np: SV OU Suspect Process, Round 14 - Hazy Shade of Winter

[CTC]

Yeah, there are still mons that are great into Zapkinglu like Gliscor, Ogerpon-Wellspring and Darkrai. I don't believe a Kyurem ban will devolve the meta into fat Boots shit. I'm less convinced Kyurem is broken than before, but there are still some pretty notable mons that dunk on fat shit even in Kyurem's absence.

You are slowly figuring it out. Because of more shit getting banned, more usage will be funneled into the remaining mons good vs a dominant archetype, which is how we get centralization. Then, centralization begins to make these mons look dominant, leading to more suspects. For example, volc ban funneled fire usage to gouging and took away usage from dirge which soft checked both gouging and volc, so then gouging became over centralizing, leading to its ban. Gouging deterred sd scor, its ban lead to scor being a premier breaker and now gliscor appears to be much stronger than it was during gouging era. Similar logic applies to every ban that isn’t outright obvious like ursaluna or magearna. If kyurem gets banned, the gap leftover from gouging and its departure will be filled by mons such as the ones u mentioned, making them over spammed, eventually leading to their suspects. This is how metagame diversity gets reduced and you get a stale metagame!
A lot of people are arguing my argument but not realizing it, and it’s ok to ask questions. I’m here to help everyone understand. Welcome to the conversation

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

so then gouging became over centralizing, leading to its ban.

gouging wasn't banned for being overcentralizing, at least not as i see it. it wasn't disproportionately warping the sets people were using, it wasn't a mon people needed to run, most people weren't bringing otherwise unviable things specifically to beat gouging. the problem people had with it is that it had way too many sets and they all had very different counterplay, very little of which fit well together. (also, if you're claiming gouging was overcentralizing and that centralization is bad, does that mean you consider the gouging ban a good decision?)

This is how metagame diversity gets reduced and you get a stale metagame!

i still don't understand how metagame diversity is being reduced at all. the vr has been expanding as more things have been banned, and the variety of teamstyles and sets has trended up, not down, for most of this whole dlc (with the exception of archskewda meta, where variety drastic went down). what does "metagame diversity" mean here?

 

[flyingtaco]

To me, Kyurem feels like less of a threat in-game than on paper. I've seen a lot of good arguments about how the set diversity of Kyurem makes it broken, or at least uncompetitive. However, I didn't struggle with Kyurem much going through my suspect reqs and playing on 1800-1900s ladder. I've been trying to reconcile how such a huge threat on paper could manifest as a reasonable wallbreaker and sometimes cleaner in battle ever since the suspect started, and I've finally collected my thoughts. SupaGMoney's post in this thread put into words a lot of what I think about Kyurem, and he's a lot more eloquent than me as well, so make sure to check out his post. I'm going to counter some common arguments the pro-ban side uses below, focusing more on the in-battle side than the builder side.

Kyurem roulette

The best ban arguments I've seen are those that say Kyurem is uncompetitive because you have to guess the set right or else you lose. The first step to beating Kyurem is recognizing that no mon except super niche stuff like bronzong, or post tera stuff like tera-steel Latios, can beat every Kyurem set. However, just because a pokemon has no counters, does not mean it's banworthy, especially in a tera meta like gen 9. Every Kyurem set individually has a wide list of splashable checks and counters, so your first step to beating Kyurem is to figure out it's set.

Kyurem has 5 main sets, being boots, specs, sub-protect, dd pure physical attacker (possibly with tera blast), and 4 attacks (typically scale shot, icicle spear, freeze dry, earth power). Kyurem ban advocates will tell you that whenever you see a Kyurem in team preview, you're playing roulette on the Kyurem set. This is simply untrue. Here's my experience with Kyurem counterplay.

1. Narrow down the range of likely sets.
Kyurem's set can be partially revealed from team-preview. If you see an HO or very offensive tea, the Kyurem is probably dd or 4 attacks. If you see a team with no hazard control, the Kyurem is probably boots. If you see a bulky offense with cinderace + corv and/or glowking, it's probably specs or sub-tect or 4a. The pace of the team you're facing can also reveal information about the Kyurem set. Fast paced teams are more likely going to be DD or 4a, while slower paced teams are more likely to be specs, boots, or sub-tect. Next, the item that Kyurem runs entirely gives away the set, so for example if you see lefties, you know its sub protect, or at least its like sub dd icicle spear tera blast or something wack like that. So instead of 5ish sets to guess from, you really only need to guess between 1-2 sets usually. Of course people can surprise you with specs on HO or sub-dd-tera blast on balance, but that goes for every mon with multiple sets, so it's really not an argument for banning Kyurem specifically. I would argue that determing the Kyurem set adds skill and rewards metagame knowledge, which are good qualities to have in a metagame.

2. Go into the appropriate response.
Now that you have an idea of what the Kyurem set is, we need to break down it's counterplay. Let's say that you made a mistake or your opponent positioned correctly and Kyurem is on the field facing a mon that it beats. What should you do? Like I mentioned in the previous section, you should first try to get an idea for what the Kyurem set is. Kyurem sets can be roughly categorized into 2 categories, fast and slow. Fast sets have a lot of immediate power, like specs or 4a, whereas slow sets like sub-protect try to win in the long term. If the Kyurem set is a "fast" set, go into your counter, like slowking-g or iron crown to scout the move, then react accordingly. If its a slow set, you can safely go into a phaser, like roar moltres or zamazenta (who won't take too much damage from a weak freeze dry or icicle spear) to force it out.

3. Now that Kyurem has attacked, use the damage calculator to figure out it's set
By looking at how much damage Kyurem has taken or dealt, you can much more precisely figure out its set and determine how to react the next time it gets to switch in, if it gets to at all.

I hope this helps anyone who thinks they're playing Kyurem roulette.

Too good at wallbreaking

Another common argument that pro-ban voters will use is that Kyurem is too good at wallbreaking. In a vacuum, Kyurem is an extremely effective wallbreaker and it's definitely in the top echelons of wallbreakers in the tier. However, the main reason why I think Kyurem is not broken is because it needs more support than the average wallbreaker to achieve it's stupendous wallbreaking feats.

Wallbreakers in SV come in many shapes and sizes, all requiring different levels of team support. On one end, you have super splashable wallbreakers like Ogerpon-wellspring and NP Darkrai, which require minimal team support. On the other end, you have stuff like choice specs modest walking wake in sun, which is 100x the wallbreaker that Kyurem will ever be, but obviously requires a lot more team support. Kyurem lies somewhere in the middle. As a wallbreaker, Kyurem really appreciates good hazard control, usually paring with a corv or a cinderace, if not both. It also really appreciates gking for the pivoting. Kyurem's slight lack of splashability and strict requirement of good hazard control for every set except boots, which kinda sucks imo, means that you must pay a price in teambuilding to utilize Kyurem's strengths. One must look at the trade-offs between power and team support to fully evaluate how strong a wall breaker is, and Kyurem requires enough building resources to check its wallbreaking power.

2 Kills per game

Another (bad) argument for Kyurem being broken is people arguing that since Kyurem averages 2 kills (I made that number up) against balance per game, it must be broken right! No, that's a surface level analysis and doesn't capture the whole picture. Any good wallbreaker will average 2 kills per game vs balance, whether it's ogerpon-wellspring, darkrai, or walking wake in sun. That's what a wallbreaker is

Weaknesses

Kyurem has many weaknesses that hold it back from dominating games the way it did in gen 8.

Longevity: Back when it had roost in gen 8, Kyurem could throw ice beams at you all game long since it had roost. Now without roost, it only has a few switch ins per game usually, and it takes really good play to get more than a few switch ins.

Weakness to knock off: you might argue that every mon is weak to knock off. However, Kyurem is especially weak to knock off since many sets rely greatly on the item, such as lefties on sub-protect or loaded dice on dd and 4 attacks sets. A more subtle way Kyurem is weak to knock off is that knocking off the item (or tricking) directly tells you the Kyurem set, reducing the threat level of Kyurem greatly. Thus, Kyurem has even fewer safe switch-in opportunities than you might expect. For example, Kyurem doesn't want to switch into Gliscor directly since if it gets knocked or toxic'ed, its really bad for Kyurem.

Bad defensive typing: Kyurem has a pretty poor defensive typing, with 5 common weaknesses to fighting, fairy, dragon, steel, and rock. It also only has 3 resistances, water and grass, which are not super common attacking types this gen. And of course it's electric resistance, which would help, except that the only OU electric type can drop a draco on Kyurem's fat ass. Its switch ins are therefore limited without pivot moves, which are more telegraphed if an opponent has Kyurem. This also makes Kyurem relatively weaker to defensive tera compared to other wallbreakers, since it's more likely that the teraing mon has a way to hit Kyurem for super effective damage. I'm not saying forcing defensive tera is acceptable, just that Kyurem is weak to defensive tera.

Lack of initial power aka Darkrai syndrome: Now I'm not saying this about specs, that has plenty of initial power, but most people don't find that set broken. Often times, when Kyurem tries to do something cute and quirky like set up subs and protect and stuff, just hit it hard neutrally and you can out damage it.

The real Kyurem roulette

Freeze. It's the ugly side of Kyurem, and it's probably the part of Kyurem I find the most uncompetitive. Is it too much? No, otherwise we would have booted darkrai for having basically the same phenomenon as well. Kyurem is limited in it's opportunities to freeze since it can really only switch in a few times per battle. There is also freeze counterplay as well. Garganacl (especially tera fairy) and tera gliscor are common balance staples that are completely immune to freeze that also beat Kyurem. AV mola also works here too.

Also an aspect of freeze that causes people to overestimate it is the thaw chance. When you see someone talk about an X% chance that Kyurem gets a freeze in N turns, you should really take that X and multiply it by 0.8, since there's a 20% chance of a turn 1 thaw. 10% chance might be bad, but 8% is a little less bad.

Also also, if you think freeze is uncompetitive, please ban zapdos from the tier. Yellow magic has caused far more hax than Kyurem ever could.

I hope that I've been able to highlight why Kyurem is less banworthy in practice than it seems like on paper. DNB on kyurem.

 

[UltraSword]

You know I got to say this is the most invested I have been in a suspect in all of Gen 9. This is the climax of Gen 9 OU and this result will change this tier forever. Whatever you vote just know that (in my opinion) this will be the most important suspect this entire Gen. If we ban kyurem many could go next and if we don't there may be none. Whichever you all choose we better hope the tier has a positive change from it. This will (hopefully) be my last post about the kyurem suspect so it has been fun.

Edit: ok Finch is right about the tera suspect being most important. This is the second most important xD

 

[Finchinator]

Whatever you vote just know that (in my opinion) this will be the most important suspect this entire Gen.

This was the biggest suspect in Smogon history arguably and certainly the most important during generation nine.

Let’s carry on discussing Kyurem rather than lore anyway.

 

[blunder]

I implore more members than finch and ausma to make a post in this thread with their opinions about kyurem and the gen9 metagame. This council has 8 people (and used to have 10 which is way more than needed, ou councils used to have 5-7 max but i digress) so this is a bare minimum to request and would help many people reading this thread by being able to see what the literal players in charge of tiering think about it. I don’t find it fair to see Ctc 1v10 ignorant players and then the only post that comes from OU council is “WOAH WOAH WOAH LETS RESPECT BOTH SIDES!!!” ok so can yall who are supposed to be the best minds of the generation make some posts? If not, then why are most of you even on council? And if it is so hard as a council member to make a post explaining your thoughts on the metagame, then please make decisions as a massive 8 man council for the progression of the gen9ou tier and keep it pushing rather than continuing to draw out suspect tests like this. I was on OU council in gen6/7, it was literally mandated at one point that we as council members had to make posts explaining our thoughts and all around contributing to the competitive community. it does not matter if you guys tell me you discuss issues of the metagame in your council discord, we need to see real posts here in this thread.

In this thread, only finch and ausma have posted any time of "argument" around kyurem.
In the gouging suspect test thread only finch, ausma, and xavgb posted any "argument" around gouging fire
in the volcarona suspect test thread only finch and ausma have posted any "argument" about volcarona

I can keep going back but im not gonna waste my time, the volc suspect test was in april and as u can see the only people who are making posts about the ou metagame on forums from the ou council are the two who are most active and seem to be the face of the council. im sure maybe i will be responded to with "you have no idea what we discuss in our council discord and what goes into tiering" youre right, but also i was a council member before so i know you can sit there and do nothing if you want and stay on the council. posts from every council member are need going forward or we need some replacements.

as for kyurem itself, im vehemently anti-ban. its obvious atp what each set is, if u see a cinderace with blaze + hazard removal its specs, if u dont see removal and ur opponent is using spikes its probably boots, and if ur facing HO with samurott lead, its 70% of the time mix icicle spear. as for people crying about sub protect, i implore you to go to ting-lu, take 26% net from freeze dry after lefties and click whirlwind. I posted a 90 minute video with 3d and lax going over our thoughts and realizations about kyurem that you can watch I think it is pretty all encompassing of what kyurem is capable of, as well as the current state of the gen 9 ou metagame. However, with each passing day, I honestly become more anti-ban. I just don't think it's broken at all based on what i've seen in tournaments the past few weeks. i will admit that kyurem did seem more overwhelming about a month ago when subprot just dropped, but now seeing the main set be mixed and how easy it is to take advantage of (is literally hazard weak bruh), i cannot in good faith ban this pokemon when shit like kingambit runs around.

i also wanna say i truly respect tournament players not on council that post a lot, i cant remember everyone rn but shoutout akalli/wof/ziozio/storm/pais etc there are a lot of others but this just who i rmbr seeing post often. it is very necessary and appreciated when tournament players who are actually in the field give their opnions, even if its just bullet points or random thoughts/ideas. I dont even agree with like 70% of what wof says but he is one of my favorite posters to read.

 

[lax]

Hey guys it’s me the OLT champion and best SV OU player on the website. In a serious vein, despite not wanting to play in major tours recently (SCL OLT), I’ve been keeping up with the meta as a manager of the Shoguns and love to load up games at the top of the ladder if I have some free time. Think I’m top 3 or 5 rn. Here are my thoughts re: Kyurem

Dice/DD are probably the most efficient sets. Dice is my personal favorite bc it has hardly any switch ins smoking counters to special Kyu like Spdef Molt/GloK. If any set were to be broken, it’d probably be this set. It does require some semblance of predicting and is hampered by hazards, so it’s not like you can just load it up and guarantee it will win you on the spot. It’ll create openings and break your opp’s teams down if you let it

However, I think the BIGgest thing holding Kyu down is how the meta has shifted accordingly. Personally, I find the Hazard game to be the most important aspect of SV OU rn. It’s why people spam Ting and Ghold/Pech more than ever rn. Keeping your ups and pressuring your opps is the best way to win games rn.

Kyu needs an item to be relevant, period. Boots is way too weak and Dice gives that extra boost from low bp to guaranteed 100 power minimum while also letting Kyu hit powerful on the special side. NMI boosts its special capabilities by a lot while also helping Spear hit strong and negating part of the RNG from using a multi hit move. Specs is specs, lol, and if you don’t use a boosting item, lefties + tect is needed in order to actually guarantee Kyu can spam a ton of hits in safely and fish for my freezes + PP stall. Bottom line is Kyurem NEEDS an item

I think the meta has actually adjusted ok since the Goug ban (except for Gliscor) in response to Kyu specifically. I never see games where it just takes over and dominates. Looking at SCL, its most notable win was turning Ghost vs Normal Dnite and getting a free set up while being unrevengable by Dnite. This was a cool tech and not even on Smogdex aka required a niche set to put in major work. (Didn’t even fact check that’s how confident I am) Kyu hasn’t really had any other relevant games of plowing over stuff.

I think Kyu keeps a lot of stuff in check and actually involves a solid amount of skill. Sure, getting frozen fkin sux, but it won’t happen that often and cannot be worse than a Darkrai clicking pulse and flinching you instantly. People say not to try and predict what the meta will become, but I think it’s important to evaluate the impact a mon leaving will have on the tier and that rn, Kyu isn’t even the worst thing in the tier. It’s very obviously Gliscor and the ever-looming Kingambit

TL;DR: if you’re struggling into Kyurem, look into your hazard game. It is the most important aspect of SV OU rn and completely stops Kyurem as it NEEDS an item to succeed

 

[BolTingBlazie]

Finchinator will be dropping his pro ban (most likely) post later, looking forward to seeing his argument.


Also counterpoint, almost every knock of user wants nothing to do with kyurem as a lot of them just die even if they manage to knock the item off, and the point about hazards? Boots kyurem is very common so that isn't consistent either to get your hazards up because if you send something in to knock off it will probably die. That is not healthy to have to sack a knock user to it every game to beat it.

I was running scale shot dd loaded dice kyurem with tera blast electric and that was going stupid even when rocks went up because nothing could ever come in safely and even those who tried to come in and knock just died regardless of whether they could knock or not.

Sure kyurem rewards good play, but it is too matchup fishy and frankly not healthy dynamic wise for the tier. Neither is gambit or gliscor but those have sufficient counterplay even if they can be dumb, Kyurem is a prediction game that even if you predict right you can still lose if you have nothing that comes in safely. It is kind of like volcarona and ursaluna blood moon in that regard because nothing ever switches in safely at all. I miss when we had reactive dynamics and I absolutely do not like these feast or famine matchup fishing dynamics that kyurem provides, I think not banning it is a mistake as I see it as something very likely to be a problem months from now, because quite simply nothing ever switches in and out offensing it is not an option most times because kyurem actually has good enough bulk to live hits unlike something like Darkrai who can get 2hko'd or okho'd by most offense and is far frailer.


If I had the time to get reqs I would have voted ban, I actually started going for reqs yesterday (Loaded dice kyurem is shockingly kinda nuts and feels like bax did in some ways) but realized I was short on time and I am busy over the next few days so that won't happen unfortunately.

 

[ShizuOsaka]

To me, Kyurem feels like less of a threat in-game than on paper. I've seen a lot of good arguments about how the set diversity of Kyurem makes it broken, or at least uncompetitive. However, I didn't struggle with Kyurem much going through my suspect reqs and playing on 1800-1900s ladder. I've been trying to reconcile how such a huge threat on paper could manifest as a reasonable wallbreaker and sometimes cleaner in battle ever since the suspect started, and I've finally collected my thoughts. SupaGMoney's post in this thread put into words a lot of what I think about Kyurem, and he's a lot more eloquent than me as well, so make sure to check out his post. I'm going to counter some common arguments the pro-ban side uses below, focusing more on the in-battle side than the builder side.

Kyurem roulette

The best ban arguments I've seen are those that say Kyurem is uncompetitive because you have to guess the set right or else you lose. The first step to beating Kyurem is recognizing that no mon except super niche stuff like bronzong, or post tera stuff like tera-steel Latios, can beat every Kyurem set. However, just because a pokemon has no counters, does not mean it's banworthy, especially in a tera meta like gen 9. Every Kyurem set individually has a wide list of splashable checks and counters, so your first step to beating Kyurem is to figure out it's set.

Kyurem has 5 main sets, being boots, specs, sub-protect, dd pure physical attacker (possibly with tera blast), and 4 attacks (typically scale shot, icicle spear, freeze dry, earth power). Kyurem ban advocates will tell you that whenever you see a Kyurem in team preview, you're playing roulette on the Kyurem set. This is simply untrue. Here's my experience with Kyurem counterplay.

1. Narrow down the range of likely sets.
Kyurem's set can be partially revealed from team-preview. If you see an HO or very offensive tea, the Kyurem is probably dd or 4 attacks. If you see a team with no hazard control, the Kyurem is probably boots. If you see a bulky offense with cinderace + corv and/or glowking, it's probably specs or sub-tect or 4a. The pace of the team you're facing can also reveal information about the Kyurem set. Fast paced teams are more likely going to be DD or 4a, while slower paced teams are more likely to be specs, boots, or sub-tect. Next, the item that Kyurem runs entirely gives away the set, so for example if you see lefties, you know its sub protect, or at least its like sub dd icicle spear tera blast or something wack like that. So instead of 5ish sets to guess from, you really only need to guess between 1-2 sets usually. Of course people can surprise you with specs on HO or sub-dd-tera blast on balance, but that goes for every mon with multiple sets, so it's really not an argument for banning Kyurem specifically. I would argue that determing the Kyurem set adds skill and rewards metagame knowledge, which are good qualities to have in a metagame.

2. Go into the appropriate response.
Now that you have an idea of what the Kyurem set is, we need to break down it's counterplay. Let's say that you made a mistake or your opponent positioned correctly and Kyurem is on the field facing a mon that it beats. What should you do? Like I mentioned in the previous section, you should first try to get an idea for what the Kyurem set is. Kyurem sets can be roughly categorized into 2 categories, fast and slow. Fast sets have a lot of immediate power, like specs or 4a, whereas slow sets like sub-protect try to win in the long term. If the Kyurem set is a "fast" set, go into your counter, like slowking-g or iron crown to scout the move, then react accordingly. If its a slow set, you can safely go into a phaser, like roar moltres or zamazenta (who won't take too much damage from a weak freeze dry or icicle spear) to force it out.

3. Now that Kyurem has attacked, use the damage calculator to figure out it's set
By looking at how much damage Kyurem has taken or dealt, you can much more precisely figure out its set and determine how to react the next time it gets to switch in, if it gets to at all.

I hope this helps anyone who thinks they're playing Kyurem roulette.

Too good at wallbreaking

Another common argument that pro-ban voters will use is that Kyurem is too good at wallbreaking. In a vacuum, Kyurem is an extremely effective wallbreaker and it's definitely in the top echelons of wallbreakers in the tier. However, the main reason why I think Kyurem is not broken is because it needs more support than the average wallbreaker to achieve it's stupendous wallbreaking feats.

Wallbreakers in SV come in many shapes and sizes, all requiring different levels of team support. On one end, you have super splashable wallbreakers like Ogerpon-wellspring and NP Darkrai, which require minimal team support. On the other end, you have stuff like choice specs modest walking wake in sun, which is 100x the wallbreaker that Kyurem will ever be, but obviously requires a lot more team support. Kyurem lies somewhere in the middle. As a wallbreaker, Kyurem really appreciates good hazard control, usually paring with a corv or a cinderace, if not both. It also really appreciates gking for the pivoting. Kyurem's slight lack of splashability and strict requirement of good hazard control for every set except boots, which kinda sucks imo, means that you must pay a price in teambuilding to utilize Kyurem's strengths. One must look at the trade-offs between power and team support to fully evaluate how strong a wall breaker is, and Kyurem requires enough building resources to check its wallbreaking power.

2 Kills per game

Another (bad) argument for Kyurem being broken is people arguing that since Kyurem averages 2 kills (I made that number up) against balance per game, it must be broken right! No, that's a surface level analysis and doesn't capture the whole picture. Any good wallbreaker will average 2 kills per game vs balance, whether it's ogerpon-wellspring, darkrai, or walking wake in sun. That's what a wallbreaker is

Weaknesses

Kyurem has many weaknesses that hold it back from dominating games the way it did in gen 8.

Longevity: Back when it had roost in gen 8, Kyurem could throw ice beams at you all game long since it had roost. Now without roost, it only has a few switch ins per game usually, and it takes really good play to get more than a few switch ins.

Weakness to knock off: you might argue that every mon is weak to knock off. However, Kyurem is especially weak to knock off since many sets rely greatly on the item, such as lefties on sub-protect or loaded dice on dd and 4 attacks sets. A more subtle way Kyurem is weak to knock off is that knocking off the item (or tricking) directly tells you the Kyurem set, reducing the threat level of Kyurem greatly. Thus, Kyurem has even fewer safe switch-in opportunities than you might expect. For example, Kyurem doesn't want to switch into Gliscor directly since if it gets knocked or toxic'ed, its really bad for Kyurem.

Bad defensive typing: Kyurem has a pretty poor defensive typing, with 5 common weaknesses to fighting, fairy, dragon, steel, and rock. It also only has 3 resistances, water and grass, which are not super common attacking types this gen. And of course it's electric resistance, which would help, except that the only OU electric type can drop a draco on Kyurem's fat ass. Its switch ins are therefore limited without pivot moves, which are more telegraphed if an opponent has Kyurem. This also makes Kyurem relatively weaker to defensive tera compared to other wallbreakers, since it's more likely that the teraing mon has a way to hit Kyurem for super effective damage. I'm not saying forcing defensive tera is acceptable, just that Kyurem is weak to defensive tera.

Lack of initial power aka Darkrai syndrome: Now I'm not saying this about specs, that has plenty of initial power, but most people don't find that set broken. Often times, when Kyurem tries to do something cute and quirky like set up subs and protect and stuff, just hit it hard neutrally and you can out damage it.

The real Kyurem roulette

Freeze. It's the ugly side of Kyurem, and it's probably the part of Kyurem I find the most uncompetitive. Is it too much? No, otherwise we would have booted darkrai for having basically the same phenomenon as well. Kyurem is limited in it's opportunities to freeze since it can really only switch in a few times per battle. There is also freeze counterplay as well. Garganacl (especially tera fairy) and tera gliscor are common balance staples that are completely immune to freeze that also beat Kyurem. AV mola also works here too.

Also an aspect of freeze that causes people to overestimate it is the thaw chance. When you see someone talk about an X% chance that Kyurem gets a freeze in N turns, you should really take that X and multiply it by 0.8, since there's a 20% chance of a turn 1 thaw. 10% chance might be bad, but 8% is a little less bad.

Also also, if you think freeze is uncompetitive, please ban zapdos from the tier. Yellow magic has caused far more hax than Kyurem ever could.

I hope that I've been able to highlight why Kyurem is less banworthy in practice than it seems like on paper. DNB on kyurem.

I'm gonna be honest, when I look at the situation of breakers in gen 9, a lot of them are, tbh, pretty banworthy.

Comparing to gen 8, which you need to rely a lot on choice item for that extra power or have to weigh between Choice Band Kart for damage or Choice Scarf Kart to revenge kill, gen 9 wallbreaking has been... insanely troublesome, as mons like Pon, Roaring Moon and Krai have both the power and the speed to threaten mons that they switch in and click set up move. Even using Zamazenta as a check feels like a broken check broken scenario, and there isn't anything else to switch into DDance Kyurem set outside that (unless you really consider Stalldozo).

I know, this is gen 9, but to be honest, I'm tired of this ridiculously high power metagame. 350 feels like a base speed now, coming from Waterpon that not only has the good STAB combination but also a good movepool. It can't wear items? Sure, but its item also comes with a free Life Orb boost without recoil.

The choices for defensive walls we have aren't really great IMO. Are Glowking, Moltres, Primarina good mons? Yeah they are, but comparing to the bazillion of things top offensive threats can do, they feel little in comparison.

 

[BolTingBlazie]

I'm gonna be honest, when I look at the situation of breakers in gen 9, a lot of them are, tbh, pretty banworthy.

Comparing to gen 8, which you need to rely a lot on choice item for that extra power or have to weigh between Choice Band Kart for damage or Choice Scarf Kart to revenge kill, gen 9 wallbreaking has been... insanely troublesome, as mons like Pon, Roaring Moon and Krai have both the power and the speed to threaten mons that they switch in and click set up move. Even using Zamazenta as a check feels like a broken check broken scenario, and there isn't anything else to switch into DDance Kyurem set outside that (unless you really consider Stalldozo).

I know, this is gen 9, but to be honest, I'm tired of this ridiculously high power metagame. 350 feels like a base speed now, coming from Waterpon that not only has the good STAB combination but also a good movepool. It can't wear items? Sure, but its item also comes with a free Life Orb boost without recoil.

The choices for defensive walls we have aren't really great IMO. Are Glowking, Moltres, Primarina good mons? Yeah they are, but comparing to the bazillion of things top offensive threats can do, they feel little in comparison.

Also if kyurem gets banned, I think Waterpon will likely rise in viability and might become suspect worthy so if you hate waterpon vote ban on kyurem I guess.

You should probably vote about what you all think about kyurem though don't think about the future that much

 

[ShizuOsaka]

Also if kyurem gets banned, I think Waterpon will likely rise in viability and might become suspect worthy so if you hate waterpon vote ban on kyurem I guess.

You should probably vote about what you all think about kyurem though don't think about the future that much

I did vote ban, and I used Kyurem specifically to get the req.
As I said, I just ran boots + 4 attacks, and I find that the only Pokemon I truly have problem against is Blissey. Every other "supposed" checks I run into like Glowking or Primarina doesn't like being chipped down at all.
Despite its "lower than the 350 gang" speed, Kyurem actually has ok enough bulk. It can survive 1 Play Rough from Waterpon at full, trade with Iron Moth with Earth Power (unless it teras). In addition, Boots Kyurem allows me to play a longer game against a lot of defensive walls. Knock Off sucks, but the only time I have ever found myself losing to Knock with Kyurem is against Stall.

 

[RS25802580]

I appreciate more experienced players dropping their thoughts about telegraphing Kyurem.

It seems the general heuristic shared by multiple players is that for Kyurem, HO = DDance or AoA, no removal = Boots, Ace + other remover = Subtect or Specs.

A question though. Wouldn’t builders at the high level now be tempted to go against these rules of thumb to take advantage of the element of surprise? Like slapping DDance Kyurem onto a removal-heavy team with Ace/Tusk? This seems like the natural next evolution in teambuilding to take advantage of the heuristics espoused by multiple top players.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

I implore more members than finch and ausma to make a post in this thread with their opinions about kyurem and the gen9 metagame. This council has 8 people (and used to have 10 which is way more than needed, ou councils used to have 5-7 max but i digress) so this is a bare minimum to request and would help many people reading this thread by being able to see what the literal players in charge of tiering think about it. I don’t find it fair to see Ctc 1v10 ignorant players and then the only post that comes from OU council is “WOAH WOAH WOAH LETS RESPECT BOTH SIDES!!!” ok so can yall who are supposed to be the best minds of the generation make some posts? If not, then why are most of you even on council? And if it is so hard as a council member to make a post explaining your thoughts on the metagame, then please make decisions as a massive 8 man council for the progression of the gen9ou tier and keep it pushing rather than continuing to draw out suspect tests like this. I was on OU council in gen6/7, it was literally mandated at one point that we as council members had to make posts explaining our thoughts and all around contributing to the competitive community. it does not matter if you guys tell me you discuss issues of the metagame in your council discord, we need to see real posts here in this thread.

In this thread, only finch and ausma have posted any time of "argument" around kyurem.
In the gouging suspect test thread only finch, ausma, and xavgb posted any "argument" around gouging fire
in the volcarona suspect test thread only finch and ausma have posted any "argument" about volcarona

I can keep going back but im not gonna waste my time, the volc suspect test was in april and as u can see the only people who are making posts about the ou metagame on forums from the ou council are the two who are most active and seem to be the face of the council. im sure maybe i will be responded to with "you have no idea what we discuss in our council discord and what goes into tiering" youre right, but also i was a council member before so i know you can sit there and do nothing if you want and stay on the council. posts from every council member are need going forward or we need some replacements.

as for kyurem itself, im vehemently anti-ban. its obvious atp what each set is, if u see a cinderace with blaze + hazard removal its specs, if u dont see removal and ur opponent is using spikes its probably boots, and if ur facing HO with samurott lead, its 70% of the time mix icicle spear. as for people crying about sub protect, i implore you to go to ting-lu, take 26% net from freeze dry after lefties and click whirlwind. I posted a 90 minute video with 3d and lax going over our thoughts and realizations about kyurem that you can watch I think it is pretty all encompassing of what kyurem is capable of, as well as the current state of the gen 9 ou metagame. However, with each passing day, I honestly become more anti-ban. I just don't think it's broken at all based on what i've seen in tournaments the past few weeks. i will admit that kyurem did seem more overwhelming about a month ago when subprot just dropped, but now seeing the main set be mixed and how easy it is to take advantage of (is literally hazard weak bruh), i cannot in good faith ban this pokemon when shit like kingambit runs around.

i also wanna say i truly respect tournament players not on council that post a lot, i cant remember everyone rn but shoutout akalli/wof/ziozio/storm/pais etc there are a lot of others but this just who i rmbr seeing post often. it is very necessary and appreciated when tournament players who are actually in the field give their opnions, even if its just bullet points or random thoughts/ideas. I dont even agree with like 70% of what wof says but he is one of my favorite posters to read.

heavily disagree about kyurem, but yeah, we really do need more council members to give their opinion. the decision to do this suspect only 2 weeks after the gouging ban was a 7-2 vote. to me that's an indication that at least some of those 7 members probably wanted kyurem gone as soon as possible. i'd like to see if their opinions have changed over the course of the suspect, and if not, how a post-kyurem ecosystem could possibly be navigated, because i don't see this meta ever being successful if kyurem remains in the tier

 

[Shaymin Sky]

I implore more members than finch and ausma to make a post in this thread with their opinions about kyurem and the gen9 metagame. This council has 8 people (and used to have 10 which is way more than needed, ou councils used to have 5-7 max but i digress) so this is a bare minimum to request and would help many people reading this thread by being able to see what the literal players in charge of tiering think about it. I don’t find it fair to see Ctc 1v10 ignorant players and then the only post that comes from OU council is “WOAH WOAH WOAH LETS RESPECT BOTH SIDES!!!” ok so can yall who are supposed to be the best minds of the generation make some posts? If not, then why are most of you even on council? And if it is so hard as a council member to make a post explaining your thoughts on the metagame, then please make decisions as a massive 8 man council for the progression of the gen9ou tier and keep it pushing rather than continuing to draw out suspect tests like this. I was on OU council in gen6/7, it was literally mandated at one point that we as council members had to make posts explaining our thoughts and all around contributing to the competitive community. it does not matter if you guys tell me you discuss issues of the metagame in your council discord, we need to see real posts here in this thread.

In this thread, only finch and ausma have posted any time of "argument" around kyurem.
In the gouging suspect test thread only finch, ausma, and xavgb posted any "argument" around gouging fire
in the volcarona suspect test thread only finch and ausma have posted any "argument" about volcarona

I can keep going back but im not gonna waste my time, the volc suspect test was in april and as u can see the only people who are making posts about the ou metagame on forums from the ou council are the two who are most active and seem to be the face of the council. im sure maybe i will be responded to with "you have no idea what we discuss in our council discord and what goes into tiering" youre right, but also i was a council member before so i know you can sit there and do nothing if you want and stay on the council. posts from every council member are need going forward or we need some replacements.

as for kyurem itself, im vehemently anti-ban. its obvious atp what each set is, if u see a cinderace with blaze + hazard removal its specs, if u dont see removal and ur opponent is using spikes its probably boots, and if ur facing HO with samurott lead, its 70% of the time mix icicle spear. as for people crying about sub protect, i implore you to go to ting-lu, take 26% net from freeze dry after lefties and click whirlwind. I posted a 90 minute video with 3d and lax going over our thoughts and realizations about kyurem that you can watch I think it is pretty all encompassing of what kyurem is capable of, as well as the current state of the gen 9 ou metagame. However, with each passing day, I honestly become more anti-ban. I just don't think it's broken at all based on what i've seen in tournaments the past few weeks. i will admit that kyurem did seem more overwhelming about a month ago when subprot just dropped, but now seeing the main set be mixed and how easy it is to take advantage of (is literally hazard weak bruh), i cannot in good faith ban this pokemon when shit like kingambit runs around.

i also wanna say i truly respect tournament players not on council that post a lot, i cant remember everyone rn but shoutout akalli/wof/ziozio/storm/pais etc there are a lot of others but this just who i rmbr seeing post often. it is very necessary and appreciated when tournament players who are actually in the field give their opnions, even if its just bullet points or random thoughts/ideas. I dont even agree with like 70% of what wof says but he is one of my favorite posters to read.

Got reqs, am 1900 with 86 gxe on account "ouzq suspect sux". saying this before discreditors come out.

This goes for the ban side, and do not ban side both. Kyurem isn't broken on an individual basis, it just isn't. It has counter play, its not running the metagame or anything it's usage isn't sky high and while it pressures certain archetypes hard it's not completely omnipotent against them. For the record I am pro ban on kyurem, and you'll see why in a moment.

Now that that's out of the way, SV OU is in a state of severe instability and volatility. This isn't because tera, this is proven because numerous lower tiers just aren't like this (RU for example). If you disagree on the meta being volatile/unstable you're quite frankly insane. Literally teams I ripped from OLT ladder and playoffs just a few weeks ago are now completely outdated, and this issue of teams being outdated because of constant week to week meta shifts has been a thing in DLC2 since day 1. Now you'll have people go "what's the problem with that" well 1. Do you seriously think the majority enjoys spending hours on 1 team all for it to be trash in 7-14 days, and 2. It feels very difficult to gauge ones progress in a tier as a player when things change so drastically and frequently. Now that I've proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that SV OU is troll atm, the issue is not because of any individual Pokemon but a combination of Pokemon contributing to an overall problem. The overall problem to SV OU is there being too much offensive high variance Tera abusers. There is literally no other problem besides this. Please look at this image.

There's a few more that aren't even in this list like Dragapult, Weavile, Samurott-Hisui, Great Tusk but the general idea is reached. There's an overwhelming abundance of offensive options in the tier. Here's where you have people go "well it's only like 15-17 offensive mons, its the same number as other gens!". WRONG. multiply that number by about 3, because TERA exist. See an offensive Pokemon Tera-ing basically becomes a completely different Pokemon that must be accounted for. Unlike defensive tera's which aren't really a problem since 95% of teams can naturally break through all types. When a Clefable Tera Grass it just switches what it loses to, while an offensive Tera allows it to beat more options and flips entire 1v1's while still maintaining that same buffed offensive pressure. By flipping 1v1's when being offensive, it gives you momentum unlike a defensive Pokemon who merely switches in sort of resetting the gamestate to neutral. I say all this to clarify that offensive Tera's are effectively a completely new Pokemon, as it changes too much to the gamestate, teambuilding, and general gameplay compared to defensive Tera's. There's nothing in the tier quite like Tera Flying Roaring Moon for example, it's essentially a unique Pokemon. When you understand this, I am sure you are now realizing why the tier is in the state it's in. We essentially have 50+ potent offensive options and this is even more problematic because you can plop multiple of the Pokemon as seen above on the same team. While some Tera's can be more obvious than others based off of team comp (which still is a tad shaky), it doesn't change the issue of being unable to prepare even decently for most of them. Currently with the offensive and defensive options we have, the tier is not able to handle so much offensive presence at once without the tier itself being extremely volatile. Out of the 50+ potential offensive options, every week there's a new Pokemon of the week that shreds whatever's popular that week. In fact we see this even further with suspect test, with gouging fire being tested then people prep for it then they just start losing to other mons like zamazenta, darkrai, kyurem etc. We saw this on the survey when iirc Darkrai was being talked a lot for about a week or 2 so everyone started using Zamazenta so then Zamazenta was the new problem of the week, but then around that time after is when Gouging Fire was used more and- you get it at this point.

So how do we fix this issue? Accounting for Tera there are around 50-60 give or take unique offensive options in the tier pressuring the metagame. None of the Pokemon on an individual basis are broken, so what do we do? Well it's simple, we ban them anyways. Suspect Test and general tiering isn't just if a Pokemon is broken. You can ban things whether it's uncompetitive, too centralizing, makes the tier unstable, or straight up too unfun. The player base has a consensus that you can only ban individually broken Pokemon, which is a false idea of how tiering actually works as it's more in depth than that. If Pokemon LIKE Kyurem are adding to the metagames instability then we ban the high variance offensive Tera abusers. Of course banning just Kyurem won't put much of a dent into the issue since Kyurem + Tera accounts for like 5-6 unique offensive options? But as we continue to ban more and more of them the tier will undoubtedly get it's footing for the first time in DLC 2. We'd definitely have to ban Kyurem, Gliscor, Kingambit, Zamazenta and likely Woger and Moon but if we don't make some serious ground in terms of mitigating the issue then this tier is stuck in this state of volatility forever, and I for one would really like to have any team last for more than 10 days.

Where does Tera Blast ban fit into this? I'm just gonna say this outright, I am for a Tera Blast ban but 1. It would never happen as it's not nearly as popular as it needs to be for this to occur and 2. Tera Blast accounts for about 6-8 Unique offensive options which is not the impact you think it is. Also anyone saying ban Tera Blast unban Volcarona is just like insane, because the issue is literally the 50+ unique offensive options possible via base mons + Tera...and you're saying to fix the problem then add to it AGAIN? LOL it just reads as "you don't know the tiers real problems" to me at least. I don't think Tera Blast ban is necessary, and the overall impact is just not much and the effort needed for it to become a popular idea is unrealistic, I think pushing for it is kind of wasting needless time but that's just my thoughts on it.

But what about fat? Dude seriously. Be for real please LOL. We have 50+ unique offensive options, there is literally LITERALLY no universe. No universe at all. Where somehow glowking and friends will perpetually wall the tier. This is like so absurd on so many levels. Even if this happens in theory, we just ban the Pokemon that's causing this issue. To which then these people will say "council never bans defensive mons its impossible" but then as much as they bring up glowking zap ting lu in their fake 3 month metagame, they somehow forget about the gliscor ban who was a defensive use case mon in a lot of teams and esp on stall lol. If you're argument hinges on "stall will be too good" (which has never happened besides in oras where they literally banned msableye), and exaggerating the results of a 3 months metagame, then it's probably not a good argument.

So now what? Ban Kyurem, then ban the next thing and the next and cut down the total list to 20-30 total unique offensive options. Realistically I'd say bans on Kyurem/Kingambit/Zama/Glisc/Woger(due to zama ban)/Moon at the very least will be needed. How we make tera work in the metagame is by having it be a SUPPLEMENT to a short list of offensive options, rather than it be an overturned option for a LARGE list of offensive options. RU makes it work, the base options for raw breakers and HO is quite limited but Tera gives the tier the needed offensive versatility to make all playstyles pretty balanced to one another. In OU this is not the case, people only look at the base roster and see "omg it's 15 offensive mons stall is gonna kill everything if we lose any!" and forget Tera makes offensive Pokemon entirely new unique Pokemon, so the real number is like 50-60 lmfao. We cut down on the amount of unique offensive options until majority archetypes are able to usually naturally cover the amount of unique offensive options, to clarify USUALLY not always. I do believe having a little sort of offensive edge makes things more dynamic, but right now covering the amount of unique offensive options isn't a "usually" its a "can't".

EDIT: because there will be some1 who says this, "why not just ban tera" lovely proposition but it's not possible, so now we need to spend time figuring out ways to make tera make the meta fun instead of what it makes the meta right now. Stop wasting your time.

Anyone arguing to ban kyurem for it being 'broken indidivually' or to not ban kyurem for it being 'not individually broken' is absurd / wrong / doesn't know the tier's overall issue bye, stop arguing about kyurem's brokenness that's literally not the tiers ACTUAL problem

No malice with this @ btw but genuinely want to see your thoughts on this CTC

 

[Lily]

blunder I agree with you that more council members than just Finch, ausma and the occasional +1 should be posting. When I first joined council and for a while before it I tried to engage much more than I do rn. The issue for me rn is that it mostly feels like it's just an opinion piece and not a discussion - there's no use in trying to argue with most of this thread's posters because it's just a case of having your shit picked apart and decontextualised and that's exhausting to respond to (nothing personal to the actives, sorry). This is something that a qualified voter discussion thread would definitely help with and I hope to see that implemented because right now it just feels like I'm putting my words on a pedestal and I don't like doing that, but abt attempt to engage is a waste of time.

Anyway re Kyurem: it's broken in any traditional vacuum. The defensive counterplay is just not there, it revolves around incredibly niche shitmons or sets and even those aren't foolproof or reasonable to fit outside of specific structures. With that said I agree with pretty much everything lax has said about Kyurem needing an item to be truly effective and thus being a massive victim of the hazard game which has gone on throughout the entirety of SV regardless of its presence. It's one of those "builder beater" mons where on paper there are just no answers to something so strong and so bulky with so much versatility but in practice it's a lot easier to beat 60% of a Kyurem than 100% of one.

Pre-GFire ban I felt way more strongly about Kyurem being stupid, partially because Kyurem happens to beat a lot of things you'd need to run for GFire and partially because the tier just had too many stupid Dragons that you couldn't reasonably account for. RN it feels more chill, building good teams isn't too difficult and Kyurem is far from the most prominent threat in the builder. With that said I still voted in favour of a suspect because anything this divisive deserves to have a light shone on it so we can actually decide if it's worth actioning, and I stand by that opinion regardless of result here.

Personally I'd still get rid of Kyurem if I could because I don't believe it contributes to a healthy tier dynamic in a way similar attackers so, but I don't think that's necessarily the best way to do things. So for that reason I likely won't vote; I don't feel strong enough one way or the other to feel like my vote should sway things and I'm fine with the tier regardless of Kyurem's presence. With that said I think the DNB arguments overall are stronger right now and encourage ban voters to think a bit more critically before posting their thoughts as a lot of what I've read up till now has been a bit sloppy.

 

[ShizuOsaka]

Got reqs, 1900 with 86 gxe. saying this before discreditors come out.

This goes for the ban side, and do not ban side both. Kyurem isn't broken on an individual basis, it just isn't. It has counter play, its not running the metagame or anything it's usage isn't sky high and while it pressures certain archetypes hard it's not completely omnipotent against them. For the record I am pro ban on kyurem, and you'll see why in a moment.

Now that that's out of the way, SV OU is in a state of severe instability and volatility. This isn't because tera, this is proven because numerous lower tiers just aren't like this (RU for example). If you disagree on the meta being volatile/unstable you're quite frankly insane, because literally teams I ripped from OLT ladder and playoffs just weeks ago are now completely outdated, and this issue of teams being outdated because of constant week to week meta shifts has been a thing in DLC2 since day 1. Now you'll have people go "what's the problem with that" well 1. Do you seriously think the majority enjoys spending hours on 1 team all for it to be trash in 7-14 days, and 2. It feels very difficult to gauge ones progress in a tier as a player when things change so drastically and frequently. Now that I've proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that SV OU is troll atm, the issue is not because of any individual Pokemon but a combination of Pokemon contributing to an overall problem. The overall problem to SV OU is there being too much offensive high variance Tera abusers. There is literally no other problem besides this. Please look at this image.
View attachment 672217
There's a few more that aren't even in this list like Dragapult, Weavile, Samurott-Hisui, Great Tusk but the general idea is reached. There's an overwhelming abundance of offensive options in the tier. Here's where you have people go "well it's only like 15-17 offensive mons, its the same number as other gens!". WRONG. multiply that number by about 3, because TERA exist. See an offensive Pokemon Tera-ing basically becomes a completely different Pokemon that must be accounted for. Unlike defensive tera's which aren't really a problem since 95% of teams can naturally break through all types. When a Clefable Tera Grass it just switches what it loses to, while an offensive Tera allows it to beat more options and flips entire 1v1's while still maintaining that same buffed offensive pressure. By flipping 1v1's when being offensive, it gives you momentum unlike a defensive Pokemon who merely switches in sort of resetting the gamestate to neutral. I say all this to clarify that offensive Tera's are effectively a completely new Pokemon, as it changes too much to the gamestate, teambuilding, and general gameplay compared to defensive Tera's. There's nothing in the tier quite like Tera Flying Roaring Moon for example, it's essentially a unique Pokemon. When you understand this, I am sure you are now realizing why the tier is in the state it's in. We essentially have 50+ potent offensive options and this is even more problematic because you can plop multiple of the Pokemon as seen above on the same team. While some Tera's can be more obvious than others based off of team comp (which still is a tad shaky), it doesn't change the issue of being unable to prepare even decently for most of them. Currently with the offensive and defensive options we have, the tier is not able to handle so much offensive presence at once without the tier itself being extremely volatile. Out of the 50+ potential offensive options, every week there's a new Pokemon of the week that shreds whatever's popular that week. In fact we see this even further with suspect test, with gouging fire being tested then people prep for it then they just start losing to other mons like zamazenta, darkrai, kyurem etc. We saw this on the survey when iirc Darkrai was being talked a lot for about a week or 2 so everyone started using Zamazenta so then Zamazenta was the new problem of the week, but then around that time after is when Gouging Fire was used more and- you get it at this point.

So how do we fix this issue? Accounting for Tera there are around 50-60 give or take unique offensive options in the tier pressuring the metagame. None of the Pokemon on an individual basis are broken, so what do we do? Well it's simple, we ban them anyways. Suspect Test and general tiering isn't just if a Pokemon is broken. You can ban things whether it's uncompetitive, too centralizing, makes the tier unstable, or straight up too unfun. The player base has a consensus that you can only ban individually broken Pokemon, which is a false idea of how tiering actually works as it's more in depth than that. If Pokemon LIKE Kyurem are adding to the metagames instability then we ban the high variance offensive Tera abusers. Of course banning just Kyurem won't put much of a dent into the issue since Kyurem + Tera accounts for like 5-6 unique offensive options? But as we continue to ban more and more of them the tier will undoubtedly get it's footing for the first time in DLC 2. We'd definitely have to ban Kyurem, Gliscor, Kingambit, Zamazenta and likely Woger and Moon but if we don't make some serious ground in terms of mitigating the issue then this tier is stuck in this state of volatility forever, and I for one would really like to have any team last for more than 10 days.

Where does Tera Blast ban fit into this? I'm just gonna say this outright, I am for a Tera Blast ban but 1. It would never happen as it's not nearly as popular as it needs to be for this to occur and 2. Tera Blast accounts for about 6-8 Unique offensive options which is not the impact you think it is. Also anyone saying ban Tera Blast unban Volcarona is just like insane, because the issue is literally the 50+ unique offensive options possible via base mons + Tera...and you're saying to fix the problem then add to it AGAIN? LOL it just reads as "you don't know the tiers real problems" to me at least. I don't think Tera Blast ban is necessary, and the overall impact is just not much and the effort needed for it to become a popular idea is unrealistic, I think pushing for it is kind of wasting needless time but that's just my thoughts on it.

But what about fat? Dude seriously. Be for real please LOL. We have 50+ unique offensive options, there is literally LITERALLY no universe. No universe at all. Where somehow glowking and friends will perpetually wall the tier. This is like so absurd on so many levels. Even if this happens in theory, we just ban the Pokemon that's causing this issue. To which then these people will say "council never bans defensive mons its impossible" but then as much as they bring up glowking zap ting lu in their fake 3 month metagame, they somehow forget about the gliscor ban who was a defensive use case mon in a lot of teams and esp on stall lol. If you're argument hinges on "stall will be too good" (which has never happened besides in oras where they literally banned msableye), and exaggerating the results of a 3 months metagame, then it's probably not a good argument.

So now what? Ban Kyurem, then ban the next thing and the next and cut down the total list to 20-30 total unique offensive options. Realistically I'd say bans on Kyurem/Kingambit/Zama/Glisc/Woger/Moon at the very least will be needed. How we make tera work in the metagame is by having it be a SUPPLEMENT to a short list of offensive options, rather than it be an overturned option for a LARGE list of offensive options. RU makes it work, the base options for raw breakers and HO is quite limited but Tera give the tier the needed offensive versatility to make all playstyles pretty balanced to one another. OU this is not the case, people only look at the base roster and see "omg it's 15 offensive mons stall is gonna kill everything if we lose any!" and forget Tera makes offensive Pokemon entirely new unique Pokemon, so the real number is like 50-60 lmfao. TLDR; we cut down on the amount of unique offensive options until majority archetypes are able to usually naturally cover the amount of unique offensive options, to clarify USUALLY not always. I do believe having a little sort of offensive edge makes things more dynamic, but right now covering the amount of unique offensive options isn't a "usually" its a "can't".


Anyone arguing to ban kyurem for it being 'broken indidivually' or to not ban kyurem for it being 'not individually broken' is absurd / wrong / doesn't know the tier's overall issue bye, stop arguing about kyurem's brokenness that's literally not the tiers ACTUAL problem

Finally, I have waited for this so much.

This is the exact issue I have with SVOU. The defensive walls, while are good, aren't enough against the onslaught of bazillions of good offensive threats that can set up in front of you.

The combination of speed + power + good set up moves + wide variety of coverages / options makes checking any of them a difficulty. A lot of times I find that having to run fazing moves in this kind of metagame is just a good example of how ridiculous set-up sweepers have become.

 

[Hydrametr0nice]

Also if kyurem gets banned, I think Waterpon will likely rise in viability and might become suspect worthy so if you hate waterpon vote ban on kyurem I guess.

You should probably vote about what you all think about kyurem though don't think about the future that much

Sorry, I've been reading this forum and didn’t really want to get involved. I just want to point out that it’s a bit hypocritical of you to ask people not to vote DNB while theorizing what the tier could become after a potential Kyurem ban, and then beg for the ban so that Ogerpon-Wellspring may become suspect test material.

 

[BolTingBlazie]

Sorry, I've been reading this forum and didn’t really want to get involved. I just want to point out that it’s a bit hypocritical of you to ask people not to vote DNB while theorizing what the tier could become after a potential Kyurem ban, and then beg for the ban so that Ogerpon-Wellspring may become suspect test material.

It is hypocritical yeah, that is why I said don't think about the future for right now after that. Because I realized that it was

 

[Akalli]

I fully echo blunder's post about the council reluctance to participate in suspect tests. The reality of things is these are maybe the most crucial moments of our tier, so to see more than half of the council outright not give a shit about suspect threads (I can only make my opinion based on the things I see as an outsider, and this is the impression it gives me) is pretty infuriating to say the least. It's even more annoying that this has to be spelled out really as this should be the bare minimum expected from the people that lead our metagame. For the entirety of the generation we've had like 2-3/10 members of the council posting their thoughts in the threads which is something I already brought up before during DLC 1 with Niko and was told it was an area of improvement but if anything the issue has been even worse since then. Are you too above us that you can't post quick thoughts in a thread? We're not asking for bible of words to come from you guys, Lily's above post for example is perfect and I bet it didn't take more than 10 minutes. I really appreciate the wake up call and you ending up posting your thoughts. I encourage the remaining members to do just the same if you even care.

To follow the footsteps of blunder's post, I appreciate everyone who has been involved and who was fighting for what they believed to be the best for the tier. Shoutouts to Finch in particular who as a council member has never skipped on being active in a single suspect thread. And to regular OU tournaments players, while I don't blame you for not participating in these threads because it can really feel discouraging sometimes due to some people that are allowed to yap in here, I hope more of you will come around and start giving your opinions more and more. Honestly the reqs separation thread could not come any sooner and I'm excited at the idea of it.

 

[Shaymin Sky]

Got reqs, am 1900 with 86 gxe on account "ouzq suspect sux". saying this before discreditors come out.

This goes for the ban side, and do not ban side both. Kyurem isn't broken on an individual basis, it just isn't. It has counter play, its not running the metagame or anything it's usage isn't sky high and while it pressures certain archetypes hard it's not completely omnipotent against them. For the record I am pro ban on kyurem, and you'll see why in a moment.

Now that that's out of the way, SV OU is in a state of severe instability and volatility. This isn't because tera, this is proven because numerous lower tiers just aren't like this (RU for example). If you disagree on the meta being volatile/unstable you're quite frankly insane. Literally teams I ripped from OLT ladder and playoffs just a few weeks ago are now completely outdated, and this issue of teams being outdated because of constant week to week meta shifts has been a thing in DLC2 since day 1. Now you'll have people go "what's the problem with that" well 1. Do you seriously think the majority enjoys spending hours on 1 team all for it to be trash in 7-14 days, and 2. It feels very difficult to gauge ones progress in a tier as a player when things change so drastically and frequently. Now that I've proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that SV OU is troll atm, the issue is not because of any individual Pokemon but a combination of Pokemon contributing to an overall problem. The overall problem to SV OU is there being too much offensive high variance Tera abusers. There is literally no other problem besides this. Please look at this image.
View attachment 672217
There's a few more that aren't even in this list like Dragapult, Weavile, Samurott-Hisui, Great Tusk but the general idea is reached. There's an overwhelming abundance of offensive options in the tier. Here's where you have people go "well it's only like 15-17 offensive mons, its the same number as other gens!". WRONG. multiply that number by about 3, because TERA exist. See an offensive Pokemon Tera-ing basically becomes a completely different Pokemon that must be accounted for. Unlike defensive tera's which aren't really a problem since 95% of teams can naturally break through all types. When a Clefable Tera Grass it just switches what it loses to, while an offensive Tera allows it to beat more options and flips entire 1v1's while still maintaining that same buffed offensive pressure. By flipping 1v1's when being offensive, it gives you momentum unlike a defensive Pokemon who merely switches in sort of resetting the gamestate to neutral. I say all this to clarify that offensive Tera's are effectively a completely new Pokemon, as it changes too much to the gamestate, teambuilding, and general gameplay compared to defensive Tera's. There's nothing in the tier quite like Tera Flying Roaring Moon for example, it's essentially a unique Pokemon. When you understand this, I am sure you are now realizing why the tier is in the state it's in. We essentially have 50+ potent offensive options and this is even more problematic because you can plop multiple of the Pokemon as seen above on the same team. While some Tera's can be more obvious than others based off of team comp (which still is a tad shaky), it doesn't change the issue of being unable to prepare even decently for most of them. Currently with the offensive and defensive options we have, the tier is not able to handle so much offensive presence at once without the tier itself being extremely volatile. Out of the 50+ potential offensive options, every week there's a new Pokemon of the week that shreds whatever's popular that week. In fact we see this even further with suspect test, with gouging fire being tested then people prep for it then they just start losing to other mons like zamazenta, darkrai, kyurem etc. We saw this on the survey when iirc Darkrai was being talked a lot for about a week or 2 so everyone started using Zamazenta so then Zamazenta was the new problem of the week, but then around that time after is when Gouging Fire was used more and- you get it at this point.

So how do we fix this issue? Accounting for Tera there are around 50-60 give or take unique offensive options in the tier pressuring the metagame. None of the Pokemon on an individual basis are broken, so what do we do? Well it's simple, we ban them anyways. Suspect Test and general tiering isn't just if a Pokemon is broken. You can ban things whether it's uncompetitive, too centralizing, makes the tier unstable, or straight up too unfun. The player base has a consensus that you can only ban individually broken Pokemon, which is a false idea of how tiering actually works as it's more in depth than that. If Pokemon LIKE Kyurem are adding to the metagames instability then we ban the high variance offensive Tera abusers. Of course banning just Kyurem won't put much of a dent into the issue since Kyurem + Tera accounts for like 5-6 unique offensive options? But as we continue to ban more and more of them the tier will undoubtedly get it's footing for the first time in DLC 2. We'd definitely have to ban Kyurem, Gliscor, Kingambit, Zamazenta and likely Woger and Moon but if we don't make some serious ground in terms of mitigating the issue then this tier is stuck in this state of volatility forever, and I for one would really like to have any team last for more than 10 days.

Where does Tera Blast ban fit into this? I'm just gonna say this outright, I am for a Tera Blast ban but 1. It would never happen as it's not nearly as popular as it needs to be for this to occur and 2. Tera Blast accounts for about 6-8 Unique offensive options which is not the impact you think it is. Also anyone saying ban Tera Blast unban Volcarona is just like insane, because the issue is literally the 50+ unique offensive options possible via base mons + Tera...and you're saying to fix the problem then add to it AGAIN? LOL it just reads as "you don't know the tiers real problems" to me at least. I don't think Tera Blast ban is necessary, and the overall impact is just not much and the effort needed for it to become a popular idea is unrealistic, I think pushing for it is kind of wasting needless time but that's just my thoughts on it.

But what about fat? Dude seriously. Be for real please LOL. We have 50+ unique offensive options, there is literally LITERALLY no universe. No universe at all. Where somehow glowking and friends will perpetually wall the tier. This is like so absurd on so many levels. Even if this happens in theory, we just ban the Pokemon that's causing this issue. To which then these people will say "council never bans defensive mons its impossible" but then as much as they bring up glowking zap ting lu in their fake 3 month metagame, they somehow forget about the gliscor ban who was a defensive use case mon in a lot of teams and esp on stall lol. If you're argument hinges on "stall will be too good" (which has never happened besides in oras where they literally banned msableye), and exaggerating the results of a 3 months metagame, then it's probably not a good argument.

So now what? Ban Kyurem, then ban the next thing and the next and cut down the total list to 20-30 total unique offensive options. Realistically I'd say bans on Kyurem/Kingambit/Zama/Glisc/Woger/Moon at the very least will be needed. How we make tera work in the metagame is by having it be a SUPPLEMENT to a short list of offensive options, rather than it be an overturned option for a LARGE list of offensive options. RU makes it work, the base options for raw breakers and HO is quite limited but Tera gives the tier the needed offensive versatility to make all playstyles pretty balanced to one another. In OU this is not the case, people only look at the base roster and see "omg it's 15 offensive mons stall is gonna kill everything if we lose any!" and forget Tera makes offensive Pokemon entirely new unique Pokemon, so the real number is like 50-60 lmfao. We cut down on the amount of unique offensive options until majority archetypes are able to usually naturally cover the amount of unique offensive options, to clarify USUALLY not always. I do believe having a little sort of offensive edge makes things more dynamic, but right now covering the amount of unique offensive options isn't a "usually" its a "can't".

EDIT: because there will be some1 who says this, "why not just ban tera" lovely proposition but it's not possible, so now we need to spend time figuring out ways to make tera make the meta fun instead of what it makes the meta right now. Stop wasting your time.

Anyone arguing to ban kyurem for it being 'broken indidivually' or to not ban kyurem for it being 'not individually broken' is absurd / wrong / doesn't know the tier's overall issue bye, stop arguing about kyurem's brokenness that's literally not the tiers ACTUAL problem

No malice with this @ btw but genuinely want to see your thoughts on this CTC

Also I specifically want council to really REALLY think on this issue. In my opinion SV OU is in a tiering emergency. The tier has been incredibly volatile and flip floppy for going on 8 months after the obvious bans of arch/terapagos. The playerbase is unable to correctly identify the true tiering issues SV OU has and it's reflected pretty well in the outcome of the past suspect test + the retest we are seeing now, as well as all post from DNB/Ban crowd not mentioning the real overall issue sv ou has. If the tier cannot remain in a stable state without big shifts week to week, with this problem lasting for more than half a year there's a problem. Suspect test are good but they are generally bad when it comes to COMPLEX tiering problems. We saw this with the tera test, we've seen this in the past with uncompetitive strategies like Arena Trap. Generally speaking when a tiering issue isn't "is this Pokemon individually too broken" suspect test struggles to accurately weigh in on this because the average voter isn't look at it too hard beyond "meh this mons too weak/strong in a vacuum". This is one of those situations where I honestly think we let council deal with this issue of too many unique offensive options in the tier, as the playerbase can't even figure out "kyurem being broken on its own or not" isn't the root cause of this suspect test. The metagame is unstable because there's 50-60 unique offensive options (accounting for tera which an offensive tera is a unique Pokemon essentially). Kyurem is being tested because it contributes to that issue, but we have people unable to see this and think "well we usually only ban pokemon for being broken, and not overall effects/contributions to the meta". Suspect Test won't and can't work for a situation like this, people think of suspect test in a vacuum, stick to council voting until the issue SV OU has isn't metagame wide and becomes Pokemon specific. It's also important to note that the week to week unstable meta shifts drastically influence the outcome of survey's and Suspect Test making them less impactful/reliable. I implore you to consider moving to council only votes for future decisions as SV OU's tiering issue is too complex for the general playerbase to be able to weigh in on or solve effectively.

 

[UltraSword]

Hey guys it’s me the OLT champion and best SV OU player on the website. In a serious vein, despite not wanting to play in major tours recently (SCL OLT), I’ve been keeping up with the meta as a manager of the Shoguns and love to load up games at the top of the ladder if I have some free time. Think I’m top 3 or 5 rn. Here are my thoughts re: Kyurem

Dice/DD are probably the most efficient sets. Dice is my personal favorite bc it has hardly any switch ins smoking counters to special Kyu like Spdef Molt/GloK. If any set were to be broken, it’d probably be this set. It does require some semblance of predicting and is hampered by hazards, so it’s not like you can just load it up and guarantee it will win you on the spot. It’ll create openings and break your opp’s teams down if you let it

However, I think the BIGgest thing holding Kyu down is how the meta has shifted accordingly. Personally, I find the Hazard game to be the most important aspect of SV OU rn. It’s why people spam Ting and Ghold/Pech more than ever rn. Keeping your ups and pressuring your opps is the best way to win games rn.

Kyu needs an item to be relevant, period. Boots is way too weak and Dice gives that extra boost from low bp to guaranteed 100 power minimum while also letting Kyu hit powerful on the special side. NMI boosts its special capabilities by a lot while also helping Spear hit strong and negating part of the RNG from using a multi hit move. Specs is specs, lol, and if you don’t use a boosting item, lefties + tect is needed in order to actually guarantee Kyu can spam a ton of hits in safely and fish for my freezes + PP stall. Bottom line is Kyurem NEEDS an item

I think the meta has actually adjusted ok since the Goug ban (except for Gliscor) in response to Kyu specifically. I never see games where it just takes over and dominates. Looking at SCL, its most notable win was turning Ghost vs Normal Dnite and getting a free set up while being unrevengable by Dnite. This was a cool tech and not even on Smogdex aka required a niche set to put in major work. (Didn’t even fact check that’s how confident I am) Kyu hasn’t really had any other relevant games of plowing over stuff.

I think Kyu keeps a lot of stuff in check and actually involves a solid amount of skill. Sure, getting frozen fkin sux, but it won’t happen that often and cannot be worse than a Darkrai clicking pulse and flinching you instantly. People say not to try and predict what the meta will become, but I think it’s important to evaluate the impact a mon leaving will have on the tier and that rn, Kyu isn’t even the worst thing in the tier. It’s very obviously Gliscor and the ever-looming Kingambit

TL;DR: if you’re struggling into Kyurem, look into your hazard game. It is the most important aspect of SV OU rn and completely stops Kyurem as it NEEDS an item to succeed

Ok I know I said I had made my last post but THIS DUDE IS RIGHT! I know I have said before that knock off (and losing your item in general) is really a problem for every pokemon but I completely forgot that it affects every pokemon differently. On both physical and special sets kyurem cannot afford to lose its item.

On dragon dance sets losing dice is horrible as it makes kyurem's attacks far less effective and way more luck based. Not getting the kill on certain pokemon can be very devastating for kyurem as while it is not exactly weak defensively it can't take too much damage from its counters or it will be defeated very easily whether from actual attacks or status.

On special sets (like the infamous subtect) it cannot afford to lose heavy duty boots because if it does and has to switch in on stealth rock it will lose a chunk of health (approximately 24%) while you just sit there and think "why?" Kyurem is also somewhat slow for a Gen 9 pokemon so it might not be fast enough to substitute afterwards before it gets killed and/or statused.

In general kyurem cannot lose its item for the reasons listed above and possibly others that I have not realized. For real this time this is my last post on the kyurem suspect so...have fun voting I guess lol.

Edit: also to Shaymin Sky I feel like maybe what we need to do is wait a few months before we do the next suspect test because the tier may be too volatile to know for sure what is broken and what isn't. I would say we wait until at least like January of next year.

 

[Moisture99]

Also I specifically want council to really REALLY think on this issue. In my opinion SV OU is in a tiering emergency. The tier has been incredibly volatile and flip floppy for going on 8 months after the obvious bans of arch/terapagos. The playerbase is unable to correctly identify the true tiering issues SV OU has and it's reflected pretty well in the outcome of the past suspect test + the retest we are seeing now, as well as all post from DNB/Ban crowd not mentioning the real overall issue sv ou has. If the tier cannot remain in a stable state without big shifts week to week, with this problem lasting for more than half a year there's a problem. Suspect test are good but they are generally bad when it comes to COMPLEX tiering problems. We saw this with the tera test, we've seen this in the past with uncompetitive strategies like Arena Trap. Generally speaking when a tiering issue isn't "is this Pokemon individually too broken" suspect test struggles to accurately weigh in on this because the average voter isn't look at it too hard beyond "meh this mons too weak/strong in a vacuum". This is one of those situations where I honestly think we let council deal with this issue of too many unique offensive options in the tier, as the playerbase can't even figure out "kyurem being broken on its own or not" isn't the root cause of this suspect test. The metagame is unstable because there's 50-60 unique offensive options (accounting for tera which an offensive tera is a unique Pokemon essentially). Kyurem is being tested because it contributes to that issue, but we have people unable to see this and think "well we usually only ban pokemon for being broken, and not overall effects/contributions to the meta". Suspect Test won't and can't work for a situation like this, people think of suspect test in a vacuum, stick to council voting until the issue SV OU has isn't metagame wide and becomes Pokemon specific. It's also important to note that the week to week unstable meta shifts drastically influence the outcome of survey's and Suspect Test making them less impactful/reliable. I implore you to consider moving to council only votes for future decisions as SV OU's tiering issue is too complex for the general playerbase to be able to weigh in on or solve effectively.

1. It is absurd to assume that each tera counts as an extra new mon. It's not like tera generates an entirely new offensive profile, like what? Ur telling us tera fire gambit and tera fairy gambit r as different from each other as raging bolt is from ogerpon? It's not like these mons get new coverage or anything (with the exception of tera blast), it's mainly just they flip one MU and generate like 1-2 free turns. This isn't a small thing, but it's still far from 20 mons suddenly becoming 60??? Tera blast is a different story, but that can/should be dealt with on its own... we don't need to ban half the tier

2. Asking the council to just abandon the democratic tiering process cuz the general playerbase is apparently too stupid to figure out the real issue that only u seem capable of identifying is quite insane. Not sure why your opinion should matter more than the numerous top players here who either don't view sv ou as some sort of unplayable hellhole, or they do, but still disagree with u on how to resolve it... Anyway, the future qualified suspect threads would act as a pretty good filter if u want to discuss a complex problem regardless

 

[ausma]

Personally, I would love to see more people from the council making posts.

To be entirely blunt (and not with the intent of diminishing my own abilities), I am not really on the council on the same basis as current councilmen like xavgb or past councilmen like Vert. While I have experience interacting with the tier at a high level (I managed the winning WCoP team, have gotten reqs well over a dozen times, and have reached top 100 numerous times on the ladder as well) I recognize that I’m mostly on it for my knowledge on the tier. As such, I don’t really have the same level of insight on the tier as people who actively have played in these major tournaments; I am willing to admit that.

However, that makes their experience and insight a learning experience for me, just as much as it can be for others. I have the luxury of getting to talk and discuss the metagame with councilmen prior to major decisions being made, such as with suspects or survey components, and that really helps me a lot both as a thinker and battler. As such, I think it’s definitely important for those who have an opinion to make their opinions known. Experience in the tier and common tier dynamics is a quality that’s incredibly valuable and greatly helps reinforce arguments in a pragmatic light, pro-ban or not. Although I disagree with players like CTC and SupaGMoney regarding Kyurem’s balance, I cannot undermine how much their experience helps shape their stances, and I think that can be valuable so long as said players are respectful and open-minded.

That being said, I don’t think councilmen need to be expunged if they aren’t super vocal. I do think it would be great for them to speak out more, and I think they should, but there are a lot of complications to activity when you consider tournament presence and IRL situations; the reality is that work + life balance is important and should be top priority. They should make themselves heard, but they shouldn’t stress hard about being super elaborate since there absolutely is a time investment behind writing posts and posting actively in general, speaking as someone who is on Senior Staff, the CAP moderation team, and is heavily involved with managerial work in OU as a whole. Lily’s post went about it perfectly I think; she’s extremely busy across the site and IRL, but made a short and sweet post that captured the sentiment behind her stance perfectly without taking up too much time. I support that style of vocalization specifically!

 

[Shaymin Sky]

1. It is absurd to assume that each tera counts as an extra new mon. It's not like tera generates an entirely new offensive profile, like what? Ur telling us tera fire gambit and tera fairy gambit r as different from each other as raging bolt is from ogerpon? It's not like these mons get new coverage or anything (with the exception of tera blast), it's mainly just they flip one MU and generate like 1-2 free turns. This isn't a small thing, but it's still far from 20 mons suddenly becoming 60??? Tera blast is a different story, but that can/should be dealt with on its own... we don't need to ban half the tier

2. Asking the council to just abandon the democratic tiering process cuz the general playerbase is apparently too stupid to figure out the real issue that only u seem capable of identifying is quite insane. Not sure why your opinion should matter more than the numerous top players here who either don't view sv ou as some sort of unplayable hellhole, or they do, but still disagree with u on how to resolve it... Anyway, the future qualified suspect threads would act as a pretty good filter if u want to discuss a complex problem regardless

"Ur telling us tera fire gambit and tera fairy gambit r as different from each other as raging bolt is from ogerpon?" .....YEAH? LOL each gambit requires very different counterplay from eachother and each gambit can beat a variety of different mons depending on the tera, to a degree that they essentially aren't the same Pokemon. While they don't gain extra coverage unless using Tera Blast, you still beat new pokemon. By resisting/being immune to things and have very strong offensive value you can tank hits and kill things u previously couldnt either do to utility like status or being threatened to die. Even a purely defensive tera like fire for an offensive Pokemon like kingambit allows it to have NEW offensive value, to a degree where its not really comparable to the base form in terms of how to beat it. This gets even more problematic vs higher and higher and higher levels of play.

To your second point, it's not democratic there's a barrier. Several other people are able to identify the real issue but either don't post or are too wrapped into the other side issue of if kyurem is broken. I don't really care if people disagree with me, the issue with the tier is pretty apparent, and ok some people prefer the volatility of the tier and enjoy it but that doesn't mean it makes the tier more competitive lol. And I think you are vastly over-estimating the relationship of player gameplay skill and tiering skill.

Moving torwards council only votes for a complex tiering issue like 'too many unique offensive options' is ideal, the fact that you literally just said tera fire kingambit and tera fairy kingambit aren't distinct PROVES my point that the general playerbase cannot discuss/handle complex tiering issues and that this is where council should step in.

Anyways I don't want my OP to get derailed too much so to anyone reading go read my OP if u havn't, its above lily's post on this page

 

[BolTingBlazie]

I fully echo blunder's post about the council reluctance to participate in suspect tests. The reality of things is these are maybe the most crucial moments of our tier, so to see more than half of the council outright not give a shit about suspect threads (I can only make my opinion based on the things I see as an outsider, and this is the impression it gives me) is pretty infuriating to say the least. It's even more annoying that this has to be spelled out really as this should be the bare minimum expected from the people that lead our metagame. For the entirety of the generation we've had like 2-3/10 members of the council posting their thoughts in the threads which is something I already brought up before during DLC 1 with Niko and was told it was an area of improvement but if anything the issue has been even worse since then. Are you too above us that you can't post quick thoughts in a thread? We're not asking for bible of words to come from you guys, Lily's above post for example is perfect and I bet it didn't take more than 10 minutes. I really appreciate the wake up call and you ending up posting your thoughts. I encourage the remaining members to do just the same if you even care.

To follow the footsteps of blunder's post, I appreciate everyone who has been involved and who was fighting for what they believed to be the best for the tier. Shoutouts to Finch in particular who as a council member has never skipped on being active in a single suspect thread. And to regular OU tournaments players, while I don't blame you for not participating in these threads because it can really feel discouraging sometimes due to some people that are allowed to yap in here, I hope more of you will come around and start giving your opinions more and more. Honestly the reqs separation thread could not come any sooner and I'm excited at the idea of it.

Yeah shout out to Ausma and Finch who are always keeping an eye on the suspect discussions and almost always participating