Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (B- and C+ Pokemon discussion)

[Ryolain]

Maybe it is A, but I would not say comfortably. :) The problem is, it has quite mediocre defenses (91/90/90) and the set that from this forum seems to give is viability (specs) is predictable.

(Below is a scenario with basically displays the weaknesses of Specs with Keldeo's STAB: feel free to read but if you don't want to you get the point).
Imagine I have a talonflame on the battlefield. Lets assume this Talonflame happens to not have a choice band, just assume, because choice band priority brave bird OHKOs Keldeo. Because Modes Specs Keldeo does 267.7% minimum with hydro pump, it will probably use hydro pump. The talonflame's trainer is well aware of this, so they might switch to something that is immune (Water Absorb or Storm Drain pokemon) or something that won't take much damage (Dragonite, Trevenant). These Pokemon can take advantage of a switch: the former with Dragon Dance or the latter with (sub)seed, or can outright go for a kill (especially in trevenant's case). Same situation with its fighting stab, ghost pokemon are certainly immune.

Also, its speed is impressive, but dwarfed by most choice scarf pokemon. Even worse is that heliolisk has 1 more point of speed, dry skin, and OHKOs with Thunderbolt. I would nominate Keldeo for B+ or A- rank, personally.

EDIT: Somebody said that Specs Keldeo 2HKOs Dragonite with SR. That's mostly wrong. With Multiscale, hydro pump does 26.8% max, stealth rock does 25%, and without multi scale hydro pump does 49.5% average. Assuming Hydro Pump does max damage the first time, there is still about a 40% chance that Dragonite escapes damage! I wouldn't blame you for saying "60% chance of KO is close enough to a KO for Keldeo to 2HKO Dragonite with SR". The problem is that these results were for a 4 HP adamant Dragonite! For an actual defensive dragonite, the calcs are much different, as Keldeo cannot 2HKO with SR up. (that calculated with 252 HP, 4 Def, and + SpDef nature)

Are you seriously trying to argue that its viability is lower because prediction exists…and then wrote out a whole paragraph explaining what prediction is…

No shit most Scarfed Pokes outspeed it. Scarf Pokes outspeed almost everything that doesn't have a Scarf. Heliolisk has absolutely no business playing in OU to begin with and gets wrecked by Secret Sword, so it's far from a safe switch.

Your Dragonite calcs are also completely wrong because once SR does its 25%, that breaks Multiscale. Also absolutely no one in their right mind is running 252 HP / 252 SDef on Dragonite, I don't even know where to start with that ridiculous assertion.

 

[RP2865]

91/90/90 "mediocre defenses"

"outsped by most scarfers"

"specs keldeo in gen 6"

Somebody needs to play a bit more pokemon before commenting >.>

Way to make me an idiot, especially as I just helped you on your team >.>
Anyway, 91/90/90 defenses are mediocre in my opinion for somebody who can't switch moves. It is outspend by most scarfers. Base 108 speed means that any pokemon with base 73 speed and a scarf beats modest keldeo. I think that accounts for most scarfers. Anyway, look behind you. Almost all everybody is talking about that involves keldeo is specs. Please look before you post!

 

[zachmac]

Also, Salamence can run as Choice Scarf Moxie set. People act like fairies make it irrelevant, but let's be fair, they aren't that common yet, and two resistances aren't that many.

Way to make me an idiot, especially as I just helped you on your team >.>
Anyway, 91/90/90 defenses are mediocre in my opinion for somebody who can't switch moves. It is outspend by most scarfers. Base 108 speed means that any pokemon with base 73 speed and a scarf beats modest keldeo. I think that accounts for most scarfers. Anyway, look behind you. Almost all everybody is talking about that involves keldeo is specs. Please look before you post!

Just saying, almost all good offensive pokemon are either outsped by choice scarfers or are choice scarfed themselves.

91/90/90 defensive are really good for a pokemon with 129 special attack and 108 speed. Many offensive pokemon don't have that blessing.

 

[Tyrant laharl]

Way to make me an idiot, especially as I just helped you on your team >.>
Anyway, 91/90/90 defenses are mediocre in my opinion for somebody who can't switch moves. It is outspend by most scarfers. Base 108 speed means that any pokemon with base 73 speed and a scarf beats modest keldeo. I think that accounts for most scarfers. Anyway, look behind you. Almost all everybody is talking about that involves keldeo is specs. Please look before you post!

Switching move or not, I still fail to see how 91/90/90 defenses are mediocre. That's not really a valid argument in discussing his tiering.

 

[Colonel M]

Also, Salamence can run as Choice Scarf Moxie set. People act like fairies make it irrelevant, but let's be fair, they aren't that common yet, and two resistances aren't that many.

I don't think I have to be the first person to mention ScarfMence being awful. Neither Mixed nor Scarf were given an analysis.

See for yourself: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/salamence.3495620/

 

[xSilentDeviL]

Dragonites Defenses- 91/95/100

Keldeo Defenses- 91/90/90

We've always considered Dragonite as a bulky mon even before multiscale. Keldeo has a total of 15 less base points over all three stats. Definitly can't call that mediocre.

 

[RP2865]

Also, Salamence can run as Choice Scarf Moxie set. People act like fairies make it irrelevant, but let's be fair, they aren't that common yet, and two resistances aren't that many.
Just saying, almost all good offensive pokemon are either outsped by choice scarfers or are choice scarfed themselves.

91/90/90 defensive are really good for a pokemon with 129 special attack and 108 speed. Many offensive pokemon don't have that blessing.

Yes, I know that almost all good offensive pokemon are outspend by choice scarfers or are choice scarfed themselves. That's totally right. The difference between me and some other people is that I acknowledge when I feel I have been beaten in an argument. I am just highliting how Keldeo cannot use Choice Scarf (because of specs) and therefore suffers the vulnerability of being revenge killed. Do you see what I mean?

 

[Ryolain]

Now that everybody is quoting me and telling me how wrong I am (I'm not offended, everyone who has quoted me. I am annoyed, but it isn't your fault, guys, it's just a matter of circumstance :)), let me clarify my position. If you google "mediocre", what shows up is "of only moderate quality". I am not saying that it its defenses are "bad", or that its defenses make it a "bad" pokemon. I am just disagreeing with an A+ ranking. I think that Keldeo's defenses, given that it is extraordinarily easy to predict due to choice specs, its defenses serve it moderately well, and that it can be worn down moderately easily. I don't blame you for misinterpreting, but I am clearly not wrong. For example, Mega Venusaur takes nothing from Keldeo's moves and can either 2HKO with Leaf Storm or OHKO with Leaf Storm. Talonflame, as mentioned, can OHKO with CB Brave Bird. Garchomp can 2HKO with earthquake, Genesect can 2HKO with Thunderbolt, Scizor does a chunk with SuperPower, MegaZard Y OHKOs with SolarBeam, MegaZard X 2HKOs it with Dragon Claw, Sylveon can OHKO with max invested Hyper Voice, Breloom OHKOs with Technician Bullet Seed… the list goes on. Do you notice how a lot of top OU Pokemon, even some that aren't at the top, can OHKO or 2HKO it with ease? I think that makes it's defenses serve it moderately. Do you see what I mean?
(For those who don't want to read all of this, bolded pokemon can OHKO Keldeo, and italicized can 2HKO).

So much of this is just horribly illogical…why is MVenusaur running Leaf Storm? Why is Sylveon max invested in SpA? How are these things going to 2HKO it when it OHKOs a lot of them first?

 

[XZ2H3000]

0 SpA Expert Belt Dragonite Surf vs. 248 HP / 4 SpD Landorus-T: 187-221 (49 - 58%) -- 56.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Expert Belt Dragonite Surf vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Hippowdon: 204-242 (48.5 - 57.6%) -- 47.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Dragonite fails to even guarantee a 2HKO on Lando and Hippowdon with Surf. Salamence can actually get the KO on both even if it switches in on a Dragon Claw followed by a Hydro Pump. Lets not assume Salamence has the problem on attack slots and Dragonite doesn't, by running Surf, you lose out up to 2 of ES/EQ/Fire Punch for coverage, since DD is a given, and Roost is what makes Dragonite so easy to set-up. Dragonite is already having quite a bit of 4MSS as it is, since without ES it is even more easily easily revenged than Salamence; without EQ all Heatran walks all over you; without Fire Punch you are facing the same problem as Salamence without Fire Blast.

252+ Atk Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 244-292 (68.1 - 81.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-1 252+ Atk Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 232-276 (70 - 83.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Are you seriously thinking that Salamence is that much frailer than Zygarde? With Intimidate, Salamence can set up a DD against physical attackers equally fine, while boasting better Atk and Spe after the set-up. And let's not forget Scarf Genesect is a death sentence to any DD user that is not Salamence or Charizard X

Using Intimidate over Moxie beats the whole point of using Salamence in the first place, which is to clean late-game using the boosts obtained, even then, salamence is still outclassed by other DD users as posted 500 times before, Dragonite is bulkier and posseses the ability to realiably use Weakness Policy, MegaZardX has a better dual typing and mixed stats, immunity to burn, as well as tough claws, Zygarde is overall more bulky on BOTH spectrums, you only covered the physical side with Intimidate, which, again, beats Salamence only point of using it, and Zygarde also has STABbed EQ and E-Speed.

Also about Hydro Pump, as Colonel M said, it's scratching the bottom of the barrel, Hippowdon and Landorus-T are only 2 pokémon that the other dragons need to be taken care off, while Mence needs fairies, steel types, bulky attackers, etc. before it can safely and easily sweep, not to mention they aren't omnipresent stops that stop the dragons like say, rain would stop fire-types last gen.

Seriously, this Salamence arguing is dragging on like the Florges and Arcanine arguments before it, this really needs a stop.

 

[Ryolain]

Yes, I know that almost all good offensive pokemon are outspend by choice scarfers or are choice scarfed themselves. That's totally right. The difference between me and some other people is that I acknowledge when I feel I have been beaten in an argument. I am just highliting how Keldeo cannot use Choice Scarf (because of specs) and therefore suffers the vulnerability of being revenge killed. Do you see what I mean?

Keldeo can absolutely use a Scarf if you want, it's still got good SpA to work from and it can afford to invest in HP if it does that since it has good natural speed. It also has no problem running Life Orb or even Expert Belt. Choice Specs is not the only set Keldeo can run, and this gen it's probably one of the worse ones since Rain support is so rare. It has a great STAB combo, a great mixed set thanks to the way Secret Sword works, great speed, good SpA…it's not the suspect-worthy threat it was in BW, but saying it's bad because it can revenged just flat-out doesn't make sense.

 

[RP2865]

So much of this is just horribly illogical…why is MVenusaur running Leaf Storm? Why is Sylveon max invested in SpA? How are these things going to 2HKO it when it OHKOs a lot of them first?

Because:
1. It is running leaf storm because I specifically mentioned earlier how much it does with Giga Drain (the more common move) and I wanted to demonstrate that it COULD OHKO Keldeo.
2. Sylveon is max invested in SpA because I specifically mentioned it. Did you notice how for other Pokemon like MegaZard X, I didn't say "max invest"? I am not saying that these scenarios will happen, I am demonstrating the limits of Keldeo's defenses.
3. When you said "how are those things going to 2HKO…": Again, these scenarios are not guaranteed to happen.

Keldeo can absolutely use a Scarf if you want, it's still got good SpA to work from and it can afford to invest in HP if it does that since it has good natural speed. It also has no problem running Life Orb or even Expert Belt. Choice Specs is not the only set Keldeo can run, and this gen it's probably one of the worse ones since Rain support is so rare. It has a great STAB combo, a great mixed set thanks to the way Secret Sword works, great speed, good SpA…it's not the suspect-worthy threat it was in BW, but saying it's bad because it can revenged just flat-out doesn't make sense.

The reason I haven't mentioned scarf is because I have been following this thread and haven't seen a post about scarf keldeo or it even being viable. If you haven't seen this, it's not your fault :). Also, I am not saying it is bad. Now this is your fault. Look at these words from my post: "I am not saying that it its defenses are "bad", or that its defenses make it a "bad" pokemon. I am just disagreeing with an A+ ranking" If you think Keldeo is A+, fine, say so. If not, then why did you reply?

EDIT: Removed double post
Now that everybody is quoting me and telling me how wrong I am (I'm not offended, everyone who has quoted me. I am annoyed, but it isn't your fault, guys, it's just a matter of circumstance), let me clarify my position. If you google "mediocre", what shows up is "of only moderate quality". I am not saying that it its defenses are "bad", or that its defenses make it a "bad" pokemon. I am just disagreeing with an A+ ranking. I think that Keldeo's defenses, given that it is extraordinarily easy to predict due to choice specs, its defenses serve it moderately well, and that it can be worn down moderately easily. I don't blame you for misinterpreting, but I am clearly not wrong. For example, Mega Venusaur takes nothing from Keldeo's moves and can either 2HKO with Leaf Storm or OHKO with Leaf Storm. Talonflame, as mentioned, can OHKO with CB Brave Bird. Garchomp can 2HKO with earthquake, Genesect can 2HKO with Thunderbolt, Scizor does a chunk with SuperPower, MegaZard Y OHKOs with SolarBeam, MegaZard X 2HKOs it with Dragon Claw, Sylveon can OHKO with max invested Hyper Voice, Breloom OHKOs with Technician Bullet Seed… the list goes on. Do you notice how a lot of top OU Pokemon, even some that aren't at the top, can OHKO or 2HKO it with ease? I think that makes it's defenses serve it moderately. Do you see what I mean?
(For those who don't want to read all of this, bolded pokemon can OHKO Keldeo, and italicized can 2HKO).

 

[XZ2H3000]

Because:
1. It is running leaf storm because I specifically mentioned earlier how much it does with Giga Drain (the more common move) and I wanted to demonstrate that it COULD OHKO Keldeo.
2. Sylveon is max invested in SpA because I specifically mentioned it. Did you notice how for other Pokemon like MegaZard X, I didn't say "max invest"? I am not saying that these scenarios will happen, I am demonstrating the limits of Keldeo's defenses.
3. When you said "how are those things going to 2HKO…": Again, these scenarios are not guaranteed to happen.


The reason I haven't mentioned scarf is because I have been following this thread and haven't seen a post about scarf keldeo or it even being viable. If you haven't seen this, it's not your fault :). Also, I am not saying it is bad. Now this is your fault. Look at these words from my post: "I am not saying that it its defenses are "bad", or that its defenses make it a "bad" pokemon. I am just disagreeing with an A+ ranking" If you think Keldeo is A+, fine, say so. If not, then why did you reply?

Well of course pokémon with good offenses fully invested and high BP STABbed attack with modifiers such as life orb hitting super-effectively are going to OHKO

 

[Ryolain]

Well of course pokémon with good offenses fully invested and high BP STABbed attack with modifiers such as life orb hitting super-effectively are going to OHKO

Exactly. RP2865, you keep coming up with all these scenarios that prove absolutely nothing. Let's talk about a realistically played OU match, not some theorymon'd scenario designed specifically to prove your point but would never actually occur or repeatedly showing calcs against a counter. No duh a counter beats the thing it's supposed to counter. That's why it's a counter.

Re-focus on realistic match conditions and looking at the tier as whole, then we can really discuss viability as it pertains to how the game is played. Keldeo still represents a huge offensive threat that needs pretty much no support to function properly. Its role has changed from last gen since it's no longer a Hydro Pump nuke, but there are few things that safely switch in on it and it's got great overall stats on top of a strong movepool.

 

[blitzlefan]

Now that everybody is quoting me and telling me how wrong I am (I'm not offended, everyone who has quoted me. I am annoyed, but it isn't your fault, guys, it's just a matter of circumstance :)), let me clarify my position. If you google "mediocre", what shows up is "of only moderate quality". I am not saying that it its defenses are "bad", or that its defenses make it a "bad" pokemon. I am just disagreeing with an A+ ranking. I think that Keldeo's defenses, given that it is extraordinarily easy to predict due to choice specs, its defenses serve it moderately well, and that it can be worn down moderately easily. I don't blame you for misinterpreting, but I am clearly not wrong. For example, Mega Venusaur takes nothing from Keldeo's moves and can either 2HKO with Leaf Storm or OHKO with Leaf Storm. Talonflame, as mentioned, can OHKO with CB Brave Bird. Garchomp can 2HKO with earthquake, Genesect can 2HKO with Thunderbolt, Scizor does a chunk with SuperPower, MegaZard Y OHKOs with SolarBeam, MegaZard X 2HKOs it with Dragon Claw, Sylveon can OHKO with max invested Hyper Voice, Breloom OHKOs with Technician Bullet Seed… the list goes on. Do you notice how a lot of top OU Pokemon, even some that aren't at the top, can OHKO or 2HKO it with ease? I think that makes it's defenses serve it moderately. Do you see what I mean?
(For those who don't want to read all of this, bolded pokemon can OHKO Keldeo, and italicized can 2HKO).

First off, I hope I don't come off as rude, but please don't triple post. There's an edit button for a reason, and posting multiple times clutters up the thread. It's possible to respond to multiple quotes in one post. I like viability ranking threads (I'm gonna try to get more into OU this generation) and people double posting or posting one-liners in this thread is fairly obnoxious. If your post doesn't have significant content, then don't post it or put in the effort and add some content. Moving on, hopefully these calculations show you just how spammable Keldeo's moves are, seeing as Keldeo outspeeds three of your checks and Hydro Pump can potentially OHKO each of them. Regarding Gensect, locking itself into Thunderbolt is not ideal, as it's weak and easy to take advantage of. Furthermore, Thunderbolt only 2HKOs, and Keldeo OHKOs in return.

Hide

252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Icy Wind vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Breloom: 272-320 (103.81 - 122.13%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Breloom: 249-294 (95.03 - 112.21%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Breloom: 220-260 (83.96 - 99.23%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Icy Wind vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 408-484 (113.96 - 135.19%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 334-394 (93.29 - 110.05%) -- 93.75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Scizor: 348-411 (101.45 - 119.82%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Scizor: 207-244 (60.34 - 71.13%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Genesect: 306-360 (108.12 - 127.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Because:
1. It is running leaf storm because I specifically mentioned earlier how much it does with Giga Drain (the more common move) and I wanted to demonstrate that it COULD OHKO Keldeo.
2. Sylveon is max invested in SpA because I specifically mentioned it. Did you notice how for other Pokemon like MegaZard X, I didn't say "max invest"? I am not saying that these scenarios will happen, I am demonstrating the limits of Keldeo's defenses.
3. When you said "how are those things going to 2HKO…": Again, these scenarios are not guaranteed to happen.
The reason I haven't mentioned scarf is because I have been following this thread and haven't seen a post about scarf keldeo or it even being viable. If you haven't seen this, it's not your fault :). Also, I am not saying it is bad. Now this is your fault. Look at these words from my post: "I am not saying that it its defenses are "bad", or that its defenses make it a "bad" pokemon. I am just disagreeing with an A+ ranking" If you think Keldeo is A+, fine, say so. If not, then why did you reply?

Honestly, Venusaur is never running Leaf Storm, Sylveon rarely / never runs max investment in special attack, and if scenarios are not "guaranteed" or even likely to happen, then don't bring them up. Hell, I could say that Specs Keldeo under rain with +6 Baton Pass support from Celebi could easily decimate every Pokemon you brought up, but that would be stupid, seeing as there's no chance that'll actually happen. Personally, I don't agree with an A+ ranking either, but I don't believe that the improbable scenarios you brought up demonstrate the point you're trying to convey at all - I'd even argue that what you've brought up hurts your argument. And people can reply even if they agree with your viewpoint, as they are pointing out that arguments in your post are wrong.

 

[XZ2H3000]

I have to go, but consider these.
1. Challenge accepted. I did give one, but more are on the way!
2. DO you think Keldeo is A+?

I think you didn't specifically get what he was talking about, right?

 

[Salemance]

Call me crazy, but I would like to nominate Metagross in B- rank.

The steel nerf is often considered to be what broke the camels back when it comes to using Metagross in OU. No longer being able to take a hit from the likes oh Hydreigon and Gengar, Metagross could very well get pummeled upon by most special attacking pokemon. Then you have the ability to be hit by Knock Off, and base 130 defense may not begin to hold it for long.

So why do I consider Metagross even ranked at all?

I have two reasons, one which is what is considered one of his better sets, the Assault Vest set.

With this item, Metagross can attempt to replicate its ability to take damage like it could before the nerf. Observe:

B/W 2 Metagame

252+ SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Dark Pulse vs. 164 HP / 0 SpD Metagross: 199-235 (58.1 - 68.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

X/Y

252+ SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Dark Pulse vs. 164 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Metagross: 265-315 (77.4 - 92.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Being able to live a STAB Special attack from one of the more powerful dark types is certainly something to admire. NOTE this is not even EV'ed to the standard Assault Vest set, it is just using the same HP from the standard Choice Band set from B/W 2. With the standard Assault Vest set, you get something more akin to:

252+ SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Dark Pulse vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Assault Vest Metagross: 265-312 (73 - 85.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Results are marginally better, but as demonstrated by any poke, every little bit counts. Even Lando-I, with its sheer forcing ability, can not guarantee a OHKO.

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Assault Vest Metagross: 330-390 (90.9 - 107.4%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO

Than there are some who would normally use special attacking coverage moves to attack Meta, like say Salamence ironically.

4 SpA Life Orb Salamence Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Assault Vest Metagross: 161-192 (44.3 - 52.8%) -- 25% chance to 2HKO

Even with this investment, Metagross is still capable of taking physical hits without much worry as it usually is always carrying appropriate coverage to take out said threat.

252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Metagross: 260-308 (71.6 - 84.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Metagross: 288-338 (79.3 - 93.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Infernape Flare Blitz vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Metagross: 270-318 (74.3 - 87.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Metagross fills the role of bulky attacker to a T. Is this Metagross' only viable set? Depends who you ask, but according to the analysis it is, so I will refrain from commenting on other sets.

Does Metagross still have the ability to rank in OU? Yes. Is it as good as generations past? No, but it still does its job admirably, thus I think somewhat deserving of a B- Ranking.

 

[TrippingRocks]

Metagross was already sinking as an OU pokemon last generation. This generation pretty much just sealed his fate. He gains two new weaknesses and a whole lot more pokemon to exploit those weaknesses. In turn, the only thing Metagross has really gained is that his steel STAB is super effective against fairies. He may have good bulk, but just having good bulk does not make for a tank. He needs some sort of form of recovery (which he doesn't really have) or a typing that gives him key resistances, which he also doesn't really have. If he's going to get a ranking, the highest I see him is at C.

 

[DiscoDucky]

Metagross was already sinking as an OU pokemon last generation. This generation pretty much just sealed his fate. He gains two new weaknesses and a whole lot more pokemon to exploit those weaknesses. In turn, the only thing Metagross has really gained is that his steel STAB is super effective against fairies. He may have good bulk, but just having good bulk does not make for a tank. He needs some sort of form of recovery (which he doesn't really have) or a typing that gives him key resistances, which he also doesn't really have. If he's going to get a ranking, the highest I see him is at C.

Not even C-worthy. I'd probably see it as a D along with Malomar.

D-Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who have a small niche in the current OU metagame, but have very noticable flaws that make them more trouble then their worth the majority of the time.

Metagross is basically a jack-of-all-trades, master of none. His attack is high, but relatively low BP STABs put it off the map, even more so after the Meteor Mash nerf. His defense is also high, but can be muscled past with new weaknesses and a more offensive metagame. The only Support move that stands out is Stealth Rock.

Basically, his small niche in this metagame is being able to perform as a Bulky Offensive Hazard Setter with an immunity to stat drops and access to Bullet Punch, not much else. Lack of strong STABs and new weaknesses only allows it to pull off this strategy not as well as others that do the same thing in this meta, such as Excadrill (not exactly bulky but kind of down the same vein).

EDIT: Did not see that AV Metagross post. That response did give some great points about AV Metagross, so I would bump it up to C or even C- (if that's remotely possible). The only problem I see with AV Metagross is its Steel STAB. Steel is still not a very good offensive STAB, but it does make up for it with its Steel typing.

 

[Primary]

B-Tier? Please.

Keldeo was the best scarfer in Gen V and although it took a bit of a hit in Gen VI, Keldeo is still an amazing Pokemon. Base 129 Special Attack is definitely above average and while Base 108 Speed is not the godly tier it was in Gen V, it's still fast enough to outspeed many non-scarfed Pokemon.
Life Orb Keldeo is a premier all out Attacking set that has more than enough capability to punch holes into teams. LO Keldeo, in my opinion, is probably its best set as Choiced variants have some major flaws. Take a look at the amount of damage Life Orb Keldeo is capable of doing to defensively oriented Pokemon.
[BTW, I'm using a LO Keldeo with Hydro Pump, Secret Sword, Hidden Power Bug and Icy Wind. That's the standard movepool if I remember correctly]

• 252 SpA Life Orb Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 655-772 (91.7 - 108.1%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
• 252 SpA Life Orb Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 478-564 (67.8 - 80.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
• 252 SpA Life Orb Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 208+ Def Ferrothorn: 221-265 (62.7 - 75.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
• 252 SpA Life Orb Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Landorus-T: 556-658 (145.5 - 172.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
• 252 SpA Life Orb Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Goodra: 242-285 (63 - 74.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
• 252 SpA Life Orb Keldeo Hidden Power Bug vs. 220 HP / 252+ SpD Celebi: 244-291 (61.6 - 73.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
• 252 SpA Life Orb Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Skarmory: 312-368 (93.4 - 110.1%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
• 252 SpA Life Orb Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Sylveon: 187-220 (47.4 - 55.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

The amount of 2HKOs is clear evidence that Life Orb Keldeo is truly a monster to stop. Once Life Orb Keldeo has whittled down these Defensive Pokemon, Life Orb Keldeo sets up a sweeping opportunity for many sweepers.

Now Choice Scarf and Choice Specs are less popular because once Keldeo locks itself into a move there are just too many Pokemon that love switching in on either Hydro Pump or Secret Sword for set-up. Also keep in mind that Scarfed Keldeo has lost a lot of popularity due to the Rain Nerf. Without the ability to spam Rain-Boosted Hydro Pumps, it's a little difficult to be the threatening Scarfer it was in Gen V. Nevertheless, Scarfed Keldeo is still an extremely effective cleaner for any team.

*****

Btw, anybody have any thoughts on my proposal for Mega Charizard Y for A+ Rank?

 

[Kawaii Kyouko]

I think that Keldeo's defenses, given that it is extraordinarily easy to predict due to choice specs, its defenses serve it moderately well, and that it can be worn down moderately easily.

This doesn't only go for you, RP, as many others have used such an argument... but I really fail to see how the bolded part is an issue. Sure, you'll have an easier time knowing what he'll do... So what? Charizard Y? Oh, he'll Fire Blast something... what to pick as sacrifice this time?

Predictability doesn't make something bad. Please don't use this as an argument, unless it's something for Specs Weedle. Most Pokemon are predictable once you know the set, anyways. And no, you don't Auto-Know that Keldeo is Specs (for all you know he could be Scarf/SubCM).

 

[V_Cliff]

Call me crazy, but I would like to nominate Metagross in B- rank.

Interesting suggestion,especially because everyone thinks that Metagross is totally unusable.
The quad core computer is definitely one of the better Assault Vest users and exept for SR and Agility, it doesnt have any notable non attacking moves so the use of AV comes without real disadvantages.
Other wise new fairy type is somewhat good for him,he can easily handles most fairys and force them out and as you have already shown, he can manage some offensive threats in a 1v1.
The rain nerf also plays into his hands, absurdly powerful rain boosted Scalds, Surf and Hydro Pump and Jellicent somwhat reduced Meatgross potential last Gen.

On the other hand the Steel nerf and the increasing usage of dark type attacks like Knock off and Dark Pulse limits it ability do switch into cerain special attackers.And with the Defog buff and the new Fairy resistance, fire types are very common in the current Meta,not to forget that Talonflame and CharX/Y are each one of the best Cleaner/Sweeper/Wallbreaker that are available.And Rotom-W is also ,especially physical defensive ones, are not very appreciated.

He still has a solid offensive movepool that allows hit usual switch ins pretty pretty hard , good mixed bulk,priority and a respectable attack stat.And his one of the best answers for Fairys

I would say C-Rank.

 

[rachet67]

This doesn't only go for you, RP, as many others have used such an argument... but I really fail to see how the bolded part is an issue. Sure, you'll have an easier time knowing what he'll do... So what? Charizard Y? Oh, he'll Fire Blast something... what to pick as sacrifice this time?

Predictability doesn't make something bad. Please don't use this as an argument, unless it's something for Specs Weedle. Most Pokemon are predictable once you know the set, anyways. And no, you don't Auto-Know that Keldeo is Specs (for all you know he could be Scarf/SubCM).

I agree that this isn't that good of an argument. Specs keldeo is so powerful that knowing its most popular set isn't really going to help you that much.

Also want to take the time to state that although mega venesaur can reliably switch into Keldeo at full health, in a battle you can't always assume its at full health. Once its worn down a little, specs keldeo can overwhelm it with hydro pump.

Both examples use special defensive bold venesaur

252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Mega Venusaur: 93-110 (25.5 - 30.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Mega Venusaur: 102-121 (28 - 33.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

So you have to take a little less than half health (or a little more than a third if w/ stealth rock) before hand to 2HKO. Doesn't really say that Venesaur isn't a great counter, but shows that keldeo can get around it with some team support.

 

[jc104]

Not sure if this is really the place to say this, but running a 252 SpD Bold Venusaur just wastes EVs. Use the nature to boost the higher stat, and if necessary move some EVs over to the other stat to compensate.

Bearing in mind hydro pump's poor accuracy, and that you'd have to be mad to run modest keldeo, I really don't think keldeo is going to be busting through venusaur in most games. Being hard countered by venusaur is far from unique to keldeo, and venusaur isn't actually as common as you'd think because it has to compete with other megas.

 

[rachet67]

Not sure if this is really the place to say this, but running a 252 SpD Bold Venusaur just wastes EVs. Use the nature to boost the higher stat, and if necessary move some EVs over to the other stat to compensate.

Bearing in mind hydro pump's poor accuracy, and that you'd have to be mad to run modest keldeo, I really don't think keldeo is going to be busting through venusaur in most games. Being hard countered by venusaur is far from unique to keldeo, and venusaur isn't actually as common as you'd think because it has to compete with other megas.

Sorry, just took the Venesaur spread from its OU discussion thread. And you don't have to run modest, as timid does at least 25.5%. I agree that keldeo more than often won't be the one breaking through venesaur, just that it has the capabilities (unlike what it could do to jellicent last gen) to eventually break though with team support.

 

[Ryolain]

Those Keldeo calcs also don't factor in the HP MVenusaur will be recovering with Giga Drain/Leech Seed/Synthesis. Keldeo has absolutely no business going up against MVenusaur, plain and simple, but neither do half the other sweepers in OU. That's why MVenusaur is an S-ranked defensive threat.

A-Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame, but require some support or have some flaws that prevents them from doing this consistently. Supporting Pokemon in this rank may give opponents free turns or cannot create free turns easily themselves, but can still do their job most of the time

Being walled by MVenusaur does not in any way disqualify Keldeo from fitting that description. As already pointed out, he can OHKO or 2HKO most of the other walls in the tier, which makes him perfect for A-Rank.