bullet Punch
    ~SuperPower
    ~Pursuit
    ~U-Turn

    Latios @ Life Orb
    EVs: 252 Sp.Atk / 4 Sp.Def / 252 Speed
    Nature: Timid
    Ability: Levitate
    ~Psycho Shock
    ~Thunderbolt
    ~Surf
    ~Dragon Pulse


    Had a pretty good streak of success with this. So far pretty much every loss I've had has been down to misplays or in one case a misclick, the team itself flows amazingly. Only thing I can't stand is Kojondo. I'm basically forced to lead with Latios or Rankurusu once I see it since it walks all over pretty much everything else with that ridiculous HJK.
  11. ~Yadoking~

    ~Yadoking~

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2010
    Messages:
    87
    Ah, the rocks of course!! (forgot it was a TM in 4th gen) I will make a Trick Room team at once BW comes to Europe. (So nice we just got Mew as an event : D)
  12. Kristy Haruka

    Kristy Haruka

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2006
    Messages:
    1,408
    Has anyone used Ampharos in a Trick Room team? I know its probably not as good as other slow Electrics like Magnezone and Shibirudon but I think it has its differences...
  13. breh

    breh ⁰ ゝ⁰
    is a Smogon IRC AOPis a Tiering Contributor

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2010
    Messages:
    3,203

    But why exactly? Cotton Guard is out of the question because TR is bad for setup (except maaaaybe TR Slowking) in general. At that point you're left mostly with attacking options - Thunder/bolt, Focus Blast, the Hidden Powers, and Signal Beam.

    Shibirudon has a far better movepool, ability, and an only slightly lesser attacking stat, the ability to go mixed, and similar defenses.

    I don't see how it's not outclassed, honestly.
  14. Forsety

    Forsety

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2006
    Messages:
    1,634
    You'd like to think but sadly Amphy is outclassed in the very sense of the word in a TR team. Shibirudon offers no weaknesses, similar bulk and only 10 base less s.atk. Rotom W offers unmatched support, great coverage and unique resistances. Magnezone has overkill s.atk and that dual steel typing.
  15. DDRMaster

    DDRMaster

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2008
    Messages:
    2,692
    When I tried Ubers Trick Room, I ran near max SpDef and max HP with min Speed and Trick Room/Magic Coat/Stealth Rock/U-turn and it worked well. Not much could OHKO it without a STAB SE move and it could reflect back Taunts and Dark Voids that were aimed at it. Mew often gets a free turn or two to set up both SR and TR, especially if it reflects a Taunt.

    I haven't tried it in OU but it should work just as well.
  16. Kristy Haruka

    Kristy Haruka

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2006
    Messages:
    1,408
    Oh no... Poor Amphy. :[
  17. ~Yadoking~

    ~Yadoking~

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2010
    Messages:
    87
    I would guess my TR team would be something like:

    Mew (Lead, TR and SR setter)
    Shibirudon (Mixed, perhaps SubCharge)
    Rankurusu (TR renewer, Special sweeper)
    Burungeru (Special wall, TR renewer)
    Zuruzukin (Bulk up Physical sweeper)

    Now I need a cleanup poké, I want to use Shanderaa, but that makes 4 dark/Ghost weaks so maybe YOU have an Idea?
    EDIT: Warubiaru perhaps?
    No, wait GIGIGEAR!!!! (yell it loud!)
    Editing more (Changes Slowking to Burungeru since it provides a Bug resist)
  18. Forsety

    Forsety

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2006
    Messages:
    1,634
    Thats going to be too slow to get started and too weak to get necessary KO's, I run near max s.atk with +nature and the damage loss from using Volt Change is big enough I sometimes fail to score necessary KO's. Only reason I even bother with Volt Change when I do use it is because I need to keep my offense flowing. Not to mention you're running Zuru too, two stat setup Pokemon is too much for a TR room and will cause you to lose all your momentum.

    Ideally for a cleanup Pokemon you need something fast with overwhelming power and/or good coverage. Neither Shanderaa or Gigigear fall into these criteria, honestly have you seen how horrendous Gigigears movepool is? Shanderaa is also slow as crap and needs to run Scarf which also gets it horrendously mauled by revenge kills.

    Right now just looking at your proposed idea you're also lacking a real powerhouse who can abuse the Trick Room to its full extent. Also your dark/ghost weakness is a understatement many pokemon who pack Dark moves also pack a fighting one for coverage and Zuru isn't going to like that.
  19. Plusle

    Plusle

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2010
    Messages:
    1,042
    I'm writing a article about this for the smog.
  20. Twins

    Twins

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2010
    Messages:
    113
    I can't believe no one really mentioned Musharna. It has excellent defenses of 116/85/95, 107 special attack, and a minimum of 63 speed. It was practically made for trick room. It gets moonlight for recovery, puts things to sleep with Hypnosis, can set up trick room, and can deal some damage with its pretty wide movepool. I think you could run a set like this:

    Moonlight/Hypnosis
    Trick Room
    Psychic/Psycho Shock
    Calm Mind/Hypnosis/ Shadow Ball/ Energy Ball

    Moonlight for recovery, Trick Room for obvious reasons, Psychic or Psycho shock to do damage on either special defense or defense, and the last move for boosting, sleeping, or another attack. It would do pretty well, and last long too.
  21. ~Yadoking~

    ~Yadoking~

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2010
    Messages:
    87
    ^ most likely since Rankurusu outclasses it hard.
    Musharna is 1 point faster in TR tho.
    oh, and a little more Def.
  22. DDRMaster

    DDRMaster

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2008
    Messages:
    2,692
    This, Musharna does have slightly more bulk and less Speed than Rankurusu, but Rankurusu has higher SpAtk, Recover, Magic Guard, and Focus Blast.
  23. Twins

    Twins

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2010
    Messages:
    113
    Oh yeah, forgot about Rankurusu. They seem to serve the same purpose. Musharna could be used more defensively with its higher defensive stats of 116/85/95, vs Rankurusu's 110/75/85. Musharna could survive longer though, and possibly set up a couple trick rooms. Maybe someone could run a crazy drought+trick room set, making moonlight that much better. Rankurusu does get better offensive moves and stats, but Musharna has hypnosis, which disables a pokemon for a couple turns, allowing it to set up calm mind.

    Both pokemon seem to be extremely similar though. Same type, near similar stats (Rankurusu has 3 more BST than Musharna), same generation, similar move pools, same purpose. Musharna is more for support and defense, while Rankurusu is more on the offense.
  24. DDRMaster

    DDRMaster

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2008
    Messages:
    2,692
    I really don't think Musharna's higher Defenses really mean that much. Rankurusu has Magic Guard which means it can easily switch into Entry Hazards and is immune to Sandstorm damage. It also has Recover which means that it can still heal its HP effectively if Sandstorm is up. Hypnosis is really Musharna's only niche.
  25. Ech0ez

    Ech0ez

    Joined:
    Oct 11, 2010
    Messages:
    85
    It's also worth noting that Musharna and Rankurusu comparisons mean little when Musharna is also outclassed by Cresselia pretty badly. Musharna's best used for it's own niches like been a bulky Curse/CM passer, not an inferior Rank/Cress. Especially on Trick Room where both serve more purpose than it.

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)