OU BW OU Hub

[Gypsy]

Was going through BW Cup statistics thought people would be interested to see some stuff I came across, not gonna go into too much detail but might make a video- if there's any combos or specific mons people would be interested in lmk and I can post more. This is data from every replay round 2 onwards throughout the tournament, might be interesting to see what the difference is in the later rounds though.

Overall usage + Combos of 2 - https://pokepast.es/f8ea223ec860ff8e

No surprise seeing Latios and Ttar so high, but a couple things that stood out to me were:

-Jirachi 5th in usage
-Conkeldurr 62% winrate
-Clefable #32 most used pokemon with 81% winrate
Obviously there's a lot of other stuff that could be dug into but those caught my eye, admittedly haven't dived deep- just been messing around looking at stuff after I realised you can dump tournament threads in here and it extracts all the replays: https://fulllifegames.com/Tools/ReplayScouter/#/tournaments

Here's some combinations and some pokemon on their own's stats:

Conkeldurr + Volcarona usage & winrate

Tyranitar + Alakazam usage & winrate

Landorus-Therian + Tyranitar usage & winrate

Politoed + Ferrothorn usage & winrate

Hippowdon + Clefable usage & winrate

Starmie + Dragonite + Jirachi usage & winrate

Volcarona usage & winrate

Conkeldurr usage & winrate

Alakazam usage & winrate

Thundurus-Therian usage & winrate

It goes without saying the quality of this data might not be the best, but that's the entirety of BW Cup so far. For higher quality data it's likely well worth just doing round 4 onwards or something, but I found it interesting and I thought others may too.

 

[dice]

what does it actually mean to be anti-meta in a tier where everything already feels cracked? here’s my latest attempt: peaked #1 and maybe even glugged you on ladder.

:hippowdon: :xatu: :gliscor: :slowking: :ferrothorn: :weavile:

I started refining this during BWLT, when ladder teams leaned hard into “sample-y” builds. that shift made sands and rains more predictable. both lean massively on Ferrothorn to force chip and progress. corollary: if Ferro is king, Xatu suddenly has real utility. Xatu makes people play reactively, forcing awkward lines, and in balance mirrors it gives you a nasty trump card.

of course, Xatu’s big problem is the ground rockers. :landorus-therian: doesn’t mind it. :gliscor: can pivot and annoy. :garchomp: can lead, force a kill, and grab momentum. enter Weavile. the Pokemon everyone loves to talk about but never use, especially since LO Zam became standard. Weavile pressures grounds in ways that synergizes perfectly with Xatu, while also making sure my wincon isn’t stonewalled by stray ghosts. this game, for example, highlights how Weavile can force pressure into these sorts of comps.

Slowking gets a lot of uncessary flak. without hazards on the field, he's pretty annoying to go against. mixed bulk lets it take quirky aggressive lines, spread status, and hard-check Keldeo + Conk. it’s the glue that helps enables Gliscor to go nuclear.

and the Gliscor set is absolutely busted. it drops the traditional defensive role entirely. no EQ, so you’re not checking Drill or Terrak, but SubTect + SD + Facade with para + spikes backing it is incredibly snowbally. once you get it rolling, it turns balance into a snack and you are just granted very easy wins.

and I mean, Ferrothorn and Hippowdon are Ferrothorn and Hippowdon.

you may notice the lack of a scarf. Weavile makes that serviceable, cleaning up speed control duties with Ice Shard. it wasn’t planned, but it ended up a strength.

point is: no matter how “solved” BW feels, there’s always room to push edges and re-invent archetypes. it takes theory, testing, refinement, and a bit of luck, but the results can speak for themselves. appreciate everyone who took the trolling in stride. hope this sparks some ideas. keep cooking, gamers.

 

[BLJ mario]

my goat dice, coming out of retirement to drop a banger team comp and some motivational words and vanish back into the darkness

 

[EG Jhonx~]

Once I arrive home will do a team dump I did during 4 Ladder Tour cycles, while I did give up cuz insane hax I managed to get 1650 lot of times without too much difficult, also will do a metagame explanation and what stuff its rly good atm

 

[EG Jhonx~]

what does it actually mean to be anti-meta in a tier where everything already feels cracked? here’s my latest attempt: peaked #1 and maybe even glugged you on ladder.

:hippowdon: :xatu: :gliscor: :slowking: :ferrothorn: :weavile:

I started refining this during BWLT, when ladder teams leaned hard into “sample-y” builds. that shift made sands and rains more predictable. both lean massively on Ferrothorn to force chip and progress. corollary: if Ferro is king, Xatu suddenly has real utility. Xatu makes people play reactively, forcing awkward lines, and in balance mirrors it gives you a nasty trump card.

of course, Xatu’s big problem is the ground rockers. :landorus-therian: doesn’t mind it. :gliscor: can pivot and annoy. :garchomp: can lead, force a kill, and grab momentum. enter Weavile. the Pokemon everyone loves to talk about but never use, especially since LO Zam became standard. Weavile pressures grounds in ways that synergizes perfectly with Xatu, while also making sure my wincon isn’t stonewalled by stray ghosts. this game, for example, highlights how Weavile can force pressure into these sorts of comps.

Slowking gets a lot of uncessary flak. without hazards on the field, he's pretty annoying to go against. mixed bulk lets it take quirky aggressive lines, spread status, and hard-check Keldeo + Conk. it’s the glue that helps enables Gliscor to go nuclear.

and the Gliscor set is absolutely busted. it drops the traditional defensive role entirely. no EQ, so you’re not checking Drill or Terrak, but SubTect + SD + Facade with para + spikes backing it is incredibly snowbally. once you get it rolling, it turns balance into a snack and you are just granted very easy wins.

and I mean, Ferrothorn and Hippowdon are Ferrothorn and Hippowdon.

you may notice the lack of a scarf. Weavile makes that serviceable, cleaning up speed control duties with Ice Shard. it wasn’t planned, but it ended up a strength.

point is: no matter how “solved” BW feels, there’s always room to push edges and re-invent archetypes. it takes theory, testing, refinement, and a bit of luck, but the results can speak for themselves. appreciate everyone who took the trolling in stride. hope this sparks some ideas. keep cooking, gamers.

Click to collapse...

I played agaisnt u lot of times, if im not wrong we played 6 games and we ended 3-3 but only cuz i had specific sets that counter that team (Keldeo Lum CM 3atk and other shit), insanely good team in skilled hands. Also I stole ur 6 and made my version, peaked 1670 without lose from 1420, good team

 

[Cow]

Once I arrive home will do a team dump I did during 4 Ladder Tour cycles, while I did give up cuz insane hax I managed to get 1650 lot of times without too much difficult, also will do a metagame explanation and what stuff its rly good atm

Click to collapse...

the community is on the edge of their seats awaiting your return home

 

[EG Jhonx~]

the community is on the edge of their seats awaiting your return home

Click to collapse...

LOL FORGOT NOW ILL SHARE SOME PBIN WHILE I ARRIVE HOME TO DO A POST W SPRITES AND STUFF

 

[EG Jhonx~]

While I was playing BWLT I tried a lot of stuff but dropping pastes of the most interesting ones for the moment, I revived Stall in all its power and shine, BW Stall its fucking strong at the moment, but for play Stall correctly u must play at perfect master skill Offense first otherwise its easy to get broke by a well played Offensive pressure

Hail Stall - EG Jhonx (played by Sugarhigh, Mix, Rewer and EG Jhonx)

https://pokepast.es/80f70c506d79e80a

Abomasnow Scarf its probably the best Aboma set on Stall and Offense probably because it lures Keldeo, Rotom-W, deletes Sand fast, lead LandoT most times stays since they dont die to Ice Shard so u kill w fast Blizzard, SubRoost Kyurem PP Stall a lot of stuff and hits hard af, Heatran put SR and ToxTect Stall, u could play Speed maybe for some stuff but u want Sdef for tank Latios and Latias and few stuff like Zam and ThundT, Forretress Phys Def Overcoat to tank Terrakion and EQs from Lando Exca while Spinning, dual Spikes needed to put pressure specially Toxic Spikes, u could swap Gyro Ball for Earthquake but Gyro Ball its better for me, Jellicent act as Spinblock and must be Sdef nature to wall Zam Latis Keldeo and a lot of things with NightShade so Keldeo Sub dont wall, and Gliscor Phys Def w that speed for 243 Speed mons, the Def nature w that spread prevents CB Terrakion StoneEdge 2HKO, I had Substitute over Knock Off but Sub was too MU fish for Raiza and Rewer and Knock Off is more useful to remove Leftovers and Air Balloon helping Gliscor hit EQ to targets and Knock removes Lefties allowing Hail and Toxic Spam be more effective, this Stall its a masterpiece and all players who ran this were kinda undefeated when using this.

Hail Offense - EG Jhonx

https://pokepast.es/3accb90aeea291f9

Aboma Scarf for the reasons told above, KyuB Sub3atk to break easier through anything, LandoT Scarf Superpower to break Ferrothorn Exca TerrakionAirBalloon and Ttar, Exca Shuca MoldBreaker to hit RotomW and 1v1 Scarf Sand Force Exca cuz MoldBreaker nullify SandForce and Shuca let u tank EQ so u kill back, also Shuca let u spin in emergency spots, Slowking acts as Latios Keldeo pivot with that moveset to remove Steels and Conkeldurr while Zam act as soft emergency remover and sweeper

Terrakion Rain - EG Jhonx & EG PkmTrainerBlue-

https://pokepast.es/b2521acbc3e6baaf

Bisharp Rain - EG Jhonx

https://pokepast.es/22e5b82aee37f71b

Tomorrow will upload more.

 

[peng]

just a public service announcement, nobody should be leaving landot in on abomasnow t1 when snow warning goes ahead of intimidate

 

[EG Jhonx~]

just a public service announcement, nobody should be leaving landot in on abomasnow t1 when snow warning goes ahead of intimidate

Click to collapse...

People not aware of that, so just abuse of it ;)

 

[Cow]

Since my team is out of BWPL, I wanted to share some teams I have used this season. I built quite a bit this season, not specifcally for BWPL but just in general I had that itch to build and felt like I came out with a few interesting teams.

First week vs Fakee. I looked at the scout for like 5 minutes and decided I wanted to use either a Clefable fat structure or some variant of the Rotom-Wash psyspam thats become popular recently. Then it hit me you can literally just use both Pokemon together. How cool. Originally, I was going to use Mew and Excadrill in the Alakazam and Skarmory slots and the Latias was going to be a bulky win condition with Calm Mind, before I realised that actually sucks. The other idea I had with that was using Nasty Plot Mew which probably would have been decent but thats a bit slow, and Mew just becomes a Scarf U-Turn bot especially when that version of the 6 has no good Rocky Helmet users. (Turns out that Hippowdon really enjoys Leftovers who would have thought that). Landed on this 6 after a few minutes of messing around and realised it's indentical to the one Finchinator in SPL. Rotom and Clefable together is pretty interesting, being able to trade moveslots, freeing up one for the other. On this 6, my idea was using Rotom with Thunder-Wave to free up Clefable to use Encore which allows it to more directly check Reuniclus. Only problem with that is that Encore has 8 PP, however Encore can also be used vs threats such as Nasty Plot Celebi and Power Herb Kyurem-Black which usually tends to go for the Substitute on the first turn to avoid taking Status. I opted for a normal Colbur Latias over the Rocky Helmet set Finchinator used because that set is actually horrid. Clefable is a Psychic, you do not need to use Helmet Latias, Clefable, and Alakazam to beat a Tyranitar. I agree after my game that Hippowdon probably does want Ice Fang>Whirlwind/Rock Slide because Gliscor is very frustrating to fight, even with Ice Alakazam and Skarmory and it gets so many free entries on Clefable and Hippowdon but live and learn.

Paste - https://pokepast.es/b5e6324df491064f

Week Three since I was unable to play week 2 due to my opponnents being scared, however this team was used week 2 by my team mate. I wanted to use Hyper Offence, since my scout has virtually no Hyper Offence usage. Orignally was going to just use Volcarona + Conkeldurr and be done with it, but thats super boring. Also Volcarona sucks like quite a lot. So I put a Scizor in the Volcarona slot on a pretty known 6 and yeah works. Latios is garbage on these to be honest, Latias at least offers some sort of utility with Healing Wish but double Healing Wish is so overkill. I gave Latios Psychic because Conkeldurr has to be respected, and a Lum Berry to make some early sequences vs Rain easier. Quick Attack Scizor for Rain matchup because Rain into modern Rain teams with Scarf Keldeo sucks. This week was a Scizor Hyper Offence mirror so a lot of subjective turns which I managed to get right that week and I won. (If you use this team and you lose to Scarf Jirachi make your Jirachi 311 Speed)

Paste - https://pokepast.es/a7c0899eea23ffcf

As you can tell, this is not Week 2. So why is this team here. What I was going to use Week 2 before I was unable to play was this Aerodactyl Hyper Offence team. I built this end of Week One, not indented into a scout but just because I wanted to build something with Aerodactyl and already planned to bring it no matter who I was going to face. I hate Aerodactyl without Sword Dance Garchomp, because in my opinion the only reason you should really use this Pokemon is to free Garchomp to use something fancy like Fire Fang, Aqua Tail, or Substitute, but thinking more about Hyper Offence as an archetype in general, it really thrives on playing fast, keeping momentum and forcing progress by beating down shared checks. The core of this I posted in my channel was Helmet Aerodactyl, Breloom and Choice Scarf Jirachi. Main idea was to force really easy sequences vs Rain by leading Aerodactyl into Politoed, Stealth Rocks, Breloom and click nuke. Jirachi on the Latios and U-Turn or force damage on the Thundurus for Dragonite or Scizor to pick off late game. The rest of the team pretty much filled itself. Starmie to Rapid Spin, Dragonite as Keldeo check and Physical beatdown, Scizor as the Ferrothorn pressure + more Physical beatdown and another anti Rain tool with Quick Attack. Quickly realised that Helmet Aerodactyl sucks without having a Kyurem-Black to punish Starmie so I went with Focus Sash to Double Edge into Jirachi U-Turn to keep Stealth Rock up in the Hyper Offence mirror. Breloom is Yache Berry to snipe Starmie's trying to Ice Beam it, and Landorus and Thundurus Hidden Power Ice. In some scenarios you can get a turn of set up where you most likely wouldn't otherwise though the lack of power is certainley noticable. Ended up using this team week 6 vs Monai in the best of three slot and it won but the game was pretty messy to say the least. Teams cool though.

(Edit here, Starmie is Psychic because Conkeldurr is annoying as fuck. Yes that does mean this team gets stomped on by most Jellicent teams, but if you are vs Jellicent in the big 25 then you're opponnent is probably very bad so you win anyways)

Paste - https://pokepast.es/1d3eedf47f079dce

This teams so bad I had to load up Smogtours just to get a screenshot of the team because it wasn't even in my main builder. I wanted to use U-Turn Gliscor + Substitute Keldeo and for some reason thought that Rain would get the most out of this core. The team to its due does have some interesting synergy, with Gliscor and Celebi absorbing Status for Ferrothorn allowing it to use Leftovers, Ferrothorn being able to run Worry Seed as a 4th move to avoid a Magnezone trap and then switch into Gliscor (In Rain Magnezone can't do anything to Ferrothorn) but thats about where it ends. Choice Scarf Politoed here because the team is pretty slow and run over by Dragonite and Alakazam if you're not Scarf. I probably should not admit this but the Celebi was Calm Mind because I wanted a way of sitting on Thundurus while also setting up and having something that can win me the game. This team is complete dogshit, mono lose to Ferrothorn and should never see the light of day.

Paste - https://pokepast.es/2845a413bcc72bf7

FCPL? Yeah I reused a team from another side tour in BWPL in the same week, but the teams fire and it did get used so it's here. Very basic Alakazam Psyspam, with a Skamory in the Ferrothorn slot and a Latias in the Latios slot. Choice Specs Latias over Latios because extra bulk is good, especially when your Keldeo checks otherwise are Rotom and sacking something to get Alakazam in. Choice Scarf Landorus checks Alakazam 99 percent of the time (the one percent being you sent it out as your opp clicked ice and owned the shit out of you) so I went Custap Berry on Tyranitar because that Pokemon is broken. Stealth Rock on Tyranitar sucks but it does its job, not as horrible as people make it out to be. Just dont be an idiot and click Stealth Rock on Ground Types not named Gliscor and you'll be fine. Hidden Power Fire Rotom to break Ferrothorn for Specs Latias and Choice Scarf Landorus so it can spam U-Turn freely. This team is soft into Fat, since Sash Alakazam and not Life Orb, but you need Focus Sash to beat Volcarona and most Hyper Offences at that and Hyper Offence is a lot more common than Fat.

Paste - https://pokepast.es/831ed4a1ce4b63c9

Final thoughts - Volcarona sucks, should be banned. But Life Orb Alakazam would be insanely broken if we banned it so keep. Best of three BW is probably the worst format on the site since its just matchup fish central. Tier's in a good spot right now stop bringing garbage.

 

[LuckOverSkill]

Since the redacted tournament is over for me I want to share some of my favorite teams I used to grab a respectable top 8 finish. After I got knocked to the lower bracket in round 2 I decided to ignore almost all teambuilding conventions and to run stuff that I felt was truly mine. Something I know I can win with if I play better than my opponent.

Did it work? I'd say yes, quite nicely in fact. Would have I done equally well or even better with more normal looking teams? Hard to tell. Maybe? But I'd have enjoyed myself way less.

Also pardon me for the Cresselia spam, I just love that mon so much, it opens up teambuilding in unlimited ways.

Weatherless Suicune
:cresselia: :suicune: :blissey: :starmie: :ditto: :gliscor:

Team in action

Basic Suicune team, wins by turning Suicune into an unstoppable juggernaut. Dual weather reset with a lot of Tyranitar baits and the strongest revenge killer in the game make this team surprisingly functional.

I'm not sure I'd run this again, I feel like it has way too many blind spots. Also unsure how I'd fix it, I'd rather rebuild it from scratch.

Sun Trick Room
:ninetales: :conkeldurr: :cresselia: :heatran: :slowking: :donphan:

Team in action

I wanted to experiment with Heatran and ended up with this team. Two sturdy Trick Room setters give solid support to the two main sweepers on the team. Specs Flash Cannon is surprisingly useful to punish certain team structures, think like Tyranitar Landorus-Therian Latios kind of structures who only have a Ferrothorn or Rotom-Wash as serious Steel resists, neither of which wants to swap into Heatran with Trick Room up.

Your 4th move beyond Eruption, Flash Cannon, and secondary STAB move is extra luxury; you're probably not going to click it in the vast majority of games. You can run anything on there.

If I were to play this team again I'd probably swap out Ice Beam for Lunar Dance on Cresselia, but this is what I used in the tournament. I run Fire Punch on Conkeldurr because it 2HKOs Reuniclus in Sun, but you run Mach Punch instead. The Slowking set also probably could be better, or you could run a different Pokémon in there, perhaps Trick Room Healing Wish Celebi?

SubDD Dragonite Weatherless
:cresselia: :starmie: :weavile: :dragonite: :magnezone: :jirachi:

Team in action

Note: I did not actually have this saved anywhere, this is a recreation I made by watching the replay and trying to remember what I used.

I wanted to run dishonest Dragonite. Spreading paralysis and Magnezone seemed the obvious ways to support it. Weavile removes Jellicent to guarantee a Starmie spin.

Again, dual weather reset because Sand is really annoying. Weavile has aerial ace as a last resort for Keldeo, and Low Kick is hardly necessary with Magnezone. I'm not convinced Jirachi had both U-Turn and Body Slam, it feels overkill. I'd probably consider a different set on here.

SubPass Vaporeon Rain
:politoed: :vaporeon: :donphan: :thundurus-therian: :keldeo: :ferrothorn:

Team in action

I always thought Vaporeon was an underexplored Pokémon, and that we spammed Celebi as SubPasser for so long we collectively forgot there's more ways to run the style. I also wanted to run a Rain team since I hardly do nowadays.

Baton Passing a Substitute to Thundurus-T is obviously the ideal way to open up the game. I dropped Focus Blast because I refuse to click that move except under extreme circumstances. Thundurus-T does not fit into my idea of extreme circumstances.

Why Donphan? Starmie would have meant running a 4th Water type, Tentacruel would be too slow for this style of team. Excadrill would have made me way too weak to something like Terrakion. So Donphan it is.

I'd drop Ice Shard from Donphan though. Toxic is probably the best move here, but I can see Knock Off work well.

Weavile + Magnezone Weatherless
:seismitoad: :cresselia: :forretress: :weavile: :magnezone: :garchomp:

Team in action

Yup, another Cresselia squad. I'm not obsessed or anything, I promise. Haha.

This team preys on many Latios + Alakazam builds thanks to Weavile, and has good anti-HO tools as well in ScarfChomp + Cresselia. Magnezone offers extra offensive coverage for Garchomp, and Seismitoad stops a lot of annoying Pokémon while giving me Stealth Rock and pairing well with Zone / Weavile. Forretress gives me Spikes and appreciates Weavile's Ghost−removal prowess.

I'd change Forretress to Gyro Ball + Earthquake here if I were to play this again.

 

[bdt2002]

Hello, BW OU community. It’s been a long time since I’ve posted something here, but I have a question I was hoping to get a more educated opinion on. Only thing is, I have no idea where would be most appropriate place to ask this question, so I do apologize in advance if this isn’t the right place.

So, here’s what I’m looking into, right. Imagine you’re in a Gen 5 OU match and you and your opponent both have a Garchomp in team preview. Theoretically this interaction could happen with other Pokémon too but I feel like Garchomp would be the most common to see this with in the current meta. Later in the game, you realize both Garchomp are Choice Scarf, and you know this because the opponent’s Garchomp just revealed its Speed tier and KOed one of your Pokémon with Outrage. This is where your own Scarf Garchomp comes into play. You, the player, know 252+ Scarf Garchomp clocks in at… is it 499 or 500 Speed? Pokémon’s rounding system is weird. Anyways, the important part is, you know the opponent’s Garchomp is locked into Outrage and, should you send in your own Garchomp now, you could hypothetically try and win the speed tie because whoever loses this speed tie is going to get KOed by the opposing Outrage. Let’s also assume for good measure that you don’t have a healthy enough bulky Steel-Type in the back that could help- your Garchomp is likely the only path to victory for you.

My question is twofold. For one, is this Speed tie gamble worth the risk? Because it should be a 50/50, right? Expect, I’m not so sure it is, because this exact scenario happened to be in a battle some time ago and I still can’t find an answer to this next part. The thing is… I’m not so sure that’s actually a true Speed tie. In my battle I won the “speed tie”, but I theorized that, because the game still treats the opposing Garchomp’s Outrage as using the same move, my own Outrage should theoretically win the speed tie every single time because the opponent is still committed to the same attack even though the turn number has increased by one and my Garchomp hasn’t attacked yet after switching in.

There’s a chance this whole interaction really is just a 50/50 and my hypothesis was wrong, but like I said, I can’t seem to find an answer to this. So, I come to you. Hopefully I painted a good enough picture of the situation for you; assuming my hypothesis was right this whole time, that completely changes how Scarf Garchomp and other “Outrage mirrors” could be handled from now on. What this would mean, again, in theory, is that if the opponent still has their own Garchomp in team preview whose set has not been revealed yet, clicking Outrage to claim a KO on one of their Pokémon might actually be a bad thing, in addition to keeping both their own Garchomp and their obligatory bulky Steel-Type fully healthy as opposed to having to eat a chunk of resisted damage and risk switch disadvantage should you roll a 2 turn Outrage (I would imagine you’d switch to a Steel counter on Turn 3) instead of a 3 turn Outrage. So, what’s the verdict? Is this whole thing actually a thing, or am I just going completely nuts?

 

[Cow]

Hello, BW OU community. It’s been a long time since I’ve posted something here, but I have a question I was hoping to get a more educated opinion on. Only thing is, I have no idea where would be most appropriate place to ask this question, so I do apologize in advance if this isn’t the right place.

So, here’s what I’m looking into, right. Imagine you’re in a Gen 5 OU match and you and your opponent both have a Garchomp in team preview. Theoretically this interaction could happen with other Pokémon too but I feel like Garchomp would be the most common to see this with in the current meta. Later in the game, you realize both Garchomp are Choice Scarf, and you know this because the opponent’s Garchomp just revealed its Speed tier and KOed one of your Pokémon with Outrage. This is where your own Scarf Garchomp comes into play. You, the player, know 252+ Scarf Garchomp clocks in at… is it 499 or 500 Speed? Pokémon’s rounding system is weird. Anyways, the important part is, you know the opponent’s Garchomp is locked into Outrage and, should you send in your own Garchomp now, you could hypothetically try and win the speed tie because whoever loses this speed tie is going to get KOed by the opposing Outrage. Let’s also assume for good measure that you don’t have a healthy enough bulky Steel-Type in the back that could help- your Garchomp is likely the only path to victory for you.

My question is twofold. For one, is this Speed tie gamble worth the risk? Because it should be a 50/50, right? Expect, I’m not so sure it is, because this exact scenario happened to be in a battle some time ago and I still can’t find an answer to this next part. The thing is… I’m not so sure that’s actually a true Speed tie. In my battle I won the “speed tie”, but I theorized that, because the game still treats the opposing Garchomp’s Outrage as using the same move, my own Outrage should theoretically win the speed tie every single time because the opponent is still committed to the same attack even though the turn number has increased by one and my Garchomp hasn’t attacked yet after switching in.

There’s a chance this whole interaction really is just a 50/50 and my hypothesis was wrong, but like I said, I can’t seem to find an answer to this. So, I come to you. Hopefully I painted a good enough picture of the situation for you; assuming my hypothesis was right this whole time, that completely changes how Scarf Garchomp and other “Outrage mirrors” could be handled from now on. What this would mean, again, in theory, is that if the opponent still has their own Garchomp in team preview whose set has not been revealed yet, clicking Outrage to claim a KO on one of their Pokémon might actually be a bad thing, in addition to keeping both their own Garchomp and their obligatory bulky Steel-Type fully healthy as opposed to having to eat a chunk of resisted damage and risk switch disadvantage should you roll a 2 turn Outrage (I would imagine you’d switch to a Steel counter on Turn 3) instead of a 3 turn Outrage. So, what’s the verdict? Is this whole thing actually a thing, or am I just going completely nuts?

Click to collapse...

im not sure i fully follow, are you suggesting that the garchomp locked into outrage will always lose the speed tie? if so this is a pretty easy thing to test using 2 accounts. if not then i dont understand what you mean to be honest

 

[bdt2002]

im not sure i fully follow, are you suggesting that the garchomp locked into outrage will always lose the speed tie? if so this is a pretty easy thing to test using 2 accounts. if not then i dont understand what you mean to be honest

Click to collapse...

That’s what I’m trying to figure out, yeah. You have it right. The thing is, testing with two accounts to see if it’s RNG or not would either require a high enough sample size (one 50/50 obviously isn’t going to be enough) of test runs or possibly a deep dive into the code of the game. If the Outrage-locked Garchomp, for example, lost five times in a row, that would only be a 1 in 32 chance, and we’ve seen much rarer sequences of events happen in competitive tournaments.

With the benefit of hindsight I definitely should have saved that replay where this happened to me, why didn’t I think of doing that…

 

[Monai]

It's a 50 50 my man

 

[ILoveGarchom]

It's a 50 50 my man

Click to collapse...

If winning the tie means you win, it's actually 0-100 in the opps favour

 

[monchooo]

Wanted to share some of the fun sets I've used this year in circuit. None of these are new but I think they are better than their current usage suggests.
:bw/scrafty:
Scrafty @ Leftovers
Ability: Shed Skin
EVs: 116 HP / 252 Atk / 140 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Drain Punch
- Crunch
- Ice Punch

Shed Skin is what makes Scrafty a unique sweeper in the tier for me, letting you set up vs wisp/twave and heal off any chip damage with drain punch along the way. Speed is for zam at +2. Outside of whirl skarm it is very hard to stop once it's behind screens.

---

Screens @ Light Clay
- Reflect
- Light Screen
- Memento
- Healing Wish

Screens are great at enabling random sweepers and the tier has a lot of great screens users. A lot of anti HO tech is very mon/set specific so bulky set up mons with I hit everything coverage tend to do better than the standard mons on HO. Stuff like scrafty, double dance lando and thundy-t, empoleon etc.

---

:bw/chansey:
Chansey (F) @ Eviolite
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stealth Rock
- Seismic Toss
- Soft-Boiled
- Healing Wish

Fun option on HO. Chansey is still a blanket check vs most special attackers and its a shitty suicide rocker at worst. Healing wish has obvious utility but even if all your mons are at full its still a nice way to get them in safely as a one time baton pass.

---

:bw/conkeldurr:
Conkeldurr @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
Adamant Nature
- Drain Punch
- Mach Punch
- Ice Punch
- Thunder Punch

The immediate power from boosted elemental punches make it a great breaker and it often gets extra turns to click buttons from the opponents fear of letting the spdef set set up.

---

:bw/moltres:
Moltres @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
- Substitute
- Roost
- Hurricane
- Will-O-Wisp

Fun guy, can come in freely on a lot of the rockers in the tier and sub wisp can beat a lot of its would be counters like tar. Likes some speed but you can do either bulk or spa on it. Hurricane is great for bsing bulky mons and pressure can help it 1v1 some walls. Sucks into stall sadly.

---

:bw/azumarill:
Azumarill @ Choice Band
Ability: Huge Power
EVs: 32 HP / 252 Atk / 224 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Waterfall
- Superpower
- Ice Punch
- Aqua Jet

Great into clef fat and aqua jet lets it not be dead weight vs offense. Wouldn't use anything other than cb on it.

---

Fun replays featuring some of the mons

fun replays

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen5ou-844577
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen5ou-824148
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen5ou-844578
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen5ou-883678
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen5ou-806906

You can use this garbage if you wanna lose r1 of cup invitational play ins and circuit play offs like I did...

 

[badabing]

5/6 members of the bomb are ohkod by keldeo in the rain. how is that enabling moltres

 

[bdt2002]

Correct me if I’m wrong, chat, but isn’t Gen 5 one of Moltres’s worst generations in the series? I’m not necessarily talking about the obvious Stealth Rock in the room either- I feel like BW Moltres can struggle to find an identity between wanting Sun for its Fire STAB, Rain for Hurricane, and sometimes no weather at all for the sake of avoid Sand chip damage. It’s better than its longtime rival Charizard in this tier, I’ll give Moltres that, but while I see Moltres’s potential and, heck, I’ll even say Agility Moltres may be somewhat underrated, it just takes too much to get going and feels like a momentum sink especially compared to, say, it’s Gen 4 UU counterpart. This doesn’t change any of my other opinions, but I also wanted to mention that its 100 Attack feels wasted on it. I’d rather use something with a more optimized stat spread like Volcarona.

 

[hyperbeamer]

This is quite possibly the single best set in all of BW2, discuss.

:bw/latias:
Latias (F) @ Life Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Earthquake
- Sucker Punch
- Healing Wish

The set in action, completely obliterating TR Reuniclus at the highest level of play and leaving the opponent shellshocked

Jirachi gets rekt and Sucker Punch wins the game

Another replay of Sucker Punch value and Jirachi getting dumpstered, also featuring the latest in Starmie technology: Reflect Type with Rocky Helmet

Calcs

252+ SpA Latias Surf vs. 248 HP / 172 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 114-136 (28.2 - 33.7%)
252+ Attack Latias Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 160-190 (39.7 - 47.1%)

Surf vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Heatran: 192-228 (59.4 - 70.5%)
Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def 30 IVs Heatran: 332-392 (102.7 - 121.3%)
Surf vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Heatran: 140-166 (36.2 - 43%)
Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Heatran: 328-388 (84.9 - 100.5%)

Surf vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Excadrill: 288-340 (79.7 - 94.1%)
Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Excadrill: 260-306 (72 - 84.7%)
Surf vs. 208 HP / 252+ SpD Excadrill: 192-226 (46.4 - 54.7%)
Earthquake vs. 208 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 260-308 (62.9 - 74.5%)

Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Magnezone: 308-364 (109.6 - 129.5%)

Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Jirachi: 174-206 (43 - 50.9%)
Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Jirachi: 69-82 (17 - 20.2%)

Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Latios: 166-196 (55.1 - 65.1%)
Sucker Punch vs. 192 HP / 64 Def Reuniclus: 162-192 (39.6 - 46.9%)
Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def 30 IVs Alakazam: 260-308 (103.5 - 122.7%)

Simply put this set is ownage. Plenty of Other options for 4th move such as Magic Coat, Zen Headbutt, Thunder Wave (mostly unnecessary since Sucker Punch is all you need), Roost (for cowards), Icy Wind, and others. I find Healing Wish aligns best with my own philosophy: I choose death before dishonor. The only problem is Ferrothorn, perennial favorite of cowardly players. HP Fire is underwhelming on mixed Latias, but with Zen Headbutt and a little bit of luck we can surely win the matchup.

That being said, innovation must continue, and more exotic Sucker Punch Latias variants have yet to be fully explored. For example, this one:

:bw/latias:
Latias (F) @ Choice Band
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 176 HP / 252 Atk / 80 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Waterfall
- Outrage
- Sucker Punch
- Trick?

What it lacks in the bait factor that a -2 SpA Latias brings to the table, it just might make up in sheer brawn. This Latias was crafted especially with Tyranitar in mind, but has many gains in other matchups too. 80 Spe EVs outspeed neutral Excadrill variants, while 176 HP, no life orb recoil, and waterfall flinch aid in living to Sucker Punch another day.

Some calced gains

Waterfall vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 192-226 (47.6 - 56%)
88+ Atk Tyranitar Crunch vs. 176 HP / 0 Def Latias: 288-338 (83.4 - 97.9%)

Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Excadrill: 312-368 (86.4 - 101.9%)

Waterfall vs. 240 HP 30 IVs / 16 Def 30 IVs Landorus-Therian: 224-264 (59.2 - 69.8%)
Waterfall vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Landorus-Therian: 226-268 (70.6 - 83.7%)

Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Latios: 248-294 (82.3 - 97.6%)

252 SpA Latios Dragon Pulse vs. 176 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 236-278 (68.4 - 80.5%)

Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Starmie: 238-280 (91.1 - 107.2%)
252 SpA Starmie Ice Beam vs. 176 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 138-164 (40 - 47.5%)

Outrage vs. 72 HP / 0 Def Volcarona: 331-390 (100.6 - 118.5%)
Waterfall vs. 72 HP / 0 Def Volcarona: 294-348 (89.3 - 105.7%)
Sucker Punch vs. 72 HP / 0 Def Volcarona: 147-174 (44.6 - 52.8%)
252 SpA Insect Plate Volcarona Bug Buzz vs. 176 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 290-344 (84 - 99.7%)

Outrage vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Multiscale Dragonite: 244-288 (75.5 - 89.1%)
Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Multiscale Dragonite: 54-64 (16.7 - 19.8%)

252 SpA Alakazam Hidden Power Ice vs. 176 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 126-150 (36.5 - 43.4%)

252 SpA Thundurus-Therian Hidden Power Ice vs. 176 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 134-158 (38.8 - 45.7%)
Sucker Punch vs. 24 HP / 0 Def 30 IVs Thundurus-Therian: 140-165 (45.9 - 54%)
Outrage vs. 24 HP / 0 Def 30 IVs Thundurus-Therian: 313-370 (102.6 - 121.3%)

Outrage vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 423-498 (59.3 - 69.8%)

Psychological obliteration in a record 6 turns - the theoretical minimum - with a Choice Band, also featuring the esteemed Magic Coat Magnezone. This game might not seem over in an objective sense, which only goes to show: the true power of Sucker Punch Latias greatly exceeds its power on paper.

More Sucker Punch Latias science to follow.

I would be interested to see others' takes on this postmodern classic and teams built around it.

 

[hyperbeamer]

Upon further consideration, Waterfall is absolute dog water. It does hit Scizor, Landorus-T, Gliscor, and the odd Bronzong, but even when it does, it does not entirely impress. The presence of pursuit users surely justifies Colbur Berry, which is also much better against scarf Tyranitar, long before it justifies Waterfall, which really only feels unquestionably best in slot against Air Balloon Excadrill. Heatran doesn't count because it's only used by nerds.

Inquiring minds might ponder the question of why a natural landmark of tremendous hydrational power is subject to the thorns of literal vegetation or the fact that some dumb insect happens to have caught itself on fire. We have yet to uncover the answer, but suffice it to say that it dampens the mood considerably.

:bw/latias:
Latias (F) @ Choice Band
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 176 HP / 252 Atk / 80 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Trick
- Earthquake
- Outrage
- Sucker Punch

This is my current Choice set of choice. A new Colbur Berry variant is in R&D, so don't go anywhere.

Wait, does anyone even play this game?

 

[perejil]

I left for 5 minutes and it seems the chomp29 regen has been discovered

 

[dice]

:hippowdon: :skarmory: :heatran: :reuniclus: :clefable: :latias:

BW musing: I really dislike how clunky Bronzong feels on this sort of Hippowdon superman comp, and imo Heatran vastly outperforms. Heatran facilitates a lot more offensively, weakening Reuniclus's checks while maintaining a secondary Steel. The biggest weakness this opens up is LO Zam, but even that isn't /impossible/ given the comp, just hard. I'm sure someone could potentialy refine the sets more than I have. I like HP Grass on Heatran after experimenting just because you really hate giving rain any free switches. EP isn't as necessary with how generally anti-Heatran the comp is. I have preferred using Modest on Heatran, but Timid allows you to beat Skarmory HO more easily, so it's probably better in a ladder setting. Ice Fang is my Hippowdon move of choice since a lack of HP Ice on Heatran makes stuff like Dragonite more annoying.

Most sets will be up to your preference, and these are mine, but the general thesis is: this structure outperforms when you prioritize offensive partnerships over defensive patching.

 

[bdt2002]

I have a question the more experienced player base. Coming from a low ladder scrub- hey, I’m just saying my skill level as it is- am I the only one who finds Spikes to be a bit obnoxious in the current metagame? Or is that just me? To a point, my concerns also stretch to Stealth Rock, but for now I’m mainly just focused on Spikes. I don’t have enough experience to speak on whether or not Spikes is “broken”, but what I can say with a decent level of confidence is that Spikes seems to restrict creative team building at both the lower and higher levels of play rather than encourage creative team building.

What makes Spikes unique in Gen 5 compared to other generations isn’t the move itself, but how this is arguably one of the hardest generations to actually deal with the move without specifically addressing the core issues. Gen 5 has multiple spinblockers available and while some of them are significantly more viable for the role than others, often times you don’t even need to run a spinblocker to punish the opponent for trying to clear your hazards. Yes, you absolutely can still run things like Jellicent to great success, but if your team doesn’t need a spinblocker or if none of the best options synergize well with your core, you still have Gen 5’s improved options for contact punishing. The distribution of Rough Skin was increased here, as was Iron Barbs being introduced, and on top of that you have the Rocky Helmet which is a common item on multiple viable hazard setters. Couple this with the fact that the available options for viable Rapid Spin users can feel somewhat limited at times, and you start to realize that the hazard metagame and specifically Spikes stacking is massively skewed towards the hazard setters to the point where teams are better off running multiple Spikes-immune Pokémon, which isn’t strictly a problem on its own. After all, Gen 3 has a lot of these “Superman” structures. The problem is, the ever-looming threat of Stealth Rock makes those kinds of structures hard to justify when you need to spend valuable team slots accounting for Gen 5’s powerful offensive threats and the ease of stacking Spikes makes those Pokémon feel unbearable to play against sometimes.

This brings me to my other point. I already mentioned Rapid Spin, but the other available counterplay to Spikes isn’t exactly viable either. Magic Bounce users are rare as is being limited in what teams they fit on, and while Xatu can still U-Turn out of Tyranitar to avoid a Pursuit trap, the Tyranitar user can elect to try and play around this accordingly. Using Taunt to stop the opponent from setting up their hazards seems like it would be more consistent, and it definitely is depending on your Taunt user, but if your opponent suspects you clicking Taunt is too obvious not to do, depending on the state of the battle and what their hazards setter is, they may blindside you with something you’re not expecting. In fact, this just happened to me in a Gen 4 battle earlier today, where I used my leads Crobat’s Taunt on their Azelf expecting Stealth Rock only to get blasted by a Psychic to the face. (Note to self- don’t forget the Focus Sash next time.) Ultimately my issue is just how easy it is for Spikes to be set up and stacked in Gen 5 relative to the difficulty of playing and building around it. Magic Guard and Levitate Pokémon have it the best where they’re immune to Spikes without being weak to Stealth Rock, and those same Magic Guard Pokémon would likely feel far less oppressive if Spikes were out of the picture. I can promise you a lot less people would think, say, Reuniclus is broken if Spikes aren’t involved.

Edit: I almost forgot, I also want to shout out two Spikes users in particular who on their own are definitely not broken Pokémon but have specific traits that enhance their ability to set hazards to a potential unhealthy degree. Ferrothorn is in a unique spot with its typing where it can used on both Sand and Rain and also to where it can set up hazards and also Leech Seed, while we’re on the subject of Rapid Spin, and naturally has Iron Barbs built in to punish spinning away Ferrothorn’s moves. You’d be surprised to see how often people forget Rapid Spin works against Leech Seed. Meanwhile Skarmory is seen more on hyper offense and has gained some stock of its own with both Rocky Helmet and Custap Berry + Sturdy as a dedicated Spikes lead who can, pending Taunt, usually get its team off to a strong start and synergizes well with Jellicent and various offensive sweepers, though I’ve also seen Skarmory on bulky Sand teams on occasion.