Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4

arnimacarni said:
status quo is status quo bruv

i get ur point but dont be actin like you dont know that knowing where the threshold is skews the vote in a certain way

like 50% is one thing, but with 60% youre gonna get more undecided voters going ban
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Status quo has relegated this tier to mediocrity, based on survey results. “Status quo” is great if the sentiment is already positive. Not so great if it is mediocre or worse.

Avira said:
Personally, I would not decrease the ban threshold to 55%. With a 55% threshold, it means you only need the ban side to have 25% more voters than the do not ban side, which is not a strong consensus, the entire purpose of having a supermajority threshold in the first place. With a 60% ban threshold, you need 50% more ban voters than do not ban voters to ban something, and that's more of a strong consensus.
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As the poster above me pointed out, that is a arbitrary number.

Just to switch things up and elaborate, IMO the threshold should not be the same between a suspect of a critical game mechanic (I.e. Tera, dynamax, Z, etc) and Pokémon suspects. Banning a game mechanic should imo be the higher threshold since the goal of this whole experiment is close to simulated cartridge as competitively possible. For that, the 60% or even higher (66%? 75%?) makes total sense.

Pokémon suspects is where it falls apart. We’ve been keeping mons that most voters officially don’t want, and has put the tier in a perpetual state of “what do we tackle next?” with arduous progress. Status quo being “keep,” when they become a suspect due to player outrage is the backwards way to look at it IMO. If Kingambit for example, is #1 on the suspect meter, the goal should be to boot that mfer out. If most people want the problematic Pokémon gone, what are we protecting it for?
 
CooolTrainer said:
I think you’re misunderstanding me, that’s probably my fault. I don’t think it’s a godlike rebuttal at all. But that’s my point actually, the only non arbitrary number is 50%+1 and the answer as to why it’s not seems to be just because people agree it needs to be more. I was just curious about the reasoning. At the end of the day it’s not changing, it doesn’t matter that much, and the council has better things to focus on anyway.
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Because supermajority favours stability in the tier, and that's by design. It also prevents sampling errors. Not everybody who can get suspects will get them everytime, and if you use 50%+1, one month the result would be ban, the next month it would be not ban, and so forth, every time with a slim majority. What legitimacy would such tiering have? None, in my opinion.

Why should 40% of players hold the power on whether we ban a pokemon or not? Because we've decided you can't alter the tier with half the people, that's why, you need consensus to alter the status quo of OU.
 
We should probably talk about something else.

There's this Darkspam HO team featuring TR Reuniclus that peaked at #3 on ladder recently, and got posted on the RMT subforum last week : https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/peaked-3-1973-elo-reuniclus-darkspam-ho.3755013/#post-10346329

I like the idea of using TR to disrupt standard speedy HO teams in general, while enabling your own powerful bulky attacker (Kingambit here) against its common checks. It does sound tricky to play against, without overrelying on TR to the point of running too many slower mons or wanting TR up at all times.
On top of that, sets like Knock+Sucker Punch Darkrai and Booster SpA Modest IVal look very threatening to a lot of Balance/Bulky Balance teams, in terms of utility and immediate power. Even Reuniclus itself seems like it can put in sizeable damage in the lategame after its teammates did most of the dirty work.

What do you guys think about it?
 
SandVeil10 said:
We should probably talk about something else.

There's this Darkspam HO team featuring TR Reuniclus that peaked at #3 on ladder recently, and got posted on the RMT subforum last week : https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/peaked-3-1973-elo-reuniclus-darkspam-ho.3755013/#post-10346329

I like the idea of using TR to disrupt standard speedy HO teams in general, while enabling your own powerful bulky attacker (Kingambit here) against its common checks. It does sound tricky to play against, without overrelying on TR to the point of running too many slower mons or wanting TR up at all times.
On top of that, sets like Knock+Sucker Punch Darkrai and Booster SpA Modest IVal look very threatening to a lot of Balance/Bulky Balance teams, in terms of utility and immediate power. Even Reuniclus itself seems like it can put in sizeable damage in the lategame after its teammates did most of the dirty work.

What do you guys think about it?
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I will try tomorrow but I need to be sold on Knock Off Sucker Punch Darkrai. Compared to that, the Reuniclus looks standard
 
AerionT said:
Based on the replays I just saw, the team relies too much on the surprise factor. The weakness policy Kingambit, Tera Dark Sucker Punch Darkrai... I would figure that once you know the tricks, this team doesn't look as threatening on ladder
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I love the RMT of serperiorr and no hate to him but I'll be honest it's those "What is bro cooking? :skull:" if the team was on low ladder but "He has made some amazing innovations against the current meta trends!" Thing if the team was seen in high ladder"

(No offense and sorry if sounded rude serperrior ^^ you can ofend me on how I use tera ghost serperior with no fighting backups)
 
Faux Focalors Furina said:
I love the RMT of serperiorr and no hate to him but I'll be honest it's those "What is bro cooking? :skull:" if the team was on low ladder but "He has made some amazing innovations against the current meta trends!" Thing if the team was seen in high ladder"

(No offense and sorry if sounded rude serperrior ^^ you can ofend me on how I use tera ghost serperior with no fighting backups)
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AerionT said:
Based on the replays I just saw, the team relies too much on the surprise factor. The weakness policy Kingambit, Tera Dark Sucker Punch Darkrai... I would figure that once you know the tricks, this team doesn't look as threatening on ladder
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these r valid takes, surprise factor is a huge part of HO and which is why HO will never be the best archetype, but reun def is good enough (B- imo) to be considered on HO, don't necessarily need to use my team. Any public team is worse than private teams since ppl know the sets, if you still wanna use my reun team I suggest changing the sets e.g. gambit's item/tera, darkrai's set. But yeah :reuniclus: should be ranked higher on the VR, it has irreplicable qualities
 
serperiorr said:
these r valid takes, surprise factor is a huge part of HO and which is why HO will never be the best archetype, but reun def is good enough (B- imo) to be considered on HO, don't necessarily need to use my team. Any public team is worse than private teams since ppl know the sets, if you still wanna use my reun team I suggest changing the sets e.g. gambit's item/tera, darkrai's set. But yeah :reuniclus: should be ranked higher on the VR, it has irreplicable qualities
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I agree, the Reu was very oppressive and the least reliant on surprise imo. Just like Trick Room Guts Ursaluna. Yes, you know what it's going to do, but that won't stop it from OHKOing your mon with Facade
 
Looking at the VR slates posted by the VR team, I've noticed that lokix is ranked at the very worst at A- in all of the ones posted so far. What causes this rather meteoric rise, and what sets are people using? I can't imagine it being band, it's such a momentum sink and very hazard weak. Also Clef is at B rank in most of them, which isn't too surprising because it's stats are just not that great anymore, but it's been used quite a lot in OUPL, more than I'd expect something with a B viability to be used. Is there something I'm missing?
 
Casteliacone said:
Looking at the VR slates posted by the VR team, I've noticed that lokix is ranked at the very worst at A- in all of the ones posted so far. What causes this rather meteoric rise, and what sets are people using? I can't imagine it being band, it's such a momentum sink and very hazard weak. Also Clef is at B rank in most of them, which isn't too surprising because it's stats are just not that great anymore, but it's been used quite a lot in OUPL, more than I'd expect something with a B viability to be used. Is there something I'm missing?
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Havent played since the Gliscor Suspect, but if Lokix is high, there can only be one reason: The meta is extremely offensivs. Lokix is a Mon that ignores the resistances, but doesnt hit strong enough outside an item and Tera boosted First Impression. Therefore, its strong enough to revenge kill almost all offensive threats, but any bulky Mon (Corv, Moltres, Dondozo, even Zapdos) easily eats anything Lokix throws at it (though some of them dont apreciate the Knock) . If bulky teams are bad and offensive frail teams (this includes weather, for example my team during Suspect was a Rain) are good, Lokix stonks go up.
 
Eeveeto said:
Havent played since the Gliscor Suspect, but if Lokix is high, there can only be one reason: The meta is extremely offensivs. Lokix is a Mon that ignores the resistances, but doesnt hit strong enough outside an item and Tera boosted First Impression. Therefore, its strong enough to revenge kill almost all offensive threats, but any bulky Mon (Corv, Moltres, Dondozo, even Zapdos) easily eats anything Lokix throws at it (though some of them dont apreciate the Knock) . If bulky teams are bad and offensive frail teams (this includes weather, for example my team during Suspect was a Rain) are good, Lokix stonks go up.
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It also helps that even if Lokix isn’t doing that much damage to Defensive/bulkier Pokémon, it still has Tinted Lens boosted STAB on two of the game’s safest and most spammable moves in U-Turn and Knock Off. Leech Life’s also a nice bonus for improving its longevity a bit. Making progress with it is pretty easy when the chunks of unresisted damage it’s doing is being combined with either pivoting or item removal.

Of course Meowscarada also has STAB U-Turn and Knock Off through Protean at its disposal with higher damage and Speed, but resists like Rocky Helmet Corv / Zama / Kingambit can take advantage of it easier and the only priority it has on hand is Sucker Punch which can be mind-gamed. The extra chip Tinted Lens allows you to do along with nearly unresisted First Impression being a scary Priority STAB move can be pretty valuable.
 
RaikouLover said:
You just said it; the tier should reflect the will of the voters. 55% is a clear, “non controversial” majority. 58% (Kyurem) 56% (Gliscor) even more so. 58-42 is not a close result. It is a travesty that 40 something minority keeps winning, just as they have been all generation. And it’s been consistently showing up in the mediocre survey ratings.

I’m curious how often this mythical 50.1%-49.9%, 1-2 vote tiering result has actually happened. We’ve failed to ban a helluva lot more shit that a clear majority of voters wanted out of the tier.
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This tier would be hot garbage without Gliscor, the "ban" voters were acting not out of interest to the metagame but out of interest in their own patience and personal grievances. Supermajorities punish people being reactive and promote intelligent analysis.
 
ianlazerbeem said:
This tier would be hot garbage without Gliscor, the "ban" voters were acting not out of interest to the metagame but out of interest in their own patience and personal grievances. Supermajorities punish people being reactive and promote intelligent analysis.
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Nah, supermajorities allow people with a minority opinion (exhibit A) to claim a faux high ground victory when they are contrary to overall public sentiment. Gliscor is a cancerous piece of garbage that should be booted out of the tier; an opinion shared by 56% of qualified voters.
 
To celebrate goatscor not being banned, heres a early draft for a devious team i’m cooking up
:gliscor:
Gliscor @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 252 HP / 168 SpD / 88 Spe
Careful Nature
- Earthquake
- Protect
- Toxic
- Spikes
:Clefable:
Clefable @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Guard
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Moonblast
- Moonlight
- Knock Off
:Gholdengo:
Gholdengo @ Air Balloon
Ability: Good as Gold
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 HP / 196 Def / 60 Spe
Bold Nature
- Hex
- Thunder Wave
- Recover
- Make It Rain

:Roaring moon:
Roaring Moon @ Booster Energy
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Flying
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Knock Off
- Acrobatics
- Earthquake
:Iron moth:
Iron Moth @ Booster Energy
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 124 Def / 132 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Fiery Dance
- Sludge Wave
- Dazzling Gleam
- Substitute
:Hydrapple:
Hydrapple @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Regenerator
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 HP / 36 Def / 220 SpA
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fickle Beam
- Leaf Storm
- Nasty Plot
- Earth Power
 
JackRG said:
Serious question, why has disabling freeze proc on moves like ice beam never been looked at? Yes, removing it would technically go against game mechanics, but I truthfully don't see any downside to just removing the freeze chance from moves that can inflict it?
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Stop me if you've heard this one; It should as close to replicable on cart as possible. Sleep clause was changed to a sleep ban and part of that was for this reason
 
Cyber-DJ said:
Stop me if you've heard this one; It should as close to replicable on cart as possible. Sleep clause was changed to a sleep ban and part of that was for this reason
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I understand that argument but truthfully, I don't see any benefit to keeping a mechanic that is objectively uncompetitive when it adds nothing of actual value to the metagame. imo the sleep stuff already opened the flood gates so we should just get rid of it for the sake of competition
 
AerionT said:
So hey, serious question. I know that it would technically go against game mechanics, but it's really a bummer when the Draco Meteor fails, so can we change the accuracy to 100%? And what about High Horsepower, wtf, why does it miss? Make it 100% smogon pleaaaaaase.
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You literally missed the entire point. Theres a big difference between 1 miss and something that can quite literally instantly lose you the game. Also doesn’t this same logic literally apply to the sleep ban?
 
JackRG said:
You literally missed the entire point. Theres a big difference between 1 miss and something that can quite literally instantly lose you the game. Also doesn’t this same logic literally apply to the sleep ban?
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No. And I'm not interested in explaining why to you for obvious reasons.
 
JackRG said:
Lets say mixed dd kyurem freezes you lol. That means you instantly lose the game. Do you think that is competitive?
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Nope. It’s happened in my favor a couple times since I started using Kyurem. You get a freeze early or mid-game and things can get out of hand quickly. A freeze is essentially a free kill. And if your team has no fire moves they can bait they are done. Scald’s lack of distribution this Gen makes freeze even more cheap.
 
From the tiering policy framework:

"We play, to the best of our simulator's capabilities, with the mechanics given to us on the cartridge.
Some exceptions exist, such Sleep Clause and Freeze Clause (RBY / GSC), but they are to be avoided as much as possible.
Suggestions to "remove critical hits" or "make Baton Pass fail in battle" are not valid tiering proposals."

Freeze is really not a problem, the only very relevant freezers are Darkrai and Kyurem. We have autothaw moves, ice types + a few mons that can run ice tera like clef, lum berry, positioning better to improve offs (especially against Kyurem, this is also one of the most important skills in mons in general), while the odds of getting frozen are very low especially if your mon is slower because you get a roll to thaw immediately, freeze is not at all a problem even as someone who's very anti-rng.
 
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