Preferably with Tera gone, but Galarian Darmanitan and Heartflame Ogerpon.
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Metagame National Dex Metagame Discussion
- Thread starter Nashrock
- Start date
Horrible, horrible take. Darmanitan-Galar was one of the most obscenely broken mons to ever be permitted in a non-Ubers format.
That's your opinion, I would rather a mon be retested every Generation than for it to be assumed broken only for it to be Mid when we finally decide we want to test it/drop it. This is also known as the Blaziken Method.
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Rotom wash does lowkey wall the hell out of darm but I’m more concerned about hearthflame like I used to terrorize people with that idk if it’s the Tera that pushed it over the edge though like mold breaker with swords dance fire grass stab with play rough is just disgusting
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Mate, we don’t need to spend time testing stuff that’s obscenely broken, like a 140 base Attack monster that can either double its Attack stat with CB to annihilate defensive teams or get both CB and Scarf to outrun and kill offense. This would effectively pigeonhole every team into running Dondozo or Alo (I don’t even know if Alo can take CB + G-Tactics Icicle Crash without being 2HKOed. I’ll calc it soon.)
yeah man, lets give an 160 atk mon the worst offensive typing and an ability that forces it to do nothing every other turn(
), but lets also give an 140 atk mon the best offensive typing and the ability to multiply its atk by 1.5x when it comes on the field!
252+ Atk Choice Band Gorilla Tactics Tera Ice Darmanitan-Galar Icicle Crash vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 201-237 (42.5 - 50.2%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Gorilla Tactics Tera Ice Darmanitan-Galar Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 244+ Def Rotom-Wash: 167-197 (54.9 - 64.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
u sure thats a wall?
), but lets also give an 140 atk mon the best offensive typing and the ability to multiply its atk by 1.5x when it comes on the field!nah, its not even 2x. the multiplier for cb+gtactics is 2.25x LOL. yeah pls keep it banned. not to say every damn move is a predict bc if you go pex or tran to resist that icicle crash, and you get hit with an eq, no matter how bulky you are you are dying. every move is a play w/ that mon around, its ohko or no ohko. and theres tera here too. why would u want it susd. ndou would cripple like an elderly man.
252+ Atk Choice Band Gorilla Tactics Tera Ice Darmanitan-Galar Icicle Crash vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 201-237 (42.5 - 50.2%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Gorilla Tactics Tera Ice Darmanitan-Galar Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 244+ Def Rotom-Wash: 167-197 (54.9 - 64.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
u sure thats a wall?
Long, long ago, there was time, where the National Dex we knoe todat, was chaos. The tier was being devoured by monsters like, an alien, a duo of ghost, and a sneaky bug with a ballon on hand and hiding under a plushie, and much more. The National Dex council had to act quick in order to safe the tier from utter chaos, so they sended a Ban Wave in order to eliminate all these problems inbone swoop. But among theses, an unfortunate victim, was caught in the storm, that my friends, was Roaring Moon. Many of us believed it to be a mistake, as Roaring Moon did no harm. For months, people of the natdex village prayed to Arceus, and begged to bring them there idol dragon back from the dead. But then, those prayers were answered, as in a moment's notice, Roaring Moon was brought back to the OU tier. But was this truly an innocent mon, or a wolf dressed as a sheep?
I'm pretty sure we are aware of Roaring moon's suspect test, and it's rather unclear if it's going to stick around or not. There is no denying its power in the tier eithe, with gigantic attack, amazing speed, good typing. Not only that, but it being a paradox mon means it gets a boost on its highest stat either with a Booster Energy or under the sun. So you can go for max atk and speed to get a +1 attack under the previous conditions, or just invest on 220 atk, max speed and jolly, the 36 hp to get a +1 speed instead, which is even faster than a +1 Iron Valiant. This gives it different possible sets based on the playstyle. Under sun, it can either go for a Dragon Dance set or Choice Band. And under other teams like BO for example, it can apply an Acrobatics set with Booster Energy, which gives a solid neutral coverage tool. It canalso run Taunt on DD sets to shut down slower mons attempt to cripple it. Its also quite bulky, mostly on its special side, with 105 hp and 101 spdef, and while its typing is welcoming Tapu Lele and Iron Valiant, its typing does have some solid resistances, most notably to Fire and Water moves, and a Psychic immunity. And it can always fix its typing issues with Terastalization, since Roaring Moon is already pretty strong, it doesnt need to run an offensive tera as much as other mons would, thus it can run a defensive tera, most notably Tera Steel, which provides a Fairy resistance, a solid mono defensive as a whole, and a Toxic immunity. Of course it can run an offensive Tera as well, this is most notable in its Acrobatics set, where it enjoys the boost to the ladder.
So this leaves to the following, the pros and cons of Roaring Moon.
If it stays:
Pros:
-There are ways to manage it still, if not proto speed evs, it can be outspeed by scarfers like Iron Valiant and Tapu Lele. And if proto speed investment, then it isnt as hard hitting as the standard ev spread.
-Its typing can be exploited, Fighting, Bug and Fairy all give it trouble.
-It's DD set suffers a bit from the 4th move syndrome, assuming u run Acrobatics for example, you might end up lacking a certaing coverage option against a certain mon, and if you add Taunt, it can make it even rougher.
-The Energy Booster tends to be commital, if it switches out, it would lose its Proto stat buff.
Odds:(depends on how you see it)
-Gives Sun teams a really HUGE buff.
Cons:
-Taunt sets can ruin its defensive checks like Dondozo.
-Tera Steel can remove the Fairy issue.
-Proto Speed evs out runs Iron Valiant, usually a common revenge killer.
-Overall a bit restrictive, you have to consider it on the teambuilder on top of the other mons in the tier.
-Knock Off can be irritating to get around.
Overall, I feel pretty mixed, do in slight favor of banning it. (Slightly)
I'm pretty sure we are aware of Roaring moon's suspect test, and it's rather unclear if it's going to stick around or not. There is no denying its power in the tier eithe, with gigantic attack, amazing speed, good typing. Not only that, but it being a paradox mon means it gets a boost on its highest stat either with a Booster Energy or under the sun. So you can go for max atk and speed to get a +1 attack under the previous conditions, or just invest on 220 atk, max speed and jolly, the 36 hp to get a +1 speed instead, which is even faster than a +1 Iron Valiant. This gives it different possible sets based on the playstyle. Under sun, it can either go for a Dragon Dance set or Choice Band. And under other teams like BO for example, it can apply an Acrobatics set with Booster Energy, which gives a solid neutral coverage tool. It canalso run Taunt on DD sets to shut down slower mons attempt to cripple it. Its also quite bulky, mostly on its special side, with 105 hp and 101 spdef, and while its typing is welcoming Tapu Lele and Iron Valiant, its typing does have some solid resistances, most notably to Fire and Water moves, and a Psychic immunity. And it can always fix its typing issues with Terastalization, since Roaring Moon is already pretty strong, it doesnt need to run an offensive tera as much as other mons would, thus it can run a defensive tera, most notably Tera Steel, which provides a Fairy resistance, a solid mono defensive as a whole, and a Toxic immunity. Of course it can run an offensive Tera as well, this is most notable in its Acrobatics set, where it enjoys the boost to the ladder.
So this leaves to the following, the pros and cons of Roaring Moon.
If it stays:
Pros:
-There are ways to manage it still, if not proto speed evs, it can be outspeed by scarfers like Iron Valiant and Tapu Lele. And if proto speed investment, then it isnt as hard hitting as the standard ev spread.
-Its typing can be exploited, Fighting, Bug and Fairy all give it trouble.
-It's DD set suffers a bit from the 4th move syndrome, assuming u run Acrobatics for example, you might end up lacking a certaing coverage option against a certain mon, and if you add Taunt, it can make it even rougher.
-The Energy Booster tends to be commital, if it switches out, it would lose its Proto stat buff.
Odds:(depends on how you see it)
-Gives Sun teams a really HUGE buff.
Cons:
-Taunt sets can ruin its defensive checks like Dondozo.
-Tera Steel can remove the Fairy issue.
-Proto Speed evs out runs Iron Valiant, usually a common revenge killer.
-Overall a bit restrictive, you have to consider it on the teambuilder on top of the other mons in the tier.
-Knock Off can be irritating to get around.
Overall, I feel pretty mixed, do in slight favor of banning it. (Slightly)
I remember playing SS OU during the gdarm meta, and I can tell you that rotom-wash is not enough of a check - people used rotom-heat instead since u-turn otherwise chips you way too much (the mon does have a choice band ability alongside a 140 atk stat...), and the mon still was very easy to chip down with icicle crash, even from scarf sets. Obviously it's even worse if you try to switch into the choice band set or if it just uses tera (252 Atk Gorilla Tactics Tera Ice Darmanitan-Galar Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-Heat: 101-119 (33.2 - 39.1%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO)
Guys, we should suspect Kingambit in National Dex OU again. Seriously.
NatDex has been plagued by an onslaught of hyper-offense recently, with Stored Power CM+IDef Iron Crown being immune to Toxic and Stored Power often straight up OHKOing Special Walls through RESISTS. It can also use multiple Teras and sets to its benefit, such as Tera Ghost to be immune to Fake Out/CC from Medicham and set up Iron Defense, or Tera Water to patch up the weaknesses in its typing. It can also run more sets other than CM+IDef, including Sub (to beat Garg), Specs to surprise the opponent (although not as effective), or bulky Volt Switch pivot (outclassed but sure). It can also use Tera to tech past counters, such as Tera Blast Fairy for AV Hoopa-U, TB Fire for Steels (that don't already get nuked by Stored Power of course) and Wisp immunity, and Tera Electric to get past TWave shenanigans. It can afford to run so many different sets and teras when it cannot do so in the OU tier, all because in OU the omnipresence of Kingambit prevents Dark weak setup sweepers from getting any nasty ideas.
Apart from Mr. King there, Gouging Fire has also been quite popular on HO, since it is a Physical setup sweeper with a burn immunity. Usually, this guy does not get out of hand in OU, even with +6+6, since Tera Dark Black Glasses Sucker Punch from Kingambit chunks it for a respectable 50% at just 2 fainted. However, in NatDex, we have no such luxury, and we must hope Gouging Fire does not have Morning Sun, lest the puny 15% from Lopunny-M get healed off (Frustration doesn't even 2HKO). It can also use multiple different Teras, such as Tera Steel for Toxic, and Tera Ground to boost Earthquake damage and have a Thunder Wave immunity. Guess why it can use so many different Teras? Of course! Kingambit doesn't exist so it doesn't need to Tera Fairy for Sucker Punch! (also Dondozo is the only reliable check unless they pull out the Fire Spin Breaking Swipe tech)
Trick Room is kinda shit in OU since Kingambit somehow solos them, but in NatDex, counterplay is more limited. (now that I think about it only Protect can save you)
Alright so basically there are some really broken threats that cannot be checked (they both happen to resist Scizor BP), and so Kingambit should be suspected to prevent having to suspect those two guys. Kingambit does have Pursuit, but that is just a tool, allowing one to chip down HO threats more easily. Knock Off is also not quite so bad, considering that Megas do take reduced damage. The power level in NatDex has increased with the introduction of new mons in the DLC, so we should try to give Kingambit a chance (or else only Stall and HO are really viable in NatDex). With him, the only real loser is Stall, but there are enough tools to check him (if he uses other sets then he cant beat HO).
NatDex has been plagued by an onslaught of hyper-offense recently, with Stored Power CM+IDef Iron Crown being immune to Toxic and Stored Power often straight up OHKOing Special Walls through RESISTS. It can also use multiple Teras and sets to its benefit, such as Tera Ghost to be immune to Fake Out/CC from Medicham and set up Iron Defense, or Tera Water to patch up the weaknesses in its typing. It can also run more sets other than CM+IDef, including Sub (to beat Garg), Specs to surprise the opponent (although not as effective), or bulky Volt Switch pivot (outclassed but sure). It can also use Tera to tech past counters, such as Tera Blast Fairy for AV Hoopa-U, TB Fire for Steels (that don't already get nuked by Stored Power of course) and Wisp immunity, and Tera Electric to get past TWave shenanigans. It can afford to run so many different sets and teras when it cannot do so in the OU tier, all because in OU the omnipresence of Kingambit prevents Dark weak setup sweepers from getting any nasty ideas.
Apart from Mr. King there, Gouging Fire has also been quite popular on HO, since it is a Physical setup sweeper with a burn immunity. Usually, this guy does not get out of hand in OU, even with +6+6, since Tera Dark Black Glasses Sucker Punch from Kingambit chunks it for a respectable 50% at just 2 fainted. However, in NatDex, we have no such luxury, and we must hope Gouging Fire does not have Morning Sun, lest the puny 15% from Lopunny-M get healed off (Frustration doesn't even 2HKO). It can also use multiple different Teras, such as Tera Steel for Toxic, and Tera Ground to boost Earthquake damage and have a Thunder Wave immunity. Guess why it can use so many different Teras? Of course! Kingambit doesn't exist so it doesn't need to Tera Fairy for Sucker Punch! (also Dondozo is the only reliable check unless they pull out the Fire Spin Breaking Swipe tech)
Trick Room is kinda shit in OU since Kingambit somehow solos them, but in NatDex, counterplay is more limited. (now that I think about it only Protect can save you)
Alright so basically there are some really broken threats that cannot be checked (they both happen to resist Scizor BP), and so Kingambit should be suspected to prevent having to suspect those two guys. Kingambit does have Pursuit, but that is just a tool, allowing one to chip down HO threats more easily. Knock Off is also not quite so bad, considering that Megas do take reduced damage. The power level in NatDex has increased with the introduction of new mons in the DLC, so we should try to give Kingambit a chance (or else only Stall and HO are really viable in NatDex). With him, the only real loser is Stall, but there are enough tools to check him (if he uses other sets then he cant beat HO).
Guys, we should suspect Kingambit in National Dex OU again. Seriously.
NatDex has been plagued by an onslaught of hyper-offense recently, with Stored Power CM+IDef Iron Crown being immune to Toxic and Stored Power often straight up OHKOing Special Walls through RESISTS. It can also use multiple Teras and sets to its benefit, such as Tera Ghost to be immune to Fake Out/CC from Medicham and set up Iron Defense, or Tera Water to patch up the weaknesses in its typing. It can also run more sets other than CM+IDef, including Sub (to beat Garg), Specs to surprise the opponent (although not as effective), or bulky Volt Switch pivot (outclassed but sure). It can also use Tera to tech past counters, such as Tera Blast Fairy for AV Hoopa-U, TB Fire for Steels (that don't already get nuked by Stored Power of course) and Wisp immunity, and Tera Electric to get past TWave shenanigans. It can afford to run so many different sets and teras when it cannot do so in the OU tier, all because in OU the omnipresence of Kingambit prevents Dark weak setup sweepers from getting any nasty ideas.
Apart from Mr. King there, Gouging Fire has also been quite popular on HO, since it is a Physical setup sweeper with a burn immunity. Usually, this guy does not get out of hand in OU, even with +6+6, since Tera Dark Black Glasses Sucker Punch from Kingambit chunks it for a respectable 50% at just 2 fainted. However, in NatDex, we have no such luxury, and we must hope Gouging Fire does not have Morning Sun, lest the puny 15% from Lopunny-M get healed off (Frustration doesn't even 2HKO). It can also use multiple different Teras, such as Tera Steel for Toxic, and Tera Ground to boost Earthquake damage and have a Thunder Wave immunity. Guess why it can use so many different Teras? Of course! Kingambit doesn't exist so it doesn't need to Tera Fairy for Sucker Punch! (also Dondozo is the only reliable check unless they pull out the Fire Spin Breaking Swipe tech)
Trick Room is kinda shit in OU since Kingambit somehow solos them, but in NatDex, counterplay is more limited. (now that I think about it only Protect can save you)
Alright so basically there are some really broken threats that cannot be checked (they both happen to resist Scizor BP), and so Kingambit should be suspected to prevent having to suspect those two guys. Kingambit does have Pursuit, but that is just a tool, allowing one to chip down HO threats more easily. Knock Off is also not quite so bad, considering that Megas do take reduced damage. The power level in NatDex has increased with the introduction of new mons in the DLC, so we should try to give Kingambit a chance (or else only Stall and HO are really viable in NatDex). With him, the only real loser is Stall, but there are enough tools to check him (if he uses other sets then he cant beat HO).
I'm sorry, but I refuse to play rock paper scissors, meanwhile the opponent pulls out a gun. Kingambit was truly nightmarish, sure there were counters like Great Tusk, but those needed to be in good shape to avoid getting themselves into Sucker Punch range.
I'll admit, Stored Power can feel extremely difficult to deal with. But you dont need Kingambit to handle these, they usually have some weakness, either by statusing them or prevent their cheese with Taunt, Encore, Tricking a Choice Item, or the funny Tera Dark Clodsire. Sure these can be specific, but the mons that use Stored Power are usually pretty telegraphic, either Mew, Cresselia, Clefable, Iron Crown, Tapu Fini, etc. All are shut down by the previously mentioned tactics, and even without these you could realistically stop em on their tracks. They usually come in later in the game, so by putting enough pressure on the opponent, weather threw status spreading or setting up, you can keep up a good enough position where the big bad stored power mon shouldn't be much of a hazzle.
Gfire imo is more specific towards sun teams rather than HO, since it has much more competition over there. And even on sun it isnt as bad as one thinks, sure it has DD and fire stab to abuse flare blitz, raging fury or heat crash, but it isnt an autowin. For one 90 speed aint that great, sure it has DD, but most common scarfer can still out run it after a +1, like Tapu Lele, and even Scarf Landorus speedties with it. Dondozo also just...
(Skeledirge can also wall it as well, if it survived EQs from Baxcalibur, it can surely survive Gfire's)
And it also has competition for the Paradox DD mon on sun teams with the currently suspected Roaring Moon, do thats not garanteed to stay.
Also, about your defence on Kingambit dealing with Gorgeous Fire:
252+ Atk Black Glasses Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Tera Dark Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Gouging Fire: 262-310 (74.6 - 88.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Now you might take this as an excuse to unban it, since it wont take Gouging Fire out, but even then, it simply oppressed to much of the tier as a whole, and one felt like walking on eggshells to get aroung it's 50/50.
As much as I HATE Trick Room, Trick Room is really a matchup fish. Against aggresive teams it has a fighting chance, since most of there sweeper are frail, and flipping the speed tier on them can be devastating for them. However, against other teams it just aint cutting it. Stall can usually have mons that can play around them, Balance teams (as well as some stall teams) run Alomomola, who can soak up a big hit, Protect next turn, and even wishpass to keep your team alive. Trick Room also just can't play a long game. Most of the time u sack 2 Trick Room setters(Hatterenee and Cresselia) in order to get your onslaught going. But once those few turns are over, your left with 1 setter, Porygon 2, which while tanky, it can be played around. My favorite analogy to Trick Room is Fighting game Grapplers, where there usually slow and lack ways to get in, but once they do get in, they get rewarded with huge damage or landing an unblockable. But much like grapplers, Trick Room struggles to get going, sure it can demolish a team if every goes according to plan, but if it doesn't, its likely game over.
Hope I made myself clear.
Also this is without even factoring in tera, as Darm-G can tera ground to both lose its rocks weakness and gain stab on earthquake. It's got a ~50% chance to 2hko alo from full hp with no chip if its scarf. Even funnier though is how banded 2hkos dondozo from full hp every single time. It's just unreasonable to ask to suspect it back down because of how blatantly overtuned it is and unsuited for the metagame
blaziken was banned for like the past 4 gens prior to the test, and has actual reasons to why it was worse in nd than sm
gdarm was just banned last gen overwhelmingly, and now has a new tool to let it break better. if you want things to actually be tested down u need an actual reason and explanation, especially for something like gdarm who just last gen was banned. what you like is irrelevant to how things are tiered, nothing is going to be dropped just because u want to test something.
Guys, we should suspect Kingambit in National Dex OU again. Seriously.
NatDex has been plagued by an onslaught of hyper-offense recently, with Stored Power CM+IDef Iron Crown being immune to Toxic and Stored Power often straight up OHKOing Special Walls through RESISTS. It can also use multiple Teras and sets to its benefit, such as Tera Ghost to be immune to Fake Out/CC from Medicham and set up Iron Defense, or Tera Water to patch up the weaknesses in its typing. It can also run more sets other than CM+IDef, including Sub (to beat Garg), Specs to surprise the opponent (although not as effective), or bulky Volt Switch pivot (outclassed but sure). It can also use Tera to tech past counters, such as Tera Blast Fairy for AV Hoopa-U, TB Fire for Steels (that don't already get nuked by Stored Power of course) and Wisp immunity, and Tera Electric to get past TWave shenanigans. It can afford to run so many different sets and teras when it cannot do so in the OU tier, all because in OU the omnipresence of Kingambit prevents Dark weak setup sweepers from getting any nasty ideas.
Apart from Mr. King there, Gouging Fire has also been quite popular on HO, since it is a Physical setup sweeper with a burn immunity. Usually, this guy does not get out of hand in OU, even with +6+6, since Tera Dark Black Glasses Sucker Punch from Kingambit chunks it for a respectable 50% at just 2 fainted. However, in NatDex, we have no such luxury, and we must hope Gouging Fire does not have Morning Sun, lest the puny 15% from Lopunny-M get healed off (Frustration doesn't even 2HKO). It can also use multiple different Teras, such as Tera Steel for Toxic, and Tera Ground to boost Earthquake damage and have a Thunder Wave immunity. Guess why it can use so many different Teras? Of course! Kingambit doesn't exist so it doesn't need to Tera Fairy for Sucker Punch! (also Dondozo is the only reliable check unless they pull out the Fire Spin Breaking Swipe tech)
Trick Room is kinda shit in OU since Kingambit somehow solos them, but in NatDex, counterplay is more limited. (now that I think about it only Protect can save you)
Alright so basically there are some really broken threats that cannot be checked (they both happen to resist Scizor BP), and so Kingambit should be suspected to prevent having to suspect those two guys. Kingambit does have Pursuit, but that is just a tool, allowing one to chip down HO threats more easily. Knock Off is also not quite so bad, considering that Megas do take reduced damage. The power level in NatDex has increased with the introduction of new mons in the DLC, so we should try to give Kingambit a chance (or else only Stall and HO are really viable in NatDex). With him, the only real loser is Stall, but there are enough tools to check him (if he uses other sets then he cant beat HO).
I feel like you're giving HO too much credit here. Iron crown, while a strong setup sweeper, is also incredibly easily to pressure offensively due to how weak it is before boosting. It's also very easily checked by any pokemon with taunt, as it only having a single boost is really manageable. Standard gouging also gets farmed super hard by mola teams, as eq doesn't deal too much and mola can threaten debilitating toxics. Also once again this mon heavily loses to taunt lando, as you can either smack it with a super strong earthquake or taunt it to deny setup and recovery. Trick Room in natdex is perpetually a meme. It's best matchup is offense but even then it's pretty easily stalled out. Once hatt's fallen you can super easily just taunt the setters to deny room, as they're oftentimes super passive pokemon like cresselia or pory2. Hoopa-u as a setter is also just super easily dealt with, again, by taunt lando as a single u turn often outright ohkos it.
Kingambit in this tier was pretty overwhelming to deal with, especially with its access to pursuit, incredibly good physical bulk and solid typing. Supreme Overlord is a stupid ability, and when you factor in items like black glasses it can start to dish out insane damage, even without tera. Another thing I feel that flew under the radar for people about kingambit is how good it pairs with mola. Alomomola makes for a phenomenal gambit partner, as its able to keep it consistently healthy throughout a match, while gambit's lack of recovery was oftentimes the only thing keeping it in check. With mola in the tier Kingambit can force so much progress vs teams I think it'd be unreasonable to deal with, as short of putting Zamazenta on every team it's incredibly hard to check it. Another major thing is how the metagame's shifted between now and when it was banned. Darkrai's mostly replaced Iron Valiant, who Kingambit has a much better matchup versus due to being an easy switchin to dark pulse, and with Tapu Lele being more common than ever, Kingambit can pretty easily pursuit trap a large portion of the metagame. Its ability to effortlessly destroy mola/gking structures with a single swords dance and threaten incredibly strong sucker punches in a tier already somewhat hard-pressed to find dark resists.
Also I think it'd be bad form to suspect Kingambit back into nd. It got banned by suspect not even a year ago, and there haven't been any massive metagame shifts since then, so what warrants it being suspected? If tera gets banned then you'd be able to make a convincing case as to why it should be suspected back, but barring a third suspect of tera what has changed enough to show that it'd be ok?
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No, this stupid ass mon terrorized gen 8 and can break through all of its checks either via Hax or just sheer force
Not this generation, but next generation, I wanna suspect Landorus Incarnate.
This thing is strong, no doubt there, but it's not like it can withstand power creep forever. One day there will be better Ferrothorn that just won't be beaten by Landorus I and then we can have a metagame where the REAL Landorus can function.
This thing is strong, no doubt there, but it's not like it can withstand power creep forever. One day there will be better Ferrothorn that just won't be beaten by Landorus I and then we can have a metagame where the REAL Landorus can function.
Horrible take. For Landorus-Incarnate to have any chance of being OU, there needs to be multiple splashable mons with high special bulk that either have massive, massive Blissey-tier special bulk or resist or are straight up immune to Ground-type moves without being weak to its coverage. Right now, the only mons that fit the bill that aren't extremely niche options are Mega Latias, Chansey/Blissey, and Cresselia. History has shown that Gamefreak is unwillingly to design mons that can handle Landorus-Incarnate, so it shall likely remain Uber for the foreseeable future.
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Give that to Typhlosion and we can start exchanging numbers.
But in all seriousness, we do not need to suspect Garmanitan. The thing just hits too hard and has too much raw firepower (or ice power if you will.) Even without Tera, I don't see how that thing doesn't skyrocket to Ubers.
But in all seriousness, we do not need to suspect Garmanitan. The thing just hits too hard and has too much raw firepower (or ice power if you will.) Even without Tera, I don't see how that thing doesn't skyrocket to Ubers.
Ok, im tired of the classic "pls unban (fav mon locked in ubers) powercreep makes it fain down here, it would be fine and balanced". While this can end up being true in some cases like Darkrai, this wont apply to everyone of them. There is also the issue that we have a TON of strong titans in the tier already. Darkrai, Zamazenta, Roaring Moon via suspect test, Iron Valiant, Gouging Fire, Raging Bolt, Tornadus Therian, Tapu Lele, Ogerpon Wellspring, Mega Lopunny, Mega Scizor, Mega Latias, the list goes on. So adding more to the pot might end up ruining the dish(tier). Not that we shouldn't try, but we should be more in depth about it, rather than just "unban my favorite pokemon".
(Also no, Scovillain deserves it more)
I agree with this point. The only way having so many hard-hitting monsters in a single tier would be OK is if we have super chunky mons from Ubers that can take similar punishment, such as
, which ultimately spirals into a bunch of unbans and turning NDOU into budget NDUbers.I also agree with the sentiment that just because something is bad in Ubers doesn't mean we test it in OU. At least, that alone isn't enough. Because Reshiram is pretty terrible but should not be allowed to exist in OU since it just adds nothing that positive. And it is probably broken.
Probably.
Probably.
I agree with the above three comments. I do not like the changes we've seen in the tier in the last few weeks. We don't need yet more [insert ubers HO mon] in this tier. It's unstable enough as is with the sheer amount of offense. We don't need more.
Everything was going fine until we started listening to the people whose goal was to get their favorite Ubers mon unbanned, as opposed to making a healthier tier.
And no, don't bring back Kingambit. The tier instantly got better when it was gone, just like Gholdengo. Broken checks broken is not a good way to run a metagame.
Everything was going fine until we started listening to the people whose goal was to get their favorite Ubers mon unbanned, as opposed to making a healthier tier.
And no, don't bring back Kingambit. The tier instantly got better when it was gone, just like Gholdengo. Broken checks broken is not a good way to run a metagame.
There's something to be said that power creep does eventually mean that things that were Uber "could" eventually become tolerable for OU. But what we all need to remember, this is a trend, not a rule.
Speed Boost Blaziken and Mew were Uber for three generations in a row in various generations, Mega Mawile, Scolipede, Greninja and Celebi for one, Deoxys Defense and Darkrai for several as examples. Eventually, power creep hit these folks and they eventually reached a point where they were no longer overbearing to varying degrees. But they did not all become tolerable for OU at the same time and they all became tolerable at different means, whether that meant being outclassed, nerfed or just not being a presence that warped tiers.
It's not unreasonable to say that in the far future, things like Landorus I, Palafin, Genesect, Chien Pao, Iron Bundle.... they might end up joining OU for real. Power creep does catch up to a lot of Pokemon after a certain point. Something CAN drop to OU after enough time. What it really comes down to is whether or not specific meta game changes allow a certain Pokemon to not be broken. If Palafin for example had to make a kill to change form instead of just switch out, who's to say that it would be nearly as powerful as it is now? What if Chien Pat's ability to lower defenses was nerfed substantially? Maybe Landorus I faces a meta game where a new special wall is everywhere that it can't break reliably. Point is, metas do evolve and eventually it can reach points where something that was dominant no longer isn't.
Does this mean ANYTHING can drop to OU? Most certainly not. Nobody would complain if Mewtwo, Ho-oh, Rayquaza, Arceus, Zekrom, Xerneas..... stayed far far away from OU for the rest of time. Some Pokemon are just designed to not be allowed in OU. They are simply too strong and don't have sufficient checks without irreversibly warping OU into discount Ubers, or UU Ubers if you prefer. I mean, eventually Shaymin-Sky might reach a point where it is ''probably'' fine for OU.... but anyone who has had to play against Shaymin Sky knows how stupid it can be in a meta game, so that demon isn't dropping for a very, very long time, if at all.
We don't hold National Dex beholden to allow niches for Ubers folks that fall to power creep. It's more that it could happen if enough conditions allow for it.
Speed Boost Blaziken and Mew were Uber for three generations in a row in various generations, Mega Mawile, Scolipede, Greninja and Celebi for one, Deoxys Defense and Darkrai for several as examples. Eventually, power creep hit these folks and they eventually reached a point where they were no longer overbearing to varying degrees. But they did not all become tolerable for OU at the same time and they all became tolerable at different means, whether that meant being outclassed, nerfed or just not being a presence that warped tiers.
It's not unreasonable to say that in the far future, things like Landorus I, Palafin, Genesect, Chien Pao, Iron Bundle.... they might end up joining OU for real. Power creep does catch up to a lot of Pokemon after a certain point. Something CAN drop to OU after enough time. What it really comes down to is whether or not specific meta game changes allow a certain Pokemon to not be broken. If Palafin for example had to make a kill to change form instead of just switch out, who's to say that it would be nearly as powerful as it is now? What if Chien Pat's ability to lower defenses was nerfed substantially? Maybe Landorus I faces a meta game where a new special wall is everywhere that it can't break reliably. Point is, metas do evolve and eventually it can reach points where something that was dominant no longer isn't.
Does this mean ANYTHING can drop to OU? Most certainly not. Nobody would complain if Mewtwo, Ho-oh, Rayquaza, Arceus, Zekrom, Xerneas..... stayed far far away from OU for the rest of time. Some Pokemon are just designed to not be allowed in OU. They are simply too strong and don't have sufficient checks without irreversibly warping OU into discount Ubers, or UU Ubers if you prefer. I mean, eventually Shaymin-Sky might reach a point where it is ''probably'' fine for OU.... but anyone who has had to play against Shaymin Sky knows how stupid it can be in a meta game, so that demon isn't dropping for a very, very long time, if at all.
We don't hold National Dex beholden to allow niches for Ubers folks that fall to power creep. It's more that it could happen if enough conditions allow for it.
Will you assume there will be a point where GF realizes how bad the powercreep is? In this scenario, you're saying GF just keeps making more gens more offensive that the next, but in my opinion I think at some point they will cut back on the offensive generations and create something a little more passive. However, I'm not particularly sure about Lando I or Bundle's power in general(as I wasn't there during the time they were allowed), but I can understand why you would think that.
Realistically though, if GF makes a mon tankier than Eviolite Chansey, we all won't be playing anymore; at that point the franchise has completely shifted to catering to power for fans and not competitive standards and I think that aspect will die out by then.
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 0+ SpD Eviolite Chansey: 237-281 (36.9 - 43.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
(edit: didn't notice i had chan evs wrong but w/o boosts this is still rlly strong)
I think you have completely forgotten the idea that trends can fall. Obviously, a company's economics can skyrocket and continue rising in a trend, as you say, but the inevitable market crash will probably happen "at some point" and will absolutely plummet it's worth. Everything has an end, and that is the true rule you're ignoring.
All the mons you'v mentioned as examples is when the Pokemon meta wasn't necessarily as offensive, and now they're balanced. Mega Mawile is set back by its bad speed, bad defenses to setup and common weaknesses(meaning it can't really setup safely anyway). Gren is honestly quite mid now, mostly because of better defensive mons such as pex and the Battle Bond nerf. I don't really know about the other ones but Scolipede being Ubers has to be a joke, right?
In the idea that certain Ubers pokemon will be nerfed is based entirely on prediction, and from our experience we can't predict GF about competitive viability at all. You can't say we should unban whatever just because maybe it'll get a nerf. That's unreasonable as a statement itself.
In consensus, powercreep in pokemon is very real(
haha), but eventually there will probably be a limit, and you can't really make the argument of unbanning obviously broken Ubers pokemon by backing them up with the fragile statement that they eventually will.
Realistically though, if GF makes a mon tankier than Eviolite Chansey, we all won't be playing anymore; at that point the franchise has completely shifted to catering to power for fans and not competitive standards and I think that aspect will die out by then.
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 0+ SpD Eviolite Chansey: 237-281 (36.9 - 43.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
(edit: didn't notice i had chan evs wrong but w/o boosts this is still rlly strong)
I think you have completely forgotten the idea that trends can fall. Obviously, a company's economics can skyrocket and continue rising in a trend, as you say, but the inevitable market crash will probably happen "at some point" and will absolutely plummet it's worth. Everything has an end, and that is the true rule you're ignoring.
All the mons you'v mentioned as examples is when the Pokemon meta wasn't necessarily as offensive, and now they're balanced. Mega Mawile is set back by its bad speed, bad defenses to setup and common weaknesses(meaning it can't really setup safely anyway). Gren is honestly quite mid now, mostly because of better defensive mons such as pex and the Battle Bond nerf. I don't really know about the other ones but Scolipede being Ubers has to be a joke, right?
In the idea that certain Ubers pokemon will be nerfed is based entirely on prediction, and from our experience we can't predict GF about competitive viability at all. You can't say we should unban whatever just because maybe it'll get a nerf. That's unreasonable as a statement itself.
In consensus, powercreep in pokemon is very real(
haha), but eventually there will probably be a limit, and you can't really make the argument of unbanning obviously broken Ubers pokemon by backing them up with the fragile statement that they eventually will.
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I think you missed my point. I'm not suggesting that we should just test obviously broken Pokemon for the sake of it. Like I don't want Mewtwo in OU just because there might potentially be some OU Pokemon that could deal with it. That isn't enough. Like there are NU Pokemon that can probably blank some Ubers folks situationally but that are otherwise doo doo garbage.... looking at you Parasect.
Also the idea that Ubers Pokemon can end up nerfed is not entirely based around prediction. Look at both Aegislash and Darkrai. Both of which were nerfed and ended up falling into OU. It's not unreasonable to suggest it can happen again.
Also no, Scolipede was not a joke. It was banned from OU in XY. Look it up.
Of course Game Freak could suddenly decide to make less offensive Pokemon, but I somehow doubt that. Offensive power creep seems more likely to spread than defensive power creep. But even if it did somehow become more defensive, that only means that indeed Pokemon that were overbearing once could indeed become tolerable in the future.
With some limits though, on that we can agree. I don't need to see the Pelipper/Torkoal weather war get replaced by the Groudon/Kyogre weather war, as funny as that sounds. At a certain point, logic has to take precedence.
Also the idea that Ubers Pokemon can end up nerfed is not entirely based around prediction. Look at both Aegislash and Darkrai. Both of which were nerfed and ended up falling into OU. It's not unreasonable to suggest it can happen again.
Also no, Scolipede was not a joke. It was banned from OU in XY. Look it up.
Of course Game Freak could suddenly decide to make less offensive Pokemon, but I somehow doubt that. Offensive power creep seems more likely to spread than defensive power creep. But even if it did somehow become more defensive, that only means that indeed Pokemon that were overbearing once could indeed become tolerable in the future.
With some limits though, on that we can agree. I don't need to see the Pelipper/Torkoal weather war get replaced by the Groudon/Kyogre weather war, as funny as that sounds. At a certain point, logic has to take precedence.
Quoted for posterity. You can never back out of this.
Look here and see the UUBL tag: https://www.smogon.com/dex/xy/pokemon/scolipede/
This shows you weren't even playing the tier during Gen 6, so you shouldn't make up stuff that never happened. Scolipede having an Uber analysis didn't mean it was literally an Uber mon, just that it had limited, if any, niche in OU.
Landorus-Incarnate as is right now is far above the power level of OU and is nowhere even close to being one of the best Uber candidates to drop to any version of Natdex OU, especially current gen Natdex OU where it gets Nasty Plot and would be even stronger than ever.
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