jus
Banned deucer.
why would we do that dudemmeta is def too strong but ladder would be funny with it during the sus so should drop it for 2 weeks
why would we do that dudemmeta is def too strong but ladder would be funny with it during the sus so should drop it for 2 weeks
I mean it would def get rebanned but it would shut up all the mmeta hopefuls lolwhy would we do that dude
that's Just losing time. mgross is broken, deal With itI mean it would def get rebanned but it would shut up all the mmeta hopefuls lol
most recent test was also a very useful use of time rightthat's Just losing time. mgross is broken, deal With it
yes actually. RM had been banned for most of the generation and never really got a truly fair shake especially as the tier changed over time. It was a good idea to test it and put theories about it being balanced or not to rest. Meta meanwhile has historically been too good for the tier, and only got better this gen with amazing new movepool addition while gaining almost nothing as checks outside like Dondozo (stall exclusive) and maybe Ting-Lu. And the latter has limited longevity and just would get overwhelmed by it long term.most recent test was also a very useful use of time right
bulk, High BP priority, good combo of stab, And tera, And Dragonium, Or traBanning Ogerpon I can understand but banning Raging Bolt?
why?
just run molt or zap and scout to see if its stone edge fr and just run pex for the idbp set ngl or skeledirge both workdid any of yall not read my post dawg i spent like 20 mins composing that
what the fuck are these takes. bolt, still on mmeta(??), zama, oger. bro. while some of these mons have issues w/ the ladder i feel like they are managable. The only take i see being somewhat relevant is idbp zama,; bolt is just , ogerpon is actually interesting bc while power level is very high it can get walled by a rlly bulky grass type such as ferro or even tangrowth, also can be outsped relatively easily, while it does have respectful bulk theres things that stop it from being overcentralizing; we all thought is was omega broken but honestly there is counterplay. zama is a beast rn LOL idbp sets, band, 4a boots, fuck this mon whenever i play against it it feels like theres a nearing pressure collapse that will suck me and my family down a time-transcending black hole
Dirge is B- on the viability rankings and Moltres C+, and both are pretty hard to fit on a team. While Zapdos and Pex are easier to fit on teams(A-), they also have to check the multitude of threats in the tier, meaning over the course of a game they will get chipped heavily and when Zamazenta comes in they might not have the HP/recovery left to wall Zamazenta, especially since it can Tera to avoid Toxics/Hurricanes. Furthermore, a lot of teams also just don't have Pex/Zapdos, as they are 43rd and 25th in usage, respectively.just run molt or zap and scout to see if its stone edge fr and just run pex for the idbp set ngl or skeledirge both work
The opinions of some of the best players in the tier, with community input, aren't a good measurement for determing a mon's viability?viability rankings dont determine if something is good or not, its just the opinion of different players
Let's say your check is Toxapex. A safe check on paper, but what happens if your opponent pairs Zamazenta with Future Sight from Slowking-Galar? Suddenly, your supposed safe check cannot check Zamazenta because it gets blown up by the Future Sight.if i see my opponent has a zamazenta it would be pretty easy to preserve the mon that beats it thats just common sense
Pretty hard, considering both offer free turns to the arguably best mon in the tier, Gliscor, as well as failing to check one of the most threatening physical attackers of the tier, Ogerpon-Wellspring. These mons aren't even safe checks to Zamazenta anyways: Tera Fire farms both of them.I would also like to know how its hard to fit dirge and moltres on a team??
What defensive counterplay is there? The only bulky grass that's actually consistent as a Oger check is Ferrothorn, Tangrowth is a very fake check as it doesn't do nearly enough damage. And even Ferro is potentially vulnerable to Encore+SD, as if Oger comes in on leech seed it can be locked into it and used as set up.ogerpon is actually interesting bc while power level is very high it can get walled by a rlly bulky grass type such as ferro or even tangrowth, also can be outsped relatively easily, while it does have respectful bulk theres things that stop it from being overcentralizing; we all thought is was omega broken but honestly there is counterplay.
The VR exists as a result of both the input of the overall community as well as the experience of good players who work to make a resource available to everyone that gives a general idea of what is and isn't as viable (or viable at all), and while it's not infallible and prone to miss things because things can go undiscovered or be underrated, it's still a good place to go for information. Dondozo walls Zama but don is restricted to stall teams. Clefable gets slammed by Heavy Slam variants, and Moltres loses to sets with Stone Edge (particularly getting lured and ruined by Rockium Z sets).viability rankings dont determine if something is good or not, its just the opinion of different players and if i see my opponent has a zamazenta it would be pretty easy to preserve the mon that beats it thats just common sense plus pex gets regenerator and yes dondo also walls it rlly hard same with clefable if they are running crunch and moltres just flat out beats it. It shouldnt be susd nor should it be considered broken, I would also like to know how its hard to fit dirge and moltres on a team?? I find that a very subjective claim which can differ how different players like to make their teams
Mola is B+ so that tanks your point just by way of showing you didn't even check the VR. Half the of the players running the BR are overrated? And how are you gonna make that claim. What's that based on? Or is it just a you problem.i believe no to a certain extent, these "best players" have alo in b- because "its too passive" lmfao and then again half of the players running vr are overrated asf and mediocre so no i dont believe the mons viability should be determined from the opinion of a group lol
So you'll have counterplay not just to Zama but Zama+FS? If FS goes up, you're much more pinned in trying to check Zama? Also who said anything about IDBP+future sight? Zama has multiple sets and those do pair with FS, which will limit your ability to switch around it. Also your Bisharp example is bad and super disingenuous.ok so now you're pressuposing many things and going into these "what if" situations with every presupposition that you're supposing i can suppose a counter, when you say "well i can just have x pokemon on my team to force out y pokemon" you're applying an advantageous position for yourself. There are different counter measures within a battle i would be able to use against a slowking g using future sight, and i was using pex as an example as a wall for idbp set by the time you get one iron defense up the future sight is landing which makes it extremely easy for me to just switch out and even gain hp back via regenerator and haze not to mention you're presupposing i wouldn't have counter measures on said team already. you cant just give yourself a super advantageous position in this what if battle to try and prove a mon is broken like if i were to say bisharp is broken and use my evidence being "well if im plus 6 what is stopping me" like no thats not how it works lol you cant just pressupose i wouldnt have a counter on that team or that you would have a slowking to begin with and plus future sight wouldnt affect the idbp set at all hence this argument should be dismissed
They're not just hypotheticals. They're common gameplay examples that happen, they're scenarios you should be prepared for which is why Firewizard brought them up.once again i dont care about these hypotheticals you're proposing because they're irrelevant like this argument is similar to how a 4 year old would treat his favourite lego character you cant just make up these hypotheticals in your head you're making it extremely situational like "what if zamazentas team mates just beat x mon" going by that logic its ambiguous whether or not my teamates would beat zamas teammates and should be dismissed lol
It isn't that it's good on stall. It's that it's only really good on stall. Dozo is a terrible momentum sink and has horrid longevity with a lack of reliable recovery, being forced to rely on rest which is very abusable and only really something that can be covered for efficiently on stall. On balance it's just a poor choice over good bulky waters like Pex and Mola, who bring more to those teams either with pivoting or the ability to spread status.ok so just because dondozo is good on stall doesnt mean its restricted to it lol u can run dozo on balance and the team can still be good if you run heavy slam on zam for clefable you just get walled by literally every single ghost type in the game and makes the mon useless, idbp never runs stone edge lmfao nor does it run z and if you do you lose out on so much coverage and makes the mon even worse and rockium z??? idk if you know but im arguing against idbp zama which would lose out on its recovery running z and lose out on its coverage plus nobody runs that on idbp sets or in general rockium z isnt even in the top 4 most used items with zamazenta and is sub 2 percent usage lmfao iron valiant also rarely runs knock off and is walled by skeledirge gliscor also risks its recovery switching into skeledirge because of wisp and you literally just contradicted yourself first you say that dirge and molt being difficult to fit isnt subjective then literally admitted it was appealing to PERSONAL EXPERIENCE when that literally is the definition of subjective lol and im gonna avoid posting about council because my last post got edited for talking about it
Will do. Sorry about that.Gonna formally request that we stop this back and forth here, since it's really not leading to anything productive and we're just gonna end up insulting each other anyways.
Well uh I basically build balance almost exclusively so I can probably answer this question. So basically recently I’ve been really into mega latias; twave sets are a good way to slow it down. Ferrothorn is…. Ok into encore sets but for sure isn’t walling it, even if it does carry encore. Another way I’ve usually checked wellspring to an extent is slapping fly z torn + pivot + speed control to pressure it, as it’s almost impossible to check defensively. Those are my main ways, but there are some other options as well. Sometimes I’ll run defog kart just for a good matchup into wellspring and at other points I’ll use a physdef oriented pex to haze away its boosts and have a semi shot at beating it. It’s even become so restricting to the point where my best option into it is my own waterpon + a Tera dragon mon like idk Corv or even Lando (if I’m running Tera dragon Lando for waterpon you know something’s bad).Will do. Sorry about that.
Well to get on something more productive, what are everyone's thoughts on Ogerpon Wellspring at the moment? Feels like the most potent breaker of bulky teams right now and I'm finding it rather difficult to really account for when building those teams, given its flexibility and rather wide movepool. I think at worst it's one of the best mons in the tier and brings a unique offense while also having rather remarkable defensive utility thanks to its ability. For those of you building balance, what are your go to Wellspring checks?
So I tried using a team with a six-mon core of Unaware COUNTER Clef (SD) + Lando-T (intimidate) + Rotom (water sponge) + Ferrothorn (punish whip into rotom + type coverage) to live hits, and use Dragon Slowking-G as emergency, even with TTar-M to pressure its main teammates that help beat its checks, YET I still haven't been able to check it. This team already struggles with some other threats (doesn't crumble to them but doesn't really beat them either, same with wellsprint) not including ogerpon-w, so being able to check oger must make a team highly susceptible to other mons.Will do. Sorry about that.
Well to get on something more productive, what are everyone's thoughts on Ogerpon Wellspring at the moment? Feels like the most potent breaker of bulky teams right now and I'm finding it rather difficult to really account for when building those teams, given its flexibility and rather wide movepool. I think at worst it's one of the best mons in the tier and brings a unique offense while also having rather remarkable defensive utility thanks to its ability. For those of you building balance, what are your go to Wellspring checks?
Tbf, your team puts pretty much zero offensive pressure on it and is completely unable to revenge-kill it, which is clearly going to result in a mon that learns SD+ Encore/taunt running you over.So I tried using a team with a six-mon core of Unaware COUNTER Clef (SD) + Lando-T (intimidate) + Rotom (water sponge) + Ferrothorn (punish whip into rotom + type coverage) to live hits, and use Dragon Slowking-G as emergency, even with TTar-M to pressure its main teammates that help beat its checks, YET I still haven't been able to check it. This team already struggles with some other threats (doesn't crumble to them but doesn't really beat them either, same with wellsprint) not including ogerpon-w, so being able to check oger must make a team highly susceptible to other mons.
Please suspect test it.
I agree it needs a suspect, however your team really puts zero pressure on it and is a bit slow you need to put offensive pressure to beat it, you really don't beat a pokemon like waterpon in the way you seem to be trying to.So I tried using a team with a six-mon core of Unaware COUNTER Clef (SD) + Lando-T (intimidate) + Rotom (water sponge) + Ferrothorn (punish whip into rotom + type coverage) to live hits, and use Dragon Slowking-G as emergency, even with TTar-M to pressure its main teammates that help beat its checks, YET I still haven't been able to check it. This team already struggles with some other threats (doesn't crumble to them but doesn't really beat them either, same with wellsprint) not including ogerpon-w, so being able to check oger must make a team highly susceptible to other mons.
Please suspect test it.
I really don't get this post, and I hate to have to keep the discussion going but this post just...doesn't understand what IDBP Zama does or what it can do when paired with teammates.ok so just because dondozo is good on stall doesnt mean its restricted to it lol u can run dozo on balance and the team can still be good if you run heavy slam on zam for clefable you just get walled by literally every single ghost type in the game and makes the mon useless, idbp never runs stone edge lmfao nor does it run z and if you do you lose out on so much coverage and makes the mon even worse and rockium z??? idk if you know but im arguing against idbp zama which would lose out on its recovery running z and lose out on its coverage plus nobody runs that on idbp sets or in general rockium z isnt even in the top 4 most used items with zamazenta and is sub 2 percent usage lmfao iron valiant also rarely runs knock off and is walled by skeledirge gliscor also risks its recovery switching into skeledirge because of wisp and you literally just contradicted yourself first you say that dirge and molt being difficult to fit isnt subjective then literally admitted it was appealing to PERSONAL EXPERIENCE when that literally is the definition of subjective lol and im gonna avoid posting about council because my last post got edited for talking about it
4th moveslot | Checks |
Encore | , (partially), (partially), (partially), (partially) |
Superpower | , |
Play Rough | , |
dumb question but did you mean SpD instead of Spe? i can see the merits of some speed, but forgoing serious def or SpD investment in favor of a stat that doesn’t matter that much on a wall, and gets reduced by curse anyway just seems weird to me