mmeta is def too strong but ladder would be funny with it during the sus so should drop it for 2 weeks
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Metagame National Dex Metagame Discussion
- Thread starter Nashrock
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why would we do that dude
that's Just losing time. mgross is broken, deal With it
most recent test was also a very useful use of time right
I Did Not support it, though.
yes actually. RM had been banned for most of the generation and never really got a truly fair shake especially as the tier changed over time. It was a good idea to test it and put theories about it being balanced or not to rest. Meta meanwhile has historically been too good for the tier, and only got better this gen with amazing new movepool addition while gaining almost nothing as checks outside like Dondozo (stall exclusive) and maybe Ting-Lu. And the latter has limited longevity and just would get overwhelmed by it long term.
There are better things to be doing than testing obviously broken mons.
Like fixing bugs (looking directly At NDAAA ladder) or Look At what's problematic, like zama. Or Raging bolt. Or ogerpon-w.
bulk, High BP priority, good combo of stab, And tera, And Dragonium, Or tra
did any of yall not read my post dawg i spent like 20 mins composing that
what the fuck are these takes. bolt, still on mmeta(??), zama, oger. bro. while some of these mons have issues w/ the ladder i feel like they are managable. The only take i see being somewhat relevant is idbp zama,; bolt is just
, ogerpon is actually interesting bc while power level is very high it can get walled by a rlly bulky grass type such as ferro or even tangrowth, also can be outsped relatively easily, while it does have respectful bulk theres things that stop it from being overcentralizing; we all thought is was omega broken but honestly there is counterplay. zama is a beast rn LOL idbp sets, band, 4a boots, fuck this mon whenever i play against it it feels like theres a nearing pressure collapse that will suck me and my family down a time-transcending black hole
what the fuck are these takes. bolt, still on mmeta(??), zama, oger. bro. while some of these mons have issues w/ the ladder i feel like they are managable. The only take i see being somewhat relevant is idbp zama,; bolt is just
, ogerpon is actually interesting bc while power level is very high it can get walled by a rlly bulky grass type such as ferro or even tangrowth, also can be outsped relatively easily, while it does have respectful bulk theres things that stop it from being overcentralizing; we all thought is was omega broken but honestly there is counterplay. zama is a beast rn LOL idbp sets, band, 4a boots, fuck this mon whenever i play against it it feels like theres a nearing pressure collapse that will suck me and my family down a time-transcending black hole
just run molt or zap and scout to see if its stone edge fr and just run pex for the idbp set ngl or skeledirge both workdid any of yall not read my post dawg i spent like 20 mins composing that
what the fuck are these takes. bolt, still on mmeta(??), zama, oger. bro. while some of these mons have issues w/ the ladder i feel like they are managable. The only take i see being somewhat relevant is idbp zama,; bolt is just
Dirge is B- on the viability rankings and Moltres C+, and both are pretty hard to fit on a team. While Zapdos and Pex are easier to fit on teams(A-), they also have to check the multitude of threats in the tier, meaning over the course of a game they will get chipped heavily and when Zamazenta comes in they might not have the HP/recovery left to wall Zamazenta, especially since it can Tera to avoid Toxics/Hurricanes. Furthermore, a lot of teams also just don't have Pex/Zapdos, as they are 43rd and 25th in usage, respectively.
Does Zamazenta have counterplay? Sure, and there's some mons that hard wall it, like Dondozo. But it's also a massive threat to the more offensive teams of the tier, able to outspeed the majority of them and pick up kills left and right, while IDBP sets can easily clean lategame once its checks have been sufficiently weakened. While I haven't decided on whether it's broken or not, I think it certainly doesn't hurt to examine its place in the meta.
viability rankings dont determine if something is good or not, its just the opinion of different players and if i see my opponent has a zamazenta it would be pretty easy to preserve the mon that beats it thats just common sense plus pex gets regenerator and yes dondo also walls it rlly hard same with clefable if they are running crunch and moltres just flat out beats it. It shouldnt be susd nor should it be considered broken, I would also like to know how its hard to fit dirge and moltres on a team?? I find that a very subjective claim which can differ how different players like to make their teams
The opinions of some of the best players in the tier, with community input, aren't a good measurement for determing a mon's viability?
Let's say your check is Toxapex. A safe check on paper, but what happens if your opponent pairs Zamazenta with Future Sight from Slowking-Galar? Suddenly, your supposed safe check cannot check Zamazenta because it gets blown up by the Future Sight.
Or let's say your check is Moltres/Zapdos? Except your opponent also brought Gliscor, which can soak any status, threaten Toxic/Spikes, and easily recover any damage you do, since you're forced to run a defensive set against Zamazenta.
Pretty hard, considering both offer free turns to the arguably best mon in the tier, Gliscor, as well as failing to check one of the most threatening physical attackers of the tier, Ogerpon-Wellspring. These mons aren't even safe checks to Zamazenta anyways: Tera Fire farms both of them.
What defensive counterplay is there? The only bulky grass that's actually consistent as a Oger check is Ferrothorn, Tangrowth is a very fake check as it doesn't do nearly enough damage. And even Ferro is potentially vulnerable to Encore+SD, as if Oger comes in on leech seed it can be locked into it and used as set up.
The VR exists as a result of both the input of the overall community as well as the experience of good players who work to make a resource available to everyone that gives a general idea of what is and isn't as viable (or viable at all), and while it's not infallible and prone to miss things because things can go undiscovered or be underrated, it's still a good place to go for information. Dondozo walls Zama but don is restricted to stall teams. Clefable gets slammed by Heavy Slam variants, and Moltres loses to sets with Stone Edge (particularly getting lured and ruined by Rockium Z sets).
Dirge and Molt are difficult to fit. That's not really subjective, that's based on experience with using them. Dirge is a pokemon suited for stall/balance teams, but runs into issues with low initial power, and that it tends to invite certain dangerous threats in rather freely (Heatran, ZardY, MegaDiancie, and more). Plus it has an aversion to knock off, and even things it should check like Mega Scizor or Iron Valiant run knock off which can cripple it. Moltres meanwhile is even more knock prone, and necessitates multiple forms of hazard removal so that it isn't losing 50% of its health when it takes rocks damage, which would heavily hinder its ability to check what it should be checking otherwise. And both fire mons give endless free turns to Gliscor who is not something you want getting free turns;
They're viable, but they're very niche and difficult to build around.
Mola is B+ so that tanks your point just by way of showing you didn't even check the VR. Half the of the players running the BR are overrated? And how are you gonna make that claim. What's that based on? Or is it just a you problem.
So you'll have counterplay not just to Zama but Zama+FS? If FS goes up, you're much more pinned in trying to check Zama? Also who said anything about IDBP+future sight? Zama has multiple sets and those do pair with FS, which will limit your ability to switch around it. Also your Bisharp example is bad and super disingenuous.
They're not just hypotheticals. They're common gameplay examples that happen, they're scenarios you should be prepared for which is why Firewizard brought them up.
It isn't that it's good on stall. It's that it's only really good on stall. Dozo is a terrible momentum sink and has horrid longevity with a lack of reliable recovery, being forced to rely on rest which is very abusable and only really something that can be covered for efficiently on stall. On balance it's just a poor choice over good bulky waters like Pex and Mola, who bring more to those teams either with pivoting or the ability to spread status.
Heavy Slam Zam is walled by ghosts? Good thing we don't have any viable ghosts in the tier. Oops. Also lol @ citing natdex ladder usage stats like they're worth anything most of the time. This is the same ladder that has left TornadusT, a terrific pokemon, out to dry in UUBL while somehow trapping garbage like Mega Banette in the tier, or also trapping junk like Glimmora. Ladder tends to spam cheesy set up strats on mons when they're available which is what IDBP style sets fall under. Ival knock off sets are very much relevant, as the mon is hyper versatile and thus it's something you must account for when building teams which is why Dirge isn't super reliable all the time into it. Gliscor has nothing to fear from Dirge lmao, because it's literally status immune with poison heal.
Will do. Sorry about that.
Well to get on something more productive, what are everyone's thoughts on Ogerpon Wellspring at the moment? Feels like the most potent breaker of bulky teams right now and I'm finding it rather difficult to really account for when building those teams, given its flexibility and rather wide movepool. I think at worst it's one of the best mons in the tier and brings a unique offense while also having rather remarkable defensive utility thanks to its ability. For those of you building balance, what are your go to Wellspring checks?
Well uh I basically build balance almost exclusively so I can probably answer this question. So basically recently I’ve been really into mega latias; twave sets are a good way to slow it down. Ferrothorn is…. Ok into encore sets but for sure isn’t walling it, even if it does carry encore. Another way I’ve usually checked wellspring to an extent is slapping fly z torn + pivot + speed control to pressure it, as it’s almost impossible to check defensively. Those are my main ways, but there are some other options as well. Sometimes I’ll run defog kart just for a good matchup into wellspring and at other points I’ll use a physdef oriented pex to haze away its boosts and have a semi shot at beating it. It’s even become so restricting to the point where my best option into it is my own waterpon + a Tera dragon mon like idk Corv or even Lando (if I’m running Tera dragon Lando for waterpon you know something’s bad).
Are these reliable answers? Not by a chance. This mon is broken and is able to cleave through all of its “checks” one way or another. But, even so, we still have to hold it off somehow and eh ways to beat it are better than none, for the time being. But even so please ban waterpon LOL
So I tried using a team with a six-mon core of Unaware COUNTER Clef (SD) + Lando-T (intimidate) + Rotom (water sponge) + Ferrothorn (punish whip into rotom + type coverage) to live hits, and use Dragon Slowking-G as emergency, even with TTar-M to pressure its main teammates that help beat its checks, YET I still haven't been able to check it. This team already struggles with some other threats (doesn't crumble to them but doesn't really beat them either, same with wellsprint) not including ogerpon-w, so being able to check oger must make a team highly susceptible to other mons.
Please suspect test it.
Tbf, your team puts pretty much zero offensive pressure on it and is completely unable to revenge-kill it, which is clearly going to result in a mon that learns SD+ Encore/taunt running you over.
I agree it needs a suspect, however your team really puts zero pressure on it and is a bit slow you need to put offensive pressure to beat it, you really don't beat a pokemon like waterpon in the way you seem to be trying to.
On a side note people who think mmeta should be unbanned do yourself a favour and do some calcs first and don't make a fool of yourself it's insanely broken.
I really don't get this post, and I hate to have to keep the discussion going but this post just...doesn't understand what IDBP Zama does or what it can do when paired with teammates.
I have literally never seen a Dondozo on balance. You cannot slap it on a team since it's such a massive momentum sink. Sure, it's bulky, but it's not doing much with that bulk. Dirge and Molt are low and difficult to fit for good reasons: they're deathly afraid of Knock Off from stuff they would otherwise check like Rillaboom and SD Val, and overall they don't contribute enough immediate offensive pressure in this metagame, leaving them outclassed but for a few niche situations. IDBP Zama has a few counters, yes, but over the course of the game they get worn down very easily and any good IDBP Zama team will deal with Pex before trying to outright win.
Anyways.
Waterpon is hella annoying and potentially broken, although it struggles to fit everything it needs to beat its counters. This is a dilemma that's come up a lot, and most of the time (IIRC) mons like this have been banned. I'll make a table of everything that checks what.
 4th moveslot | Checks |
Encore |  ,  (partially),  (partially),  (partially),  (partially) |
Superpower | ,  |
Play Rough | , |
Now of course I could be missing a lot of checks and most probably am, but these are the list of things that check it without Tera. Tera adds a lot more to the list, but overall forcing a tera or potentially straight-up losing based on the set seems like an unhealthy dynamic to me.
Late night musings while getting ready to snooze
Tapu Lele @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Psychic Surge
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
IVs: 0 Atk
Tera Type: Psychic
Timid Nature
- Psychic
- Moonblast
- Focus Blast
- Psyshock
I know it's generally agreed that Lele is the best speed control around, but it just feels so appreciable in a metagame where so few good scarfers exist and Booster Energy mons fail to be reliable longterm options for such a role. It's especially nice that tera psychic or fairy gives it some extra oomph to ease cleaning potential late game, or just allow it to push past certain pokemon easier. It's definitely one of the most reliable mons, and honestly one of the best mons in the tier atm. At least I think so.
Garganacl @ Leftovers
Ability: Salt Cure
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 Spe
Tera Type: Dragon/Water/Fairy
Careful Nature
- Salt Cure
- Curse / Iron Defense
- Recover
- Protect
Garg is good of course but I personally think this is one of the best ways to run it. It lets it have extra longevity and potential to stay on the field longer while also acting as a potential wincon and it can sometimes aggressively take over games if the opponent fails to respond to it quickly, or lacks ways of moving it. I'm mainly listing Iron Defense because I've seen some people put it to use, but I think Curse is better for denying Gliscor more while also wearing down pokemon faster with stronger Salt Cures. Tera type I think is just team preference and what you're running to cover weaknesses for it, but yeah. Especially after playing a game where the opponent also had this set and it basically became a PP stalling fest until one side ran out of recovery.
Ogerpon-Wellspring @ Wellspring Mask
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Tera Type: Water
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Ivy Cudgel
- Power Whip / Horn Leech
- Superpower / Play Rough / Encore
It's not exactly an unpopular opinion but I think Wellspring is arguably the best breaker in the tier, and I think the versatility it has is both good and bad for the tier. Good because it makes it remarkably splashable, and it's really something special how something this offensively inclined has such excellent defensive utility thanks to its ability. Bad however because it sometimes feels like it can sort of BS its way past a lot of its defensive checks. I've seen this mon even get past Ferrothorn with Encore, which really says a lot about how effective it is.
Tapu Lele @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Psychic Surge
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
IVs: 0 Atk
Tera Type: Psychic
Timid Nature
- Psychic
- Moonblast
- Focus Blast
- Psyshock
I know it's generally agreed that Lele is the best speed control around, but it just feels so appreciable in a metagame where so few good scarfers exist and Booster Energy mons fail to be reliable longterm options for such a role. It's especially nice that tera psychic or fairy gives it some extra oomph to ease cleaning potential late game, or just allow it to push past certain pokemon easier. It's definitely one of the most reliable mons, and honestly one of the best mons in the tier atm. At least I think so.
Garganacl @ Leftovers
Ability: Salt Cure
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 Spe
Tera Type: Dragon/Water/Fairy
Careful Nature
- Salt Cure
- Curse / Iron Defense
- Recover
- Protect
Garg is good of course but I personally think this is one of the best ways to run it. It lets it have extra longevity and potential to stay on the field longer while also acting as a potential wincon and it can sometimes aggressively take over games if the opponent fails to respond to it quickly, or lacks ways of moving it. I'm mainly listing Iron Defense because I've seen some people put it to use, but I think Curse is better for denying Gliscor more while also wearing down pokemon faster with stronger Salt Cures. Tera type I think is just team preference and what you're running to cover weaknesses for it, but yeah. Especially after playing a game where the opponent also had this set and it basically became a PP stalling fest until one side ran out of recovery.
Ogerpon-Wellspring @ Wellspring Mask
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Tera Type: Water
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Ivy Cudgel
- Power Whip / Horn Leech
- Superpower / Play Rough / Encore
It's not exactly an unpopular opinion but I think Wellspring is arguably the best breaker in the tier, and I think the versatility it has is both good and bad for the tier. Good because it makes it remarkably splashable, and it's really something special how something this offensively inclined has such excellent defensive utility thanks to its ability. Bad however because it sometimes feels like it can sort of BS its way past a lot of its defensive checks. I've seen this mon even get past Ferrothorn with Encore, which really says a lot about how effective it is.