incredibly well saidGot reqs, am 1900 with 86 gxe on account "ouzq suspect sux". saying this before discreditors come out.
This goes for the ban side, and do not ban side both. Kyurem isn't broken on an individual basis, it just isn't. It has counter play, its not running the metagame or anything it's usage isn't sky high and while it pressures certain archetypes hard it's not completely omnipotent against them. For the record I am pro ban on kyurem, and you'll see why in a moment.
Now that that's out of the way, SV OU is in a state of severe instability and volatility. This isn't because tera, this is proven because numerous lower tiers just aren't like this (RU for example). If you disagree on the meta being volatile/unstable you're quite frankly insane. Literally teams I ripped from OLT ladder and playoffs just a few weeks ago are now completely outdated, and this issue of teams being outdated because of constant week to week meta shifts has been a thing in DLC2 since day 1. Now you'll have people go "what's the problem with that" well 1. Do you seriously think the majority enjoys spending hours on 1 team all for it to be trash in 7-14 days, and 2. It feels very difficult to gauge ones progress in a tier as a player when things change so drastically and frequently. Now that I've proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that SV OU is troll atm, the issue is not because of any individual Pokemon but a combination of Pokemon contributing to an overall problem. The overall problem to SV OU is there being too much offensive high variance Tera abusers. There is literally no other problem besides this. Please look at this image.
View attachment 672217
There's a few more that aren't even in this list like Dragapult, Weavile, Samurott-Hisui, Great Tusk but the general idea is reached. There's an overwhelming abundance of offensive options in the tier. Here's where you have people go "well it's only like 15-17 offensive mons, its the same number as other gens!". WRONG. multiply that number by about 3, because TERA exist. See an offensive Pokemon Tera-ing basically becomes a completely different Pokemon that must be accounted for. Unlike defensive tera's which aren't really a problem since 95% of teams can naturally break through all types. When a Clefable Tera Grass it just switches what it loses to, while an offensive Tera allows it to beat more options and flips entire 1v1's while still maintaining that same buffed offensive pressure. By flipping 1v1's when being offensive, it gives you momentum unlike a defensive Pokemon who merely switches in sort of resetting the gamestate to neutral. I say all this to clarify that offensive Tera's are effectively a completely new Pokemon, as it changes too much to the gamestate, teambuilding, and general gameplay compared to defensive Tera's. There's nothing in the tier quite like Tera Flying Roaring Moon for example, it's essentially a unique Pokemon. When you understand this, I am sure you are now realizing why the tier is in the state it's in. We essentially have 50+ potent offensive options and this is even more problematic because you can plop multiple of the Pokemon as seen above on the same team. While some Tera's can be more obvious than others based off of team comp (which still is a tad shaky), it doesn't change the issue of being unable to prepare even decently for most of them. Currently with the offensive and defensive options we have, the tier is not able to handle so much offensive presence at once without the tier itself being extremely volatile. Out of the 50+ potential offensive options, every week there's a new Pokemon of the week that shreds whatever's popular that week. In fact we see this even further with suspect test, with gouging fire being tested then people prep for it then they just start losing to other mons like zamazenta, darkrai, kyurem etc. We saw this on the survey when iirc Darkrai was being talked a lot for about a week or 2 so everyone started using Zamazenta so then Zamazenta was the new problem of the week, but then around that time after is when Gouging Fire was used more and- you get it at this point.
So how do we fix this issue? Accounting for Tera there are around 50-60 give or take unique offensive options in the tier pressuring the metagame. None of the Pokemon on an individual basis are broken, so what do we do? Well it's simple, we ban them anyways. Suspect Test and general tiering isn't just if a Pokemon is broken. You can ban things whether it's uncompetitive, too centralizing, makes the tier unstable, or straight up too unfun. The player base has a consensus that you can only ban individually broken Pokemon, which is a false idea of how tiering actually works as it's more in depth than that. If Pokemon LIKE Kyurem are adding to the metagames instability then we ban the high variance offensive Tera abusers. Of course banning just Kyurem won't put much of a dent into the issue since Kyurem + Tera accounts for like 5-6 unique offensive options? But as we continue to ban more and more of them the tier will undoubtedly get it's footing for the first time in DLC 2. We'd definitely have to ban Kyurem, Gliscor, Kingambit, Zamazenta and likely Woger and Moon but if we don't make some serious ground in terms of mitigating the issue then this tier is stuck in this state of volatility forever, and I for one would really like to have any team last for more than 10 days.
Where does Tera Blast ban fit into this? I'm just gonna say this outright, I am for a Tera Blast ban but 1. It would never happen as it's not nearly as popular as it needs to be for this to occur and 2. Tera Blast accounts for about 6-8 Unique offensive options which is not the impact you think it is. Also anyone saying ban Tera Blast unban Volcarona is just like insane, because the issue is literally the 50+ unique offensive options possible via base mons + Tera...and you're saying to fix the problem then add to it AGAIN? LOL it just reads as "you don't know the tiers real problems" to me at least. I don't think Tera Blast ban is necessary, and the overall impact is just not much and the effort needed for it to become a popular idea is unrealistic, I think pushing for it is kind of wasting needless time but that's just my thoughts on it.
But what about fat? Dude seriously. Be for real please LOL. We have 50+ unique offensive options, there is literally LITERALLY no universe. No universe at all. Where somehow glowking and friends will perpetually wall the tier. This is like so absurd on so many levels. Even if this happens in theory, we just ban the Pokemon that's causing this issue. To which then these people will say "council never bans defensive mons its impossible" but then as much as they bring up glowking zap ting lu in their fake 3 month metagame, they somehow forget about the gliscor ban who was a defensive use case mon in a lot of teams and esp on stall lol. If you're argument hinges on "stall will be too good" (which has never happened besides in oras where they literally banned msableye), and exaggerating the results of a 3 months metagame, then it's probably not a good argument.
So now what? Ban Kyurem, then ban the next thing and the next and cut down the total list to 20-30 total unique offensive options. Realistically I'd say bans on Kyurem/Kingambit/Zama/Glisc/Woger/Moon at the very least will be needed. How we make tera work in the metagame is by having it be a SUPPLEMENT to a short list of offensive options, rather than it be an overturned option for a LARGE list of offensive options. RU makes it work, the base options for raw breakers and HO is quite limited but Tera gives the tier the needed offensive versatility to make all playstyles pretty balanced to one another. In OU this is not the case, people only look at the base roster and see "omg it's 15 offensive mons stall is gonna kill everything if we lose any!" and forget Tera makes offensive Pokemon entirely new unique Pokemon, so the real number is like 50-60 lmfao. We cut down on the amount of unique offensive options until majority archetypes are able to usually naturally cover the amount of unique offensive options, to clarify USUALLY not always. I do believe having a little sort of offensive edge makes things more dynamic, but right now covering the amount of unique offensive options isn't a "usually" its a "can't".
EDIT: because there will be some1 who says this, "why not just ban tera" lovely proposition but it's not possible, so now we need to spend time figuring out ways to make tera make the meta fun instead of what it makes the meta right now. Stop wasting your time.
Anyone arguing to ban kyurem for it being 'broken indidivually' or to not ban kyurem for it being 'not individually broken' is absurd / wrong / doesn't know the tier's overall issue bye, stop arguing about kyurem's brokenness that's literally not the tiers ACTUAL problem
No malice with this @ btw but genuinely want to see your thoughts on this CTC
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Announcement np: SV OU Suspect Process, Round 14 - Hazy Shade of Winter
- Thread starter Finchinator
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incredibly well said
I dont wanna dive too deep into this. I will address a few things that I feel are misconceptions:
"Kyurem is a non-factor against offense"
I actually disagree with this. Sure the most popular subtect set might be a little mid against offensive teams but it can still trade against some key mons like roaring moon and force in Zama. I think the other sets are a lot more dangerous in general like scale shot mixed and DD and even Specs especially with snow support making it even bulkier and harder to take down. Ppl forget but offense has a bunch of mons that get scared out by Kyurem especially with bulky pivots like Slowking or even Alo giving a free entry point. Offensive mons like Great Tusk, Lando, Rillaboom,H-rott, Lu, Bolt, Nite all mons you commonly run on offensive or bulky offensive structures that dont like Kyurem's presence. Specs Kyurem, thanks to its bulk and power can trade into various keymons if properly positioned even against offense.
Take a look here https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ou-788245.
His other sets like setup DD or scale shot sets can be extremely dangerous since offense doesn't have as much longevity as bulkier teams do. Zama will often be forced to switch in and burn the defense boost even against subtect sets as seen here https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ou-791988?p2
And here are other replays showcasing setup variants prowess against offensive teams with a recent olt match and some past high ladder replays with teams still seen today
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ou-791993?p2
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2144073766?p2
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2142148502
There is also scarf Kyurem that is good against offense but lets not talk about that.
"If Kyurem goes, fat will rise"
Honestly, isn't fat already on the rise with Kyurem in it? Zapdos is back on business too. As CaptainKing06 has already alluded to, Kyurem itself benefits from these structures while those structures itself have answers to Kyurem even if only temporary. King provids valuable pivots and the rng birds weakning possible checks to Kyurem like statusing Zama. OLT matches brought a lot fat too. I actually think Kyurem holds back some actual fat punishers. You wanna know who obliterates these ZapKingLus? Ursaluna. Status immune, electric immune, bulky as heck and no one can swap against it except maybe Sinistcha. Yet Kyurem holds it back. Heck it can actually live a guts boosted facade in the snow too . There is also Hydrapple that benefits from a Kyurem ban and punishes fat too. Sun is still there to punish fat and the rest like Oger have already béen mention.
"Sets can be determined by the team structure":
Very true but only to a certain extend. If you see it with more offensive structures like HO, Veil or Grassy terrain, it is very likely to be some sort of setup variant and bulky team with no removal is obviously gonna be boots and all that. However, not all teams are set in stone. You see these AceKingLu fat structures with Kyurem on them that have been popping off in OLT? You can put multiple Kyurem sets there and not all of them have overlapping counterplay. They can use setup Kyurem as a win condition after wearing your team down with hazard, use specs Kyurem to destroy opposing fat, sub tect to wear down your team further. I have also seen other bulky balance builds having multiple Kyurem sets, sub tect just happen to be the most popular one right now. Beas scarf moon offense had a subtect Kyurem but a specs Kyurem wouldnt be completely out of the question for Beas team nor would a DD setup variant. And the DD variant can in itself have lots of variation. Lets use FFKs team here as an example https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...-offense-peaked-6-2000.3745171/#post-10149506. You could literally put shit like freeze dry over sub and tinker with the tera type to your liking it would still be a potent win condition, would beat physical answer like Dozo while answering offensive checks like say Zama for example with tera fairy.(Not saying the current set is bad though, just wanted to showcase how you can customize it)
Anyway I gave SupaGmoney a like to show my respect for his detailed post and I feel the best anti ban post. I still disagree though. Kyurem is a mon that cannot be walled long term even if it has plenty of short term answers. Normally that is a good thing since this is what a consistent wallbreaker is supposed to be. However the trouble lies when it can also double as a potent win-condition(sweeper). It puts huge pressure against the opponent and the Kyurem user will be the one in control unless you get outplayed at the early game. That means you will have to sacrifice(in my opinion) too many resources to deal with this guy as you will also have to deal with other mons that exudes pressure like Gambit, Zama or Bolt. The subtect isn't all that amazing to me tbh, I find its other sets and the sum of it all way more problematic but the subtect sets can still do something cancerous like fishing for paras behind a sub(which those ZapKingLu structures can easily do for Kyurem), which while not banworthy at all, is just uninteractive and does not feel competitive at all. If you are more concerned about mons like Gambit then I will say "FAIR". Mon does seem more broken then Kyu. Anyway I am gonna vote ban.
"Kyurem is a non-factor against offense"
I actually disagree with this. Sure the most popular subtect set might be a little mid against offensive teams but it can still trade against some key mons like roaring moon and force in Zama. I think the other sets are a lot more dangerous in general like scale shot mixed and DD and even Specs especially with snow support making it even bulkier and harder to take down. Ppl forget but offense has a bunch of mons that get scared out by Kyurem especially with bulky pivots like Slowking or even Alo giving a free entry point. Offensive mons like Great Tusk, Lando, Rillaboom,H-rott, Lu, Bolt, Nite all mons you commonly run on offensive or bulky offensive structures that dont like Kyurem's presence. Specs Kyurem, thanks to its bulk and power can trade into various keymons if properly positioned even against offense.
Take a look here https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ou-788245.
His other sets like setup DD or scale shot sets can be extremely dangerous since offense doesn't have as much longevity as bulkier teams do. Zama will often be forced to switch in and burn the defense boost even against subtect sets as seen here https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ou-791988?p2
And here are other replays showcasing setup variants prowess against offensive teams with a recent olt match and some past high ladder replays with teams still seen today
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ou-791993?p2
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2144073766?p2
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2142148502
There is also scarf Kyurem that is good against offense but lets not talk about that.
"If Kyurem goes, fat will rise"
Honestly, isn't fat already on the rise with Kyurem in it? Zapdos is back on business too. As CaptainKing06 has already alluded to, Kyurem itself benefits from these structures while those structures itself have answers to Kyurem even if only temporary. King provids valuable pivots and the rng birds weakning possible checks to Kyurem like statusing Zama. OLT matches brought a lot fat too. I actually think Kyurem holds back some actual fat punishers. You wanna know who obliterates these ZapKingLus? Ursaluna. Status immune, electric immune, bulky as heck and no one can swap against it except maybe Sinistcha. Yet Kyurem holds it back. Heck it can actually live a guts boosted facade in the snow too . There is also Hydrapple that benefits from a Kyurem ban and punishes fat too. Sun is still there to punish fat and the rest like Oger have already béen mention.
"Sets can be determined by the team structure":
Very true but only to a certain extend. If you see it with more offensive structures like HO, Veil or Grassy terrain, it is very likely to be some sort of setup variant and bulky team with no removal is obviously gonna be boots and all that. However, not all teams are set in stone. You see these AceKingLu fat structures with Kyurem on them that have been popping off in OLT? You can put multiple Kyurem sets there and not all of them have overlapping counterplay. They can use setup Kyurem as a win condition after wearing your team down with hazard, use specs Kyurem to destroy opposing fat, sub tect to wear down your team further. I have also seen other bulky balance builds having multiple Kyurem sets, sub tect just happen to be the most popular one right now. Beas scarf moon offense had a subtect Kyurem but a specs Kyurem wouldnt be completely out of the question for Beas team nor would a DD setup variant. And the DD variant can in itself have lots of variation. Lets use FFKs team here as an example https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...-offense-peaked-6-2000.3745171/#post-10149506. You could literally put shit like freeze dry over sub and tinker with the tera type to your liking it would still be a potent win condition, would beat physical answer like Dozo while answering offensive checks like say Zama for example with tera fairy.(Not saying the current set is bad though, just wanted to showcase how you can customize it)
Anyway I gave SupaGmoney a like to show my respect for his detailed post and I feel the best anti ban post. I still disagree though. Kyurem is a mon that cannot be walled long term even if it has plenty of short term answers. Normally that is a good thing since this is what a consistent wallbreaker is supposed to be. However the trouble lies when it can also double as a potent win-condition(sweeper). It puts huge pressure against the opponent and the Kyurem user will be the one in control unless you get outplayed at the early game. That means you will have to sacrifice(in my opinion) too many resources to deal with this guy as you will also have to deal with other mons that exudes pressure like Gambit, Zama or Bolt. The subtect isn't all that amazing to me tbh, I find its other sets and the sum of it all way more problematic but the subtect sets can still do something cancerous like fishing for paras behind a sub(which those ZapKingLu structures can easily do for Kyurem), which while not banworthy at all, is just uninteractive and does not feel competitive at all. If you are more concerned about mons like Gambit then I will say "FAIR". Mon does seem more broken then Kyu. Anyway I am gonna vote ban.
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I know this isn't really the topic to say this, but give UU a try. The excellently optimized offensive mons have almost entirely been hoarded by OU, leaving a power level much more reminiscent of Gen 8 OU. Plus, any tier where a first route bug is a major balance factor is a good tier.
On topic - I just want to say, for the top players who came out and really explained their thinking, thank you a ton. The best way to learn is to play tons of games, but when that's not an option due to time commitment, the next-best is to see what better players think and try to incorporate some of that into your own gameplay. As others have noted, there's a lot of players who are very confident in their opinions and are very happy to repeat them every page (and sometimes more than once a page) without actually being skilled, and the only way to make these threads useful for people who want to learn and improve is to drown out the yapping with quality posting.
Best post on this entire thread. Straight to the point while keeping things in the realm of reality.
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Every Kyurem set needs multiple checks. There is a Kyurem set that crushes every playstyle.
There's a reason why players are loading up on hard checks and counters for Kyurem, because even 2 isn't enough sometimes.
The hard checks Kyurem does have don't really overlap with a lot of good cores and need to be highly specialized, making them dead weight in a lot of other scenarios.
Balance and slower teams need multiple checks with multiple emergency/specialized Teras. Glowking would not run Tera Ice w/o Kyurem.
I focused on Sub/Tect because that's the set I believe essentially invalidates some of the most common Balance/BO cores.
HO doesn't care about Sub/Tect for obvious reasons, but it does care about a +1 mixed Dice Kyurem.
Moth needs to come in chip Kyu, get KO, then you need to revenge somehow or burn a Tera or BE.
The mon puts undue stress on the opposing player to keep these checks healthy, making for easy reads and becomes exploitable by simply putting mons on your team that weaken or KO these checks. It's often a case of just simple math like CaptainKing has illustrated.
If it consistently takes 1.5 to 2.5 mons to take down Kyurem it puts the opposing player into such a disadvantageous state that the mon is clearly unhealthy.
(As a side note, the checks/counters Kyurem does have can be pretty lackluster and don't really overlap with much other utility besides checking a single mon. Moltres for example checks a lot of the powerhouse mons running around, it does a lot of good things in a wide variety of situations. Think about Kyurem's dedicated answers, and what they do, or specifically don't do vs the rest of the meta. I don't care enough to flush this point out, just a passing thought.)
Each Kyurem set is amazing- some of these sets have had answers for months but even so, these answers are in the form of multiple dedicated hard checks, and can still just outright lose or put a team in a losing position even after the trade.
Every banned/suspected mon so far has had a combination of two or more of the following:
- Needs multiple mons to consistently KO
- Requires burning a Tera to check
- Requires a highly specialized Tera to counter
- Practically impossible to stop once it gets set up
- Bulky enough to survive most forms of priority
- A set with the power to have almost no safe switch ins (Band/Specs)
- Has multiple sets and/or Tera types that create an enormous strain on team building
- A mixed attacker that can blow past both special and physical walls
- Requires dedicated answers that don't do much else- low tier or almost unviable mons. (Probopass)
We're trying to get rid of mons like this. It's been shown this wacky meta of ours gets slightly or significantly better without mons that can be described by these above points.
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This thread has gotten weird. SV as a whole has been a strange ride. This entire gen has felt like dating someone who always keeps their phone face down- like you love the game but something is off. Without a doubt, I think we went seriously wrong somewhere along the way. The vibes are forsure bad. I took almost a year off for a reason.
That said, even if we're on totally separate sides of an argument we are still dealing with passionate people who love this game and want to see it improved- we have more in common than not. I'd rather hang out and argue with an intense DNB person who thinks Tera is the best thing to happen to mons and Kyurem is C+ tier than someone who doesn't care about trying to get to the root of wtf happened with SV, how we can improve and grow, and if we can save this relationship before it's too late.
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Counterpoint: Oftentimes you still lose your knock off user to it because it is just that strong even if it has no item. Also physical kyurem while it hates losing dice, it can easily dd while you go for knock and then gamble with the multi hit moves, and because kyurem would still have the chance to drop your knock user or whatever comes in if it high rolls, that is more rng that no one wants to be on the opposing end, both player and opponent, and if it is mixed boots kyurem, it being knocked is a big whoop as it just clicks dd the turn it gets knocked and gets kills on whatever like always.
I think the knock weakness is overstated, because Kyurem is still a very hard if not impossible feeling pokemon to safely switch into. This is not a healthy dynamic at all, and frankly scouting with knock off can be hard punished depending on the set and can cause issues if the opposing kyurem carries dragon dance and typically kyurem takes it because unlike darkrai who has an underwhelming base 70 hp kyurem has a whopping 130 hp to eat those knocks even after hazards
Like it doesn’t necessarily like being knocked all, but if it is carrying dragon dance it is not dead weight and can still spiral out of control. And what exactly switches in? Barely anything that doesn’t give it free setup or a free scale shot or attack. I think the reward for setting up or positioning kyurem is too high and it creates some very stupid dynamics.
Kyurem is unhealthy due to this factor and others like freeze and special defense drops from earth power and honestly busted because you just cannot switch feasibly into it safely because trying to switch in gives it a free dragon dance, free sub or an attack. It is just too hard to switch around it creates kinda creates unhealthy dynamics that are frankly busted even more so than the gambit 50/50 that is really more of a not 50/50 scenario that everyone knows (go watch ausma’s vid on that) these dynamics are not something that I believe are good for the metagame to be honest.
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I agree with most of blunder's point on council participation; my council needs to post more. There is no exception to that and no excuses to be made. We will be better on this front in the future, especially with the implementation of the qualified thread (and worry not for the general thread: I will keep a close eye on both).
Our public posting is better than it was last generation when we had radio silence for some stretches, but we can still do better. I am not really in the business of excuses -- I could make a bunch with how spread thin things can be, but in the end we need to be in the results business to give the best product and info to our community and playerbase. We do this for all of the enjoyment of the playerbase and owe you guys communication. That is what matters at the end of the day.
I also agree that more tournament players and high-achieving ladder players should participate in discussions and our suspect process. I have high hopes that the new qualified thread will be welcoming to this demographic as this (and other past suspect) thread(s) has been dreadful for a lot of people.
I do want to point out a few things though:
You can argue for or against the specific outcomes for sure, but the process has been sound, consistent, and transparent ever since the mistake of quickbanning Volcarona in 2023 (and I will be the first to admit that was an error). I will happily point to public justification and proof of procedural consistency for any decision in this window. And seeing as playerbase satisfaction / view on competitiveness has followed a trend-line of going down when new releases come out and then gradually up the more distanced (see: after quickbans and initial suspects) we get, the decisions clearly have some degree of effectiveness. To top it off, I observe two things: a lot of people are passionately debating on both sides here, so clearly a discussion and vote is appropriate to let the playerbase determine what is best + a lot of people seem perfectly content with the tier now as they want no more bans, which means that the decisions that preceeded this and led us here must have worked to some degree.
I edited out a bad example. That’s my fault. Point is blunder is right and we need a better effort
Our public posting is better than it was last generation when we had radio silence for some stretches, but we can still do better. I am not really in the business of excuses -- I could make a bunch with how spread thin things can be, but in the end we need to be in the results business to give the best product and info to our community and playerbase. We do this for all of the enjoyment of the playerbase and owe you guys communication. That is what matters at the end of the day.
I also agree that more tournament players and high-achieving ladder players should participate in discussions and our suspect process. I have high hopes that the new qualified thread will be welcoming to this demographic as this (and other past suspect) thread(s) has been dreadful for a lot of people.
I do want to point out a few things though:
We have made more tiering decisions this generation already than the entirety of last generation and most other full generations. Generation 9 has kept us busy.
You can argue for or against the specific outcomes for sure, but the process has been sound, consistent, and transparent ever since the mistake of quickbanning Volcarona in 2023 (and I will be the first to admit that was an error). I will happily point to public justification and proof of procedural consistency for any decision in this window. And seeing as playerbase satisfaction / view on competitiveness has followed a trend-line of going down when new releases come out and then gradually up the more distanced (see: after quickbans and initial suspects) we get, the decisions clearly have some degree of effectiveness. To top it off, I observe two things: a lot of people are passionately debating on both sides here, so clearly a discussion and vote is appropriate to let the playerbase determine what is best + a lot of people seem perfectly content with the tier now as they want no more bans, which means that the decisions that preceeded this and led us here must have worked to some degree.
I edited out a bad example. That’s my fault. Point is blunder is right and we need a better effort
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i literally never said they werent distinct, just that they're not as distinct as raging bolt and ogerpon-wellspring, two mons with extremely different stat spreads, movepools, roles, and matchups. U also dont believe this, ur just making a point i get it, but still ... tera fairy was actually one of the more generous examples as they actually might slot tblast instead of gambit's bread and butter moveset, and it still doesnt rly change counterplay such that it matches the difference between raging bolt and ogerpon-wellspring (e.g. one beats moltres, the other beats teraless zama/tusk... it just narrows existing counterplay to base gambit).
None of what u have said rly 'PROVES' anything, how is me disagreeing with u on this one issue supposed to demonstrate that suspect tests should be scrapped for the rest of gen???
And how do we even define or measure 'tiering skill'? everyone has a different vision for what the best way to 'fix' ou is, and maybe some dont even think it needs fixing... who r u to say that urs is right? Our best and most reasonable measure would be player skill, since the most successful tour players would likely be players with the most metagame knowledge. Tiering philosophy is a matter of opinion and not understanding, and so it cant and shouldnt be criteria for someone to have the 'right' approach to handling metagame issues.
theres no point in rly continuing this as the council would never undertake this course of action (prolly wouldnt even be allowed by admins), and this would be more suited to the metagame thread anyway
Shaymin Sky, the problem with Pokemon is not that there are too many pokemon. putting on a blindfold and throwing random ban darts at pokemon that do not put broken levels of work into the game is not a solution. Look at the game Srn posted highlighting in his view brokenness of Kingambit and tell me Subtect Kyurem performed at a broken level in that game.
My question to the others of this thread is how much adaption is too much and where is the line. To me changing a Tera type or using a pokemon that offers many good qualities such as Gholdengo Glowking Tinkaton Corv Moltres etc is not unreasonable. No team will be able to counter every set on every single Mon and that is an unreasonable expectation to have especially while Tera especially tera blast are a factor. This metagame is constantly changing and trends keep moving to respond to other trends due to Tera and if you have an issue with that then ban all the mons until we retvrn to dlc1 is not the answer
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"Look at the game Srn posted highlighting in his view brokenness of Kingambit and tell me Subtect Kyurem performed at a broken level in that game."
my post literally said in the beginning lines that kyurem isnt broken on an individual basis, that is has counterplay, its not running the tier, and further i mention multiple times later in my post that nothing in the tier is broken on their own but rather its the impact all of the unique offensive options across the entire tier that is putting strain on the tier. How is your take from my post? I made a post that says no individual pokemon is broken, but you're claiming that I think/said kyurem or kingambit is broken. Can you answer this?
I'll ask the important question: what next, if what you say is true? Are we to forge on as is, and actually adapt as others already have to the various meta threats? Are we to enact a nuclear bomb's worth of bans all at once for the sake of OU? Do we just ban the top 3 in usage weekly and repeat until the meta stabilizes around what you or others deem a healthy meta?
You're putting a big question out there. What's your answer?
We don’t ban or suspect the most used pokemon unless they cross the exact line of unhealthy or broken, kyurem in my eyes has crossed both the unhealthy and the broken line by a good margin.
Gambit might not be the healthiest thing in the world, but it holds the meta together and isn’t anywhere near unmanageable mainly because of the overeliance on setup + sucker making these 50/50s manipulatable into the opposing player’s favor.
Elaborating on my previous point, there is no such thing with Kyurem in my experience when using and playing against it since even if you know what it will do, it can still set itself up to either sweep the entire game or take out a bunch of your mons if the setup opportunity is there. Kyurem reminds me of ursaluna bloodmoon in that way, where there isn’t really switch ins except it can actually outspeed your team and nuke it depending on the set. Just like Kyurem it set up and usually takes out more than one mon with it. Unlike something like Darkrai or even gliscor there is no overlapping answer for the Kyurem sets. Sure you can try to remove its item, but in the case of it packing set up you may still lose a couple of mons if Kyurem high rolls enough multihit moves or scores some lucky status effects or special defense drop. These dynamics with the rng thrown in with the fact that it feels impossible to switch around makes it a presence that I hope leaves OU because I think it is a culprit for restricting a lot of the builder in the tier since every team needs some answer and even then, oftentimes you have to sack a mon or multiple to remove it which is not healthy at all in my opinion.
"Are we to forge on as is, and actually adapt as others already have to the various meta threats?"
nobody's team last longer than a few weeks max, the meta shifts week to week, this statement just isn't true. People 'adapt' and then their teams become outdated quickly, and then have to 'adapt' to the next pokemon of the week by building a completely new team that wont last either. You can call that adapting, but I can also call that a bad state for a tier to be in. No metagame should flip flop so frequently and so drastically rendering so many hours useless.
The solution I have said already before, ban the Pokemon contributing to the problem of there being 50-60 unique offensive options in the tier. Ban Pokemon to cut down the total amount of unique offensive options down so that the tier isn't strained to the degree it is now.
Shaymin Sky, personally I thought Gouging Fire was extremely broken and not just one of the high-variance Tera abusers contributing to threat saturation. Its Booster Energy sets were insane, and counterplay was close to non-existent.
I agree that we need more tiering action, but I believe you undersold just how ridiculous of a mon Gouging Fire was. It was clearly in a class of its own like Ursaluna-Bloodmoon was.
Kyurem is not at Gouging Fire's level, but it is still quite limiting in the builder, to the point I believe getting rid of it to free up teambuilding resources might be the best play to limit the volatility of SV OU.
I also do see people's points that Gliscor and Kingambit consistently put in more work than Kyurem does, so I can see why others believe it isn't the biggest issue and that there may be better targets.
I agree that we need more tiering action, but I believe you undersold just how ridiculous of a mon Gouging Fire was. It was clearly in a class of its own like Ursaluna-Bloodmoon was.
Kyurem is not at Gouging Fire's level, but it is still quite limiting in the builder, to the point I believe getting rid of it to free up teambuilding resources might be the best play to limit the volatility of SV OU.
I also do see people's points that Gliscor and Kingambit consistently put in more work than Kyurem does, so I can see why others believe it isn't the biggest issue and that there may be better targets.
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I feel like this is exaggerating because I don't think we've even done multiple bans in one since DLC1 (several of which were rebanning prior Ubers or expected problems like Regieleki), and with few exceptions (to not speak in absolutes, though I can only think of Flutter and Bundle which lol), most of the suspect subjects, never mind banned ones, have not actually been "Top 3" in Usage, I imagine several struggled for Top 5.
I don't see why what next can't simply be the approach we've already been taking: Watch, Survey, Test over a cycle of weeks. If the Meta has been improving on average as a result of Suspect removals, whatever the pace, then what reason is there not to continue that approach?
I want to add onto this, the Knock Off weakness is only as notable for Kyurem as the positioning in which it happens. Odds are high you're not going to consistently have something in front of it that can Knock Off on it or set you up to, and the Item-loss benefit isn't necessarily so significant that it can be your counter play plan for Kyurem because several sets aren't necessarily as bothered by it when they're getting a less-threatening turn out of it (for example, Boots sets care a lot less about losing their boots if they get the turn to throw an attack before leaving to take Hazard damage later).
Looking at the Viability rankings, the A-Rankings and up include 10 KO users (Tusk, Gliscor, IV, the Ogerpons, Hamurott, Deo-S, Roaring Moon, Iron Treads, and Tinkaton), virtually none of which can defensively stomach a Kyurem hit well enough to be worth it (8/10 of them get smoked by Freeze Dry, 6/10 for Ice STAB in general due to weakness or neutral w/ low bulk considering Ice is the "safe" attack type), and only maybe 4 of which being ones Kyurem would risk coming into without a Pivot/Safe Switch (Glis, the Ogers, and Hamurott). What I'm poking at here is hitting Kyurem with a Knock Off takes very specific positioning just to get the SHOT at it (for example, Gliscor needs Tera intact or to hope Kyurem doesn't go for Sub/Ice STAB predicting a scare out).
This isn't really a standout weakness for Kyurem, because as much value as it derives from its item (Reward for removal), there is a MASSIVE threat to guessing wrong on a turn sequence where you try to get rid of it (Risk of Removal), especially considering Knock Off is frequently viewed as one of the surest ways to force progress as a way to threaten out something blocked or punish a check making its entry, but in Kyurem's case that may not be a fair exchange for it hitting the field without a huge dent. Knock Off scouted and told you it was a Boots Attacker (vs Choice Specs for example), hope it wasn't a DD set that used them to survive for its set up turn instead of going in and out.
Since I am tagged here i will respond to this. First of all I do not even know what 'instability and volatility' means, did you mean to say that it is a diverse metagame with many options?
You raise RU being different from OU saying it's better, but how so? no elaboration just calling people out for being insane if they disagree with you, I think you failed the #1 rule of debate.
'Literally teams I ripped from OLT ladder and playoffs just a few weeks ago are now completely outdated', thats because OLT is cyclical and props up the most spammable teams to the top since everyone needs the consistency and ease of use of those ladder teams. However, OLT playoff teams are different. BO1 and BO3 you are counting on versatility and covering mu's, and not to mention around half of all the winning OLT playoff teams are mine and have some been revamped versions of old teams, you can count on that. Further, I used a team that is almost a whole year old made in last OST era just last week in scl, facing off against a team that should be made around last WCOP era, and you are here telling me teams get obsoleted in a week? This just proves that good teambuilding withstands the test of time. Also if you havent noticed, the 'constant week to week meta shifts' have been caused by hmmmm oh yea, the banning of mons! Now you're getting it.
To address the following points:
1. Yes the majority of players making teams will have it be trash in 7-14 days regardless because the team was trash to begin with. 'The majority' implies the average player, and if the average player is making timeless masterpieces on first draft there would be no lordheat dominance.
2. Difficult to gauge one's progress in the tier? What does this even mean? You mean the meta shifts and adapts to the new flavor of the week aka most spammable and easiest to win sets/styles? This is how metagames work, you can look to any game, any system, any competition ever and attribute this 'change' to progress. This is how life works.
So, not only have you not proven anything beyond a shadow of doubt, you have in fact not even eclipsed an iota of doubt.
'The issue is not because of any individual Pokemon but a combination of Pokemon contributing to an overall problem. The overall problem to SV OU is there being too much offensive high variance Tera abusers'..... You mean to tell me the combination of 6 mons each with various sets and each with a viable multitude of tera options having all their permutations stacked atop one another gives this tier high variance? Yes my beloved child, you are just now understanding the nature of SV as the most unique and comprehensive tier there ever was.
You then raise the 'issue' of so many unique options being in the tier with their variety of tera choices like it's a bad thing. Hate to break it to you, but either most tera options have already been explored and we are getting more and more used to hedging against a ground moth, flying moon, fire gambit, or people are still exploring niche tech options. The metagame will not stop because this is the nature of tera, this is the nature of SV.
Seems like you want to narrow our options and reduce the diverse pool of mons because tera isn't going anywhere. Why would u wanna reduce the variety of the tier just because you yourself cannot predict opponent techs or make a team that lasts 2 weeks? I remember you as the person who made the paraspam team with 6 paralysis users, so that basically tells me everything I need to know -- you just want to have low effort and easy wins. People like you should not undermine the dedication of others who actually enjoy the game and want to win via skill just because you lack it and want to get freebies the easy way by dumbing down the metagame. If you can't handle tera and don't want to contend with a myriad options in the tier, I implore you to go play SS where there is no tera and you know at preview the weavile is gonna be boots and landorus is gonna rock up.
'How do we fix the issue' paragraph reads like you take issue with tera as a whole because it is the engine that makes possible all this variety, but that ship has sailed. We will not let you secret tera haters to ban more and more mons to reduce variety because tera as a concept strikes fear into your hearts. This 'state of volatility' is simply the ebb and flow natural to any metagame in any competition, as change is the only constant no matter how much you denounce it.
'For one would really like to have any team last for more than 10 days' may be a construct of your imagination because not only are people winning with teams from a week ago, a month ago, a metagame ago, but I just showed you can win with a team from a whole year ago last week in SCL. Perhaps it's time to step back and think if your own narrow perspective has been mistaken for fact? A little introspection oughta sober one up to reality.
You are pro TB ban but 'it will never happen'? Pessimistic stance, I fear, as anything can happen with enough support and willpower behind it. Don't doubt yourself so much, maybe join me in making the argument next suspect cycle and we can achieve it together.
'But what about fat? Dude seriously. Be for real please LOL. We have 50+ unique offensive options, there is literally LITERALLY no universe. No universe at all. Where somehow glowking and friends will perpetually wall the tier. This is like so absurd on so many levels. Even if this happens in theory, we just ban the Pokemon that's causing this issue. To which then these people will say "council never bans defensive mons its impossible" but then as much as they bring up glowking zap ting lu in their fake 3 month metagame, they somehow forget about the gliscor ban who was a defensive use case mon in a lot of teams and esp on stall lol. If you're argument hinges on "stall will be too good" (which has never happened besides in oras where they literally banned msableye), and exaggerating the results of a 3 months metagame, then it's probably not a good argument'
--- This is quite ignorant as kyurem ban would lead to a potential gliscor ban, after which we would certainly go back to the so called '3 month long fake metagame'. Using your argument that the meta is always so volatile and ever changing (every 7-14 days you say?), why was that meta so stagnant for the entirety of 3 months? Was it perhaps the core of zapkinglu and fat boots being so insurmountable that no amount of progress and metagaming could overcome and that style became the default best and easiest style to use? Wouldnt that make a tier in which gking and friends walling the tier a reality which overcomes even the 'volatility' that you yourself presented contradicting your own argument?
So now what?
Ahh, we finally unveil your real stance. You want to get rid of tera to reduce metagame variety so you can go back to spamming twave without having to contend with real minds and real players. Not gonna happen kiddo, don't disguise this thinly veiled hatred for tera and variety under the pretense that you think the metagame needs less variety through the banning of more offensive options, that ship has sailed long ago.
So you yourself prefaced the entire post with the argument that kyurem is not individually broken, then argued the whole way about how you just want to reduce metagame variety because of something you personally cannot handle (change, variety etc), and now you are saying everyone else doesn't know the tier. Great argument guy, it seems the tier's actual problem to you is its difficulty level, might I direct you to SSOU or perhaps call of duty?
Enjoy
My take is, then that is not a reason to ban a Mon. Again, if you disagree with the meta as a whole the solution is not to close your eyes and throw a ban dart at a random Mon that you yourself say is not broken. Perhaps we could use a method such as eenie meenie minie moe? The fact that the tier has a lot of options is not a problem.
I’m gonna have to stop you right here. Dude please keep it civil, the jab at the end was unnecessary and hurts your argument because it makes you come mean spirited and rude. I may not agree with you but I at least try to be civil with you because I know you get kinda heated when you get in these sort of debates/arguments.
Also you know very well throwing shade at people and getting frustrated with them because they don’t agree results in you getting into hot water, so stop before you go too far and get your account muted or banned because you know very well this will happen if you keep being rude and going for low blows like this.
Just please chill out and be civil when you explain why you disagree. The extra jabs out of frustration aren’t needed. No one wants another gouging fire scenario where you got yourself muted because you weren’t being civil and were being rude.
Also by the way SS OU is a Fantastic tier in my opinion that deserves more respect, so you throwing shade at SS OU is lame for those of us that enjoy it.
Can y’all stop trying to mini-mod? If there’s an issue report it and a mod will handle it. CTC has been on this site for a long time and has dealt with a lot of users, so he’s not going to listen to the thousandth random user telling him to “behave”. If there’s a real problem, report it. There’s been plenty of ad hominem attacks from both sides and neither are innocent of this (a lot like the Gouging Fire thread to be honest). The person he’s replying to literally said this:
Don’t act like CTC is the main problem with this thread….
bro. come on. scroll back up and actually read this:
there are too many what-ifs that have to happen for your doomsday scenario (which isn't even bad lmao) to come true. even in the scenario where gliscor becomes broken again, why are you acting like a ban will happen immediately? no way in the blue blazes will the council turn around after another two weeks and say "all right, third suspect time", especially after this one has attracted this much chaos and disarray. i reckon it'll take at least a couple months for the post-kyu meta to settle down enough for a survey. who knows what could happen in that timeframe? maybe another ice-type steps up to fill the power vacuum. maybe some water-type kyurem was pressuring gets real good and becomes a new offensive gliscor check. maybe something starts running tb ice and it's way better than anyone expected it to be and that becomes a big new thing. maybe some new hidden tech gets discovered that blasts through those oh-so-scary fat boots structures, like the mysterious and esoteric technique of carrying knock off on your team at all. maybe the meta just naturally evolves past zap-king-lu like it didn't have time to do because dlc1 was shorter than the average mcdonald's promotion. oh, don't like that i'm dealing in maybes and hypotheticals? cool, then maybe you should stop doing that. be better
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I don't like mini modding at all really, but I just didn't want things to spiral anymore than they have already so I was just trying to calm the atmosphere a bit and try and keep things from spiraling further. CTC isn't the main problem but he's fueling the fire when he gets heated and starts throwing shade at others so everyone please do not do that. CTC I know you have dealt with many users, but the disrespect is fueling the fire, so try to be civil. The OU council specifically said to keep it civil, so we must abide by that, and I know many others would appreciate if we kept it civil and on topic, and not throwing shade at others for disagreeing. I gave CTC respect in the end despite disagreeing, so I hope he gives shaymin sky the same respect, as I know both of you are skilled players, so please mind your manners and CTC, the shade isn't cool, and shaymin sky I get your frustration but don't throw shade back at CTC. This thread is already bad enough so neither of you should fuel this fire.
I just don't want things to escalate anymore because I just wanted to say my piece on kyurem and my thoughts as they unfolded and sharing those thoughts with others and civilly sharing why I agree or disagree, not deal with all this mess truthfully.
I'm honestly gonna just let this all play out because i feel like I have said everything I wanted to say about Kyurem at this point. Hope things calm down because wow, this thread has gotten out of hand. Just everyone, please be respectful because if you are it will make this thread less insufferable for the council to deal with
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I find it interesting that those discussing Gliscor and ZapKingLu seem to leave out mentioning 
, which will get better with a Kyurem ban, and will likely rise up to check these fat styles.
In a few ways, Ogerpon-Wellspring is better at checking Gliscor than Kyurem. It can carry Encore to exploit SD Gliscor, whereas Kyurem loses to Tera'd SD Scor. It's also not weak to rocks, which are leveraged by most of the fatter teams that Kyurem is meant to check.
Overall, I don't see Kyurem as the indispensable fatcheck that it's often made out to be.
, which will get better with a Kyurem ban, and will likely rise up to check these fat styles. In a few ways, Ogerpon-Wellspring is better at checking Gliscor than Kyurem. It can carry Encore to exploit SD Gliscor, whereas Kyurem loses to Tera'd SD Scor. It's also not weak to rocks, which are leveraged by most of the fatter teams that Kyurem is meant to check.
Overall, I don't see Kyurem as the indispensable fatcheck that it's often made out to be.
actual mod here from ou room! there is a pretty big difference between saying "people saying this is absurd" as opposed to specifically calling someone out/discrediting someone by saying "they only spam para and want easy wins and don't have the skill to play the tier.
hope this helps, if you have any more confusion on how policy around this stuff works feel free to dm a forum mod or ou staff about what types of behavior aren't conducive to good discussion.
Anyways 25 likes and I drop the 1 hour long CTC response video
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Hey i know i swore i wasn't gonna post again, but after seeing the arguments from prominent players such as finch, and my homies lax, blunder, captainking06 and ctc, i finally saw an improvement in the quality of the thread, thanks to all these guys, but now im starting to realise how big this suspect can be for the tier, and i would like to address some things.
First and foremost, Finch, blunder, y'all absolutely right, we need more posts from council members, Lily, ur one of my favorite players and honestly ur my third favorite person on this site right behind crying and vert, y'all know i love Lily, ive had rarely any interactions with Lily but when i did, theyre always so nice and respectful, i feel like everybody should be like them, but i need to say something so please try to listen, you cannot agree to join a council with such a responsibility to tier a metagame that literal tens of thousands of people play just because you think it would be too stressful, you sometimes give off the vibe that you dont take some things seriously, whether its reasonable criticism or not, whether it seems futile or not, and whether it feels like people just dont see your perspective because theyre outright ignorant, you NEED to start taking it more seriously, making it a PRIORITY, and you NEED to be EXTREMELY mentally strong(this should be a pre-requisite for joining any tiering council imo so be careful what you agree to sign up for) when it comes to people coming at your arguments, you AGREED to join the council for a reason, it was your consent, you have a voice that is respected, you need to start using it, and engaging more with the players in the threads, and this goes for all councilmen, Finch, xavgb and Ausma feel like the only two players on the council, and if im being honest if the reason that the rest of you on the council don't post is the reason Lily stated, i just outright think you should step down and allow someone who is willing to put in the effort to properly steer this tier in the right direction. And if you AGREED to join the ou council, then don't be thin skinned, GET in the threads and make posts, start NOW, you being busy is ZERO excuse as finch is actively working through his BUSY schedule to make posts and put in a strong effort to work on the tier and smogon in general tbh, and its starting to piss me off that his hard work sometimes go un-noticed, sorry to put other council members on blast like this but my sentiment for blunder's post goes deeper than just a suspect test, TL;DR, another apology to Lily here for my tone the point im tryna make is dont agree/consent to do voluntary work for something this important and then not take it super seriously thats just outright lame. Yes i 100% agree we need a separate thread for the more qualified players but that doesnt mean you shouldn't atleast make an attempt to try to educate the lesser experienced players you're tiering for them too after all. And this is exactly why when my homie ima asked if i was interested in being on council awhile back i flat out said no, felt like i couldnt put in as much effort as finch, yes im interested obviously, but its a big commitment, so i put my own personal feelings aside and turned it down, if ur gonna commit u should go all the way.
This next paragraph is a response to shaymin sky/slainey, imma try to make this as short as possible because this is not the place to discuss high variance where anything can win, and a constantly fresh metagame is extremely healthy for any metagame, being able to flip matchups is also extremely healthy because during the past gens, impossible mus on preview, was an incredibly lame aspect of competitive mons, always hated it, everybody should have a fair chance in any matchup, and everyone should be ACTIVE in a metagame as a player AND a teambuilder if theyre gonna play it at a competent level, so if anything, an ever changing metagame is healthy in my eyes.
Now lets get back to Kyurem, i already listed very strong arguments for both sides, ban and dnb, but the thread still feels divided, first thing's first, this is my definition of broken checks broken: When an broken/unhealthy mon checks another broken/unhealthy mon. BOTH parties have to be broken for this to apply.
That being said, i still somewhat have a strong dnb sentiment for kyurem given the unique premise at hand here, say it like you want to, without Tera blast, I think volcarona is completely fine and healthy(i will argue with people who try to argue against this in the eventual retest, this is not the place). This will be important for what im about to say so keep this volcarona paragraph in mind.
The less offensive options we have to break these strong defensive mons/cores, which leads to centralization to the remaining offensive mons/cores, gen 9 has been the gen with the most offense thus far, but we just cannot ignore that its been the gen with the most defense as well, just take a look at the amount of defensive(some can even be offensive) mons this gen has: gliscor, ting lu, clodsire, skeledirge, toxapex, alomomola, skarmory, corviknight, garganacl, dondozo, zapdos, glowking, gweezing, moltres, amoonguss, blissey, clefable, now at the start, we had enough offensive options to handle all these, but when you eliminate nearly all the prominent breakers, we have: ogerpon, raging bolt, kingambit, roaring moon, kyurem, gholdengo, darkrai, Primarina.
And Yes, i know there are niche breakers that can be explored, but we cant possibly not account for the fact that nobody wants to innovate due to some of these breakers being banned, and less options to break these defensive cores, which directly leads to centralization on these remaining COMMON mons, which honestly, theres a survey every 2 weeks, fast tiering action, its gonna hit a point where we end up in a metagame of few offensive options, and the world of defensive options and people will call it balanced in a tera metagame, i believe that all playstyles should be thriving, balance or Fat should NEVER be on top, and this lead me to realizing that the problem with this tier might be the faulty tiering policy, where you cant ban moves to save pokemon, which would be fair if game freak didnt introduce like 50 new broken moves each gen, for example, this tier would be solved if we had:
Magearna without stored power, archaludon without electro shot, palafin without jet punch, volcarona without TERA BLAST, annihilape without rage fist etc.
Now ik i probably shouldnt bring this up but you CANNOT ignore that testing kyurem in the tier with these, and testing kyurem in the tier without these are two completely different things, they are completely healthy mons without these insane moves, and they would be enough for kyurem to remain in the tier, remember, its not broken checks broken if these mons are healthy, and they are healthy without these moves, so these solid and healthy answers would be viable options to check kyurem, and remove the fact that each set has different counters, volcarona covers the subtect set and any set that isnt scale shot, magearna with av covers all sets barring terablast(another broken move) cheese which is easy to revenge, av arch, great sponge to its hits, not a counter but a check, arch without eshot also restores usage to rain by replacing eshot with thunder which is a net positive because only eshot breaks it, ape also takes it on and acts as a unique spinblocker, and a unique lead, gear is a staple on so many unique comps too, palafin with cb acts as a check to kyu and alot of stuff, note im listing the many many positives of these being in the tier without their broken move, but also im listing how these would derain kyurem's impact on the tier massively.
A metagame where arch rain(without eshot) has good usage, other gear comps, loads of volcarona comps, and limited kyu usage, where all playstyles flourish cuz lets be honest fat and balance love gear and they love volc too, is a net positive for the tier as all playstyles have abundant resources which prevents centralization, and gives a fair chance for all styles to win rather than over centralizing with just offense to win every game or just balance to win every game when all the offense gets banned. Every playstyle should be on an even playing field.
The main point im trying to make is, we are assessing kyurem in a flawed metagame because of the many options getting banned due to their broken moves, multiple mons have to be broken with the move for it to go? why? thats is so obviously bad as electro shot wouldnt be broken on a lv1 rattata, therefore its not the move, im pretty sure last respects is fine on like half the shit mons we have available right now(and of course it breaks houndstone it has sand rush and stab LR) , it wouldnt break something like hippo or skarmory, and this statement alone nullifies the entire argument that "it needs to be broken on multiple pokemon to get banned".
Im just pointing out the DIFFERENCE between testing kyurem in a metagame where these are allowed, and testing kyurem in a metagame where theyre not, its not broken checks broken, the broken moves are what breaks them, the mons arent broken themselves, hypothetically, thats like saying , oh okay litten, gholdengo and pult gets astral barrage lets ban those two instead cuz its not broken on litten in LC, now theyre gone, oop zama is broken now, yea no shit, you banned its healthy answers because a broken move broke them, the mons themselves arent broken its the move, and we need to start acknowledging this, because it seems like every new gen, game freak released insane moves that somehow top the previous one.
Which now brings me to my main point which has to do with this suspect, i was pushing for a ban on terablast first as there are multiple users that are broken with the move, i.e. volcarona, gambit, eleki. If we had volcarona in the tier, the sentiment for kyurem would NEVER be this strong in the first place, it does not feel fair, and the sentiment for a terablast ban was the strongest, but then theres videos on youtube like the pinkacross one with strong influence on the active smogon playerbase, which directly shifted the sentiment from tera blast to kyurem, RESULTING in a sentimental shift from terablast to kyurem, and i have a solution for this, in the future , just hand out 1 infraction point for everyone in the thread that tries to persuade or encourage people to vote for something, and hand out TWO for youtubers with >10000 subscribers that try to make a video persuading the viewers. Finch i apologise for the rant but the persuasion feels unfair, everyone should just state their reasoning and opinion without persuasion, that pinkacross video is just flat out persuasive, let it be a fair ground, because if we wouldve gone for tera blast first, and we wouldve had volcarona, i bet there would be a stronger dnb sentiment for kyurem than there is now, and dont say we can retest kyurem in the future, because it would be too late by the time that happens and we would be tiering a past gen, do it now while the gen is still here, we should be voting under the consensus that volcarona will be back and healthy, because itd be a healthy presence that curbs special threats from snowballing, like kyurem, darkrai, without the unhealthy aspect, aka the free coverage for every typing, tera is part of the issue here, but its just terablast, so without that, we would have not only a viable spinner in eleki, but a fully healthy mon like volcarona which hard stops all kyurem sets except shit specs draco, or scale shot dice WITH the right tera, and those two sets are curbed easily by other healthy mons, i dont see it as moving backwards as some have stated, its more fixing past mistakes like testing volc before assessing the over centralizing move terablast, and efficiently improving the metagame by doing it right the second time.
With both volcarona and kyurem in the tier we are one step closer to a balance, we should focus on regaining some offensive options to combat the very high level of defensive options without these broken moves(especially terablast as ausma stated) causing these offensive options to snowball, finch, even ausma said it herself word for word in stallcord: "magearna without stored power would actually solve this tier id be super down" , so you know its not just me.
And if we dont start looking into this, and acting fast, rather than just mindlessly banning offensive mons, we will never arrive at the so called "ideal metagame" until there are almost no offensive options and the world of defensive options, because lets face it, theres a survey every 1-2 weeks, it should be every 2-3 months, give people time to adapt and think, the only 3 month delay between surveys happened after volcarona got banned, then it was back to every 2 weeks. I would rather have a metagame where every style has high variance and viability, rather than a metagame where fat balance rules all, arch with rain(without eshot), gear with BO/Stall/rain/balance(without stored) ape with BO/HO(without rage fist) , volc with all styles(without terablast), etc, no style is snowballing, because every style has abundant options without these broken moves, given all the premises, kyurem was never broken to begin with, just collateral to the actual issue at hand, ill just outright say it, we should NOT have tested it this early without RE ASSESSING the situation at hand and the actual problem with the tier and why everybody isnt happy with it rn. I will be making a thread or a post in policy review i know theres gonna be alot of people that will support this, we need to change this policy immediately, the collateral is starting to show and its negatively affecting the tier, and people in this thread wonder why theres such a strong dnb sentiment.
Thats about all i wanted to address, and if people really dont see eye to eye with me on this stuff and want to discuss 1v1 rather than responding here, my discord tag is stormzone , or Storm Zone#0778 , feel free to message me there if you took anything personally , id love to talk with you about it and get on the same page.
Thank you all for reading if you got this far into the post really means alot.
First and foremost, Finch, blunder, y'all absolutely right, we need more posts from council members, Lily, ur one of my favorite players and honestly ur my third favorite person on this site right behind crying and vert, y'all know i love Lily, ive had rarely any interactions with Lily but when i did, theyre always so nice and respectful, i feel like everybody should be like them, but i need to say something so please try to listen, you cannot agree to join a council with such a responsibility to tier a metagame that literal tens of thousands of people play just because you think it would be too stressful, you sometimes give off the vibe that you dont take some things seriously, whether its reasonable criticism or not, whether it seems futile or not, and whether it feels like people just dont see your perspective because theyre outright ignorant, you NEED to start taking it more seriously, making it a PRIORITY, and you NEED to be EXTREMELY mentally strong(this should be a pre-requisite for joining any tiering council imo so be careful what you agree to sign up for) when it comes to people coming at your arguments, you AGREED to join the council for a reason, it was your consent, you have a voice that is respected, you need to start using it, and engaging more with the players in the threads, and this goes for all councilmen, Finch, xavgb and Ausma feel like the only two players on the council, and if im being honest if the reason that the rest of you on the council don't post is the reason Lily stated, i just outright think you should step down and allow someone who is willing to put in the effort to properly steer this tier in the right direction. And if you AGREED to join the ou council, then don't be thin skinned, GET in the threads and make posts, start NOW, you being busy is ZERO excuse as finch is actively working through his BUSY schedule to make posts and put in a strong effort to work on the tier and smogon in general tbh, and its starting to piss me off that his hard work sometimes go un-noticed, sorry to put other council members on blast like this but my sentiment for blunder's post goes deeper than just a suspect test, TL;DR, another apology to Lily here for my tone the point im tryna make is dont agree/consent to do voluntary work for something this important and then not take it super seriously thats just outright lame. Yes i 100% agree we need a separate thread for the more qualified players but that doesnt mean you shouldn't atleast make an attempt to try to educate the lesser experienced players you're tiering for them too after all. And this is exactly why when my homie ima asked if i was interested in being on council awhile back i flat out said no, felt like i couldnt put in as much effort as finch, yes im interested obviously, but its a big commitment, so i put my own personal feelings aside and turned it down, if ur gonna commit u should go all the way.
This next paragraph is a response to shaymin sky/slainey, imma try to make this as short as possible because this is not the place to discuss high variance where anything can win, and a constantly fresh metagame is extremely healthy for any metagame, being able to flip matchups is also extremely healthy because during the past gens, impossible mus on preview, was an incredibly lame aspect of competitive mons, always hated it, everybody should have a fair chance in any matchup, and everyone should be ACTIVE in a metagame as a player AND a teambuilder if theyre gonna play it at a competent level, so if anything, an ever changing metagame is healthy in my eyes.
Now lets get back to Kyurem, i already listed very strong arguments for both sides, ban and dnb, but the thread still feels divided, first thing's first, this is my definition of broken checks broken: When an broken/unhealthy mon checks another broken/unhealthy mon. BOTH parties have to be broken for this to apply.
That being said, i still somewhat have a strong dnb sentiment for kyurem given the unique premise at hand here, say it like you want to, without Tera blast, I think volcarona is completely fine and healthy(i will argue with people who try to argue against this in the eventual retest, this is not the place). This will be important for what im about to say so keep this volcarona paragraph in mind.
The less offensive options we have to break these strong defensive mons/cores, which leads to centralization to the remaining offensive mons/cores, gen 9 has been the gen with the most offense thus far, but we just cannot ignore that its been the gen with the most defense as well, just take a look at the amount of defensive(some can even be offensive) mons this gen has: gliscor, ting lu, clodsire, skeledirge, toxapex, alomomola, skarmory, corviknight, garganacl, dondozo, zapdos, glowking, gweezing, moltres, amoonguss, blissey, clefable, now at the start, we had enough offensive options to handle all these, but when you eliminate nearly all the prominent breakers, we have: ogerpon, raging bolt, kingambit, roaring moon, kyurem, gholdengo, darkrai, Primarina.
And Yes, i know there are niche breakers that can be explored, but we cant possibly not account for the fact that nobody wants to innovate due to some of these breakers being banned, and less options to break these defensive cores, which directly leads to centralization on these remaining COMMON mons, which honestly, theres a survey every 2 weeks, fast tiering action, its gonna hit a point where we end up in a metagame of few offensive options, and the world of defensive options and people will call it balanced in a tera metagame, i believe that all playstyles should be thriving, balance or Fat should NEVER be on top, and this lead me to realizing that the problem with this tier might be the faulty tiering policy, where you cant ban moves to save pokemon, which would be fair if game freak didnt introduce like 50 new broken moves each gen, for example, this tier would be solved if we had:
Magearna without stored power, archaludon without electro shot, palafin without jet punch, volcarona without TERA BLAST, annihilape without rage fist etc.
Now ik i probably shouldnt bring this up but you CANNOT ignore that testing kyurem in the tier with these, and testing kyurem in the tier without these are two completely different things, they are completely healthy mons without these insane moves, and they would be enough for kyurem to remain in the tier, remember, its not broken checks broken if these mons are healthy, and they are healthy without these moves, so these solid and healthy answers would be viable options to check kyurem, and remove the fact that each set has different counters, volcarona covers the subtect set and any set that isnt scale shot, magearna with av covers all sets barring terablast(another broken move) cheese which is easy to revenge, av arch, great sponge to its hits, not a counter but a check, arch without eshot also restores usage to rain by replacing eshot with thunder which is a net positive because only eshot breaks it, ape also takes it on and acts as a unique spinblocker, and a unique lead, gear is a staple on so many unique comps too, palafin with cb acts as a check to kyu and alot of stuff, note im listing the many many positives of these being in the tier without their broken move, but also im listing how these would derain kyurem's impact on the tier massively.
A metagame where arch rain(without eshot) has good usage, other gear comps, loads of volcarona comps, and limited kyu usage, where all playstyles flourish cuz lets be honest fat and balance love gear and they love volc too, is a net positive for the tier as all playstyles have abundant resources which prevents centralization, and gives a fair chance for all styles to win rather than over centralizing with just offense to win every game or just balance to win every game when all the offense gets banned. Every playstyle should be on an even playing field.
The main point im trying to make is, we are assessing kyurem in a flawed metagame because of the many options getting banned due to their broken moves, multiple mons have to be broken with the move for it to go? why? thats is so obviously bad as electro shot wouldnt be broken on a lv1 rattata, therefore its not the move, im pretty sure last respects is fine on like half the shit mons we have available right now(and of course it breaks houndstone it has sand rush and stab LR) , it wouldnt break something like hippo or skarmory, and this statement alone nullifies the entire argument that "it needs to be broken on multiple pokemon to get banned".
Im just pointing out the DIFFERENCE between testing kyurem in a metagame where these are allowed, and testing kyurem in a metagame where theyre not, its not broken checks broken, the broken moves are what breaks them, the mons arent broken themselves, hypothetically, thats like saying , oh okay litten, gholdengo and pult gets astral barrage lets ban those two instead cuz its not broken on litten in LC, now theyre gone, oop zama is broken now, yea no shit, you banned its healthy answers because a broken move broke them, the mons themselves arent broken its the move, and we need to start acknowledging this, because it seems like every new gen, game freak released insane moves that somehow top the previous one.
Which now brings me to my main point which has to do with this suspect, i was pushing for a ban on terablast first as there are multiple users that are broken with the move, i.e. volcarona, gambit, eleki. If we had volcarona in the tier, the sentiment for kyurem would NEVER be this strong in the first place, it does not feel fair, and the sentiment for a terablast ban was the strongest, but then theres videos on youtube like the pinkacross one with strong influence on the active smogon playerbase, which directly shifted the sentiment from tera blast to kyurem, RESULTING in a sentimental shift from terablast to kyurem, and i have a solution for this, in the future , just hand out 1 infraction point for everyone in the thread that tries to persuade or encourage people to vote for something, and hand out TWO for youtubers with >10000 subscribers that try to make a video persuading the viewers. Finch i apologise for the rant but the persuasion feels unfair, everyone should just state their reasoning and opinion without persuasion, that pinkacross video is just flat out persuasive, let it be a fair ground, because if we wouldve gone for tera blast first, and we wouldve had volcarona, i bet there would be a stronger dnb sentiment for kyurem than there is now, and dont say we can retest kyurem in the future, because it would be too late by the time that happens and we would be tiering a past gen, do it now while the gen is still here, we should be voting under the consensus that volcarona will be back and healthy, because itd be a healthy presence that curbs special threats from snowballing, like kyurem, darkrai, without the unhealthy aspect, aka the free coverage for every typing, tera is part of the issue here, but its just terablast, so without that, we would have not only a viable spinner in eleki, but a fully healthy mon like volcarona which hard stops all kyurem sets except shit specs draco, or scale shot dice WITH the right tera, and those two sets are curbed easily by other healthy mons, i dont see it as moving backwards as some have stated, its more fixing past mistakes like testing volc before assessing the over centralizing move terablast, and efficiently improving the metagame by doing it right the second time.
With both volcarona and kyurem in the tier we are one step closer to a balance, we should focus on regaining some offensive options to combat the very high level of defensive options without these broken moves(especially terablast as ausma stated) causing these offensive options to snowball, finch, even ausma said it herself word for word in stallcord: "magearna without stored power would actually solve this tier id be super down" , so you know its not just me.
And if we dont start looking into this, and acting fast, rather than just mindlessly banning offensive mons, we will never arrive at the so called "ideal metagame" until there are almost no offensive options and the world of defensive options, because lets face it, theres a survey every 1-2 weeks, it should be every 2-3 months, give people time to adapt and think, the only 3 month delay between surveys happened after volcarona got banned, then it was back to every 2 weeks. I would rather have a metagame where every style has high variance and viability, rather than a metagame where fat balance rules all, arch with rain(without eshot), gear with BO/Stall/rain/balance(without stored) ape with BO/HO(without rage fist) , volc with all styles(without terablast), etc, no style is snowballing, because every style has abundant options without these broken moves, given all the premises, kyurem was never broken to begin with, just collateral to the actual issue at hand, ill just outright say it, we should NOT have tested it this early without RE ASSESSING the situation at hand and the actual problem with the tier and why everybody isnt happy with it rn. I will be making a thread or a post in policy review i know theres gonna be alot of people that will support this, we need to change this policy immediately, the collateral is starting to show and its negatively affecting the tier, and people in this thread wonder why theres such a strong dnb sentiment.
Thats about all i wanted to address, and if people really dont see eye to eye with me on this stuff and want to discuss 1v1 rather than responding here, my discord tag is stormzone , or Storm Zone#0778 , feel free to message me there if you took anything personally , id love to talk with you about it and get on the same page.
Thank you all for reading if you got this far into the post really means alot.
Yeah seeing CTC egg you on and the back and forth bickering between him and you was definitely interesting… glad its over…
thank you for trying to quell the flames, I feel bad you and the rest of the council and mods have to deal with this kind of stuff a lot. I can only imagine this suspect thread has been a nightmare scenario. Makes me respect staff and council members like you, ausma and finchinator even more than I already do
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