SPOILERS! Mysteries and Conspiracies of Pokemon

It’s been a while since I’ve stopped in to this thread, but since I have about, eh, 20 minutes to kill until an unrelated Nintendo Direct starts today, I wanted to pitch in my thoughts on this Necrozma discussion. I can’t remember where or how to access the actual screenshot, but if you guys remember back to the sequence of Nintendo data leaks during 2020, you might recall that someone found evidence suggesting the existence of two 3DS titles that were most likely scrapped Kalos placeholder games. I’m not here to talk about Kalos games, though. You’re probably wondering, what the heck does that have to do with Necrozma?

Well, funny you should ask that. Turns out that those two reserved Kalos games weren’t the only interesting bits of information here. That is to say, most of the people who were following this data leak were focused enough on the scrapped Kalos games that they didn’t notice Alola also had some changes made. For the purpose of this thread, I am referring to the fact that what we know as “Ultra Sun & Ultra Moon” are actually listed as “Sun 2” and “Moon 2” respectively.

I still have a theory that true Alola sequels in the same vein as B2W2 was in the realm of possibility, but Game Freak changed their minds late into base Sun & Moon’s development and we got these games so they could move onto the Switch era faster and still have some momentum leftover from the Pokémon GO craze the previous year (which would eventually manifest in the form of Let’s Go in 2018). My point is, I feel like some of the unexplained plot points with Necrozma and its fusions might have gotten lost in transition from “true sequels” to “split third versions”. Of particular interest to me is the idea that, in theory, Necrozma’s Prism Armor could still be attached to other Pokémon not named Solgaleo and Lunala. Including- wait for it- Arceus. Think about this for a second- Multitype can be activated by Z-Crystals too, and Arceus in-universe can be seen as a bringer of light. I feel like there’s some untapped connections here. Maybe in the scrapped sequels, instead of Ultra Necrozma we would have gotten an Arceus/Necrozma fusion or something.
 
It’s been a while since I’ve stopped in to this thread, but since I have about, eh, 20 minutes to kill until an unrelated Nintendo Direct starts today, I wanted to pitch in my thoughts on this Necrozma discussion. I can’t remember where or how to access the actual screenshot, but if you guys remember back to the sequence of Nintendo data leaks during 2020, you might recall that someone found evidence suggesting the existence of two 3DS titles that were most likely scrapped Kalos placeholder games. I’m not here to talk about Kalos games, though. You’re probably wondering, what the heck does that have to do with Necrozma?

Well, funny you should ask that. Turns out that those two reserved Kalos games weren’t the only interesting bits of information here. That is to say, most of the people who were following this data leak were focused enough on the scrapped Kalos games that they didn’t notice Alola also had some changes made. For the purpose of this thread, I am referring to the fact that what we know as “Ultra Sun & Ultra Moon” are actually listed as “Sun 2” and “Moon 2” respectively.

I still have a theory that true Alola sequels in the same vein as B2W2 was in the realm of possibility, but Game Freak changed their minds late into base Sun & Moon’s development and we got these games so they could move onto the Switch era faster and still have some momentum leftover from the Pokémon GO craze the previous year (which would eventually manifest in the form of Let’s Go in 2018). My point is, I feel like some of the unexplained plot points with Necrozma and its fusions might have gotten lost in transition from “true sequels” to “split third versions”. Of particular interest to me is the idea that, in theory, Necrozma’s Prism Armor could still be attached to other Pokémon not named Solgaleo and Lunala. Including- wait for it- Arceus. Think about this for a second- Multitype can be activated by Z-Crystals too, and Arceus in-universe can be seen as a bringer of light. I feel like there’s some untapped connections here. Maybe in the scrapped sequels, instead of Ultra Necrozma we would have gotten an Arceus/Necrozma fusion or something.
Stuff like this is what I am hoping for in spinoffs. I have considered Divine Vessel Necrozma (cool name, right?), though my personal pick remains Eternatus.
 
It’s been a while since I’ve stopped in to this thread, but since I have about, eh, 20 minutes to kill until an unrelated Nintendo Direct starts today, I wanted to pitch in my thoughts on this Necrozma discussion. I can’t remember where or how to access the actual screenshot, but if you guys remember back to the sequence of Nintendo data leaks during 2020, you might recall that someone found evidence suggesting the existence of two 3DS titles that were most likely scrapped Kalos placeholder games. I’m not here to talk about Kalos games, though. You’re probably wondering, what the heck does that have to do with Necrozma?

Well, funny you should ask that. Turns out that those two reserved Kalos games weren’t the only interesting bits of information here. That is to say, most of the people who were following this data leak were focused enough on the scrapped Kalos games that they didn’t notice Alola also had some changes made. For the purpose of this thread, I am referring to the fact that what we know as “Ultra Sun & Ultra Moon” are actually listed as “Sun 2” and “Moon 2” respectively.

I still have a theory that true Alola sequels in the same vein as B2W2 was in the realm of possibility, but Game Freak changed their minds late into base Sun & Moon’s development and we got these games so they could move onto the Switch era faster and still have some momentum leftover from the Pokémon GO craze the previous year (which would eventually manifest in the form of Let’s Go in 2018). My point is, I feel like some of the unexplained plot points with Necrozma and its fusions might have gotten lost in transition from “true sequels” to “split third versions”. Of particular interest to me is the idea that, in theory, Necrozma’s Prism Armor could still be attached to other Pokémon not named Solgaleo and Lunala. Including- wait for it- Arceus. Think about this for a second- Multitype can be activated by Z-Crystals too, and Arceus in-universe can be seen as a bringer of light. I feel like there’s some untapped connections here. Maybe in the scrapped sequels, instead of Ultra Necrozma we would have gotten an Arceus/Necrozma fusion or something.
I believe these were originally known of since XY though without the exact names, since they have to specify what versions would show a blue pentagon. However I disagree that this implies these were actual sequels planned. Some interviews also made it clear that they didn't have time to add much and USUM was more meant to be an easier entry point for new/GO fans.

For one, the USUM placeholders didn't exist until January 2016, when they were ALOLA_RESERVE1 and 2. It was only until November 2016 that they actually got changed to SUN2 and MOON2.
1718724262284.png


We can also see from DebugPokeMakeCore.cpp that Gen 6 also had placeholders for X2/Y2/X3/Y3, with X2/Y2 getting replaced by ORAS. So overall I don't think these codenames particularly imply that these were meant to be actual sequels any more than just placeholder variable names.
1718724673893.png
 
I believe these were originally known of since XY though without the exact names, since they have to specify what versions would show a blue pentagon. However I disagree that this implies these were actual sequels planned. Some interviews also made it clear that they didn't have time to add much and USUM was more meant to be an easier entry point for new/GO fans.

For one, the USUM placeholders didn't exist until January 2016, when they were ALOLA_RESERVE1 and 2. It was only until November 2016 that they actually got changed to SUN2 and MOON2.
View attachment 641625

We can also see from DebugPokeMakeCore.cpp that Gen 6 also had placeholders for X2/Y2/X3/Y3, with X2/Y2 getting replaced by ORAS. So overall I don't think these codenames particularly imply that these were meant to be actual sequels any more than just placeholder variable names.
View attachment 641627
Okay, so. I've done some looking into this since you posted this, and If I'm picking up everything you're saying:
  • Base X & Y released as normal (relative to the rest of the 3DS catalog, anyway)
  • X2 & Y2 were placeholder names for the second pair of Gen 6 games
  • X3 & Y3 were placeholder names for the since-scrapped third pair of Gen 6 games
  • What was at one point X3 & Y3 are now known by their placeholder names of "Kalos_Reserve3" and "Kalos_Reserve4"
  • "Non-Kalos 1" and "Non-Kalos 2" replaced X2 & Y2 as the original placeholder titles for Omega Ruby & Alpha Sapphire
  • "Pokémon Delta Emerald" apparently never even existed from the very beginning (that's unfortunate)
  • "Holoholo" is almost certainly Pokémon GO
  • Base Sun & Moon released as the first pair of Gen 7 games like we all know
  • There is no "Non-Alola" here for the Gen 7 games, since the game that became Let's Go are Switch games and not 3DS games
  • "Alola_Reserve1" and "Alola_Reserve2" gained "Sun2" and "Moon2" as their own placeholder names
  • "Sun2" and "Moon2" either are or once were the placeholder names for Ultra Sun & Ultra Moon
Did I cover everything? That was a lot to think about. I imagine the reason they used "Sun2" and "Moon2" instead of, in this case it would be "S2" and "M2" is because the 3DS already had a game that started with S, that being (Alpha) Sapphire, so maybe someone at Game Freak thought that could be confusing or something.

Switching back to the topic of Necrozma now, with this information in mind I can see how the faster-than-expected release of the Switch, in part because of the Wii U's market failures, might have thrown off their original plans a bit. In the case of Necrozma, the stuff you said about newer fans and Pokémon GO may have either de-motivated them or persuaded them beforehand to not want to create B2W2-style Alola sequels. Such a game would probably have to have carried over into 2018, a year that instead saw the release of Let's Go, meaning that any extra ideas the developers had for Necrozma, its mechanics, and its story/lore were left behind. I can't be the only one who feels like certain areas like the Ultra Megalopolis and the Ultra Warp Ride had even more potential, and that's to say nothing of the existing Necrozma fusions and the concept of Rainbow Rocket feeling suspiciously "Black 2 & White 2" in their implementation. I doubt Necrozma would have fused with the other "regular" Ultra Beasts in any of the Alola games, but again, I don't see how or why the Prism Armor style of fusion couldn't be applied to other Pokémon, specifically other Legendaries and/or something like Arceus that already has an unexplained connection to Z-Crystals. (As an added bonus, that could provide an in-universe explanation for how the Aether Foundation came up with the idea of using Silvally and the RKS System as a method of neutralizing the Ultra Beasts.)
 
I don't think they were going to have Necrozma fuse with anything other than Solgaleo/Lunala and definitely not a Mythical more associated with another region even despite the ties to Type Null.
Branding!

Likewise I doubt a lot of their ideas were shortchanged by the Switch. I think they just didn't want to do sequels.



Also iirc Rainbow Rocket wasn't even the original idea; they wanted you to instead wander into them in the Battle Agency. Basically sounded like it was going to be an equivalent to the cameos in the Battle Tree
 
So an interesting thing to talk about with Pokémon designs. Namely, how designs and what goes into them has changed over the generations as the technology behind each generation's games has advanced and the fidelity has changed. At the basic level, 2D sprites vs 3D models is one thing, but 2D sprites are designed to look best in a static pose as you show expression in a drawn pose, and a sprite can be drawn in a variety of ways. The Pokemon from the older generations are designed with this strength in mind. Meanwhile 3D models shine best in animation, as you have a model that's designed to move around, such as when attacking or when moving around, same with facial expressions. And thus, many of the newer generation Pokemon look best in a 3D model and have design aspects that truly shine when the Pokemon is properly in action or moving around.

But how that's changed also changed over each generation, and the designs of the Pokemon from each generation really reflect what the particular generation was capable of, what had advanced, and thus each generation's Pokemon shine best in their debut game since they were designed with the advancements and capabilities of the tech on the platform at the time.

Going to use fully evolved starters, pseudo-legendaries, and boxart legendaries as my guinea pigs, but running down the list.

For Gen 1, aka Red and Green, the Game Boy was an 8 bit machine and monochrome, and the designs are in 2D sprites. The designs shine with 2D sprites in poses, but most of all compared to everything afterwards, the designs are fairly simple with not a lot of detail and relatively little variation in color. Mostly everything has just one prominent color scheme that stands out.







As you can see the designs are fairly simple, Charizard for instance doesn't have a whole lot of detail to its design, and Mewtwo and Dragonite are dominantly one color scheme.

Meanwhile for Gen 2, with Gold and Silver, the games were enhanced on Game Boy Color which has a color display...to a limited degree. This shows in the designs, which while still relatively simple, have a bit more variation in their color, often having a binary color scheme that contrasts in addition to use of black and white. They also seemed to experiment with a wider variety of dynamic poses in the sprites, as these designs can look good in multiple poses, with almost everyone having a different sprite for Gold and another for Silver.







As you can see, the color variation is a bit more diverse with these Pokemon than with their predecessors. Meganium, Typhlosion, and Feraligatr have a distinct color dichotomy and variation that really pops out compared to Venusaur, Charizard, and Blastoise. Tyranitar also has a green-blue contrast in its design, compared to Dragonite being almost entirely yellow.

Meanwhile, with Gen 3, Ruby and Sapphire was on the Game Boy Advance, which was a more advanced system capable of more color and better graphics than the Game Boy, but nonetheless still fairly primitive. Designs are still fairly simple, but there's now even more color variation than ever, and designs can be as many colors as they want.







It really shows with the starters and the legendaries in particular: Sceptile, Blaziken, and Swampert are fairly simple designs, but have more color variation, particularly with subtler contrasts in the variety of color schemes in their designs. Kyogre and Groudon also have more present colors in their designs than any previous "major legendary".

And then we get to Gen 4, with Diamond and Pearl, on the DS. The DS was capable of much greater graphical fidelity than ever before, with the DS capable of bringing the capabilities of 2D designs to its full potential that the Game Boy line of hardware could never reach. The result with Gen 4 in particular is that the designs became much more complex and full of small details everywhere, making these designs more intricate and complex.







The starters and legendaries in particular have much busier, complicated designs with a lot of small details here and there compared to what came before. Torterra, Infernape, and Empoleon have a lot of little bits of details across their entire designs, same with Dialga and Palkia.

Next we have Gen 5, a unique case and the last of the 2D sprites, with Black and White. These sprites are fully animated sprites with the sprites in constant motion. I think many of Gen 5's Pokemon accordingly have design features that truly shine when the Pokemon is in constant motion.







With Gen 5, a lot of aspects shine in constant motion and animation. Hydreigon is a simple case where its constant biting at something with its "puppet" hands is a design aspect that truly shines with an animated model, or something like Reshiram and Zekrom, where their glowing tails lighting up and turning on and off is something a static sprite cannot do.

That ended the 2D era, but then come the 3D era with Gen 6, and we moved on from sprites to 3D models on the 3DS. The 3D models are an interesting thing to talk about, but as I said, a model looks best in animation. Gen 6's new Pokemon shine with this, but not necessarily when walking or running, but they all have unique attack animations that show off different design aspects.








Above are the three starters in particular, who have design aspects that shine in a 3D model, like Chesnaught having a shield it can conjure with its arms when using Spiky Shield, or Delphox pulling out its stick wand at a whim when using Mystical Fire, and Greninja is just very dynamic and animable especially when firing Water Shuriken or doing a flip. Meanwhile something like Goodra shines in 3D with goo dripping from its hands, or doing attacks such as flipping its horns to throw a punch like with Power Whip, or swinging its tail like with Aqua Tail. Not to mention its incredibly dynamic and expressive face capable of expressing a variety of emotions both in and outside of battle, even moreso in Pokemon Amie.

Xerneas and Yveltal show their strength best in the cutscene in game, where they have ways to glow and move around and show off X and Y poses.

Then we get to Gen 7. The models are pretty much the same as in X and Y, but they started adding on fuller motion, namely full blown movement, not just movement in place like in Gen 6. Sun and Moon introduced walking and running animations for every Pokemon, and Z-Moves in particular invoke full blown movement sequences, especially signature ones. It really shows with the signature moves of the Gen 7 starters, Kommo-o, and the box legendaries.


A lot of videos to show it, but yeah. When in full motion, Alola's Pokemon look super clean. Especially when walking or running: something like Kommo-o or Incineroar looks really good when walking or running, meanwhile something like Tyranitar would look quite clumsy when walking or running, because it was designed to look good in a static pose.

Next we get to...Gen 8, with Sword and Shield. With the Switch being stronger than the 3DS, the fidelity of the designs has gone up again, to where multiple designs have more detail again but now visible from different angles instead of just up front. There's also more personalized attack animations for signature moves that show off different design aspects, like with the starters, Dragapult, and the wolves.


A lot of personalized signature moves that show off different details of different designs, and Dragapult's invisible tail or the wolves' designs shine a lot with more detail from various angles, not to mention certain aspects shine with their signature moves. Especially with the starters, even moreso when they Gigantamax and use their G-Max moves.

And finally, so far our latest generation is Gen 9, with Scarlet and Violet. For the models, we get new models with new textures. There's less focus on the animation part of a 3D model and more focus on the actual textures.

p06_01.jpg

p08_01.jpg

p10_01.jpg

FhOO75IXkBsBOzA.png

p02_01.jpg

p04_01.jpg

p06_01.jpg

p08_01.jpg

p10_04.jpg

It's a bit subtle but a lot of Gen 9's design look at their best with SV's new models and textures, especially with in-game lighting to highlight it. Baxcalibur's icy "helmet" and body shines with the textures and lighting to make it really look like ice. The Raidons look really good with those textures, with Koraidon really looking "ancient" and Miraidon looking "futuristic" with lighting and proper metallic textures.

---

A long rundown but you get the point with each generation.

Now the interesting "mystery and conspiracy" of all this is...what's next? Granted it'll be a while until the next generation especially since Legends Z-A is seemingly so far off and Gen 10 will have to wait until after LZA is all said and done, but after this I wonder what the next advancement will be, and how will the next generation's roster be designed in such a way that shows off the next level of fidelity for Gen 10's Pokemon games. Presumably it'll be on the Switch's successor at this rate, with that being even more capable than the Switch is. I wonder what's next for the advancements of Pokemon models, and how Gen 10's Pokemon designs will evolve in accordance with that to show it off. It'll be interesting to find out.
 
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Sometimes I wonder if the idea of a Pokespe anime adaptation has ever been floated around at TPC in any remotely serious capacity. Concept sketches/super preliminary storyboards locked up in some vault, or an internal trailer that went nowhere, that kinda thing

i find it unlikely. the original rgby arc was pretty popular, but it wasnt as explosive as the pokeani to compete with it. by gen 3, despite the arc popularity I think thats when the chance of an adaptation died, as pokemon really became a brand that started to concern itself with sycing its releases of games, anime, merch. adapting the older arcs would clash with that but the time spent to adapt rs would lead the anime to be off kilter from the other properties.

The second chance would have been this gen, as pokeani divorced itself from ash and is in a new phase. the new problem is that spe just isnt that popular anymore. SV has been a pretty good arc but a lot of readers fell off around gen 4-5 and those who didnt had to see the gen7 and gen8 arcs be pretty dogshit, so no one trusts kusaka to not fuck up sv
 
i find it unlikely. the original rgby arc was pretty popular, but it wasnt as explosive as the pokeani to compete with it. by gen 3, despite the arc popularity I think thats when the chance of an adaptation died, as pokemon really became a brand that started to concern itself with sycing its releases of games, anime, merch. adapting the older arcs would clash with that but the time spent to adapt rs would lead the anime to be off kilter from the other properties.

The second chance would have been this gen, as pokeani divorced itself from ash and is in a new phase. the new problem is that spe just isnt that popular anymore. SV has been a pretty good arc but a lot of readers fell off around gen 4-5 and those who didnt had to see the gen7 and gen8 arcs be pretty dogshit, so no one trusts kusaka to not fuck up sv
I think at this point the best shot is for the 30th or 35th anniversary when they inevitably inundate us with more Kanto Nostalgia, maybe they go back and do something truncated for it akin to Generations or the Origins mini-series, but focused on PokeSpe unique points like the Silph Co Raid and fused Birds, or the Yellow Arc with the Elite Four battles (since the Kanto E4 are surprisingly seldom used compared to the rest of the Kanto characters).
 
Also probably more pertinent is they probably don't want to muddy the waters. It is The Anime. It has direct line to GameFreak/TPC.
You can have little webisodes but those are smaller things that happen on the side (& also I believe have that direct line)

Adventures is its own thing. I'm sure they see it as something bigger than the other mangas, if only because it's the only one people outside Japan talk about, but it's still ultimately it's own manga that's doing it's own thing over there like most of the rest.

if they wanted to do a special for any of the mangas it'd probably be Pokemon Pocket Monsters aka That One With Clefairy, which is the first manga and probably gets more clout internally because of that (and also the only one that got a somewhat inexplicable cameo appearance in the anime).
 
i find it unlikely. the original rgby arc was pretty popular, but it wasnt as explosive as the pokeani to compete with it. by gen 3, despite the arc popularity I think thats when the chance of an adaptation died, as pokemon really became a brand that started to concern itself with sycing its releases of games, anime, merch. adapting the older arcs would clash with that but the time spent to adapt rs would lead the anime to be off kilter from the other properties.

The second chance would have been this gen, as pokeani divorced itself from ash and is in a new phase. the new problem is that spe just isnt that popular anymore. SV has been a pretty good arc but a lot of readers fell off around gen 4-5 and those who didnt had to see the gen7 and gen8 arcs be pretty dogshit, so no one trusts kusaka to not fuck up sv

This could be some sort of small scale Baader-Meinhof phenomenon talking but it does kinda feel like the SV chapter has slightly boosted interest? It's not a rejuvenating blockbuster return to form by any stretch but I dunno. I feel like in the Pokemon sites I frequent (+Discord before they locked me out of my account because they thought it'd be a funny prank I guess) there's been an itty bit of posting about the arc more than anything since probably DP. Namely Nemona and Scarlet yuriposting, but yknow. It's something. Not nearly enough to lead to widespread new calls for an adaptation of the series, but something. Same thing on Youtube, I swear I've seen a modest increase in attention and analysis for the manga, by which I mean I now get maybe 2 or 3 Spe-related videos recommended to me per year rather than 0. I think Serebii has even been posting updates on new chapter releases again, which they haven't done in eons.
 
This could be some sort of small scale Baader-Meinhof phenomenon talking but it does kinda feel like the SV chapter has slightly boosted interest? It's not a rejuvenating blockbuster return to form by any stretch but I dunno. I feel like in the Pokemon sites I frequent (+Discord before they locked me out of my account because they thought it'd be a funny prank I guess) there's been an itty bit of posting about the arc more than anything since probably DP. Namely Nemona and Scarlet yuriposting, but yknow. It's something. Not nearly enough to lead to widespread new calls for an adaptation of the series, but something. Same thing on Youtube, I swear I've seen a modest increase in attention and analysis for the manga, by which I mean I now get maybe 2 or 3 Spe-related videos recommended to me per year rather than 0. I think Serebii has even been posting updates on new chapter releases again, which they haven't done in eons.
glancing at serebii's website they never even made a SWSH section much less a SV section

rip
 
Back in gen 1, it was said that Ghost Pokemon were only gaseous Pokemon that resembles ghosts, rather than real ghosts. But in later gens, they seem more and more like real ghosts. (With more association with death, or suggested that the Pokemon is from a dead person)
In Gen I the only known Ghost Pokémon are the Pokémon of the Gastly line. The expression "Ghost Pokémon" can in that context thus be used to refer only to them.
 
Hmm, Bulbapedia used to have an explanation but now it's gone. Let's see what I can come up with:

Protein: A few of Protein's functions in the body is having it react and respond to stimuli, which can be related to Attack as that relies on physical movement and you'll need your body to be responsive in order for it to perform the attack correctly.
Iron: This is just for pun sake. As Vader_the_White said, Steel-types are considered THE most defensive typing so what Vitamin can be used to represent that? Iron, because we do have a bit of iron in our body.
Calcium: While Calcium is used to make bones and teeth stronger (since they're made of the stuff), it also serves the function of activating exocytosis which controls the cells use of energy. This process allows things such as neurotransmitters to release (aka let's you think), muscles to contract (aka let's you move), and is part of the heart's electrical conduction system that allows it to beat (aka let's you live). Calcium seems to have a lot to do with energy and the way it used, and what is Special Attack but a Pokemon directing a certain kind of energy?
Zinc: For Zinc it might be better to describe what happens if your body is lacking it: A lack of Zinc has been connected to many diseases, retardation, delayed sexual maturation, infection susceptibility, and diarrhea which all lead to eventual death. Zinc seems to have to do with activating the bodies various health maintenance function (and it's also the second most common metal in organisms, Iron is the first), which I would say fit with it being for Special Defense.
Carbos: Carbos is short for "Carbohydrate", carbohydrate is the body's essential source of energy. Without carbohydrates you're not going anywhere, which I think is appropriate for Speed.

BTW, I'm VERY generalizing what each of these chemicals do, they each do a ton of other stuff in the body which pretty much all translate to "you need it to live". I'm just picking out the functions they do that could be stretched to relate to the stats they're associated with.

I'll also go with a cop out answer of pointing out that a Pokemon's body is different from a human's body, so Pokemon can have these vitamins do whatever they want.
Good explanations, but you forgot HP Up.

Here is my theory: "HP" refers to the stat HP. And "Up" does not mean it goes to a higher place but that it gets a higher number. So the number goes UP.. So basically, "HP Up" refers to it making the HP stat go up in a figurative way.

Admittedly, this is just a theory of mine. It may be wrong, but I think that it at least makes a little sense.
 
Good explanations, but you forgot HP Up.

Here is my theory: "HP" refers to the stat HP. And "Up" does not mean it goes to a higher place but that it gets a higher number. So the number goes UP.. So basically, "HP Up" refers to it making the HP stat go up in a figurative way.

Admittedly, this is just a theory of mine. It may be wrong, but I think that it at least makes a little sense.

Oh wow, I made this post all the way back in 2014; 10 years ago. :psynervous:

Anyway, the point of that part of the post was connecting the nutrients and minerals used for the English names to how they correspond with the stat they rose. HP Up, PP Up, and PP Max in both English and Japanese are not named after a nutrient or mineral, they're oddly straight forward saying what they do.
 
The stat-boosting berries have some very odd flavor text that makes them out to be way more dramatic than they would end up becoming, but the special berries, especially the special defense berry, are particularly odd.

:liechi-berry:
Gen 3: "A mysterious Berry. It is rumored to contain the power of the sea."
Gen 4: "This Berry is surrounded by mystery. It is rumored to be imbued with the power of the sea."

:ganlon-berry:
Gen 3: "A mysterious Berry. It is rumored to contain the power of the land."
Gen 4: "This Berry is surrounded by mystery. It is rumored to be imbued with the power of the land."

:salac-berry:
Gen 3: "A mysterious Berry. It is rumored to contain the power of the sky."
Gen 4: "This Berry is surrounded by mystery. It is rumored to be imbued with the power of the sky."

:petaya-berry:
Gen 3: "A mysterious Berry. It is rumored to contain the power of all living things."
Gen 4: "This Berry is surrounded by mystery. It is rumored to be imbued with the power of all living things."

:apicot-berry:
Gen 3: "A very mystifying Berry. No telling what may happen or how it can be used."
Gen 4: "This is a very, very mystifying Berry. There is no telling how it can be used, or what may happen if it is used."

Liechi, Ganlon, and Salac parallel Groudon, Kyogre, and Rayquaza, with the red and blue swapped as Groudon and Kyogre often do. Petaya represents life, which seems unrelated to the weather trio. And then Apicot is just ???????????????? for some reason.
 
The stat-boosting berries have some very odd flavor text that makes them out to be way more dramatic than they would end up becoming, but the special berries, especially the special defense berry, are particularly odd.

:liechi-berry:
Gen 3: "A mysterious Berry. It is rumored to contain the power of the sea."
Gen 4: "This Berry is surrounded by mystery. It is rumored to be imbued with the power of the sea."

:ganlon-berry:
Gen 3: "A mysterious Berry. It is rumored to contain the power of the land."
Gen 4: "This Berry is surrounded by mystery. It is rumored to be imbued with the power of the land."

:salac-berry:
Gen 3: "A mysterious Berry. It is rumored to contain the power of the sky."
Gen 4: "This Berry is surrounded by mystery. It is rumored to be imbued with the power of the sky."

:petaya-berry:
Gen 3: "A mysterious Berry. It is rumored to contain the power of all living things."
Gen 4: "This Berry is surrounded by mystery. It is rumored to be imbued with the power of all living things."

:apicot-berry:
Gen 3: "A very mystifying Berry. No telling what may happen or how it can be used."
Gen 4: "This is a very, very mystifying Berry. There is no telling how it can be used, or what may happen if it is used."

Liechi, Ganlon, and Salac parallel Groudon, Kyogre, and Rayquaza, with the red and blue swapped as Groudon and Kyogre often do. Petaya represents life, which seems unrelated to the weather trio. And then Apicot is just ???????????????? for some reason.

I mean presumably the obvious counterpart to Petaya's life power is... death, which I imagine they didn't want to label Apicot as. But yeah this does make the Apicot berry sound vastly stronger and more mysterious than the others when it really isn't
 
The stat-boosting berries have some very odd flavor text that makes them out to be way more dramatic than they would end up becoming, but the special berries, especially the special defense berry, are particularly odd.

:liechi-berry:
Gen 3: "A mysterious Berry. It is rumored to contain the power of the sea."
Gen 4: "This Berry is surrounded by mystery. It is rumored to be imbued with the power of the sea."

:ganlon-berry:
Gen 3: "A mysterious Berry. It is rumored to contain the power of the land."
Gen 4: "This Berry is surrounded by mystery. It is rumored to be imbued with the power of the land."

:salac-berry:
Gen 3: "A mysterious Berry. It is rumored to contain the power of the sky."
Gen 4: "This Berry is surrounded by mystery. It is rumored to be imbued with the power of the sky."

:petaya-berry:
Gen 3: "A mysterious Berry. It is rumored to contain the power of all living things."
Gen 4: "This Berry is surrounded by mystery. It is rumored to be imbued with the power of all living things."

:apicot-berry:
Gen 3: "A very mystifying Berry. No telling what may happen or how it can be used."
Gen 4: "This is a very, very mystifying Berry. There is no telling how it can be used, or what may happen if it is used."

Liechi, Ganlon, and Salac parallel Groudon, Kyogre, and Rayquaza, with the red and blue swapped as Groudon and Kyogre often do. Petaya represents life, which seems unrelated to the weather trio. And then Apicot is just ???????????????? for some reason.
1721486629302.png
 
Shuckle in Gen 2 could do this
At the end of each Pokémon battle after the player has reached Goldenrod City, there is a 1/16 chance that the first Shuckle holding the Berry item in the party will have this item converted into a Berry Juice
It's a pretty distinct bit of functionality, especially for gen 2, and honestly for years I just assumed this was something it could just do moving forward.

But it doesn't. I guess the obvious reason why would be they'd want to tie it to an ability so my question is....why not make it an ability? call it "Ferment" or something; or maybe tweak how it works in general (did anyone else remember the rumor that it could eventually turn berry juice into rare candies? ah, good times...). Not like they're strangers to weird, kind of useless, gimmicky abilities, much less on a weird already gimmicky Pokemon.
They still allude to this bit of lore by (usually) having it be a 100% held item when Shuckle's in the wild but I dunno, would it really be out of place as one of its 3 abilities over Sturdy, Gluttony (Gen 4 addition) or Contrary (hidden, gen 5)?
 
I still have a theory that true Alola sequels in the same vein as B2W2 was in the realm of possibility, (...). My point is, I feel like some of the unexplained plot points with Necrozma and its fusions might have gotten lost in transition from “true sequels” to “split third versions”. Of particular interest to me is the idea that, in theory, Necrozma’s Prism Armor could still be attached to other Pokémon not named Solgaleo and Lunala. Including- wait for it- Arceus. Think about this for a second- Multitype can be activated by Z-Crystals too, and Arceus in-universe can be seen as a bringer of light. I feel like there’s some untapped connections here. Maybe in the scrapped sequels, instead of Ultra Necrozma we would have gotten an Arceus/Necrozma fusion or something.

While sadly we'll probably never know, USUM originally planned to not be "enhanced remakes" would explain much more than just the sudden shift the story takes from SM's original to now being about Necrozma. The forced way the Ultra Recon Squad was added to the story. Plot points built up in the original SM, which were paid off there, just abruptly ending with lackluster conclusions cause new story elements are taking their place. Newly added locations not getting fleshed out, most notably Ultra Megalopolis.

Reminds me of the time I shared my thoughts that they should have made USUM a parallel dimension story (since Gen VII was themed around dimensions) and how that would have changed around the major characters thus also give them plenty room to change the story and actually implement the Ultra Recon Squad and Necrozma and everything else more naturally.

Anyway, not sure what you're getting at about Prism Armor being given to Pokemon not connected to Necrozma, especially Arceus. Yes, they gave Arceus (or rather Multitype) the strange additional effect of changing Type with the elemental Z-Crystal its given, but I feel that has more to do with practicality than lore (quite simply they wanted Arceus, a Pokemon who's gimmick is able to be any Type, to also be able to use Z-Crystals, but doing so mean it couldn't use its gimmick. Thus they decided to let Z-Crystals also work with Multitype. Probably seen as a fair trade off as it doesn't gain the 20% STAB boost from the Plates. If there was any lore I would say it's more to show how inferior Silvally's RKS System is to Multitype; in addition to only working with the Memories thus no STAB boost Z-Move, the Memories don't even offer a small STAB boost like Plates do). I'll agree Prism Armor feels like a bit of afterthought with its effect, but flavorwise (as in its name) its meant to be connected to Necrozma as just a part of its biology (thus why Solagaleo and Lunala get it when it attached itself to them). Though Neuroforce is another story.

I am certain that Silvally has more importance than it seems.

Maybe for the characters. Like we never learn what happened with the third Type: Null they made. We're told 3 Type: Nulls were made before the project was considered a failure and scrapped (the Type: Nulls put into cryo-sleep), Gladion rescues one which becomes his ace especially after "evolving" it to Silvally (which he named), Gladion gives the player one of them, and then the third remains in limbo. Worse, in Sword & Shield we learn that the blueprints for Type: Nulls were stolen and news ones were being made by major corporations like Macro Cosmos (they could have instead said the third Type: Null was taken and, while research was done to figure out how to make more (thus explaining any which appear in future games), the Type: Null we get in SwSh would have been the third).

But for the lore overall? Silvally is just a pale imitation of Arceus meant to fight against Ultra Beasts. That's all. It has important to Gladion and his family (and the Aether Foundation), but it's not like its a forgotten child/replacer of Arceus.

So an interesting thing to talk about with Pokémon designs. Namely, how designs and what goes into them has changed over the generations as the technology behind each generation's games has advanced and the fidelity has changed. At the basic level, 2D sprites vs 3D models is one thing, but 2D sprites are designed to look best in a static pose as you show expression in a drawn pose, and a sprite can be drawn in a variety of ways. The Pokemon from the older generations are designed with this strength in mind. Meanwhile 3D models shine best in animation, as you have a model that's designed to move around, such as when attacking or when moving around, same with facial expressions. And thus, many of the newer generation Pokemon look best in a 3D model and have design aspects that truly shine when the Pokemon is properly in action or moving around.

(...)

Now the interesting "mystery and conspiracy" of all this is...what's next?

I feel we're now at a point where Pokemon is reaching the wall between being able to go further with its graphics... BUT not wanting to lose the "style" which is identified as being Pokemon. I'm sure they could make the Pokemon look more and more real to possibly match the aesthetics of the Detective Pikachu movie, but I don't feel they want that for the games (or franchise as a whole) which are meant to have a more approachable cartoony/anime feel. The Detective Pikachu movie is a special case, maybe just to answer the question "what would Pokemon look in real life" which was a huge part of that movie's marketing.

I feel the next design innovation isn't going to be exactly an improvement in graphics but rather an improvement in performance & capability.

I don't think I need to explain what I mean by "performance". We've all commented on the graphical issues of Gen 8, Legends Arceus, and Gen 9. Framerate issues, slowdown/lag (if not outright crashes), draw distance problems, etc..

As for "capability", one aspect to think on is customization. In other Pokemon media we see Pokemon which may have unique design traits (notable fur/hair difference, scars and blemishes, different coloring but aren't Shiny Pokemon); what if you can have in-game Pokemon have those traits instead of all looking the same except maybe in height (heck, weight would also be a visual difference if a Pokemon was thinner or bulkier)? And of course comes a big one: clothing. What if they can make a dynamic clothing system where you can dress up your Pokemon. THEORY: Maybe this is why Black & White remakes were skipped for now. While they were a side activity, Pokemon Musicals were pretty notable in letting you dress up your Pokemon. Now it was simple back when it was sprites, but now things are in 3D and now not so simple. But if they're gong to go through all the trouble of making a dynamic 3D clothing system for Musicals, they may as well have it be accessible for the entire game. But that's easier said then done, and at the moment (if they're even working on it) they're probably no where near close, thus until they can make it they skipped Gen V remakes as they would be (or at least the generation they would be in) the time to have such a major graphical jump.

Sometimes I wonder if the idea of a Pokespe anime adaptation has ever been floated around at TPC in any remotely serious capacity.
You can have little webisodes but those are smaller things that happen on the side (& also I believe have that direct line)

Yeah, at this point I think a "Pokemon Generations" type thing would be the best the Pokemon Special/Adventure Manga could hope for in an adaptation. Because the the big differences between the games and manga are notable moments where the manga took a big twist with their story. It would be pure fanservice as it would have to be explained that these are major moments from the manga thus why it can be a huge departure from the game and most people aren't going to be familiar with what happens. But that could also be to that series benefit, showing people something "new", another view of the Pokemon World and stories that take place in it (in some ways are more mature). If planned out right can be a win-win, Pokemon Company gets to make a new short anime series which intrigues people and gets all the views and attention, and the Pokemon Special/Adventure manga gets more exposure.

Another potential idea is turning older Pokemon Special/Adventure manga and making them into motion comics, colored and voiced. Give them new life using technology that didn't exist back when they were made.

Liechi, Ganlon, and Salac parallel Groudon, Kyogre, and Rayquaza, with the red and blue swapped as Groudon and Kyogre often do. Petaya represents life, which seems unrelated to the weather trio. And then Apicot is just ???????????????? for some reason.

While most certainly Liechi, Ganlon, and Salac reference the Super Ancient Trio, I think that's all it is, a reference. Otherwise the Berries have no connection to them. So in that regard, I think Petaya being a Berry containing the power of all living things and Apicot being a complete mystery makes more sense as just part of the ascending "power" scale these Berries are making. It starts where "everything" began on Earth (and Earth-like planets like the Pokemon World) with the ocean, then land forms providing a new environment for things to develop, this causes changes in the sky & weather, from all of this life can flourish, and with life comes greater mysteries.

You can argue things continue further with the last three Berries after them introduced in Gen III:

:lansat_berry: Lansat is a Legendary Berry that brings great joy. For their to be "joy" life needs to develop emotions (to have them) and intelligence (to understand them).

:starf_berry: Starf is a Berry thought to be a mirage, so strong it was abandoned at the edge of the world. Intrigue & denial, awe & fear, reverence & rejection; it's the emergence of belief, belief of a greater power that no mere mortal can control.

:enigma_berry: Enigma is completely unknown and has the power of the stars. Space, the final frontier, the greatest unknown; intelligent life has long looked up to the stars and wondered what was "up" there, wanting to "go" there, leave the familiar for something seen as greater.

Shuckle in Gen 2 could do this

At the end of each Pokémon battle after the player has reached Goldenrod City, there is a 1/16 chance that the first Shuckle holding the Berry item in the party will have this item converted into a Berry Juice

It's a pretty distinct bit of functionality, especially for gen 2, and honestly for years I just assumed this was something it could just do moving forward.

But it doesn't. I guess the obvious reason why would be they'd want to tie it to an ability so my question is....why not make it an ability? call it "Ferment" or something; or maybe tweak how it works in general (did anyone else remember the rumor that it could eventually turn berry juice into rare candies? ah, good times...). Not like they're strangers to weird, kind of useless, gimmicky abilities, much less on a weird already gimmicky Pokemon.
They still allude to this bit of lore by (usually) having it be a 100% held item when Shuckle's in the wild but I dunno, would it really be out of place as one of its 3 abilities over Sturdy, Gluttony (Gen 4 addition) or Contrary (hidden, gen 5)?

Or, better yet, have it just be an effect connected to the Oran Berry. No need to change anything about Shuckle itself, its just something special the Oran Berry can do if a Shuckle is holding onto it. As a bonus, maybe also give a little special effect to Berry Juice if its held by Shuckle (if Shuckle's HP goes below a 1/3rd of its HP, it'll be healed to full and cured of any status ailment).
 
Before I begin, a brief shoutout to Pikachu315111 for posting something here, thus reminding me that this thread exists and that I posted here before via means of the notification system. Now, onto the actual post. I've been looking into these 3DS Pokémon games extensively since my last post here, and while I definitely think there were some significant changes made to the core series lineup here, I also have reason to believe there was some scrapped content, too- some of which, dare I say it, we might actually see in Pokémon Legends: Z-A. I'm going to keep the theorycrafting and whatnot to a minimum here- that is to say, there won't be any- but I would like to bring some attention to the Hoenn remakes to try and tie up some of Kalos's own loose ends.

Something that's always fascinated me is how "remake generations", a term I use to categorize generations that, well, have games that are remakes, tend to share a ton of similarities with the generation that is being remade. Sure enough, Gen 3 (Hoenn) and Gen 6 (Kalos) seem to have a lot of smaller details in common. Among these, the mascot Legendaries stand out, not just because we know X & Y's story was originally going to be followed up on, but also in the sense that the ORAS iteration of Hoenn treats Pokémon Emerald differently than the RS version. I don't think the Battle Frontier's exclusion was meant to be a deliberate troll at all. If anything, this and the scene where Steven tells Wallace he wants to travel in the postgame after the Delta Episode seems to indicate that, at least in Gen 6, "Pokémon Delta Emerald" could have actually been a true ORAS sequel instead of "just an Emerald remake". The only difference would have been it would only be one version unlike how Black 2 & White 2 (and possibly USUM) handled things. The question remains, though- what does Kalos have to do with any of what I just said, especially when, unlike a Kalos follow-up, Delta Emerald was seemingly never in consideration from the start?

Remember Xerneas and Yveltal? More specifically, their Abilities? Unlike the mascot legendary pairs from Gens 2, 4, and 5 (as well as 7, 8's Crowned Formes, and 9), the Gen 3 and Gen 6 pairs not only have different typings, but also contrasting ideas on the same Type of Ability. Notice how Fairy Aura and Dark Aura can be seen as a parallel to Drizzle/Primordial Sea and Drought/Desolate Land, as well as how Aura Break and Air Lock/Delta Stream both serve as "counters" to each of their first two. That's great and all, but now shift your focus to Rayquaza's appearances across Gen 3, and again in the Delta Episode in Gen 6. Any Gen 3 fan worth their salt can tell you about the iconic rivalry between Rayquaza and Deoxys that's been a staple for both of those Pokémon's lores since 2004.

You can probably see where this is going: if the Kalos and Hoenn mascot Legendaries have all these similarities... where is Zygarde's own Deoxys equivalent? As it turns out, we may have already had our answer, long before Pokémon Legends: Arceus, let alone Z-A, was even conceptualized. On the website The Cutting Room Floor, users of that site have documented a strange gap in the National PokéDex numbers for different Kalos Pokémon. Pokémon have their PokéDex numbers changed during development all the time, but this particular gap feels almost deliberate. During development, internal index numbers are used to sort Pokémon before their PokéDex numbers are chosen. Index numbers 768, 769, and 770 include information for Xerneas, Yveltal, and Zygarde, while index numbers 772, 773, and 774 contain information for Diancie, Hoopa and Volcanion. So tell me, why does index number 771 contain removed information placed right in that exact spot? When you consider that the 3DS datamine leak contains two spots for Kalos follow-up games, it feels easy enough to think there could have been an X2 and a Y2 or whatever they wanted to call it. They clearly didn't go that route with Zygarde itself, though, certainly not with fusion forms with Xerneas and Yveltal. Z and A. Two versions, possibly sequels but possibly their own thing. A supposedly scrapped Legendary or Mythical Pokémon. I just feel like it all makes so much sense.
 
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