(Little) Things that annoy you in Pokémon

[Yung Dramps]

Speaking as someone who hasn't played any of the 4, Indigo Disk is the one that impressed me the most as a bystander by far. S-class world-building and aesthetics, great new Pokemon, an amazingly deep and labyrinthine 3D Chargestone Cave reimagining and new characters just as awesome as their boss fights. If it was somehow possible to buy Indigo Disk alone as its own $15-20 standalone micro game I would do so without hesitation.

 

[pika pal]

One thing I appreciate about the SV DLC that retroactively annoys me about the SwSh Expansion is that SV is designed to be two parts of one experience, which makes them logical to package together as products: Besides Gameplay elements, things introduced in The Teal Mask directly carry into and influence Indigo Disk threads (Kieran and Carmine's character arcs, Mechanical payoffs like Dipplin -> Hydrapple reveal, more Brain-taxing Battle design with the Ogre Clan -> Doubles Strategies) that's all even paid off with an Epilogue to get some cast interaction across both parts of the game. In contrast, the IoA and Crown Tundra have very little to do with each other, irrespective of quality judgement on their own merits.

CT also feels kind of lame to me because Calyrex feels designed to be part of the Mythos (Zacian and Zamazenta are obvious stand-ins for King Arthur's Sword and Shield, Excalibur and Pridwen), yet no connection is drawn between it and anything that happens in the main plot. I understand part of the point of that side plot is that Calyrex has been forgotten and thus no one would think to seek it out or call on it, but any connection is just kind of brushed off if even implied. Terapagos gets away with this better since its link to the Paradox Pokemon is more tenuous (it mostly being the origin of a Phenomenon that brought them here through human intervention, rather than an actor/entity in the Raidon's lore for example). The SwSh Manga puts in a bit more to connect things, which I think is to the story's benefit.

Spoiler Summary per Bulbapedia

So initially Sordward and Shielbert try to use the Rusted Arms to fight against Eternatus, and predictably fail. Zacian and Zamazenta arrive to fight it, but male Protagonist Henry is acting irrational because of Eternatus's poison, on the heels of failing to "repair" the Rusted items, and thus refuses to give the weapons to the Hero Pokemon. The two attack Eternatus and they seemingly vanish along with Henry, putting a stop to the equivalent of the Game's Darkest Day event.

The IoA and CT coverage revolves around retrieving and purifying the Rusted Shield and Sword from the respective locations. Calyrex plays a role in locating the Sword, and after being reunited with one of the Steeds, proceeds to protect the people from the rampaging Dynamax Pokemon as a second Darkest Day is occurring after Eternatus's prior defeat evidently was temporary. Even if not given a direct interaction with the Wolves, it does suggest a part by Calyrex, and fighting the Giant Pokemon might be seen in miniature akin to King Arthur's return as a messiah figure to save Britain, as well as indirectly since Calyrex's part played allows Zacian and Zamazenta to properly end the Darkest Day when battling Eternatus with their Crowned forms.

 

[DrrT]

Honestly, the only issue I see with the manga's take is the pacing, because the Darkest Day efectively starts, then stops with a "and everyone was teleported away", then resumes later. Black being absorbed by the Light Stone or Gold initial fight with the Masked Man effectively felt less forced as climax interruptions because while sudden, they happen right before new main characters are included so it doesn't feel like such an obvious stop, if that makes sense. You even build some intrigue on them.

But if we are talking about Calyrex, at the risk of beating a dead horse (pun not intended) the thing that truly annoys me are the Eternatus references and the blue Dynamax, because it should have bigger implications. But Crown Tundra is so disconnected to the main plot the mentioned arbitrary lock with Calyrex exists-you can do almost everything before being a Champion, except fighting Calyrex because it's "too strong". I doubt it wasn't a concious decision, but I much prefer the Indigo Disk's take on it: if you want to explore the new stuff before completing the main game you are given an excuse for it (I don't really understand why, given that levels are still unchanged, but it's an option) but in order for the plot to actually advance, Kieran needs to become champion, and the AI needs to be gone in order for you to access the Underdepths. It makes sense. It feels natural why you can't progress or even enter the BB league. And this allows for the Crystal Lake pool scene and the Epilogue to be related to the base game giving them more of a finale feeling. Indigo Disk is a proper following of the base and Teal Mask stories, while Crown Tundra is an unrelated tour that just happens to have some lore hints (ironic as it features the main antagonist's sibling). It isn't just unrelated to the other DLC, is unrelated to everything.

Terapagos is handled poorly (specially compared to Ogerpon and Kieran) and there are still many questions regarding Area Zero (and they took advantage of that on the trailers which is particularly egregious) but I really feel like most of the disappointment came from the imagination theory -Pokemon really is the only franchise for children where after alternate dimensions we are literally told there is a time machine and we went "wait that doesn't make sense, it's a red herring!"- Terapagos tecnically does answer things. Calyrex meanwhile...why is it blue on Dynamax? Can it turn giant at will, with its own power separated from Eternatus as some theories say? If so, why does it have the same power than a literal alien being? Or are characters misinterpreting things and Galar itself actually do have something to do with Pokemon turning giant? It isn't at all what the story and dex entries suggest. If it isn't anything like that...why is it blue? Did it really fight Etenatus in the past? Did that happen before the wolves did? If so, why didn't it help them later? It doesn't even seem like its presence is needed given that in the base game you defeat Eternatus without it, and while Zacian/Zamazenta were also forgotten, it wasn't literal, the legend just changed details as it always happens until the idea of a sword and a shield reminded. Unless you want to argue Calyrex was actually one of the humans mentioned on it which only creates even more questions...

It's clear there was something on GF's minds but, because of wanting to make the DLC an unrelated adventure, they couldn't be upfront with it. So I wish they had not even bothered at all honestly. It's in a weird middle ground now that doesn't make completing Crown Tundra satisfactory in a "this really is finished" way. The base games has a much better finale feeling with the postgame Hop fight. It's weird because, given the levels, they clearly expected most people to play it after beating Leon- so why not use it to its full extent?

tldr: GF was seemingly scared of having the obvious postgame DLC actually be postgame story-wise in SWSH, so Calyrex is just vaguely implied to be related to stuff

 

[R_N]

I take it less as scared and more it was their first go at this particular type of content and were still feeling out how they wanted it to work. With SWSH they took the "let them run around and do stuff if they think they can" approach while keeping them as two more segregated "episodes" with some vague allusions to Implications.
Then with SV they decided to take advantage of the release schedule and purposely integrate it into relating to the story, to the point that Part 1 of the DLC still carries elements into Part 2. And the Epilogue on top of that to bring everything more or less together.

It'll be interesting to see how Gen 10 handles things! Will they go for a mix, an even more integrated approach, a more segregated approach, etc.

 

[Esserise]

It's clear there was something on GF's minds but, because of wanting to make the DLC an unrelated adventure, they couldn't be upfront with it.

I don’t think it’s a matter of “couldn’t.” Game Freak clearly like being vague rather than explicit at times. There’s been plenty of instances where, instead of spelling things out in detail, they leave stuff up to inference and speculation. The Abyssal Ruins. Aster. Cogita’s apparent immortality, and the history of the Celestica people. It’s entirely possible that they just didn’t want to say, for example, “Calyrex’s aura is blue because of this and that reason,” and preferred to leave it as a curious detail about the Pokémon.

The recent hack has certainly reiterated that they do put quite a lot of thought into things like worldbuilding and character details, while also showing us that a lot of that information isn’t communicated openly with the player.


Edit: Also, while it’s clearly not story-focused like the Area Zero portion of Indigo Disk, I think it’s worth mentioning that the SwSh DLC does still have its own way of tying the disparate DLCs and the main storyline together, in the form of the Galarian Star Tournament. You have to beat both DLCs in order to participate, and the competition is open to characters from the base game, IOA, and CT (allowing them to have various interactions with each other), and it’s revealed to have been funded by Sordward and Shielbert as a form of atonement. So I think even back then, Game Freak clearly had a sense that the two halves of the DLC should weave together in the end. But of course it makes sense that on their second attempt, they’d have a better idea of how to approach it.

 

[DrrT]

I don’t think it’s a matter of “couldn’t.” Game Freak clearly like being vague rather than explicit at times. There’s been plenty of instances where, instead of spelling things out in detail, they leave stuff up to inference and speculation. The Abyssal Ruins. Aster. Cogita’s apparent immortality, and the history of the Celestica people. It’s entirely possible that they just didn’t want to say, for example, “Calyrex’s aura is blue because of this and that reason,” and preferred to leave it as a curious detail about the Pokémon.

The recent hack has certainly reiterated that they do put quite a lot of thought into things like worldbuilding and character details, while also showing us that a lot of that information isn’t communicated openly with the player.


Edit: Also, while it’s clearly not story-focused like the Area Zero portion of Indigo Disk, I think it’s worth mentioning that the SwSh DLC does still have its own way of tying the disparate DLCs and the main storyline together, in the form of the Galarian Star Tournament. You have to beat both DLCs in order to participate, and the competition is open to characters from the base game, IOA, and CT (allowing them to have various interactions with each other), and it’s revealed to have been funded by Sordward and Shielbert as a form of atonement. So I think even back then, Game Freak clearly had a sense that the two halves of the DLC should weave together in the end. But of course it makes sense that on their second attempt, they’d have a better idea of how to approach it.

I thought that Cogita was pretry straightforward in all honestly. The other two people I know who have played LA picked on it inmediatly because of her comment of leaving Enemorus to you until you die. Even without finding the Ursaluna's texts that is pretty obvious abour her having at least an unusual lifespan. At the same time as much as I love Unova and diving I keep forgetting everything abour the Abyssal Ruins so I can't argue with that.

I actually originally mentioned the tournament on my post originally but deleted it because I'm starting to get self concious abour their length lol But yeah while it exists, it certainly doesn't give me the same sense of wrapping up that even rhe Epilogue of SV did. The leaks do prove they definetly plan worldbuilding to tiny details- I wasn't denying that, but how it's conveyed to rhe player. I don't think they would keep the current option of helping Calyrex until right before the final battle if while they also having exposition about him and Eternatus who the player may not even know about yet. It wouldn't even be a thought on most players' experience, but they clearly think about it being a possibility given the mentioned lock. I think it's perfectly possible they hold back because of that. I'm not asking for literal in-depth explanations of everything involving Calyrex (specially since right now there is no character that could talk about it in a natural way, except itself I guess? But that again would need more ties to the base game, like ackowledgement of the player catching Eternatus) but at the very least I don't think I should be walking out of a DLC with many more questions than before entering it, specially if it didn't answer anything of the base game -and excluding the wolves as a species if you think about it, I think base SWSH is a pretty simple story. If it was just the blue tint of Calyrex I could leave it as a nice detail, but they also tell you it saved the forest from a meteor (with the base game relating meteors to Eternatus directly) and that it was scared of open hands. They are not exactly being subtle about ir in a way most players would not pick it up, particularly if you play Shield where no matter what horse you pick, they *will* make sure you at least see the forest bit as a dex entry. And what annoys me is that, because it reads as a half-assed attempt at lore when they clearly have much more thought about it.

They clearly care enough about worldbuilding to create mythos in-universe as we have seen with the infamous stories of the leaks- but the games themselves are not giving you hints about them either. If you are going to relate something to the main plot and be vague about it, you can't also expect it to work as a standalone thing when it's so barebones. Here they are throwing "random bits about Calyrex" at me with huge implications about the base story itself but not answerinf anything of what it potentially means.

edit: Terapagos on the other hand, while having mysteries about it, does answer that it picks Paradoxes from specifically alternate timelines, while not constantly having nods it's related to them at all. It *is* tecnically the reason behind SV's whole story, but it doesn't potentially recontextualize everything on it. The Paradoxes still come from the Professor's meddling with the time machine, and it answers a question Arven had himself in the postgame. I don't feel like anything they could reveal in the future would change how I view the SV story in a fundamental way. Meanwhile if they reveal Calyrex faced Eternatus alongside the wolves that does change a lot of things but, and here's my main issue, I may never know. But I'm teased about it. On a DLC that tries to be so standalone you can almost do a full run of it without seeing the credits.

 

[Esserise]

I thought that Cogita was pretry straightforward in all honestly. The other two people I know who have played LA picked on it inmediatly because of her comment of leaving Enemorus to you until you die. Even without finding the Ursaluna's texts that is pretty obvious abour her having at least an unusual lifespan. At the same time as much as I love Unova and diving I keep forgetting everything abour the Abyssal Ruins so I can't argue with that.

Cogita being immortal isn’t really the vague matter I’m referring to so much as why she is immortal. With AZ, for example, we know he was made immortal by his resurrection machine. That extraordinary, superhuman trait of AZ is given a definitive, comprehensible cause. With Cogita, though? It’s said she was assigned a mission to wait for the LA protagonist to appear — presumably by Arceus — but why was that necessary? And why her? And does her immortality persist after her mission is complete? Could she still be alive in the modern day, or was she eventually able/allowed to pass? All of that is left hanging in order to let her character maintain a sense of enigma.

If it was just the blue tint of Calyrex I could leave it as a nice detail, but they also tell you it saved the forest from a meteor (with the base game relating meteors to Eternatus directly) and that it was scared of open hands. They are not exactly being subtle about ir in a way most players would not pick it up, particularly if you play Shield where no matter what horse you pick, they *will* make sure you at least see the forest bit as a dex entry. And what annoys me is that, because it reads as a half-assed attempt at lore when they clearly have much more thought about it.

Yes, the implications that Calyrex had an encounter with Eternatus are pretty blatant. Where I think you and I draw different conclusions, though, is in how significant these implications are supposed to be. To me, it doesn’t really read as creating big questions and leaving them unanswered — it comes off more as filling in some background details that aren’t essential to the story, but make for intriguing things to speculate about.

For example — from the breadcrumbs that The Crown Tundra offers, my takeaway is that when Eternatus’s meteor was on a collision course with Earth, Calyrex foresaw it and teleported a forest away from the impact site. When Eternatus landed, it got into a battle with Calyrex that left both of them diminished, and left Calyrex traumatized and without a steed. The place where the meteorite landed probably became the Max Lair, Eternatus remained dormant until 17,000 years later when it finished recharging itself and was defeated by Zacian and Zamazenta, and all the while, Calyrex grew weaker and weaker as it was gradually forgotten by the people of Freezington.

edit: Terapagos on the other hand, while having mysteries about it, does answer that it picks Paradoxes from specifically alternate timelines, while not constantly having nods it's related to them at all. It *is* tecnically the reason behind SV's whole story, but it doesn't potentially recontextualize everything on it. The Paradoxes still come from the Professor's meddling with the time machine, and it answers a question Arven had himself in the postgame. I don't feel like anything they could reveal in the future would change how I view the SV story in a fundamental way. Meanwhile if they reveal Calyrex faced Eternatus alongside the wolves that does change a lot of things but, and here's my main issue, I may never know. But I'm teased about it. On a DLC that tries to be so standalone you can almost do a full run of it without seeing the credits.

See, I never got the impression that Calyrex ever fought alongside the wolves. As far as I know, even the little hints about Calyrex’s past don’t allude to the wolves at all, so I don’t assume they were related. Thus, I don’t feel like they were trying to recontextualize anything — Calyrex’s conflict with Eternatus was separate from the wolves’, which makes sense to me anyway considering the time discrepancy between Eternatus’s meteor being said to have arrived 20,000 years ago, and the Darkest Day happening only 3,000 years ago.

I don’t really have any issues with how Terapagos was handled in The Indigo Disk. It has its own little points of intrigue that I’m fine with being left open-ended, like why it was in Stellar Form back when Heath discovered it even though Stellar Form is an aberration that occurs when Terapagos is exposed to too much Terastal energy. Like with the specifics of Calyrex vs. Eternatus, or Calyrex’s blue aura, I don’t necessarily need to know the answer to that, and I think it’s more fun to speculate.

(If anything, any disappointment I have with The Indigo Disk’s lore pertains Heath himself, because I feel like him being pictured with a Cyclizar — the Pokémon that the box mascots are Paradox versions of — and then the whole Phantom Memory thing were details that seemed to be more significant than they turned out to be.)

 

[R_N]

Cogita being immortal isn’t really the vague matter I’m referring to so much as why she is immortal. With AZ, for example, we know he was made immortal by his resurrection machine. That extraordinary, superhuman trait of AZ is given a definitive, comprehensible cause. With Cogita, though? It’s said she was assigned a mission to wait for the LA protagonist to appear — presumably by Arceus — but why was that necessary? And why her? And does her immortality persist after her mission is complete? Could she still be alive in the modern day, or was she eventually able/allowed to pass? All of that is left hanging in order to let her character maintain a sense of enigma.

Then you combine that with how she interacts with Volo (& possibly further Implications from how he seems to be projecting issues onto Giratina) and how the Celestica people just...don't seem to be around, and havent for a long time. Lots of little things brought up only in passing and mostly unsaid.
They love stuff like that.

I don’t really have any issues with how Terapagos was handled in The Indigo Disk. It has its own little points of intrigue that I’m fine with being left open-ended, like why it was in Stellar Form back when Heath discovered it even though Stellar Form is an aberration that occurs when Terapagos is exposed to too much Terastal energy. Like with the specifics of Calyrex vs. Eternatus, or Calyrex’s blue aura, I don’t necessarily need to know the answer to that, and I think it’s more fun to speculate.

(If anything, any disappointment I have with The Indigo Disk’s lore pertains Heath himself, because I feel like him being pictured with a Cyclizar — the Pokémon that the box mascots are Paradox versions of — and then the whole Phantom Memory thing were details that seemed to be more significant than they turned out to be.)

Personally my issues with Terapagos are
1. On a meta level, it feels odd for the titular indigo disk to be so...unrelated, to the indigo disk dlc. Especially since the games have started pushing the central legends to, if not outright having more personal story beats then at least having a a bit of meat about them. Kubfu may not have been super important but you got to run around with it, bonding, maybe using it in the main campaign, then tackle to fight Mustard who obviously as one who trains Kubfu has one himself at the tower to evolve into the "armor" before resolving the Klara/Avery plot. It's just some Pokemon at the end of the day but you go on a little (or longer, depending on when/how you play) journey with it and that's the textual point. But Terapagos is at the very end and you learn the important bits (respsonsible for the tera phenomenon) but like. Nothing else. It's more of a prop for Kieran's (and...uh...Briar,I guess) character development. & I really like Kieran and his arc and I think the Underdepths was a good endpoint for him but........the turtle.........
2. Related to that but I think Mysterious Implications are cool only when they are either just in the background enough to not be distracting, there's enough going on in the now to offset it, and perhaps if you pay attention you can start painting a picture of what was going on regardless. Calyrex's mysterious past is something you have to go out of your way to learn, the focus is on the now as you basically help a god maintain a foothold in the world with some goofs along the way and if you read that backstory you still have enough of an idea of the world to sort of piece things together*. Cogita's got a lot about her past as outlined above that raises questions, but it's off to the side and everyone has more important things to worry about; plus you get to see her talk about random normal stuff and occasionally other characters do too. Terapagos is just a bunch of Mysteries, sometimes lacking implications, in a part of the region that is already full of Mysteries that just have you point at them and go "wow! mysterious, right?"
Like, hey Terapagos is really wedged into that dias its in, there's cracks and everything. How mysterious!
It went berserk, but it did so in the past as well? How mysterious!
Heath found it despite being so far below everything else? How mysterious!
There's a lone, singular Paradox down there. How mysterious!
There's a crystal tree in a lake, we even put it in the trailer. How mysterious!
The bit about Terapagos in the Book turned out to be explicitly censored in publication. How mysteriokay this one probably wasn't meant as a mystery and I should probably stop now
But all we get is "The real treasure of area zero was this turtle" -> "Turtle mad" -> "Turtle pacified". You don't need to go down a checklist but I dunno. There had to be something. And there probably is something! But by design they decided about 90% of Area Zero -one of the biggest set pieces in the game that cosntantly draws your attention to it- needed to be Purposely Mysterious & Unstated and unfortunately the central pokemon responsible for Area Zero was part of that decision.



*Personally I like the implication that there was 2 Dynatrees and that as Calyrex's power waned it died and the tundra started creeping down to where the other Dynatree is; alternatively that the second Dynatree is the only thing keeping the tundra back from the part of the map..

 

[DrPumpkinz]

I'm not a big fan of most of EX Pokemon in TCGP. Not just because a lot of them are centralizingly strong, but also because most of them are boring. We've got...

Base card but bigger:

Base card but bigger and with a cheaper attack:

Gengar's kinda interesting in making its effect passive but it's still pretty much just base card but bigger.

You could swap out any of the above cards for their base forms and vice versa, and the deck's gameplan would be exactly the same, just with more or less effectiveness.

Marowak's pretty different but it's also just... dumb.

That leaves the legendary birds, Pikachu, and Wigglytuff as the only not-stupid EX cards that play appreciably differently from their regular counterparts. And even then, base Zapdos and Moltres are kinda bad, base Wigglytuff is just like a generic tanky Colorless card, and base Pikachu isn't really comparable. So the only card that actually stands out from its EX form is Articuno (and Raichu if want to measure it against Pikachu-EX, I guess).

Oh, and as I was writing this, Lapras-EX got released.

Its image isn't on Showdown yet, but it's pretty much Vaporeon with more health and damage but less healing. Lapras can hang with Articuno in the "well-designed EX and regular differences" club, it's cool.

 

[S.A.C. Martin]

I think it’s pretty clear that Crown Tundra and Isle of Armour were basically, in development terms, sandboxes added on to SW/SH, and SV as a whole continued from that development.

Both of the SV DLCs are larger and more developed than the SW/SH ones, it is unsurprising that they would be technically superior.

What connects the gen 8 and gen 9 games specifically is the development of that particular interpretation of the “open world” concept.

What has irritated me from the leaks is just how goddamn gorgeous SV and its DLCs would have been, were the switch able to sustain the original graphics package and the frame rate.

So this gives me hope for LZA and Gen 10, to be fair.

 

[R_N]

The switch is absolutely able to sustain quite a bit of beauty so I think that's less on The Switch and more on GameFreak and how they wound up building the game.

 

[S.A.C. Martin]

The switch is absolutely able to sustain quite a bit of beauty so I think that's less on The Switch and more on GameFreak and how they wound up building the game.

Fair point, I mean Xenoblade 1 though 3 probably prove that point well.

 

[Cobalt Empoleon]

Got annoyed when I started playing the fangame Emerald Seaglass because it introduces scaled experience while keeping trainer levels the same. When paired with the early-gen philosophy of having lots of trainers with low-level Pokemon, this makes the game feel noticeably more grindy than vanilla Emerald, even with the buffed Exp Share and catch experience. This might smooth out later on, but it's already compromised the speed and fluency of RSE Hoenn, which is one of my favourite things about the region.

 

[DrrT]

Game Freak’s chronic compulsion to make the third version Legendary a Dragon-type Pokémon.

Sorry to quote you so late but I forgot to adress this as an annoyance as well and for some reason I struggle lately to keep up with the forum. Here comes another wall of text of ovethinked stuff from yours truly:

This is seriously quite annoying even as a diehard Dragon type fan. I know big scary dragons are like, the default to go on a monster collecting game. But GF just seems like it can't let go of Rayquaza. Back then, the very concept of a third legendary was crazy, specially with Dragon type. I was too young to experience it but I assume it got the same reaction from when my primary school friends found out about Platinum and Giratina.

Giratina itself it's fine. They are a Dragon trio. Literal gods that control space and time, and Satan controlling antimatter. And Dragon was still a very big deal.

Kyurem...you could argue it's starting to get less special, but they were once literally a singly entity and they made it a dragon, it had to be done.

Zygarde starts to be a problem. You finally let go of dragon trios, but you still can't help yourself here. Okay, Nidhoggr is usually a serpent who could have been other types like Poison, but it's hard to argue Dragon Ground makes sense for it (and as I just said, I actually like it apparently can't do shit towards Xerneas and Yveltal). Still, is the same gen that tried hard to counter Dragon, yet they kept giving the type to powerful mons. Still, they could have gone fully in the cell aspect, is not luke it makes sense for our freaking Fenrir to be Dtagon...

Necrozma is fine! See it's an Ultrabeast, it looking as a dragon head if you rearrange it doesn't mean it follows the same order of our world- oh wait nevermind, he just needed light and to absorb other Psychic types to turn Dragon. Ultra Necrozma doesn't even look that much as a dragon if you ask me...

Eternatus is hard to judge. It's clearly not your standard third legendary, but depending on how you see it that's even worse: there was no way to fit a third Dragon with the wolf duo, so it's instead their mortal enemy. Again, it's also alien enough it could have been typed something else (kudos to giving us a Poison legendary tho)

SV don't have a third legendary, which...maybe it's a good sign? Sure the Raidons are dragons, but they restrained themselves enough ro not have a third member. But there is also absolutely no doubt in my mind that, if Terapagos didn't have its typing gimmick, they would have given it Dtagon somehow. I totally expect grn 10 to have a third dragon.

People often talk about "archetypes" in new gens, but I think this one gets kind of glossed over. Sure it isn't a Pikaclone, a regional mammal/bird/whatever, but that's even worse imho because they are supposed to be very special legendaries. Prior to DLC, you could even argue they are more important than the two box art coverts: it works as a teaser of the next version and as a secret encounter of sorts. And it's usually the most powerful of the trio. It means business. So we is it always a Dragon? Not even being from another dimension or planet stopped them.

Of course I don't think it limits their creativity, it's probably the opposite:" how are we going to get the dragon this time?" In my experience, creativity is at its best with a known limitator. But it has just gotten boring. It isn't exciting to me to guess the type of the new legendaries (which nowadays they still try to do in the TCG, even through the only time it made sense was the first one, with Solgaleo and Lunala no being revealed as evolutions) if I know the third one is Dragon-something

 

[S.A.C. Martin]

Consider Gen 1. Only 3 dragons out of 151 Pokemon. They were the smallest type group, one line out of dozens, giving one of the most powerful types in the game. By Gen 2, they only added one more (Kingdra). So there was still this element of exclusivity over the type.

Gen 3 introduced one three stage pseudo line, one at the end of a three stage line, and one at the end of a two stage line, and a legendary.

Fast forward to generation 9, there were 14 dragon type Pokemon added, including a trio of legendary/paradox Pokemon and a whole host of general to pseudo dragons.

In short: there’s too many new dragons this gen. I don’t know which I wouldn’t have had - probably Archaludon (did we really need it this gen?)

So overall, agree, but it’s not just too many dragon legendaries, its too many dragons period.

 

[Coronis]

Consider Gen 1. Only 3 dragons out of 151 Pokemon. They were the smallest type group, one line out of dozens, giving one of the most powerful types in the game. By Gen 2, they only added one more (Kingdra). So there was still this element of exclusivity over the type.

Gen 3 introduced one three stage pseudo line, one at the end of a three stage line, and one at the end of a two stage line, and a legendary.

Fast forward to generation 9, there were 14 dragon type Pokemon added, including a trio of legendary/paradox Pokemon and a whole host of general to pseudo dragons.

In short: there’s too many new dragons this gen. I don’t know which I wouldn’t have had - probably Archaludon (did we really need it this gen?)

So overall, agree, but it’s not just too many dragon legendaries, its too many dragons period.

Dragons r cool tho.

Maybe they should go back to dragon-like Pokemon with other types? e.g Charizard, Gyarados, Aerodactyl

 

[S.A.C. Martin]

Dragons r cool tho.

Maybe they should go back to dragon-like Pokemon with other types? e.g Charizard, Gyarados, Aerodactyl

They are, but part of their attraction was always rarity and power. Of late we have had an abundance.

I think some dragon like pokemon with other types would be interesting, for sure. I would love another take on Gyarados.

 

[R_N]

I think the moment they started doing normie, mid dragons the type ceased to have the attraction of "rarity" and only partially still have "power" and most of that's because it has no SE match ups so they tend to up the power level on the "important" ones.
I don't think 14 dragons -which was added across a base release + 2 DLCs over 2 years- is an overabundance at all. Heck that's only 5 more than Gen 3 (you forgot Vibrava is also a dragon, as well as Latias & Latios).

They're just "A Type" now.

 

[Yung Dramps]

I'm always stunned by how lame Origin Form Dialga & Palkia are mechanically. I genuinely really like their designs but swapping one stat each to be slightly more optimized and not changing their abilities? Seriously???? Literally what even happened here

 

[Worldie]

I'm always stunned by how lame Origin Form Dialga & Palkia are mechanically. I genuinely really like their designs but swapping one stat each to be slightly more optimized and not changing their abilities? Seriously???? Literally what even happened here

It's much more likely that "nothing" happened in fact.

As in, they made them mainly for Legend Arceus, which is fine as they fit what's happening in that game. Then someone reminded "oh btw we have to actually make those playable in the main games" and they couldn't come up with any fancy idea so just left them as stat swap and that's about it.
Yes yes I know everyone dreams of "Set Trick/Magic room on switch in" abilities, but let me be frank, Trick Room on swap in would be an ability so insanely busted in doubles that it would make Calyrex and Zacian look like fair pokemon, I am glad they didn't consider it (or considered and dropped it).

 

[R_N]

If they had their abilities changed it wouldn't be to any new signatures anyway. None of the Hisuian forms or new Pokemon got them.
It is a bit odd they didn't get any ability associated with them, for "parity" with Giratina-O having a different ability. But I guess getting to keep Pressure or Telepathy keeps them "distinct" anyway.


Personally I think SV should have kept the thing L:A did do where Roar of Time & Spacial Rend (& Shadow Force) had tweaked stats/effects & animations when used by their Origin forms.

 

[S.A.C. Martin]

I think the moment they started doing normie, mid dragons the type ceased to have the attraction of "rarity" and only partially still have "power" and most of that's because it has no SE match ups so they tend to up the power level on the "important" ones.
I don't think 14 dragons -which was added across a base release + 2 DLCs over 2 years- is an overabundance at all. Heck that's only 5 more than Gen 3 (you forgot Vibrava is also a dragon, as well as Latias & Latios).

They're just "A Type" now.

Yep, completely forgot about Vibrava and the Latis.

The Latis are fairly forgettable though, forgetting Vibrava when I am doing a Pokemon Ruby run on my Analogue Pocket AND ITS IN MY TEAM’S FIRST SLOT is verging on senility.

Sorry Vibrava!

I think you’re right that it’s “just a type” - but that to me is the mistake made by Game Freak tbh.

 

[Coronis]

Having one specific type have only strong and rare mons would just feel.. off to me.

 

[QuentinQuonce]

Having one specific type have only strong and rare mons would just feel.. off to me.

That was very much the original concept of what Dragon-types were in Gen I, though (according to Lance, who admittedly probably isn't the most unbiased source)

I think that unravelled pretty much instantly, though. Much as I love Kingdra it really doesn't scream "mythically sacred and powerful being" in the way Dragonite did/does.

 

[pika pal]

That was very much the original concept of what Dragon-types were in Gen I, though (according to Lance, who admittedly probably isn't the most unbiased source)

I think that unravelled pretty much instantly, though. Much as I love Kingdra it really doesn't scream "mythically sacred and powerful being" in the way Dragonite did/does.

It also should be remembered that Lance had many Draconic Pokemon, but the typing itself was exclusive to the Dragonite line in Gen 1. Since he notes them as tricky to catch and raise, I wonder if he just meant Dragon-like Pokemon, since Gyarados also fits that bill with Magikarp's schtick and its basis on the Waterfall legend.

Kingdra isn't presented as particularly powerful or hard to train by comparison, vs something like Larvitar (which Lance is depicted as owning in the GSC Manga chapter), so I feel like Lance is more talking about a theme than the literal typing.