Sarcastic or not i mightve shit my pants laughing to this lololol
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Pokémon Tyrantrum
- Thread starter JSND
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Assuming I did the math right, (and assuming Smogon PS' stat calculations are correct) one DD will put a jolly Tyrantrum w/ 252 speed above greninja by 20 (397). I'd say it's worth it.
As a STAB move, they're very weak attacks, because you're STAB is supposed to be something you can rely on. As Coverage moves with Strong Jaw however, they are quite potent. Thunder Fang was Luxray's best STAB, but Tyrantrum already has a STAB and then also some rather strong Coverage moves (And by rather strong I mean stronger than Thunderbolt and equivelant).
It's not really a fair comparison. If Luxray got Strong Jaw he would absolutely use Thunder Fang.
What would my other options besides Scoliopede be? I know he's strong now but I don't really like him as a pokemon.
I'm thinking a set with Greninja, Tyrantrum, Crobat (Defog), and Yzard so far... I could use some electric and grass, maybe Galvantula? And likely a bulky grass.
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Blaziken is a solid passing alternative to Scolipede. Almost too solid in fact; you may need to get in fast in case he gets banished to ubers again.
Of course he would use it since he also got STAB for it :P 97 BP + STAB is pretty good.
But you're right, it's true that many non STAB moves just are weaker... but I dunno, they're still not strong enough to OHKO stuff if they're SE, so you need enough damage on your opponents before you can use him, since he doesn't want to get hit back specially / super effectively. So even after a DD and no Scizor to fear you wouldn't just beat anything that comes at you. His attack stat is really underwhelming. That's why he needed Strong Jaw to boost a STAB move...
Wait what? 121 attack is underwhelming? How?!
Well, it's underwhelming for a TRex. You'd think he has more.
341 isn't that great. It's a little better than decent (100 base is decent).
Without Head Smash he just wouldn't have enough power (and without Rock Head he wouldn't want to use Head Smash too much).
He's lucky to get HS and RH tbh, otherwise he'd kinda suck. Even at +1 attack his attacks won't OHKO anything with a little bulk, unless his STAB is super effective.
How is it underwhelming? 121 is Gyarados level, and he's never had power problems before, even though he has weaker STAB and coverage moves.
It's his speed, bulk and defensive typing that's underwhelming.
It's his speed, bulk and defensive typing that's underwhelming.
21 Base points is "a little" better in your eyes? That's a huge amount. He's at gyarados level power there, although defensively he is a little weaker than gyarados, he also has a 150BP stab move and the tools to abuse it. Yeah he's lucky to get HS+RH, but I don't see your point. Blaziken is lucky to get speed boost and Mega gengar is lucky to get shadow tag. It seems to me like you're just trying to discredit him for the sake of discrediting him.
Have you seen these calcs? The T-rex is dangerous.
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/tyrantrum.3489911/page-11#post-4922829
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/tyrantrum.3489911/page-11#post-4924863
BTW I had some idea, when hopefully Rock Head Tyrantrum will be legal (is there any confirmation outside of one certain screen we all know) ? This is a set idea which I came up with.
Tyrantrum @ Life Orb
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Nature: Adamant or Jolly
Ability: Rock Head
~ Head Smash
~ Earthquake
~ Dragon Dance
~ Rock Polish
While some of you may wonder "WTF WHY BOTH RP AND DD ON THE SAME SET" I think answer is obvious. This is technically unique version of DoubleDance Pokemon, which you have 2 options in using boosting moves according to situation. If you face bulky team or you want this Tyrantrum version to mostly wall-break - use Dragon Dance. If you see squishy HO team or you see someone relying on speedy check to counter Tyrantrum like ScarfJirachi or ScarfTerrakion - Rock Polish. In this situation you technically put them into checkmate situation. BTW Dragon Dance + Life Orb gives you 20% MORE power then Choice Band (if you run Jolly) or 30% (if you run Adamant). So trust me, power is not a problem for this guy and honestly - he doesn't really need Swords Dance to do this job. What is good about this set is flexibility - it's hard to revenge kill when set-up and even without boosts Life Orb Head Smash hurts like hell, so staying in may not be the smartest idea. BTW in 90% of cases you will end up using Head Smash anyway and Earthquake cover technically everything except Ferrothorn and Garchomp, which both go down anyway from DD Head Smash if they take at least 30-50% of HP depending on your damage roll on Head Smash, so you don't really need fangs here to dominate. Bronzong, while he resists both STABs, unless he invest really HEAVY AMOUNT of EVs in defense, go in two hits from Head Smash. BTW Magnezone looks like a great partner for this - He can trap both Bronzong and Ferrothorn and finish them off, allowing Tyrantrum for free rampage.
341 attack is not the same as 349. If you run a +atk nature it's good, but then you're missing speed which is more important.
For Gyarados it isn't as big of a problem because he can set up more DDs because of its type / and/or Intimidate, and because of Moxie. Without them he isn't really too strong (also because of low BP moves but Tyrantrums moves besides Head Smash are also not that strong).
Yes 21 base points is much better than 21 less, but 121 is still not that great. You must not have seen/used all the other Pokemon and their stats if you're satisfied with 121.
Archeops with 379 attack (max neutral nature), base 140, doesn't even have enough power to get him through anything with a little bulk, unless he's super effective. Against anything a little more defensive you can't even get through with a Flying Gem boosted Acrobatics. If you just think of facing sweepers who have no defensive EVs then sure you can hit through some even if you're not super effective...
Besides, I am talking about his attack stat and not of his move(s). I was also clearly saying "besides Head Smash...".
Let me quote (one of my?) above post(s): "If he didn't have Head Smash and Rock Head he'd have even more problems." (something like that)
With these, he's pretty strong, yes. Obviously he'd still be strong without Rock Head, but losing more than half his HP wouldn't really be worth a team slot for that. If Rampardos didn't have that high attack / HP, he'd be really really bad (because of the huge recoil). With them I can still use him to some success.
Of course a really strong move makes you much stronger. Victinis V-Create is not joke, but not because of its attack stat.
tl;dr:
His attack stat is not bad, but it's not that great as well. With Head Smash he is still really strong though. And Rock Head makes it useable.
[ anything else besides Head Smash will be lacking power though ]
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I feel like Tyrantrum will be very viable. He has a nice move pool, containing the elemental fangs (and Huge Jaw making each one effectively a solid 97 BP move! I'm looking at you, Fire Fang) and a nice toy in Poison Fang which becomes a solid 75 BP move giving him a nice way to hit fairies. Rock/Dragon is a nice typing both offensively and defensively, moreso offensively.
a set I have been using lately is Assualt Vest Tyrantrum. I was going for bulky offense, and he's worked wonders in sand.
Tyrantrum@ Assualt Vest
252 HP/252 Atk/ 4 Def
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Claw
- Stone Edge
- Fire Fang
- Earthquake/Poison Fang
Dragon Claw and Stone Miss are his primary STABS, dealing out wonderful damage to anything that doesn't resist it. Fire Fang brings in perfect Fire/Dragon coverage, and the last slot is for preference. If you'd rather beat fairies like Azumarill and Slyveon head on, use Poison Fang. If you want to hit Aegislash more reliably and not worry about King's Shield dropping your attack, choose Earthquake. I've used this set to great effect and it works wonderfully in sand. Really looking forward to this guy in the XY meta.
a set I have been using lately is Assualt Vest Tyrantrum. I was going for bulky offense, and he's worked wonders in sand.
Tyrantrum@ Assualt Vest
252 HP/252 Atk/ 4 Def
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Claw
- Stone Edge
- Fire Fang
- Earthquake/Poison Fang
Dragon Claw and Stone Miss are his primary STABS, dealing out wonderful damage to anything that doesn't resist it. Fire Fang brings in perfect Fire/Dragon coverage, and the last slot is for preference. If you'd rather beat fairies like Azumarill and Slyveon head on, use Poison Fang. If you want to hit Aegislash more reliably and not worry about King's Shield dropping your attack, choose Earthquake. I've used this set to great effect and it works wonderfully in sand. Really looking forward to this guy in the XY meta.
I don't think he is lucky to get HS and RH, I think GameFreak just made a good decision in limiting his power so that it doesn't become another easy button like Banded Outrages and Specs Draco Meteors were in 5th Gen. I mean imaging a 140 base Atk Rock Head Head Smash. Just slap a Band and spam away. GameFreak made a good decision in giving him a powerful combination that requires skill to pull off and that has some good counter play. Tyrantrum is pretty balanced in my opinion, hes powerful enough to sweep and wallbreak, but not powerful enough to destroy the metagame with his Head Smash. And what do you mean his +1 attacks cannot OHKO slightly bulky Pokemon. With Jolly LO, you have a good chance of OHKO Banded Scizor on switch in without setting up and at +1 you have a chance to OHKO Gliscor. If that's not bulky idk what is. There is obviously those things that can take +1 Head Smashes like Ferrothorn and Hippowdown but like I said, that's welcomed to maintain a balanced metagame.
Well, it'll still be like that though, lol. Head Smash + Rock Head is just too good. Some will be choiced and some will go with DD. Strong Jaw will likely be less common since even 97 BP moves aren't that strong without STAB and just 341 attack (although maybe some will go Adamat).
I still wish they didn't just give him Head Smash + Rock Head to spam it (not to mention it has shaky accuracy) to basically recreate a new and better Rampardos to make that thing even more useless. They needed to create some STAB moves that make use of his Strong Jaw... we'll have a TRex that will bang its head against things instead of biting things, because it'll be way stronger. It's just kinda sad.
I don't think he'll be able to sweep much since many teams will have some walls he just can't get through, or scarfers / Scizor to revenge kill him. If nothing else stops him he could also just miss. He'll still be a somewhat decent Pokemon though.
atm you can't get it
Yea I really wish he did have a biting move that got STAB, something that would distinguish him more, maybe even a move similar to Freeze Dry like the other fossil. It would make both abilities viable and keep your opponent guessing. From testing on showdown, he is able to pull off sweeps, with the proper teammates, his checks and counters can be eliminated and pave the way from him to come in late game. I run him with Hippowdon who takes care of a lot of physical threats, sets up rocks, and is able to set up sand which improved Tyrantrums special defense for easier set up and Rotom-W to handle bulky grounds and burn threats like Scizor. Really wish they would release Rock Head since atm, hes sweep is always cut short by that massive recoil. Since he has so many weaknesses, I run him along side other sweepers, my choice being Mega Lucario as he cant always sweep, in which case I use him to wall break and pave the way for my second sweeper.
What pokemon, would you say, have enough power to hit through anything with with a little bulk without a boost?
140 attack puts Archeops tied with Rhyperior at 8th highest attack stat. You seem to be suggesting that this is underwhelming.
But this is about Tyrantrum right? His 121 attack puts him an inch above Blaziken in base attack. According to your logic, Blaziken's attack, then, is underwhelming.
Basically, what I'm understanding from you, is that if a pokemon doesn't use a boosting move and/or a move with at least 150 BP, they are an underwhelming sweeper.
You sound like a fan of scarf/banded outraging, and everything else seems inferior to you.
Glad Gen VI is finally in town.
I didn't say 140 is underwhelming, 121 is. I only gave examples on how even 140 isn't enough to take some cake, so 121 just seems... not that great?
STAB moves are strong, but 100 BP without STAB aren't that great (not saying it's bad), especially if they have a rather high miss chance (Stone Miss). Non STAB EQ won't KO anything from ~full health unless you got a boost or really high attack, even if a move like that is SE, unless the opponent has no defensive EVs and rather low HP and (sp)def.
I was really shocked how bulky pretty much anything can become. Did you know that in Gen 5 OU (although I'm kinda thinking no Uber would be able to as well) it seemed that Rampardos (max atk +nature Choice Banded Head Smash) and Electivire (same with CB and Wild Charge) were the only things that could OHKO a fully defensive Politoed 100% of the time? (not counting crits and any additional boost) [ talking about the physical side ] Not even max attack choice banded Kyurem-B is getting the OHKO 100% of the time. (Edit: actually, this isn't counting Explosion or Selfdestruct, who could also OHKO at +1 (normal gem/choice band), and depending on the user...)
With that in mind, you need to be really strong to fulfill a sweeper role, or you just get hit back hard when they survive your attacks. Even with a +1 Head Smash won't be OHKOing everything it's neutral to. Anything defensive can stop you.
Tyrantrum with its Rock type can't take all attacks coming back at it, and with its bad special defensive it needs to watch out for special attackers, Thunder Wave, Burns or anything like that.
I didn't say 121 base attack is bad, but it just isn't that great. (I feel like I'm saying this pretty often now...)
And no, I really don't like Choice items, because I hate being locked into something and not being able to switch moves. I'm also no DM/Outrage spammer.
Though I am using Archeops on almost every team of mine and even it can't get everything KOd with its 140 base attack, so that has to mean something, right?
Like I said, with Head Smash it'll definitely be really strong, but any other move won't be that strong, which means you have to watch out for things that will survive and hit you back. (good thing it has good defense, though)
You'll often have to switch out or you get KO'd so setting up a DD every time can be difficult, that's why I said that it's probably easier to use with a choice item as a hit and run Pokemon.
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Luigi Player, I'm not certain Tyrantrum will make OU, in fact I doubt it, but I still think you are fiercely underestimating it.
Besides which 100 bp moves are pretty great. It doesn't get much better before drawbacks kicking in; sure you've got your 110bp special moves but after that its mostly stat droppers, recoil and hyper beams. Not that these are bad either of course (well, Hyper Beams are) but you can't seriously sit there and tell me that coverage moves with 97-100 bp and no significant drawbacks are somehow unappealing, especially when many mons rely on the 90bp beams and some even use the punches for coverage.
(custom is Rock/Electric Type with 121 base atk - the electric type is to simulate strong jaw)
+1 252 Atk Life Orb (custom) Thunder Fang vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Politoed: 343-406 (89.32 - 105.72%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock (31.25% chance without)
+1 252 Atk Life Orb (custom) Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Politoed: 391-461 (101.82 - 120.05%) -- guaranteed OHKO
That's a potential (or better) OHKO with both Strong Jaw and Head Smash.
Defensive Politoed doesn't OHKO back either. TTrum obviously can't just switch in and set up taking whatever gets thrown at him, of course, but the point is he hits hard once he gets going.
+1 252 Atk Life Orb (custom) Head Smash vs. 224 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 257-304 (78.59 - 92.96%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Skarmory! That's like the physical wall, and he has a shot at OHKOing it!
I don't think you really understand just how strong Head Smash is.
Your other criticisms - his weakness to priority, his poor defensive capabilities which would make set-up difficult; these are valid points. But your insistence that he is somehow underwhelmingly powerful is just... inaccurate. I just can't see how you can look at something with over 120 Base Attack, access to a boosting move and your choice of 97bp+ coverage OR 150bp STAB and think "yeah, no, that's too weak sorry".
...Stone Edge is STAB though, so I'm not sure what you're trying to say here.
Besides which 100 bp moves are pretty great. It doesn't get much better before drawbacks kicking in; sure you've got your 110bp special moves but after that its mostly stat droppers, recoil and hyper beams. Not that these are bad either of course (well, Hyper Beams are) but you can't seriously sit there and tell me that coverage moves with 97-100 bp and no significant drawbacks are somehow unappealing, especially when many mons rely on the 90bp beams and some even use the punches for coverage.
Yeah, it's a shame Tyrantrum isn't likely to run any boosting moves.
Well, let's see how Jolly Tyrantrum goes after a dance.
(custom is Rock/Electric Type with 121 base atk - the electric type is to simulate strong jaw)
+1 252 Atk Life Orb (custom) Thunder Fang vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Politoed: 343-406 (89.32 - 105.72%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock (31.25% chance without)
+1 252 Atk Life Orb (custom) Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Politoed: 391-461 (101.82 - 120.05%) -- guaranteed OHKO
That's a potential (or better) OHKO with both Strong Jaw and Head Smash.
Defensive Politoed doesn't OHKO back either. TTrum obviously can't just switch in and set up taking whatever gets thrown at him, of course, but the point is he hits hard once he gets going.
See above calculation. Or how about this one?
+1 252 Atk Life Orb (custom) Head Smash vs. 224 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 257-304 (78.59 - 92.96%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Skarmory! That's like the physical wall, and he has a shot at OHKOing it!
I don't think you really understand just how strong Head Smash is.
For what its worth, Adamant Archeops' Stone Edges only hit with ~82% of the power of Jolly Tyrantrum's Head Smashes.
Your other criticisms - his weakness to priority, his poor defensive capabilities which would make set-up difficult; these are valid points. But your insistence that he is somehow underwhelmingly powerful is just... inaccurate. I just can't see how you can look at something with over 120 Base Attack, access to a boosting move and your choice of 97bp+ coverage OR 150bp STAB and think "yeah, no, that's too weak sorry".
Yes, STAB SE is quite strong (too bad it kinda sucks because misses are so fatal), but the Fangs are not (strong enough). Don't get me wrong: coverage moves are nice, the point is that Pokemon will survive them and hit you back. Not saying this isn't the case for other Pokemon, but if you're a setup sweeper you'll likely take damage setting up and you can't take anything else after that, which is a problem.
Like I said above.. Life Orb, really? Have fun doing 1-2 attacks and then die from recoil, unless you force something out while setting up (and after getting a free switchin).
Did you even read what I wrote? I clearly said numerous times that Head Smash is obviously powerful, but that does not change his base stat, which could be better.
I did not say that his Head Smash is really weak or anything like that. Or that he is underwhelmingly weak even after a boost. I said that his base attack stat is a little underwhelming.
It is true though, that even with a +1 attack boost the elemental Fangs won't be good enough to OHKO stuff if they're somewhat defensive. Even if they're SE. If we're talking about any Pokemon who isn't defensive, sure, they'll probably do enough damage, but things who are made to survive some hits, and especially walls, will be able to stop you (unless they flinch...). And thinking logically, those will be the things being thrown in to you. Not to mention that if you do run Strong Jaw, the loss of Head Smashs power will definitely show itself (since it's neutrally stronger than a SE Fang even with Strong Jaw).
Like I already said. Pokemon who got STAB on any Fang do not run them. Why? Because they are too weak. Even with STAB. Thunder Fang from Luxray? Who is scared from it, really? Even with its 120 base attack stat it should not be anything to be worried about, unless you're Gyarados...
Your comparison with even an Adamant Archeops Stone Edge just shows you just how weak a Jolly Tyrantrum Stone Edge would be. Without a DD or a Choice Band it wouldn't do nearly enough damage. Though I guess if you put on another attack boosting item like a Life Orb it will get stronger, but at a big cost...
Sorry but your opinions are invalidated by math.
Who exactly can't Tyrantrum OHKO, with or without SR with his offensive moveset? The Strong Jaw Fangs aren't great, but they give valuable OHKOs against things that resist Head Smash, like Forretress & Landorus-T.
If anything, Tyrantrum's biggest flaw is his mediocre defensive typing, which leaves him weak to Bullet & Mach Punch as part of it. His offenses aren't average or underwhelming, they're great in fact.
Who exactly can't Tyrantrum OHKO, with or without SR with his offensive moveset? The Strong Jaw Fangs aren't great, but they give valuable OHKOs against things that resist Head Smash, like Forretress & Landorus-T.
If anything, Tyrantrum's biggest flaw is his mediocre defensive typing, which leaves him weak to Bullet & Mach Punch as part of it. His offenses aren't average or underwhelming, they're great in fact.
I think a lot of people are assuming he will be running Rock Head. I know it isn't released yet but its just a matter of time. If your talking about Strong Jaw Tyrantrum, then I agree that he is underwhelming as a sweeper and should probably run Choiced sets since his sweeps will be cut short either by a check or by his own recoil. But after Rock Head is released, I do think there is sweeping potential in him. Not to mention the possibility of maybe being able to tutor him Outrage in the future. From experience in Showdown, I have had several opportunities to sweep with that have been cut short by recoil, but I can see that in these situations had I had access to Rock Head, he would have definitely finished off the game for me. As for the accuracy of Head Smash, I do agree 80 isn't the best but it isn't terrible either. Dragon Claw makes a nice reliable option when the sheer force isn't needed. However because of this, I do recommend a back up sweeper. But the fact still remains that after Rock Head, there will be potential in him.
If not Life Orb, then what?
What you wrote, and what I was responding to, was "even with a +1 Head Smash won't be OHKOing everything it's neutral to. Anything defensive can stop you." Which is clearly untrue even with his "underwhelming" attack. I mean, Ok, so that's not everything if you want to be 100% literal, but its a long, long way from "Anything defensive can stop you."
I agree that Rock Head Smash is better in most cases, but I still think you're being too dismissive of Strong Jaw's own merit. Sure, known walls probably wont go down too easily. That's why they're walls. Not a lot of other things will particularly enjoy it though, that's for sure.
Of course not! I agree! The Fangs suck as a STAB, if that's your best STAB option you're in trouble.
But that's not a fair comparison - we're not talking about STAB. Tyrantrum already gets a good STAB! That's like saying Surf must be a bad option for Hydreigon because Bubblebeam is a bad option for Blastoise, just because they have the same power. But that's not the point. We're talking coverage moves here. This isn't the equivelant of Thunder Fang on Luxray, it's the equivelant of Thunderbolt on Starmie.
Btw he surf thing is just a random example that fit numerically, I'm not actually trying to claim Hydreigon should use surf.
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