Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4

Finchinator said:
Dragonite is not broken. There is counterplay across the board. Sometimes it is annoying for offense and has swings that can add or subtract certain counterplay, but it’s not more extreme or damning than a dozen other things.

Gliscor suspect is still planned and upcoming soon. Perhaps later this week or the start of next week. There will be infrastructure in place to assure a smoother suspect this time around.
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Here before somehow even more voter fraud than last time!!

RaikouLover said:
Dragonite is quite annoying but still far down the list of stupid broken mons.

Gliscor will not be missed. No one likes this cancer.

Follow re: Quick Claw.
I tested Quick Claw Kingambit yesterday and was surprised how stupidly cheap this item is. It’s a 20% chance each turn of free, unadulterated cheese. I chose Kingambit because it doesn’t “need” any item to do what it does. I was surprised how often it cheaped people out of mons. Sequences where I was going to Kowtow or Iron Head anyway in anticipating living a hit, were too often rewarded with a free kill.
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Quick Claw is only legal because it's bad. That's not a very good reason. It doesn't matter if it's bad, it's uncompetitive and it should be banned. No good reason why it's legal outside of "haha funny 20% chance to win"
 
RainebowValiant said:
Here before somehow even more voter fraud than last time!!


Quick Claw is only legal because it's bad. That's not a very good reason. It doesn't matter if it's bad, it's uncompetitive and it should be banned. No good reason why it's legal outside of "haha funny 20% chance to win"
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should scope lens be banned? extra crit chance is uncompetitive because you could get an ohko you shouldn’t have!
 
EpicGuy321 said:
should scope lens be banned? extra crit chance is uncompetitive because you could get an ohko you shouldn’t have!
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False equivalency. Quick Claw is an RNG-based item, whereas critical hits are a RNG mechanic. One can be removed, the other can’t if we want to stay true to cart to the extent that we have.
 
RainebowValiant said:
Here before somehow even more voter fraud than last time!!


Quick Claw is only legal because it's bad. That's not a very good reason. It doesn't matter if it's bad, it's uncompetitive and it should be banned. No good reason why it's legal outside of "haha funny 20% chance to win"
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"20% chance to win" is a deliberate misinterpretation of Quick Claw. It's a completely dead item slot in the face of priority (you're only first in your bracket), any pokemon that would be slower anyway (imagine answering threats defensively? wild), if you want to be using any status move that doesn't boost your defenses in some way, and switches. I've heard QC compared to Bright Powder many times as an argument for its ban and I fundamentally disagree with that premise as unlike QC, Bright Powder can still directly influence the first three scenarios I listed. While it can be a bit cheesy sometimes, I don't believe it's anywhere near pressingly uncompetitive enough to be banned given the various forms of counterplay.
 
EpicGuy321 said:
scope lens outside of focus energy is an rng item too.
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It guarantees a boost to critical hit rate, not a RNG-determined boost to something. It boosts an RNG mechanic, but it’s not inherently dependent on RNG.
 
EpicGuy321 said:
should scope lens be banned? extra crit chance is uncompetitive because you could get an ohko you shouldn’t have!
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No I just think unnecessary RNG items that no mon competitively runs should be banned because they make the experience worse without providing actual benefits.

Carl The Turtle said:
"20% chance to win" is a deliberate misinterpretation of Quick Claw. It's a completely dead item slot in the face of priority (you're only first in your bracket), any pokemon that would be slower anyway (imagine answering threats defensively? wild), if you want to be using any status move that doesn't boost your defenses in some way, and switches. I've heard QC compared to Bright Powder many times as an argument for its ban and I fundamentally disagree with that premise as unlike QC, Bright Powder can still directly influence the first three scenarios I listed. While it can be a bit cheesy sometimes, I don't believe it's anywhere near pressingly uncompetitive enough to be banned given the various forms of counterplay.
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The issue is that it IS uncompetitive and it offers no benefit to competitive play. The point of the item is to cheese and it serves no purpose otherwise.
 
Magcargo said:
I think the idea of Dragonite being OP has some merit. I wouldnt ban it myself, but the mon is Gouging Lite.

Sure if you look at the standard DD set, it's pretty unassuming and easy to check. But the amount of variations it can perform while still remaining effective is crazy. Tera Blast Flying, Encore, Scale shot + Fire Punch, Facade, weirdo Fire Spin sets, Dragon Tail, even crap like Stone edge. You can basically run whatever set you want on this mon and still remain moderately effective. Tera variation is also much higher on this mon than it seems at first glance - Tera Flying, Fairy, Fire, Normal, Ground, and a few more niche types can all cook while being reasonably effective. This mon picks and chooses what it can beat quite easily.

One could argue that Dragonite is more OP than Moon and I don't think they would be wrong... Tera + Multiscale let's this mon get away with some crazy stuff and it can feel a bit Zamazenta-esque with CB vs a few of the lower end BO teams.

During OLT this year, I saw a lot more Dragonite sweeps than Gouging Fire ones on the few teams I saw it on. I think Mimili ran both and they'd usually sweep with TB fly Dragonite iirc.
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Fire punch is a great move on Dnite if you want to do 0 damage even at +1, I've played it.
 
Cyber-DJ said:
I'm sure the scholars of Jimothy Cool's comment section can list ample amounts of counters to this item. After all, everyone knows that we of the Smogon community simply ban everything we lose to instead of making good teams and adapting to meta shifts
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This is so gratuitous
 
IMG_0238.jpeg

I know this goes somewhere here……
 
Why the fuck does dragonite deal like 24 damage to everything with espeed without tera bruh

Even at +1 WITH Tera Normal it's still not picking up OHKOs on the weakest shit like moth and ival

(Still a good mon but MAN it doesn't hit hard for a 134 attack mon with ddance)
 
RainebowValiant said:
Why the fuck does dragonite deal like 24 damage to everything with espeed without tera bruh

Even at +1 WITH Tera Normal it's still not picking up OHKOs on the weakest shit like moth and ival

(Still a good mon but MAN it doesn't hit hard for a 134 attack mon with ddance)
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It's probably because most people run HDB and non-STAB moves on it like E-speed, EQ, and Ice Spinner. You can run Choice Band, but then you can't set up and stay at base 80 speed.

This is why I like LO D-nite best. You can setup the DD and get extra damage on your attacks, allowing you to get KOs at +1 that you would normally need +2 for. This requires more support, though.
 
RainebowValiant said:
Why the fuck does dragonite deal like 24 damage to everything with espeed without tera bruh

Even at +1 WITH Tera Normal it's still not picking up OHKOs on the weakest shit like moth and ival

(Still a good mon but MAN it doesn't hit hard for a 134 attack mon with ddance)
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80 bp is really low for a mon to be ohkoing things with. Dragonite only has a 50ish percent chance to OHKO Iron Moth at +1 with Tera Normal ESpeed, while Dragapult has an 80ish percent chance at +1 with Dragon Darts. +14 base attack matters less than +20 move base power.

Also the only reason Iron Moth doesn't get ohkod is because it actively has to run defense evs lol.
 
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