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Metagame National Dex Metagame Discussion
- Thread starter Nashrock
- Start date
I think Hoopa's ban was maybe because the meta back then wasn't so offensive(please, do correct me if I'm wrong). Perhaps Hoopa's monstrous 160 and 170 offensive stats could be put into better use, but now, in NDSVOU, it's speed tier is smashed into bits. This does further prove powercreep's effect, but I don't think there will be a point to where stuff like Genesect could be put into normal OU(
coverage galore!).
(Maybe just personal bias but I think Lando-I sus would be cool., not on a competitive level but it seems largely fun to play.)
coverage galore!).(Maybe just personal bias but I think Lando-I sus would be cool., not on a competitive level but it seems largely fun to play.)
TBF, various people are right about why we should be cautious around Lando I.
Because it is a very potent balance breaker. It smashes through balance teams pretty effectively. Until more special walls, good special walls, get added to the game it's uncertain if we could reasonably test it in OU.
Because it is a very potent balance breaker. It smashes through balance teams pretty effectively. Until more special walls, good special walls, get added to the game it's uncertain if we could reasonably test it in OU.
Mons that can afford running 4A are usually immense balance breakers, like say boots/band Zama and Mega-Diancie. They crush balance because of their ability to have a move for everything, and can hit everything at least effectively. Lando-I would be no exception. I was just saying, he looks really fun to play(as most 4A mons are; you just click).
On another note, and gladly changing the subject, Oculars mentioned this in NDOU chat the other day:
Zygarde-10% @ Choice Band
Ability: Aura Break
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Thousand Arrows
- Extreme Speed
- Thousand Waves
- Toxic
Originally the last two moves were different, but I didn't see a need for them. You could run Outrage, Superpower or Stone Edge if you're worried about losing Thousand Arrow's pp.
Thousand Arrows, the main move it'll be spamming, is extremely effective versus the aforementioned likes of balance, because of its affect. It hits ungrounded pokemon for neutral on their first hit, and then applies the Smack Down effect. Besides middling defensive grass types(which we don't have in this tier currently), it can spam the move because it really has no switch ins. It hits ground immunes like
, 
, 
and 
, common balance/bulky mons like 
and 
and has huge chip on 
and 
, which don't have reliable recovery.
-1 252 Atk Choice Band Tera Ground Zygarde-10% Thousand Arrows vs. 252 HP / 220+ Def Landorus-Therian: 130-154 (34 - 40.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Choice Band Tera Ground Zygarde-10% Thousand Arrows vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 204-242 (38.2 - 45.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Tera Ground Zygarde-10% Thousand Arrows vs. 252 HP / 44+ Def Ferrothorn: 170-202 (48.2 - 57.3%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
This mon is a beast. I've been wholly fascinated by it in the past week because of how effective it is. If you manage to build a strong core around it, you can allow it to Tera Ground first turn every game, which truly unleashes havoc alongside it's above average speed tier. In no way am I a good builder, but I've been using this so far and it's been doing great: https://pokepast.es/c76eb207edbb5bf5
Zygarde is a total counter to any slow or balance centered playstyle. What do you think?
Load this against Ineros
On another note, and gladly changing the subject, Oculars mentioned this in NDOU chat the other day:
Zygarde-10% @ Choice Band
Ability: Aura Break
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Thousand Arrows
- Extreme Speed
- Thousand Waves
- Toxic
Originally the last two moves were different, but I didn't see a need for them. You could run Outrage, Superpower or Stone Edge if you're worried about losing Thousand Arrow's pp.
Thousand Arrows, the main move it'll be spamming, is extremely effective versus the aforementioned likes of balance, because of its affect. It hits ungrounded pokemon for neutral on their first hit, and then applies the Smack Down effect. Besides middling defensive grass types(which we don't have in this tier currently), it can spam the move because it really has no switch ins. It hits ground immunes like
, , and , common balance/bulky mons like and and has huge chip on and , which don't have reliable recovery.-1 252 Atk Choice Band Tera Ground Zygarde-10% Thousand Arrows vs. 252 HP / 220+ Def Landorus-Therian: 130-154 (34 - 40.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Choice Band Tera Ground Zygarde-10% Thousand Arrows vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 204-242 (38.2 - 45.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Tera Ground Zygarde-10% Thousand Arrows vs. 252 HP / 44+ Def Ferrothorn: 170-202 (48.2 - 57.3%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
This mon is a beast. I've been wholly fascinated by it in the past week because of how effective it is. If you manage to build a strong core around it, you can allow it to Tera Ground first turn every game, which truly unleashes havoc alongside it's above average speed tier. In no way am I a good builder, but I've been using this so far and it's been doing great: https://pokepast.es/c76eb207edbb5bf5
Zygarde is a total counter to any slow or balance centered playstyle. What do you think?
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Love this mon, I slightly prefer ada over jolly as it turns those barely 3hko rolls into clean 2hkos in a lot of scenarios, such as vs defensive lando with rocks up and a bit of chip, mixed def mola and ferrothorn with no hazards up. Being at 329 is also a nice speed tier barely outspeeding +nature base 100s, jolly is also valid despite being slightly weaker as it can outrun the base 110s and even things like serperior.On another note, and gladly changing the subject, Oculars mentioned this in NDOU chat the other day:
Zygarde-10% @ Choice Band
Ability: Aura Break
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Thousand Arrows
- Extreme Speed
- Thousand Waves
- Toxic
The tier right now lacks a lot of the defensive grasses like tangrowth that used to be around in gen8 making it prime to be picked apart by zydog. Your only real switchins to this mon in the tier are dondozo, and rillaboom (tangrowth and hydrapple too but these mons are fake). Full pdef Landorus Therian can check it from full hp only, However after taking rocks once (88%) it now is guarantee 2hko'd by tera ground tarrows + rocks, making it a very shaky check especially considering how youre going to use your lando for more than just checking zydog in a game. Apart from tarrows being rediculously hard to switch into, having banded extreme speed is always super nice and being able to freely slot great utility such as glare/toxic for the rare cases where you do fight a defensive grass, yeah rillaboom and the odd hydrapple might be able to come in on tarrows but neither one appreciates having to eat a toxic and get put on a timer. This mon is the textbook definition of a glass cannon but its easier than ever to enable with how common regen slow pivots are and dont even get me started on trying to switch in to a banded tarrows + future sight cause that simply isnt happening. This is a mon that can force meaningful progress every single time it hits the field dont sleep on it.
I have played some nice HOs Recently but idk, Raging bolt feels odd to me. Speed tier isn't great, but it offensively hits a whole damn lot of things. Because power creep havent done It's Job properly, There is no real fast, meta and splashable Pokémon that has An easy day against it. Clod is a nice counter, but dies *painfully* to a CM dragonium Z set, And if unaware, it just gets dmeteor'd on again And again. Proto spa Is eeeevil and basically kills anything, EVEN UNDER LIGHT SCREEN, and this Is unacceptable. Speed not great Is the only thing keeping this thing From qb but bulk + 70 BP STAB prio makes this mon pretty broken. Imo. I mean, when you're testing a former uber mon, It's not supposed to be a second-choice Dragon in Sun or Screen teams. when it Is not running Dragonium, Tera reinforces its defensive profile. Tera fairy mostly, but Also water sometimes, make this thing Too much to handle. And if you're running some passive tox thing, it DOES run sub so you're dead anyways. Also, the eventual Eterrain rising voltage + tclap sucks, Too. And the Scarf volt switch. And specs volt switch. Bro doesnt Even need coverage (i dont remember if it has any) to free win, ways Too often
I just want to mention that while I don't think Raging Bolt is broken it is very good and definitely my favorite of the DLC Pokemon added to OU. My favorite set to run is Substitute Three attacks because you get lots of opportunities to set up a substitute and turn a lot of Pokemon into set up fodder. But other awesome sets include Dragonium Z with Calm Mind which forces its way through a lot of stuff, Calm Mind three attacks, various Tera abusers and I swear I saw somebody use Heavy Duty Boots on Raging Bolt on ladder. This dinosaur can cook, just needs the right partners.
Also worth noting that none of the ground types are entirely 100% safe fighting this Pokemon at full HP and that if given the right tools it can break past its checks. Iron Threads and Clodsire are probably the best since the former has the Mega Steelix typing (who itself while niche is also good against Bolt) that allows you to resist both STABs and against non Dragonium Z sets Clodsire can hold off Raging Bolts attacks (but repeated draco meteors sting since unaware makes you take extra damage, and under sun it's even worse.)
252+ SpA Protosynthesis Raging Bolt Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Clodsire: 228-268 (49.2 - 57.8%) -- 59% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
The ability to match up against a lot of relevant threats in the metagame plus its good characteristics means that Raging Bolt plays a very valuable role in OU that must be accounted for. Let's also not forget that things that you would think can beat it like Clefable, Blissey and Ferrothorn are vulnerable to getting taunted... though at least Clefable stacks moonblast to deny free set up non-unaware sets.
In terms of teras, there are also a lot more possibilities mentioned. Fairy is great defensively since it makes you immune to enemy dragons while flying provides a ground immunity and fighting resistance (since scarf Urshifu has to use close combat to do meaningful damage to win the unfavorable match up otherwise), Tera Grass gives a ground resist and means that against rain teams you can now beat the one enemy that gives you trouble, Mega Swampert, Tera Fire allows you to fry Ferrothorn instantly, Tera Ice gives bolt beam coverage and can be used to strategically remove certain enemies like Landorus, Gliscor and Garchomp among others, Tera Steel ensures you can beat most variants of Tapu Lele and finally Tera Electric or Dragon can be used at the cost of defensive utility to instead power up your STAB types.
Also worth noting that none of the ground types are entirely 100% safe fighting this Pokemon at full HP and that if given the right tools it can break past its checks. Iron Threads and Clodsire are probably the best since the former has the Mega Steelix typing (who itself while niche is also good against Bolt) that allows you to resist both STABs and against non Dragonium Z sets Clodsire can hold off Raging Bolts attacks (but repeated draco meteors sting since unaware makes you take extra damage, and under sun it's even worse.)
252+ SpA Protosynthesis Raging Bolt Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Clodsire: 228-268 (49.2 - 57.8%) -- 59% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
The ability to match up against a lot of relevant threats in the metagame plus its good characteristics means that Raging Bolt plays a very valuable role in OU that must be accounted for. Let's also not forget that things that you would think can beat it like Clefable, Blissey and Ferrothorn are vulnerable to getting taunted... though at least Clefable stacks moonblast to deny free set up non-unaware sets.
In terms of teras, there are also a lot more possibilities mentioned. Fairy is great defensively since it makes you immune to enemy dragons while flying provides a ground immunity and fighting resistance (since scarf Urshifu has to use close combat to do meaningful damage to win the unfavorable match up otherwise), Tera Grass gives a ground resist and means that against rain teams you can now beat the one enemy that gives you trouble, Mega Swampert, Tera Fire allows you to fry Ferrothorn instantly, Tera Ice gives bolt beam coverage and can be used to strategically remove certain enemies like Landorus, Gliscor and Garchomp among others, Tera Steel ensures you can beat most variants of Tapu Lele and finally Tera Electric or Dragon can be used at the cost of defensive utility to instead power up your STAB types.
Roaring Moon has not been unbanned. 
Anyways moving forward I don't see too many needed suspect tests besides dream stan Ogerpon-wellspring as it just is very restrictive.
Anyways moving forward I don't see too many needed suspect tests besides 
Roaring Moon has not been unbanned.dream stanOgerpon-wellspring as it just is very restrictive.
Thank god. I can finally enjoy the tier again.
I mostly agree with the above comment in that I don't see the need for many more suspect tests at the moment. And I certainly think we don't need any more unban suspect tests. I just went through the list of NDUbers mons and I do not believe any of them belong in NDOU.
This madness where we are trying to unban Ubers mons has got to stop before we do irreversible harm to the tier. Our actions have very real consequences for the metagame's health, and just because you (the proverbial reader, for clarity) want to have a clickmachine that 6-0s off of team preview doesn't mean that everyone wants to fight against it. Everything in Ubers was put there for a reason.
Something being bad in Ubers means nothing for its fitness for NDOU. Bad in ubers means bad compared to what? Primal Groudon? Mega Rayquaza? Zacian-Crowned? Is that really the litmus test you want to use to determine NDOU fitness? This argument for unbanning is ridiculous.
Roaring Moon was the least bad thing we could have tried to unban, and it was still extremely broken for the tier. We don't need to go further.
I can see why you'd want to ban
. It feels really dumb to play against it and everything that walls it is really passive. I don't feel super strongly about a ban for it one way or another, honestly. The tier is playable with it here, but I think the game might be a little bit better without it. And I don't think banning it would cause some great harm to the tier. I could be on board with a suspect for it for sure.I think we have bigger fish to fry, but I'd rather fry a small fish than fry no fish.
moon's gone 
anyways I'm honestly pretty happy with how ND meta is currently, there's some stuff that's definitely stupid (cough cough waterpon) but I don't have any major issues with the tier. however that doesn't mean I don't want any suspects currently, as there's some pokemon I think deserve to be looked at
This pokemon's pretty stupid. Grass/Water is respectable defensively, and its able to set up on like half the tier with swords dance and just start clicking buttons. The last slot on this guy is pretty crazy and can drastically change what its checked by, on top of just being able to nautrally outspeed a large portion of the metagame and deal insane damage with cudgel + mask boost.
yeah we did this one before but I could fathom a world in which we sus zama. I'm not annoyed that its in the tier, but since we just nuked like half our ghost types it feels like idbp runs over a lot of teams on preview, especially with good use of tera
honestly that's about it, for the most part I think the tier's in a good spot, and I could definitely live with this current meta for the forseeable future. I think the current ubers list is good and there's nothing I think would be remotely balanced in ou, so please focus on dealing with some stinky mons before adding any more
anyways I'm honestly pretty happy with how ND meta is currently, there's some stuff that's definitely stupid (cough cough waterpon) but I don't have any major issues with the tier. however that doesn't mean I don't want any suspects currently, as there's some pokemon I think deserve to be looked at
This pokemon's pretty stupid. Grass/Water is respectable defensively, and its able to set up on like half the tier with swords dance and just start clicking buttons. The last slot on this guy is pretty crazy and can drastically change what its checked by, on top of just being able to nautrally outspeed a large portion of the metagame and deal insane damage with cudgel + mask boost.
yeah we did this one before but I could fathom a world in which we sus zama. I'm not annoyed that its in the tier, but since we just nuked like half our ghost types it feels like idbp runs over a lot of teams on preview, especially with good use of tera
honestly that's about it, for the most part I think the tier's in a good spot, and I could definitely live with this current meta for the forseeable future. I think the current ubers list is good and there's nothing I think would be remotely balanced in ou, so please focus on dealing with some stinky mons before adding any more
I would like to discuss the current state of Moody and hear your opinion on whether it should remain banned in this tier.
Since gen8, Moody no longer affects evasion, which was the main reason it was considered anti-competitive in the past. The removal of the Dynamax mechanic, which allowed for increased boosts, also doesn't favor Moody users.
In the current meta, as long as Baton Pass remains banned, I don't see how Moody can be a problem. First of all, every Moody user is RU right now. Besides, power creep has introduced many mons that can immediately respond to a Moody user, including those with Quark Drive/Protosynthesis and Zamazenta, which receive an instant boost. Furthermore, there are other offensive alternatives, such as moves that ignore stat changes (Surging Strikes in Urshifu, Sacred Sword in Boulder, Kart, and H-Samu, Flower Trick in Meowscarada...).
On the defensive side, there are numerous responses. Gen9 has brought reliable new unaware users (Clodsire, Dondozo, Skel), and there are still good phazers (Ting, Skarm). Additionally, in the current meta, several Pokémon can use Haze (like Clod, Pex, or Fini).
Unlike other abilities like Speed Boost, there are no Moody users that can learn Stored Power or Power Trip (except Smeargle), significantly reducing the possibility of abusing stat boosts. Moreover, classic Moody sets have a lesser impact in this tier. Disable may be effective against choice items, but it doesn't affect booster energy users too much. On the other hand, new multi-hit moves like Tachyon Cutter help deal with Substitute.
In conclusion, I believe Moody in NatDex is not as threatening as to justify its ban. What are your thoughts?
Since gen8, Moody no longer affects evasion, which was the main reason it was considered anti-competitive in the past. The removal of the Dynamax mechanic, which allowed for increased boosts, also doesn't favor Moody users.
In the current meta, as long as Baton Pass remains banned, I don't see how Moody can be a problem. First of all, every Moody user is RU right now. Besides, power creep has introduced many mons that can immediately respond to a Moody user, including those with Quark Drive/Protosynthesis and Zamazenta, which receive an instant boost. Furthermore, there are other offensive alternatives, such as moves that ignore stat changes (Surging Strikes in Urshifu, Sacred Sword in Boulder, Kart, and H-Samu, Flower Trick in Meowscarada...).
On the defensive side, there are numerous responses. Gen9 has brought reliable new unaware users (Clodsire, Dondozo, Skel), and there are still good phazers (Ting, Skarm). Additionally, in the current meta, several Pokémon can use Haze (like Clod, Pex, or Fini).
Unlike other abilities like Speed Boost, there are no Moody users that can learn Stored Power or Power Trip (except Smeargle), significantly reducing the possibility of abusing stat boosts. Moreover, classic Moody sets have a lesser impact in this tier. Disable may be effective against choice items, but it doesn't affect booster energy users too much. On the other hand, new multi-hit moves like Tachyon Cutter help deal with Substitute.
In conclusion, I believe Moody in NatDex is not as threatening as to justify its ban. What are your thoughts?
For a moment, I would like you to imagine your Tachyon Cutter failing to break sub on the first hit because your opponent got a lucky special defense boost the turn prior, and now the stat boosts snowball into an unwinnable nightmare. Your Haze mon gets OHKOed by the lucky SpA boost and now, you lost this game by no fault of your own.
This is the reality you are suggesting. Moody is too unpredictable and causes wins and losses based on RNG as opposed to player skill. I don't think that sounds like a fun metagame.
But if now is the time for ultra hot takes, I would like to participate.
I think we should suspect
because AFAIK 
has no counters. I will rescind my argument if someone can provide me some viable ones.I'd like to point out the main reason moody is banned is not due to being broken (even though it is) it is banned due to being insanely uncompetetive get the right moody boost and you do basically whatever you want and it's just not good for the tier, no one wants more bullshit cheese that wins games that it shouldn't, we have enough of that already.
yo dude uh it dies to a big bite from Caterpie. In less joking fashion it's bulk is just terrible... It dies to basically any strong neutral hit you can't really beat it defensively but it's just that against any offensive team it just doesn't do much.But if now is the time for ultra hot takes, I would like to participate.
I think we should suspect
Given the definition of a counter being
Has the longevity to switch into repeated attacks and force it out
I can't think of any in NDOU. Doesn't feel healthy to negate whole teamstyles with a mon since there's no defensive counterplay. To be clear, I don't think it's necessarily overpowered, I just don't like how it completely shuts down all forms of a core playstyle.
But like I said. It was a really hot take, and I understand that the majority of people are not going to agree. I 100% respect that and am still very open to changing my opinion here when provided new evidence.
If nothing else I hope that this discussion leads to someone posting a viable counter I can use for this thing. I hate fat teams feeling like a matchup fish because of it.
How are we gonna suspect a mon thats not even on the VR...For a moment, I would like you to imagine your Tachyon Cutter failing to break sub on the first hit because your opponent got a lucky special defense boost the turn prior, and now the stat boosts snowball into an unwinnable nightmare. Your Haze mon gets OHKOed by the lucky SpA boost and now, you lost this game by no fault of your own.
This is the reality you are suggesting. Moody is too unpredictable and causes wins and losses based on RNG as opposed to player skill. I don't think that sounds like a fun metagame.
But if now is the time for ultra hot takes, I would like to participate.
I think we should suspect
I'm fully aware that it's a pipe dream. I'd like it banned, yes, and I think that would be good. But I know it almost certainly won't happen so I'm not gonna scream about it forever and ever. I'm gonna be focusing my effort on discussing the more realistic problems to solve, but I did want to at least say my piece about it, hear what others had to say, and maybe understand better why people feel the way they do about it.
Hoopa is just in no way broken by any means at all. Banded sets, while having limited switch-ins, are relatively easy to deal with. If you cant force it regularly and make progress on the rest of their team(thereby rendering Hoopa unusable since it no longer has those partners to pivot in and out of), then that's your team's problem, not the mon. Sure, it can stallbreak and force huge progress on core teams, but at the same time it gets threatened by nearly EVERYTHING-- it can't live a hit at all. So basically it's a glass cannon, but a slow and manageable one at that. It has the power, but can only rely on teammates for backup.
Hoopa is just in no way broken by any means at all. Banded sets, while having limited switch-ins, are relatively easy to deal with. If you cant force it regularly and make progress on the rest of their team(thereby rendering Hoopa unusable since it no longer has those partners to pivot in and out of), then that's your team's problem, not the mon. Sure, it can stallbreak and force huge progress on core teams, but at the same time it gets threatened by nearly EVERYTHING-- it can't live a hit at all. So basically it's a glass cannon, but a slow and manageable one at that. It has the power, but can only rely on teammates for backup.
I appreciate you taking the time to write this out and provide some discussion about
's counterplay. I will be trying out some new ideas soon to handle it, and if I can get a workable solution, I will probably change my mind.If I may ask, do you know anything able to stall it out?
just use bulky dark type, max Def mandibuzz can easily tank banded hoopa and click u-turnI appreciate you taking the time to write this out and provide some discussion about
If I may ask, do you know anything able to stall it out?
I mean, Mandibuzz is literally never seen in competitive gameplay, but you can force it out easily using just defensive Landorus. Forgot to mention but part of why it's threatened so much is because of an absolutely horrible defensive typing and overall bad-average defensive stats. Psychic/Dark has no resistances, and a 4x weak to one of the most common moves in the game. Although Landorus takes ~40 by a Tera Dark Banded Hyperspace Fury, iirc. Be careful with that mon.
Unless for some ungodly reason ur still playing hipposkarm ur not running mandibuzz.
If there is a plan to retest more mons, maybe we can give 
and 
a try. Less sure on since it got some big buffs this generation, but there is little reason to assume will be too OP imo. The main set I see as being problematic is offensive sets since they may be a bit much to deal with on Psyterrain with lele support. Z-Moves may also push Nasty Plot sets over the edge as well. That being said, this tier also has plenty of fast mons that can keep up with its speed tier, such as :Barrakewda: under rain, 
, 
, and the various 
mons like 
, 
, and 
, not to mention strong priority from the likes of 
, 
, 
, 
etc. Supportive sets would more than likely not be much better than existing options such 
, 
, 
, or 
imo.
and a try. Less sure on since it got some big buffs this generation, but there is little reason to assume will be too OP imo. The main set I see as being problematic is offensive sets since they may be a bit much to deal with on Psyterrain with lele support. Z-Moves may also push Nasty Plot sets over the edge as well. That being said, this tier also has plenty of fast mons that can keep up with its speed tier, such as :Barrakewda: under rain, , , and the various mons like , , and , not to mention strong priority from the likes of , , , etc. Supportive sets would more than likely not be much better than existing options such , , , or imo.Okay I slapped dark tera on my Tangrowth and it seems decent enough to handle Hoopa. Thanks for the tips yall, and I rescind my previous statement. I have found a viable counter to the mon and have changed my opinion on suspecting it.
i see this talked about a lot in PS and discord but never on smogon (unless im just blind) so here we go
thing is absolutely insane, fastest unboosted mon in the meta with a powerful cc that shreds anything neutral, free defense boost lets it soft check stuff like weavile lop lando etc; in short it switches in super easily and makes progress every time it comes it, maybe not to the extent of stuff like medicham or luna but it makes of for raw power with speed, above average natural bulk and a lot of set variety
first of all boots 4a, on top of having to deal with cc it has so much coverage that it hits almost every relevant defensive piece for super effective damage, think ice fang for lando glisc and maybe tusk, sedge for zapdos torn and moltres (hi adem), and heavy slam / iron head for fairies (not exactly defensive) e.g. lele valiant mdia, or you can also try crunch for glowking and mlatis
boots help out a lot since you can play more aggressively rather than stopping momentum to clear hazards, especially since no one is knocking a zama to the face unless its on the switch
tbf glowking mola and pex check it really well, although crunch and wild charge exist they dont deal enough to beat regen
252 Atk Zamazenta Ice Fang vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-Therian: 208-248 (54.4 - 64.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Zamazenta Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 40 Def Tornadus-Therian: 238-280 (65.7 - 77.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Zamazenta Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Lele: 314-370 (111.7 - 131.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
band honestly has fallen out of favour, but then we have rockium / electrium
really feels like one of the best lures in the meta, just bait some poor flying type and nuke it from full
252 Atk Zamazenta Continental Crush (180 BP) vs. 248 HP / 184+ Def Zapdos: 316-374 (82.5 - 97.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Zamazenta Continental Crush (180 BP) vs. 252 HP / 40 Def Tornadus-Therian: 424-500 (117.1 - 138.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
rockium generally better but electrium also nukes pex mola
252 Atk Zamazenta Gigavolt Havoc (175 BP) vs. 248 HP / 212+ Def Toxapex: 198-234 (65.3 - 77.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Zamazenta Gigavolt Havoc (175 BP) vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 300-354 (63.5 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
minimal chip and they just die
and then idbp... dont even have to talk about this one
thing is absolutely insane, fastest unboosted mon in the meta with a powerful cc that shreds anything neutral, free defense boost lets it soft check stuff like weavile lop lando etc; in short it switches in super easily and makes progress every time it comes it, maybe not to the extent of stuff like medicham or luna but it makes of for raw power with speed, above average natural bulk and a lot of set variety
first of all boots 4a, on top of having to deal with cc it has so much coverage that it hits almost every relevant defensive piece for super effective damage, think ice fang for lando glisc and maybe tusk, sedge for zapdos torn and moltres (hi adem), and heavy slam / iron head for fairies (not exactly defensive) e.g. lele valiant mdia, or you can also try crunch for glowking and mlatis
boots help out a lot since you can play more aggressively rather than stopping momentum to clear hazards, especially since no one is knocking a zama to the face unless its on the switch
tbf glowking mola and pex check it really well, although crunch and wild charge exist they dont deal enough to beat regen
252 Atk Zamazenta Ice Fang vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-Therian: 208-248 (54.4 - 64.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Zamazenta Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 40 Def Tornadus-Therian: 238-280 (65.7 - 77.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Zamazenta Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Lele: 314-370 (111.7 - 131.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
band honestly has fallen out of favour, but then we have rockium / electrium
really feels like one of the best lures in the meta, just bait some poor flying type and nuke it from full
252 Atk Zamazenta Continental Crush (180 BP) vs. 248 HP / 184+ Def Zapdos: 316-374 (82.5 - 97.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Zamazenta Continental Crush (180 BP) vs. 252 HP / 40 Def Tornadus-Therian: 424-500 (117.1 - 138.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
rockium generally better but electrium also nukes pex mola
252 Atk Zamazenta Gigavolt Havoc (175 BP) vs. 248 HP / 212+ Def Toxapex: 198-234 (65.3 - 77.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Zamazenta Gigavolt Havoc (175 BP) vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 300-354 (63.5 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
minimal chip and they just die
and then idbp... dont even have to talk about this one