Personally, while I don't think that Base Zamazenta is broken in the traditional sense, like legendary stats or busted ability, it's definitely one of the highest tiers in terms of power (I'd personally say A or even A+ if I feel generous), and the speed and bulkiness combined makes it hard to revenge kill without a special scarfer, and even then in most cases it's not guaranteed. This leads to it being nearly insurmountable from an offensive standpoint, and the above post has already demonstrated how proficient it is in wall breaking. I wouldn't necessarily be surprised if a Zamazenta sus is put in place in the future, but I'm not exactly craving a ban either.
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Metagame National Dex Metagame Discussion
- Thread starter Nashrock
- Start date
I feel like you're underestimating both of these guys a lot, deo-s is just insanely stupid all around because of how much goddamn set variety this dude has. It's got all the coverage it could ever need, nasty plot and a speed tier so comically over the top you naturally outspeed scarf lele and shifu. Scarf Darkrai is really middling, scarf kart is solid but can blank into lando/corvi structures and barraskewda is barraskewda. Boulder and Ival struggle to deal too much damage to deo-s before getting smacked, and thats before you even calculate if BE's even active, because they instantly fold afterwards.If there is a plan to retest more mons, maybe we can giveand
a try. Less sure on
,
, and the various
mons like
,
, and
, not to mention strong priority from the likes of
,
,
,
etc. Supportive sets would more than likely not be much better than existing options such
,
,
, or
imo.
I'm also starting to get exhausted from seeing mmeta on ppl's unban list. I don't understand what warrants it getting freed when the metagame only got better for it and it got 2 amazing upgrades to its stabs over current options. It's just way too bulky, way too fast and hits way too hard to be in the tier. I think 3a + toxic is probably its best set as you can force in lando before crippling it long-term with toxic, allowing you to win much later on. Sd would also be terrifying to deal with, due to its gargantuan atk stat, great spe and a good ability in combination with its great defensive typing, letting it set up on basically everything (namely lele)
Good points, however, its important to note that Mega Metagross doesn't get Swords Dance (unless I am missing something).
Anyways....
Archaludon @ Dragonium Z
Ability: Stamina
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 76 HP / 252 SpA / 180 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stealth Rock
- Draco Meteor
- Body Press
- Flash Cannon
Since our boy Archie is legal here (AND WILL HOPEFULLY STAY LEGAL) I've been messing around with it on a few random, non-rain structs. This is a set I've been having fun with on the ladder. Arch has a lot of cool traits to make it a decent Rocks setter between its solid speed, decent defensive profile, and Stamina letting it punish Knock Off and other weak utility moves like U-Turn. This gives it a decent number of oppurtunities to setup Rocks and hit hard with Z-Draco Meteor, which is doing a number against the various defensive Grounds like Landorus-T, Gliscor, etc.. Stamina boosted Body Presses also shave off quite a bit of health from switch-ins like Heatran, which takes roughly 50% from +1 Body Press.
I think Z-Sets could have move potential on Rain teams since Arch could use them to lure and KO checks such as Ferrothorn or Clodsire, while preserving Tera for Booster Raging Bolt to use later. There are a fair few trade-offs though, namely lower special bulk and losing to Blissey.
Supportive sets would more than likely not be much better than existing options such
Aside from the fact that we have to stop constantly trying to bring stuff down when we have better things to be doing with our time (there’s more important subjects like keeping an eye on ogerponW or Raging Bolt, or another mob I’ll be talking about in a moment), only TingLu is even worth mentioning of those four you listed and it’s still not as good as it was in regular ou. Grimm is bad, ATales fell off a cliff post bad ban and Glimmora has been shit for a long time. None of them are anywhere near deoS.
thing is absolutely insane, fastest unboosted mon in the meta with a powerful cc that shreds anything neutral, free defense boost lets it soft check stuff like weavile lop lando etc; in short it switches in super easily and makes progress every time it comes it, maybe not to the extent of stuff like medicham or luna but it makes of for raw power with speed, above average natural bulk and a lot of set variety
Anyways, this. Right now zama is completely insane how good it is. We have zero splashable ghosts which makes body press sets less fishy, while it has more freedom for Z sets which are among the best lures around imo. It’s reliable and puts in work game to game and I think it’s worth keeping an eye on. Don’t think it’s broken atm.
also this. I was initially feeling generous for mmeta a couple months ago before indigo disk released, and was at least entertaining the idea of maybe testing it. But now it would be a terrible waste of time. Knock and heavy slam further amp up what it’s known for and I don’t think it really does much good for the tier past handling lele. And yeah lele is dumb but that’s just how it be.
Jesus Christ dude we don't need more unban sus.If there is a plan to retest more mons, maybe we can give
That aside firstly just look at mmetas stats and movepool, it's not ok and as for deo s, unlike svou we have z crystals here so np z is also an option also it is the best suicide lead literally ever and specs sets what do those remind you of....
also it's the fastest non scarf mon that would be legal meaning if its npd it's hard to stop
think we should suspectbecause AFAIK
has no counters. I will rescind my argument if someone can provide me some viable ones.
lol if this was a reason to suspect something like 10 other random shit mons would be banned too. See: Serperior, Tapu Lele
what playstyle is this? Because if its Balance, or stall, this is most definitely not true lol, and there are numerous mons who do this but better. Hoopa does not like the fact that half the mons on these teams can Tera Fairy and pivot into it anyways, it also cant really switch into anything on these teams consistently at all, and does not like the fact that these teams usually carry Pursuit. This mon is awful, it does ”well” vs balance and stall, but even those have numerous forms of counterplay for it. There are loads of mons that “shut down” entire playstyles, like Dondonzo usually walling the entirety of HO, Hawlucha owning opposing HO, Taunt Lele / Serp owning Stall, etc. Point is there is a lot of cost that comes with running these sets, and with hoopa is that you are completely useless vs anything faster than a fat balance.
u forgot intimidate
this is all assuming it clicks the right move and has the correct move as well, scarf lele also outspeeds and kos. you require future sight support to even try and break through stuff like alo pex gking, its also very easily worn down and if it mispredicts it loses a lot of momentum.
That being said, this tier also has plenty of fast mons that can keep up with its speed tier, such as :Barrakewda: under rain,
did u know band rillaboom grassy glide can easily miss the KO on deo s with very minimal investment?
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Grassy Glide vs. 0 HP / 12 Def Deoxys-Speed in Grassy Terrain: 204-240 (84.6 - 99.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
speaking of investment, being so fast it can afford to invest in some bulk. the highest it can drop is to hit 493 speed for +1 base 100s, and you can even dip lower, entering into scarf lele or scarf shifu category. Scarf darkrai is a horrid set that bad otherwise, scarf kart is fair, barra is specific to rain, and IVal, Boulder, and Moth are all offense specific. Not to mention that non of these booster mons even come close to KOing it, with the closest being IMoth sludge doing a maximum of 80 lol. Strong prio for Mzor which.…. doesnt even 2hko?
0 Atk Technician Scizor-Mega Bullet Punch vs. 44 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-Speed: 102-120 (40.4 - 47.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
You have to win a 5050 with mega mawile
252 Atk Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 44 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-Speed: 98-116 (38.8 - 46%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Not to mention espeed isnt even its best set lol
(44 is the mimimum amount of bulk you can have, you can easily get more if you drop)
Supportive sets are significantly better than those, for one ting lu isnt a lead (while deo is), and none of these mons can constantly get up rocks + deny rocks on literally every mon in the tier, or get up max turn screens (tar denies tales completely, grimm can get knocked t1 and cant pivot out nor deny rocks on it, + can just outright die to shifu, or put it in a position to sweep, or get screens turns stalled out because you can pivot around it if you have a dark and can lose to other leads as well. Glimm also gets owned by shifu, and again turn into setup fodder for stuff like that. deo s does better than all of these + all of them at the same time.
Im not even gonna entertain mmeta because if you bothered to open the damage calc you would see how ridiculous it is lol.
METAGROSS HAS SD? Anyways Metagross's aptitude to wallbreak everything with its large movepool us one of the main reasons of its brokenness. Has the 350 Speed tier, has Ice Punch, stomping tantrum, bullet Punch, psychic fangs, slam, anyways it's Too much. A mon I'd see unbanned (i dont want it tho) Is :
NONE! the mons in uber are in uber for a fking reason! Why unban some broken shit Because it's you fav mon? Go play ubers bruh
Can you one time, stop to be rude ? This is not because a Pokémon is Uber since the start of the generation that it will be at the end (see Darkrai).
While I do agree that we should be relatively kind in the forums here, there can be very obvious reasons as to why some mons just... shouldn't have a suspect? If you did actually bother to look through movepools, sets, stats, calcs and file through them, you would find many of these mons have very easily identifiable reasons as to why its... you know, in Ubers in the first place. I won't go into detail about every one of them because aforementioned users have already bantered you enough.
Just saying that generally more thought should go into "we should sus this mon" posts just as a precaution before you get Lechonk'd by everyone else in forums
Some arguments don't even relate to the brokenness of a mon, like see post above. Ubers is a banlist for things that are too much for NDOU to handle. Darkrai simply got powercrept. You can't make the argument that "oh, this mon got unban so I think we should test this one". The argument should be "is this mon okay for NDOU?" and if you do your appropriate research it becomes relatively easy to identify where it's a yes or a no. And otherwise it goes to forums where the Big Shamoners can review your takes.
I feel like literally everyone knows how to check for a mon's viability, but honestly at this point I feel like I should list some things to check
Stats. Raw stats can be a big factor. I bet if you give Calyrex-S just Moongeist Beam as it's only move, it'd still be Ubers. I'm not even kidding. Just sheer stats can heavily weigh in on a pokemon's viability, as it determines how much they can outspeed in the tier, how many hits it can take, and how hard it hits.
Ability. An ability is probably the most unique trait of each pokemon, and that alone can sometimes be the deciding factor as well. See Mr.
. Probably Ru if not for Poison Heal
Movepool. How far spread of their movepool do they have? This can also weigh in a pokemon's viability, as certain movepools can be so limited they don't justify running the mon See M-Pidgeot. Pretty awesome stats, until you see their only usable attacking STAB is Hurricane. On the opposite spectrum, see
. No explanation needed.
Typing. Typing almost always has a significant role. See mons like M-Scizor, Lando/Gliscor, Alomomola, even. Avalugg. Skeledirge(?). Literally Lokix. Defensive/offensive synergy literally forms most team structures, and they all come from a mon’s respective typing and how much it can add to the team. See Big Stall.
Current Meta. Depending on the popular mons in the tier currently, it can weigh on how good a mon is. See the goobing dawg of OU
. We nuked all the ghost types in the tier so IDBP sets are unrivaled. See the infamous pokeaim-inspired 
. No ghost resist that are good right now. It shoots free Poltergeists off of 165 base ATK(not even mentioning it's movepool and ability give it merit, as mentioned above).
There’s probably more factors. Now before you say “oh high and mighty Boppydop you did not need to compose this masterpiece” I appreciate your sentiment(kek) but Shut Up no one Asked
Also i had to type this argument in Google Docs bc my proxy crashed while writing LOL
Just saying that generally more thought should go into "we should sus this mon" posts just as a precaution before you get Lechonk'd by everyone else in forums
Some arguments don't even relate to the brokenness of a mon, like see post above. Ubers is a banlist for things that are too much for NDOU to handle. Darkrai simply got powercrept. You can't make the argument that "oh, this mon got unban so I think we should test this one". The argument should be "is this mon okay for NDOU?" and if you do your appropriate research it becomes relatively easy to identify where it's a yes or a no. And otherwise it goes to forums where the Big Shamoners can review your takes.
I feel like literally everyone knows how to check for a mon's viability, but honestly at this point I feel like I should list some things to check
Stats. Raw stats can be a big factor. I bet if you give Calyrex-S just Moongeist Beam as it's only move, it'd still be Ubers. I'm not even kidding. Just sheer stats can heavily weigh in on a pokemon's viability, as it determines how much they can outspeed in the tier, how many hits it can take, and how hard it hits.
Ability. An ability is probably the most unique trait of each pokemon, and that alone can sometimes be the deciding factor as well. See Mr.
. Probably Ru if not for Poison HealMovepool. How far spread of their movepool do they have? This can also weigh in a pokemon's viability, as certain movepools can be so limited they don't justify running the mon See M-Pidgeot. Pretty awesome stats, until you see their only usable attacking STAB is Hurricane. On the opposite spectrum, see
. No explanation needed.Typing. Typing almost always has a significant role. See mons like M-Scizor, Lando/Gliscor, Alomomola, even. Avalugg. Skeledirge(?). Literally Lokix. Defensive/offensive synergy literally forms most team structures, and they all come from a mon’s respective typing and how much it can add to the team. See Big Stall.
Current Meta. Depending on the popular mons in the tier currently, it can weigh on how good a mon is. See the goobing dawg of OU
. We nuked all the ghost types in the tier so IDBP sets are unrivaled. See the infamous pokeaim-inspired . No ghost resist that are good right now. It shoots free Poltergeists off of 165 base ATK(not even mentioning it's movepool and ability give it merit, as mentioned above).There’s probably more factors. Now before you say “oh high and mighty Boppydop you did not need to compose this masterpiece” I appreciate your sentiment(kek) but Shut Up no one Asked
Also i had to type this argument in Google Docs bc my proxy crashed while writing LOL
Last edited:
Writing this to cool off a bit, so I’m sorry if it’s off topic.
Anyway, I wanted to talk about a certain mon
This is one of my favorite mons to use right now along with idbp zama and pex, funnily enough. If you told casual pokemon player me that I would like balance most, my past self wouldn’t believe you. Anyway, on to the Pokémon I’m talking about, which is Mega Latias.
Strengths, sets, and it’s place in the metagame
To understand Latias’ place in the tier right now, we need metagame context. What are some of the best Pokémon here? What do the Viability rankings look like and how do this mon’s traits interact with these pieces?
To answer all these, we need to know what this mon’s sets are.
Latias-Mega (F) @ Latiasite
Ability: Levitate
Tera Type: Dragon
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psyshock
- Aura Sphere
- Roost
- Calm Mind
Well, the first of this mon’s strengths is its ability to be a good calm mind user, using its great bulk and decent typing to be a quite threatening wincon. With roost, it’s also able to do this quite consistently. With Pokémon like Zamazenta, heatran, and Waterpon being quite good in the tier, its typing is able to be used to great effect defensively, allowing it to setup multiple calm minds. Oh yeah, I forgot to mention that this metagame is infested by a lot of spikes; with levitate, Latias is able to stay on the field even longer! This is important despite the other two calm mind users that come to mind, cresselia and clefable, being hazard immune because latias has a much more threatening 140 base spatk stat, higher than both cresselia and clefable. Other Pokemon it checks include Urshifu, Kartana, Rillaboom, and Mega Medicham, a Pokemon that is difficult to check for the balance teams latias finds itself on. It also has Aura Sphere, an excellent tool on a Pokémon so weak to darks and steels like mega Tyranitar, weavile, heatran, and ferrothron that would otherwise stuff it without the coverage. This move also sets it apart from clefable mainly due to it being able to hit steels (cress only needs to be mentioned once since it’s not very common nor very good). This set fits well in a metagame that holds monsters like Zamazenta and Waterpon in it, while also being a threatening wincon with its bulk, spikes immunity, and unique typing along with good coverage in aura sphere, being able to blow past certain team structures if given the chance. Unfortunately, this set is very prone to status moves from slowking galar, Gliscor, and Alomomola, very common pokemon on balance structures. How is this solved? Look at this set:
Latias-Mega (F) @ Latiasite
Ability: Levitate
Tera Type: Dragon
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stored Power
- Substitute
- Roost
- Calm Mind
With Substitute, Mega Latias is able to force progress against the many common balance structures that threaten mtias without it, whereas the set with aura sphere is able to do well against bulky offense and even some offense structures at points like rain and sun (sometimes), this set excels at forcing progress against balance teams, which can be quite difficult to do in a balance vs balance matchup. It denies passive Pokémon like Glowking, Garganacl, Gliscor, and defensive Zapdos among others like Alomomola. With stored power and calm mind, in conjunction with substitute, latias is able to boost past unaware Pokémon like Dondozo and Skeledirge (on the rare occasion you see dirge) while also boosting past Pokemon like Ferrothorn, Clefable, Corviknight, and against stall Chansey. Substitute also makes it way easier to set up calm minds. This set does have one issue, though; it can’t hit darks like ting Lu and mega tyranitar. What do most darks have in common, though? That’s it; they are all very hazard weak. Pair it with spikes setters like Ferrothorn, Gliscor, and even skarmory and suddenly it stored power mtias is able to sweep and do annoying things to teams with these darks much easier. Toxic Spikes is also a notable companion to this set, being mainly set by Toxapex, allowing mtias to wear down teams much easier throughout a game. If I recall correctly, near the end of dlc1 there was this team that had sub calm mind mtias along with tspikes meowscarada, and to my knowledge it performed decently, showing this set still exists. There are also other ways to beat the darks mentioned. You can use a certain lure to beat them and then sweep with mtias (see: this team by lameflame) or you can use a Pokémon that threatens these darks immensely, such as Zamazenta (no examples for this set specifically, but even with different mtias sets you can see this same idea being used, such as in this team). Overall, this set is a great progress maker on more fat balance teams, and with good support can be very threatening against many of the passive pokemon running around. But even so, there are still quite a number of Pokemon that offensively threaten mtias, such as Mega Scizor, iron boulder, and even Waterpon at points. How do we solve these issues, now?
Latias (F) @ Latiasite
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Psychic / Psyshock
- Aura Sphere / Ice Beam / Draco Meteor
- Thunder Wave
- Roost
Enter Thunder Wave mega latias, arguably the most consistent out of all mtias sets. With access to Thunder Wave and its huge bulk that was mentioned earlier, it is able to be quite the annoying support Pokemon, crippling pretty much anything wanting to switch in or just threaten it offensively, like the aforementioned Mega Scizor among other things like dragonite and nplot tornt. Almost nothing switches in on this safely besides grounds which aren’t very keen on taking multiple psychics (mainly Lando and great tusk) a game and other grounds like Gliscor and Garchomp and are threatened by another coverage option in ice beam. With aura sphere, it is able to threaten basically everything that was mentioned in the Calm mind aura sphere section. Para is a super annoying status and slows down a ton of offensive threats that benefit the fat and balance teams this set because of how fat teams can be overwhelmed by these offensive threats. Sure, this is cool and all, but why not just use something like thunder wave clefable? Well, there are a couple of selling points to differentiate Latias from clefable in this case. One is its typing, which allows it to check Pokémon like waterpon, Zamazenta, mega Medicham, mega Charizard y, and Kartana, Pokémon that are all able to threaten clefable one way or another most of the time, and are quite notable threats to bulkier teams that mtias is usually fit on. Not only that, mtias has much more chances to throw off a thunder wave, as it’s greater bulk on top of the fact that it is generally sort of tough to fit twave on clef sometimes. This is also considering the fact mtias has better matchups into many threatening offensive Pokémon, and while it still misses out on things like Tapu lele and iron valiant (as it usually is forced out by them), it is able to spread status well against Pokemon like sd kart, bulky dd gouging fire, waterpon, and mega scizor even. Waterpon and mega scizor are extremely important targets for thunder wave, as they are very threatening to balance structures and are immensely crippled by thunder wave. Combining Latias’ excellent bulk, good defensive typing in this current metagame, and the ability to spread status very effectively allows thunder wave to be very consistent on a lot of fatter balance teams, and although it wasn’t a sample set for the longest time I encourage you to try it.
Conclusion
So, what can we infer from these sets? How exactly does mtias play in the current metagame now that we know what its sets do and how they fit in such a varied tier? Well, we know that mtias is able to act as a good wincon against a lot of different team structures with calm mind, being able to force a lot of progress if played and positioned right. Even though it seems like a fatter mon, The ability for Mega Latias to force progress on structures that can have difficulty doing so, even with utility options like thunder wave that may not seem threatening at first, allow it to be a good fit on balance teams. Its bulk and reliable recovery also allows it to do these things constantly, further giving it use as being able to check many things that fatter structures may have trouble with. In conclusion, Mega Latias, even though it has flaws that can be inferred by the structure of these sets and how latias generally matches up poorly into a good amount of good Pokemon, I feel it is quite underused and should be seen a lot more for its unique traits flowing well into the structure of this metagame, as well as being great glue for a lot of balance teams that can struggle against certain threats to their structures.
Anyway, I wanted to talk about a certain mon
This is one of my favorite mons to use right now along with idbp zama and pex, funnily enough. If you told casual pokemon player me that I would like balance most, my past self wouldn’t believe you. Anyway, on to the Pokémon I’m talking about, which is Mega Latias.
Strengths, sets, and it’s place in the metagame
To understand Latias’ place in the tier right now, we need metagame context. What are some of the best Pokémon here? What do the Viability rankings look like and how do this mon’s traits interact with these pieces?
To answer all these, we need to know what this mon’s sets are.
Latias-Mega (F) @ Latiasite
Ability: Levitate
Tera Type: Dragon
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psyshock
- Aura Sphere
- Roost
- Calm Mind
Well, the first of this mon’s strengths is its ability to be a good calm mind user, using its great bulk and decent typing to be a quite threatening wincon. With roost, it’s also able to do this quite consistently. With Pokémon like Zamazenta, heatran, and Waterpon being quite good in the tier, its typing is able to be used to great effect defensively, allowing it to setup multiple calm minds. Oh yeah, I forgot to mention that this metagame is infested by a lot of spikes; with levitate, Latias is able to stay on the field even longer! This is important despite the other two calm mind users that come to mind, cresselia and clefable, being hazard immune because latias has a much more threatening 140 base spatk stat, higher than both cresselia and clefable. Other Pokemon it checks include Urshifu, Kartana, Rillaboom, and Mega Medicham, a Pokemon that is difficult to check for the balance teams latias finds itself on. It also has Aura Sphere, an excellent tool on a Pokémon so weak to darks and steels like mega Tyranitar, weavile, heatran, and ferrothron that would otherwise stuff it without the coverage. This move also sets it apart from clefable mainly due to it being able to hit steels (cress only needs to be mentioned once since it’s not very common nor very good). This set fits well in a metagame that holds monsters like Zamazenta and Waterpon in it, while also being a threatening wincon with its bulk, spikes immunity, and unique typing along with good coverage in aura sphere, being able to blow past certain team structures if given the chance. Unfortunately, this set is very prone to status moves from slowking galar, Gliscor, and Alomomola, very common pokemon on balance structures. How is this solved? Look at this set:
Latias-Mega (F) @ Latiasite
Ability: Levitate
Tera Type: Dragon
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stored Power
- Substitute
- Roost
- Calm Mind
With Substitute, Mega Latias is able to force progress against the many common balance structures that threaten mtias without it, whereas the set with aura sphere is able to do well against bulky offense and even some offense structures at points like rain and sun (sometimes), this set excels at forcing progress against balance teams, which can be quite difficult to do in a balance vs balance matchup. It denies passive Pokémon like Glowking, Garganacl, Gliscor, and defensive Zapdos among others like Alomomola. With stored power and calm mind, in conjunction with substitute, latias is able to boost past unaware Pokémon like Dondozo and Skeledirge (on the rare occasion you see dirge) while also boosting past Pokemon like Ferrothorn, Clefable, Corviknight, and against stall Chansey. Substitute also makes it way easier to set up calm minds. This set does have one issue, though; it can’t hit darks like ting Lu and mega tyranitar. What do most darks have in common, though? That’s it; they are all very hazard weak. Pair it with spikes setters like Ferrothorn, Gliscor, and even skarmory and suddenly it stored power mtias is able to sweep and do annoying things to teams with these darks much easier. Toxic Spikes is also a notable companion to this set, being mainly set by Toxapex, allowing mtias to wear down teams much easier throughout a game. If I recall correctly, near the end of dlc1 there was this team that had sub calm mind mtias along with tspikes meowscarada, and to my knowledge it performed decently, showing this set still exists. There are also other ways to beat the darks mentioned. You can use a certain lure to beat them and then sweep with mtias (see: this team by lameflame) or you can use a Pokémon that threatens these darks immensely, such as Zamazenta (no examples for this set specifically, but even with different mtias sets you can see this same idea being used, such as in this team). Overall, this set is a great progress maker on more fat balance teams, and with good support can be very threatening against many of the passive pokemon running around. But even so, there are still quite a number of Pokemon that offensively threaten mtias, such as Mega Scizor, iron boulder, and even Waterpon at points. How do we solve these issues, now?
Latias (F) @ Latiasite
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Psychic / Psyshock
- Aura Sphere / Ice Beam / Draco Meteor
- Thunder Wave
- Roost
Enter Thunder Wave mega latias, arguably the most consistent out of all mtias sets. With access to Thunder Wave and its huge bulk that was mentioned earlier, it is able to be quite the annoying support Pokemon, crippling pretty much anything wanting to switch in or just threaten it offensively, like the aforementioned Mega Scizor among other things like dragonite and nplot tornt. Almost nothing switches in on this safely besides grounds which aren’t very keen on taking multiple psychics (mainly Lando and great tusk) a game and other grounds like Gliscor and Garchomp and are threatened by another coverage option in ice beam. With aura sphere, it is able to threaten basically everything that was mentioned in the Calm mind aura sphere section. Para is a super annoying status and slows down a ton of offensive threats that benefit the fat and balance teams this set because of how fat teams can be overwhelmed by these offensive threats. Sure, this is cool and all, but why not just use something like thunder wave clefable? Well, there are a couple of selling points to differentiate Latias from clefable in this case. One is its typing, which allows it to check Pokémon like waterpon, Zamazenta, mega Medicham, mega Charizard y, and Kartana, Pokémon that are all able to threaten clefable one way or another most of the time, and are quite notable threats to bulkier teams that mtias is usually fit on. Not only that, mtias has much more chances to throw off a thunder wave, as it’s greater bulk on top of the fact that it is generally sort of tough to fit twave on clef sometimes. This is also considering the fact mtias has better matchups into many threatening offensive Pokémon, and while it still misses out on things like Tapu lele and iron valiant (as it usually is forced out by them), it is able to spread status well against Pokemon like sd kart, bulky dd gouging fire, waterpon, and mega scizor even. Waterpon and mega scizor are extremely important targets for thunder wave, as they are very threatening to balance structures and are immensely crippled by thunder wave. Combining Latias’ excellent bulk, good defensive typing in this current metagame, and the ability to spread status very effectively allows thunder wave to be very consistent on a lot of fatter balance teams, and although it wasn’t a sample set for the longest time I encourage you to try it.
Conclusion
So, what can we infer from these sets? How exactly does mtias play in the current metagame now that we know what its sets do and how they fit in such a varied tier? Well, we know that mtias is able to act as a good wincon against a lot of different team structures with calm mind, being able to force a lot of progress if played and positioned right. Even though it seems like a fatter mon, The ability for Mega Latias to force progress on structures that can have difficulty doing so, even with utility options like thunder wave that may not seem threatening at first, allow it to be a good fit on balance teams. Its bulk and reliable recovery also allows it to do these things constantly, further giving it use as being able to check many things that fatter structures may have trouble with. In conclusion, Mega Latias, even though it has flaws that can be inferred by the structure of these sets and how latias generally matches up poorly into a good amount of good Pokemon, I feel it is quite underused and should be seen a lot more for its unique traits flowing well into the structure of this metagame, as well as being great glue for a lot of balance teams that can struggle against certain threats to their structures.
We should sus test mega metagross again. It sure is extremely fat but it would help check broken stuff like Iron Crown and Ogerpon for offensive teams.
What? How is iron crown broken lol? Mmeta doesn’t even check Waterpon at all? Also we shouldn’t bring down a mon because it beats “broken” things in a meta. It would result in a broken beats broken metagame and that is almost never healthy.
these usage stats correlate to January's unweighted stats https://www.smogon.com/stats/2024-01/gen9nationaldex-0.txt.
so not Feburary's stats
my bad
Thank god, Mega banette didn't and will never fall
I don’t think the meta is built to handle MegaMetagross. There aren’t a lot of strong special attacking ghosts and grounds to force it out and it 2hkos essentially everything.
I think base Zama is definitely broken in the traditional sense. It has 4 viable sets that all play differently. It’s nearly impossible to revenge kill due to its ridiculous speed tier and box legendary bulk. Tera gives it free turns to kill your checks. Also, this is the single best mon in the tier at forcing tera. IronPress sets straight up win a lot of games unless you pack tera ghost. Also, guessing the 4th move on IronPress is an absolute nightmare. This mon needs a suspect.
I'm hesitant about Mega Metagross as well. While there are a lot of fire types in this tier, none of them exactly love switching into Metagross. DarmanitanDLuffy is also right in that there aren't a ton of ghosts and grounds, who haven't been banned, who can handle Metagross. Gengar can speed tie it and has good attacking prowess but it's not very good otherwise in this tier, is frail and vulnerable to Bullet Punch.
But the real problem I can see with Mega Metagross is agility. This is where it goes from dominant to overwhelming in my eyes. After an agility, Mega Metagross outruns most of the meta game (no pun intended.) With just three moves in STAB steel coverage, either Meteor Mash or Bullet Punch, Earthquake and a choice for last move.
Thunder Punch for Gyarados, Charizard, Dondozo, Greninja, Alomomola, Corviknight and Tornadus among others
Ice Punch for Landorus, Dragonite, Zapdos and Gliscor
Knock Off for opposing psychics, ghosts and for neutral coverage against most things with the benefit for item removal.
Psychic Coverage like Psychic Fangs or Zen Headbutt to really hit Great Tusk, Mega-Lopunny, Zamazenta, Urshifu.
Stone Edge to really destroy Charizard and Moltres while retaining good damage on Tornadus, Zapdos and others.
Fighting coverage for the few darks in this tier that might survive a Meteor Mash + Ursaluna.
A lot of so called, checks, will die to a coverage option or at the very least be crippled since it's immune to toxic and with Bullet Punch not even Paralysis is safe. The best status to use is Burn but that is risky to pull off reliably since you hit will o wisp setters really hard, and again, Stone Edge smacks Moltres into oblivion while Knock Off removes its boots and thus makes it vulnerable to Stealth Rock.
The only thing I can see holding Mega Metagross from being outright broken is that it can't Tera, doesn't hold another item and only gets four moves. But the sheer power of this thing makes me very suspicious to say the least.
But the real problem I can see with Mega Metagross is agility. This is where it goes from dominant to overwhelming in my eyes. After an agility, Mega Metagross outruns most of the meta game (no pun intended.) With just three moves in STAB steel coverage, either Meteor Mash or Bullet Punch, Earthquake and a choice for last move.
Thunder Punch for Gyarados, Charizard, Dondozo, Greninja, Alomomola, Corviknight and Tornadus among others
Ice Punch for Landorus, Dragonite, Zapdos and Gliscor
Knock Off for opposing psychics, ghosts and for neutral coverage against most things with the benefit for item removal.
Psychic Coverage like Psychic Fangs or Zen Headbutt to really hit Great Tusk, Mega-Lopunny, Zamazenta, Urshifu.
Stone Edge to really destroy Charizard and Moltres while retaining good damage on Tornadus, Zapdos and others.
Fighting coverage for the few darks in this tier that might survive a Meteor Mash + Ursaluna.
A lot of so called, checks, will die to a coverage option or at the very least be crippled since it's immune to toxic and with Bullet Punch not even Paralysis is safe. The best status to use is Burn but that is risky to pull off reliably since you hit will o wisp setters really hard, and again, Stone Edge smacks Moltres into oblivion while Knock Off removes its boots and thus makes it vulnerable to Stealth Rock.
The only thing I can see holding Mega Metagross from being outright broken is that it can't Tera, doesn't hold another item and only gets four moves. But the sheer power of this thing makes me very suspicious to say the least.
absolutely not LMAO. Ignoring the 700 BST that's well distributed to all of its stats, SV gave it several moveset buffs that make it even better than it was in gen 8 in the form of Psychic Fangs, Heavy Slam, and Knock Off. All of which made regular Metagross rise to UU, imagine if these were all buffed by tough claws
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Mega Metagross also just doesn't die easily. At all.
Sure, Alomomola probably doesn't die to it very quickly but it does jack all back to you since it would be forced to run Scald just to weaken it, maybe, with a burn. And Toxapex is in the same ballpark but worse. Not only does STAB Psychic Fangs destroy you, but you have Earthquake in case you don't wanna run that. Failing that, Thunder Punch to at least maintain some super effective coverage. Again, all Toxapex and most waters can do back is fire off a weak Scald and hope for a burn.
To play devil's advocate though, Mega Metagross does suffer somewhat from four moveslot syndrome. An argument, not a particularly great one but one nonetheless, is that Metagross can be checked with enough bulky Pokemon. If it lacks Hammer Arm, Ferrothorn is an annoyance. If it lacks Thunder Punch, Skarmory and Corviknight are annoying as well with the latter draining your power points. Hilariously, you can use Hidden Power Fire to deal with these since your special attack is a respectable 105 but that's not the best (but the option is pretty epic.) Without Ice Punch, defensive gliscor and landorus become problems (the latter now able to both intimidate you and weaken you further if it holds Rocky Helmet.) Without Psychic Noise, Dondozo becomes a nuisance and even if you have thunder punch is quite bulky. Against defensive teams, an argument could be made that you can withstand the assault given the right partners and assuming Metagross lacks the correct moves.
However, my counterargument to the above is that because Metagross CAN in fact have the move to beat almost any check, it exerts a tremendous strain in the teambuilder that would most likely warp the tier around it. It would easily become S ranked, no question. The strongest all out attacker in all probability. And if that isn't enough, against offensive teams, forget about it. The moment that Metagross gets a free turn the game will likely snowball since it has the stats to wipe out a vast VAST majority of frail offensive targets that probably get OKHOed at worst and irrevocably damaged at best.
Oh yeah, did I mention it gets Grass Knot too? Yeah, bye Dondozo.
Sure, Alomomola probably doesn't die to it very quickly but it does jack all back to you since it would be forced to run Scald just to weaken it, maybe, with a burn. And Toxapex is in the same ballpark but worse. Not only does STAB Psychic Fangs destroy you, but you have Earthquake in case you don't wanna run that. Failing that, Thunder Punch to at least maintain some super effective coverage. Again, all Toxapex and most waters can do back is fire off a weak Scald and hope for a burn.
To play devil's advocate though, Mega Metagross does suffer somewhat from four moveslot syndrome. An argument, not a particularly great one but one nonetheless, is that Metagross can be checked with enough bulky Pokemon. If it lacks Hammer Arm, Ferrothorn is an annoyance. If it lacks Thunder Punch, Skarmory and Corviknight are annoying as well with the latter draining your power points. Hilariously, you can use Hidden Power Fire to deal with these since your special attack is a respectable 105 but that's not the best (but the option is pretty epic.) Without Ice Punch, defensive gliscor and landorus become problems (the latter now able to both intimidate you and weaken you further if it holds Rocky Helmet.) Without Psychic Noise, Dondozo becomes a nuisance and even if you have thunder punch is quite bulky. Against defensive teams, an argument could be made that you can withstand the assault given the right partners and assuming Metagross lacks the correct moves.
However, my counterargument to the above is that because Metagross CAN in fact have the move to beat almost any check, it exerts a tremendous strain in the teambuilder that would most likely warp the tier around it. It would easily become S ranked, no question. The strongest all out attacker in all probability. And if that isn't enough, against offensive teams, forget about it. The moment that Metagross gets a free turn the game will likely snowball since it has the stats to wipe out a vast VAST majority of frail offensive targets that probably get OKHOed at worst and irrevocably damaged at best.
Oh yeah, did I mention it gets Grass Knot too? Yeah, bye Dondozo.
47 | Greninja | 4.482%|
Ehm
FUCKING FINALLY
What the hell were y'all doing keeping this shitter up here. Good riddance.
Ehm
FUCKING FINALLY
What the hell were y'all doing keeping this shitter up here. Good riddance.
Battle Bond is pretty good on rain tbf.
No... Its really quite overrated plz just run like manaphy or something, gren is so fucking useless period.
sure, just give some reasons on what changed to make it balanced now instead of more broken
band and boots have the same sets, and some of its checks also overlap. the only 2 real coverage moves on idpress are crunch and slam, you also dont need tera ghost to not to lose to it lol, and you also seemed to forget its also probably the biggest tera hog, needs tera to win games properly
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I don't have much of an opinion on Zamazenta but I know it can be a very annoying win condition. Basically, if you don't have a faster psychic/fairy attacker, a ghost type to wall it or a way to overpower it quickly then it can indeed just win games if given room for set up. That being said I have seen this thing get walled by Clodsire of all things, while other Pokemon like Skeledirge and Sinischa who are less common just destroy it with Skeledirge even ignoring substitute while Sinischa just becomes unkillable if given wiggle room.
It's more of an anomaly of a Pokemon really, essentially having the BST of Reshiram and Lugia if memory serves me but just being palatable enough for OU. Wouldn't be surprised if it got optimized and banned though.
It's more of an anomaly of a Pokemon really, essentially having the BST of Reshiram and Lugia if memory serves me but just being palatable enough for OU. Wouldn't be surprised if it got optimized and banned though.