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Unpopular opinions
- Thread starter antemortem
- Start date
I've heard at least in the case of Nintendo specifically, they don't usually enforce their patents, and only patent things so that other companies who will enforce them can't get them first. They only enforce them in cases where the infringer is being really shitty and disrespectful about it.
I understand the risk of setting a horrible precedence, and we should have focused on what the reason is for the lawsuit, not get on each others’ throat by repeating the already stated points, but as DrPumpkin said, Nintendo did it in case the infringer was very desrespectful about it.
What patent the Palword devs were disrespectful about it, we don’t know so far, but it might have something to do with the fact that you can capture and sell Pals and humans alike, which is way too close to human trafficking or slave trading for comfort.
Nevertheless, I swear that many fans and haters alike (for both Palworld and Nintendo) tend to be too one-sided for arguments and judgement, and the Nintendo haters uses the patent to demonize the heck out of Nintendo.
What patent the Palword devs were disrespectful about it, we don’t know so far, but it might have something to do with the fact that you can capture and sell Pals and humans alike, which is way too close to human trafficking or slave trading for comfort.
Nevertheless, I swear that many fans and haters alike (for both Palworld and Nintendo) tend to be too one-sided for arguments and judgement, and the Nintendo haters uses the patent to demonize the heck out of Nintendo.
The boring truth is that we simply don't have enough information to make a final conclusion on the nature of this lawsuit. Maybe it's a nothingburger that'll anticlimactically end in a settlement. Maybe Pocketpair have done something genuinely bad and are getting their just desserts. Maybe it's the beginning of a sinister era of Nintendo trying to throttle competition via patent trolling at an unprecedented level. Until the actual court proceedings give us additional insight we cannot say, and even then I'm sure there'll be all sorts of false readings and misinformation thrown about by people with axes to grind one way or another.
Still hoping they both lose. 
This lawsuit somehow spirals so out of control that a series of absolutely devastating scandalous revelations are made about both involved parties. Several of Kanto's most popular Pokemon were designed by and stolen from a guy Masuda knew in high school who was later killed by the yakuza to keep from squealing. PocketPair is revealed to be a front for drug trafficking operations in Afghanistan. As both brands go down in flames Yokai Watch 5 is revealed and goes on to sell 20 million copies. The Glorious And Most Noble Jibanyan Imperiate rules for a thousand yearsStill hoping they both lose.
I want to be clear that I have a pretty cynical view on all parties involved.
I don't think any party in this lawsuit actually has positive intentions for the consumer or something, and I don't want what I said to come off that way. Even if Nintendo was going after Palworld explicitly for plagiarism, it wouldn't be because they actually dislike plagiarism, I have zero illusions on that.
While I do think Pocketpair is in the wrong here, I don't want anyone to think that I believe Nintendo is doing anything righteous. It's a business.
I don't actually think this is enforceable, even if Nintendo did want it to be. I think part of the TOTK patents though is you have to keep in mind these aren't just "thing moving", from a physics engine perspective a lot of these things are pretty complex.
This for instance is a patent for the physics calculations of how Link moves while on moving objects. To my knowledge a lot of games essentially do tricks around moving objects. One of the older tricks in the book is moving the world instead of the platform, for instance. But because of how interactive every object is in TOTK it gets more complicated. In the TOTK GDC they show just how buggy a game gets when you have tons of physics objects that can move each other which is what makes things like this actually pretty magical.
They've also patented stuff like Splatoon's map system for PVP,
however, and this is something that existed in Splatoon 2 5 years prior.
Patenting this in 2022 instead of 2016-2017 adds weight to the idea of Nintendo getting stricter on how it patents things, potentially. Overall I'm not that worried because patent trolling game mechanics has had limited effect.
Geez things got heated real fast. 
Was anyone in doubt of that? This has nothing to do with the consumers (aside from where we spend out money). Nintendo & TPC sees Palworld infringing on their ip, chooses to go after them.
I know very little about Pocket Pair. From what I know is that they previously made games which were also a blatent mishmash of other popular games, Palworld was the one that got popular cause it heavily cribbed off Pokemon, made a ton of money and used none of it to make it less infringement-y, and now the bears they poked have woken up and coming down on them.
If I were to make a jump to a conclusion about them, they feel like a cocky group. They mishmash games, wear their inspirations (and copied assets) on their sleeve as the game's selling point, yet claim complete originality. Like them or hate them, this brazenness paid off but it was always a double-edge sword.
It's nothing to worry about... until a company decides to act upon it. Now, as you pointed out with the above patents, they feel very specific to the game they were implemented in. The Zelda ToTK patent is about the complex mathematics needed for binding items together to make a movable object. The Splatoon patent shows how the map screen looks and displays info. It's likely no one is going to directly copy these mechanics in the same way.
However, the problem & concerns arise that, because a company has patented these concepts, it removes the opportunity for other developers to do something else & potentially unique with the concept.
Two most famous examples:
* Lord of the Rings: Shadow of War's "Nemesis System". A system which generate Orcs with unique traits, ranks them in an army, and if one kills you they raise in prestige becoming more powerful & given more personality, potentially turning them into a rival for a time.
Now imagine such a system in a Fire Emblem game? Or Dynasty Warriors? Or a Dark Souls? Or Like A Dragon? Or Legend of Zelda? Etc..
But you can't, WB patent it. Now WB themselves could use it for one of their DC Comic games (most likely would be Batman as it deals with crime families), but they haven't. LoTR Shadow of War is the only one who used it and they never looked back, taking what potentially what could have been a revolutionary mechanic for enemy creation and killing it or weaponizing it for anyone who attempts to do something similar.
* While no longer in effect, Namco patented "auxiliary games on loading screens" which they had in a few of their games. You're a game developer who's game has some instances of prolonged loading and would like to keep the player distracted with a small mini-game? Well before 2015 you were SOL (though some publishers worked around this by having the mini--game have some affect in the main game, though obviously not all games could do this or would have to go out of their way to).
Patented in 1995, for 27 years players were forced to sit and wait through loading screens because, while who knows how many games would have had one, Namco assured no game could which took away from the game experience (sure a random mini-game could too, but having to wait assured it on a more in-your-face level).
Getting back on point, Pokemon-likes are a popular genre and there has been quite a few who did their own unique thing, especially with the creature design. But Nintendo and TPC are not going after the creature design which likely sparked their wrath, their going after Palworld via patent infringement which is a more obtuse thing (especially in Japanese courts if what I heard is true). If they get Palworld on all the Pokemon mechanics they copied, many which other Pokemon-likes also use, it now creates unstable ground. To what extent would a Pokemon-like have to go in order to avoid the patent? Is it simply because Palworld copied Pokemon designs that raised Nintendo's/TPC's ire (in which case other Pokemon-likes with unique creature design don't have to worry about), or is there some other things which puts Pokemon-likes in danger for simply being Pokemon-like?
As Yung Dramps said a page before, I think this is a "get Capone on tax fraud" case. There's been plenty of other Pokemon-likes that Nintendo and TPC don't care about (some are even on Nintendo consoles) because they have unique monster designs (and sometimes art styles). This isn't about the capturing mechanic, it's just something they have a stronger case to win with due to their patent (if that's what they're going for).
Would Nintendo and TPC be doing this if not for certain Pals cribbing off Pokemon (a few in a blatant matter)? People are stuck on the designs because that is what so clearly started it and has Nintendo and TPC mad. They could make a strong copyright case for it, who knows maybe it would be brought up in some form like the model assets, but their lawyers know what will exactly work in the Japanese court system; why settle for first base when you can likely hit a home run?
Obviously you feel strongly about this, but come on man, how can you say these:
Are equivocal to this:
It's alright, you can dislike Nintendo & TPC without defending copyright infringement. You can like Palworld while admitting they really should have put some of the millions they made to redesigning the infringe-worthy Pals.
Was anyone in doubt of that? This has nothing to do with the consumers (aside from where we spend out money). Nintendo & TPC sees Palworld infringing on their ip, chooses to go after them.
I know very little about Pocket Pair. From what I know is that they previously made games which were also a blatent mishmash of other popular games, Palworld was the one that got popular cause it heavily cribbed off Pokemon, made a ton of money and used none of it to make it less infringement-y, and now the bears they poked have woken up and coming down on them.
If I were to make a jump to a conclusion about them, they feel like a cocky group. They mishmash games, wear their inspirations (and copied assets) on their sleeve as the game's selling point, yet claim complete originality. Like them or hate them, this brazenness paid off but it was always a double-edge sword.
It's nothing to worry about... until a company decides to act upon it. Now, as you pointed out with the above patents, they feel very specific to the game they were implemented in. The Zelda ToTK patent is about the complex mathematics needed for binding items together to make a movable object. The Splatoon patent shows how the map screen looks and displays info. It's likely no one is going to directly copy these mechanics in the same way.
However, the problem & concerns arise that, because a company has patented these concepts, it removes the opportunity for other developers to do something else & potentially unique with the concept.
Two most famous examples:
* Lord of the Rings: Shadow of War's "Nemesis System". A system which generate Orcs with unique traits, ranks them in an army, and if one kills you they raise in prestige becoming more powerful & given more personality, potentially turning them into a rival for a time.
Now imagine such a system in a Fire Emblem game? Or Dynasty Warriors? Or a Dark Souls? Or Like A Dragon? Or Legend of Zelda? Etc..
But you can't, WB patent it. Now WB themselves could use it for one of their DC Comic games (most likely would be Batman as it deals with crime families), but they haven't. LoTR Shadow of War is the only one who used it and they never looked back, taking what potentially what could have been a revolutionary mechanic for enemy creation and killing it or weaponizing it for anyone who attempts to do something similar.
* While no longer in effect, Namco patented "auxiliary games on loading screens" which they had in a few of their games. You're a game developer who's game has some instances of prolonged loading and would like to keep the player distracted with a small mini-game? Well before 2015 you were SOL (though some publishers worked around this by having the mini--game have some affect in the main game, though obviously not all games could do this or would have to go out of their way to).
Patented in 1995, for 27 years players were forced to sit and wait through loading screens because, while who knows how many games would have had one, Namco assured no game could which took away from the game experience (sure a random mini-game could too, but having to wait assured it on a more in-your-face level).
Getting back on point, Pokemon-likes are a popular genre and there has been quite a few who did their own unique thing, especially with the creature design. But Nintendo and TPC are not going after the creature design which likely sparked their wrath, their going after Palworld via patent infringement which is a more obtuse thing (especially in Japanese courts if what I heard is true). If they get Palworld on all the Pokemon mechanics they copied, many which other Pokemon-likes also use, it now creates unstable ground. To what extent would a Pokemon-like have to go in order to avoid the patent? Is it simply because Palworld copied Pokemon designs that raised Nintendo's/TPC's ire (in which case other Pokemon-likes with unique creature design don't have to worry about), or is there some other things which puts Pokemon-likes in danger for simply being Pokemon-like?
As Yung Dramps said a page before, I think this is a "get Capone on tax fraud" case. There's been plenty of other Pokemon-likes that Nintendo and TPC don't care about (some are even on Nintendo consoles) because they have unique monster designs (and sometimes art styles). This isn't about the capturing mechanic, it's just something they have a stronger case to win with due to their patent (if that's what they're going for).
Would Nintendo and TPC be doing this if not for certain Pals cribbing off Pokemon (a few in a blatant matter)? People are stuck on the designs because that is what so clearly started it and has Nintendo and TPC mad. They could make a strong copyright case for it, who knows maybe it would be brought up in some form like the model assets, but their lawyers know what will exactly work in the Japanese court system; why settle for first base when you can likely hit a home run?
Obviously you feel strongly about this, but come on man, how can you say these:
Are equivocal to this:
It's alright, you can dislike Nintendo & TPC without defending copyright infringement. You can like Palworld while admitting they really should have put some of the millions they made to redesigning the infringe-worthy Pals.
I already talked about this before and ngl this idea just wasn't actually that good
Like I don't think it was The Patent I think the idea just sucked, it sounds good on paper but in practice it really doesn't help with much because loading isn't the time to do this shit, matchmaking is a better time and that's why games since long before 2015 had training rooms in multiplayer games.
What Worldie said made me think someone may have thought I was saying Nintendo was doing good. I just wanted to clarify what I felt, not sure why this is so touched upon. Not that I think it's breaking new groun.
Again I'm not actually sure how much of this is because of a patent and not more or less "this doesn't actually fit in a lot of games", especially considering the game that uses the Nemesis system is a game *about* it. As in, without it the game is pretty basic.
With both of these cases I think people just assume an idea is too good and that these patents are the reason why and... No I just don't actually agree. I keep saying over and over in this thread: Almost none of these patents are enforceable! Nintendo's violated these patents themselves!
It is IMHO more likely that there just aren't many games that are using either of these patents because they're very specific and don't fit most games or game structures. Out of the games you listed maybe Dynasty Warriors could use it; none of the others actually fit. Dark Souls? These games have invader/rival systems, it's called the online multiplayer. For singleplayer, the Nemesis System is supposed to add narrative elements and character development which doesn't really fit.
Fire Emblem doesn't really fit on the face of it. I don't see where Zelda fits in here. Etc.
This is just a very specific idea and I don't think there'd be more games like it with or without the patent, because it's something you kinda have to base an entire game around. Most developers want control over the narrative elements, or lack-there-of narrative elements. The Nemesis System works for the games it is in because it's supposed to be an extremely player-driven narrative.
"Patented in the 90s, having multiple camera control options was patented by Sega, disallowing games from having multiple camera control options for 20+ years. Gamers were forced to use one single camera option throughout entire games, and god knows how many games would've added it without the patent."
Like, that is how this sounds to me. I feel like people cherrypicked patents of ideas that were patented that they think sound cool and then use that as an example when objectively basically none of this is ever how it has worked in gaming. If games wanted to they could have absolutely added minigames on loading screens.
Again: This. Is. Not. Enforceable. No court is going out and taking games down from this. Games violate patents all the time. None of this ACTUALLY matters; videogame companies try it and it has never worked. If an idea isn't used by more games it isn't because it is patented it's because the idea isn't that good.
Sega patented (If I'm understanding this right) showing the controls to a game on the screen in 1999
I think y'all are overselling the importance of patents in games because companies do it all the time and it basically doesn't matter. You will find companies trying to patent basically entire genres of videogames, or nicher parts of game tech that became industry standard, or specific gameplay parts that became industry standard.
If Nintendo is actually dumb enough to try and sue Palworld on a gameplay mechanic patent they will probably lose because I can't think of a single case where a videogame mechanic patent has actually mattered.
Like ultimately none of us will know about the court case until it happens but I promise you this patent stuff is really not that scary. It sounds scary because Nintendo is a very litigious company but even they can't get around the simple fact that none of this actually works. If they bring it to court I expect a settlement or loss.
At best for the patent filer, patenting a gameplay mechanic acts as a deterrent, at worst it's companies marking territory like dogs. Doesn't stop another dog from pissing there 2 hours later.
Tbh I've not been doing mentally well lately, so I'm gonna take a break from forums in general.
It's not just you and I apologize.
I don't like Palworld
But I also don't like works that are at least somewhat transformative in nature to be lumped with plagiarism, be those works Palworld, Top Cat or The Guiana Sisters
it also has nothing to do with my stance on copyright ;)
and as for those examples 315111, when it comes to Nidoking specifically, oh yes, he's as original as grass Cinderace there
you see Baragon is a specific kaiju that's very distinctive, Nidoking is really. really, really derivative of it, like "this is not Superman cause he's wearing blue and yellow and named Ken Kent" derivative
It can happen to everyone. Don't worry about it. Take care of yourself
yeah i was wondering how john gamefreak got away with nidoking being not-baragon, even if i happen to like kaiju-shaped animals turned into pokemon. i guess nidoqueen looks like a femme baragon, to a lesser extent. rhydon and kangashkan particularly don't look like any particular kaiju, other than being godzilla-shaped rhino and kangaroo.
Except GF didn't take a picture, drawing, or model of Baragon and drew over/added stuff onto it. Nidoking is a classic example of a homage, yes its based on Baragon with some visual similarities, but Nidoking is just as much as its own unique creature. It has a different posture, different body proportions, very different silhouette, not to mention different art style and presentation. You're not going to confuse a costume of Nidoking for a giant kaiju monster, just like you're not going to confuse Baragon for a Pokemon.
Verdash is quite the different story. It is a Cinderace that was recolored green and had plantlife added onto it. It has the same pose and body proportions of Cinderace. If you put it in silhouette and showed it to someone who doesn't know about Palworld they'll probably wonder "wait, did Cinderace always have a fluffy burning tail?". Verdash is drawn, purposely so, in a similar if not same style as Cinderace. Finally, both Cinderace and Verdash are colorful elemental creatures in a monster catching series, you can totally swap them and they would not look out of place in the other's game. "Well how many other ways are you supposed to make a grass rabbit sport player"? Well aside from some extreme redesigns you can easily find with a Google search of "Verdash redesigns", I found this design to be close enough to what they wanted but different enough that it's not exactly a Cinderace remodel; and that's just a quick sketch from that artist.
Finally, let's talk about intent. Nidoking is a homage to Baragon likely because GF staff members have fond memories of watching kaiju movies when they were kids. And now that they were making a monster collecting game, they created some Pokemon which resembled popular kaiju because it would be cool to command it in battle and have it as a friend/pet. Verdash is a ripoff of Cinderace because Pocket Pair WANTS you to see it go "oh its not-Cinderace, let me give it a machine gun and gun down other Pals, lulz". I can only imagine they chose Cinderace instead of Incineroar because Gen VIII was the current gen when they were developing Palworld.
It... it really doesn't, Nidoking's ears are rounded and he has a white chest, but otherwise is just Baragon, yes one is a rubber costume and the other is a drawing but how does that change anything? is not as if the postures of either are static, their silhouettes vary only in the ears, Baragon is even called "Fierce King of the Underground" he's a ground type
also, art style? aren't we talking about character design?
here's realistic Nidoking
here's realistic Baragon
also also, don't see how "hey kids want to command a not-kaiju in RGP battles?" is so different from "hey kids want to command a not-pokemon in FPS battle?"
also also also, what are we even arguing?!
that they literally ripped the model of pokemon and edited them a little? some 3D modelers say yes, some 3D modelers say no, the fact that all reports say Nintendo is suing for patent infringement and not for stealing assets points to "they didn't"
that either Nidoking or
that one's a homage and one a rip-off? how can you tell when someone is homaging something versus when they're ripping the off? intent
and how do you know someone's intent? mind reading, no literally mind reading, oh sure we claim we can read someone's intent, but just on this argument 2 out of 2 people that have quoted my posts have misread my intent to the point I've had to spell it out word by word, and I still think my intentions are misread; I'm not going to pretend that I can read the intent of someone I've never met and whose language I don't understad
seriously, what are we even arguing?!
I'm arguing "Palworld is not plagiarism is highly derivative work" cause I think that's an important distinction and also "patent trolling is bad" cause is suing not because you think you're right but because you think you can pay a lawyer for longer than the other guy and thus win that way
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Fanmade stuff don't count.
Fine if you want more:
- Posture: Baragon is slouched over, even when on two feet its usually in a kangaroo like position. Nidoking can stand straight-up, infact it looks to be its default posture, slouching over when ready to battle & trying to look intimidating. Baragon is also shown to often go on all-fours, Nidoking is completely bipedal; both their body shapes are designed around that.
- Arms: Baragon's arms are kept close to its body and in a bent shape as their also its front legs used for digging. Nidoking, being completely bipedal, has full shoulder freedom of its arms and is able to spread them far apart which it does times to look intimidating.
- Tail: When standing on its hind legs Baragon keeps the base of its tail on the ground. While decided to give it a lumbering appearance, biologically speaking this would make sense as it's huge body would need its tail to act as a sort of third leg (such as with kangaroos). Nidoking has been shown with its tail hovering in the air as much as on the ground, infact one of Nidoking's mentioned attacking methods is swinging around and using its tail like a club. Baragon doesn't look to be agile enough to do that kind of menuever, at least not while on two feet.
Well then don't disregard everything else I said.
Right, let's move on from this.
I mentioned it several times in the post you're responding to.
I guess we're not moving on.
You know what, let us move on. Believe what you want.
I presented my case to the thread, you presented your's, I think we've gave everyone enough info for them to make a decision.
I'm standing by my point: Nidoking is a homage, Verdash is a rip off, you can read all my previous posts why that is.
I mostly agree with that though, for my definition, I would add a little asterick just after work:
"Palworld is not plagiarism is highly derivative work*"
* In terms of gameplay mechanics, worldbuilding, and a good number of their Pals... however there are a still number of their Pals which are infringment-y expies of Pokemon even in full design, fusion of designs, or taken traits.
So... guess now we just need to wait a few months to see where this case goes.
Yuck, Nintendo's lawyers' divison vs Pocketpair's shady practices? There's literally zero reason to root for one or the other...
Also I'm in a weird position with the first impressions bc Phione is my least favorite Pokemon of all time, but it seems to have a big role here. Is this how Charizard haters felt playing SWSH?
I wasn't much of a fan of Realidea's plot (awesome presentation tho) so I didn't pay much interest when this was released. But looking at all of the positive reception I could be very wrong, I'm giving this one a shot (when I find time ofc...)
Also I'm in a weird position with the first impressions bc Phione is my least favorite Pokemon of all time, but it seems to have a big role here. Is this how Charizard haters felt playing SWSH?
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just experienced the "acid rain" glitch organically in platinum and... is it unpopular that i thought it was funny as hell? there was even an asleep mon woken up by the non-existent uproar, which i didn't even remember was a part of the glitch. also it helped me win faster lmao 
just experienced the "acid rain" glitch organically in platinum and... is it unpopular that i thought it was funny as hell? there was even an asleep mon woken up by the non-existent uproar, which i didn't even remember was a part of the glitch. also it helped me win faster lmao
Nah acid rain was fun.
I’m telling you kids, they don’t make Pokemon glitches the way they used to!
Or maybe I just have glitch nostalgia.
Unless Castform or Cherrim were involved.
most pokemon fans have not experienced a somewhat obscure and pretty hard to trigger casually bug in a old generation?My take here is that most Pokémon fans don't even know what Acid Rain is and/or have never experienced it.
I've never experienced it
*shocker*
RBY: here kids, you can clone infinite items and get the Phantom Pokemon, Mew with these easy to follow steps!
SV: uuuuuuuh ohhhhhh *graphics stutter, player character falls through the floor*