DP Tier Discussion - BL and UU (mark 2)

[Forsety]

It has the potential to be pretty hard to deal with in UU although not as much as you would think with the set Forsety provided as pokemon like Quagsire Aggron and Steelix will wall it without fail. I'm actually more worried about what a mixed set would be able to do.

Well that was actually my point since Howl is practically Arcanine's most basic option. Also Quagsire is still getting hurt by E-Speed and Steelix by Flare Blitz though the recoil hurts. WoW and mixed variations are what you'd be seeing more of and they'll be hurting alot more.

Tauros i also dont have much of a problem with either, I was thinking about it as well and it should fit pretty well in UU, although some testing may be required as it is a pretty Bulky pokemon coupled with the fact that it has Intimidate.

Well the way I see it is Tauros is predictable even down to the EV's, it only ever has two viable spreads. (Or four if you want to be a smartalec) Adamant 6/252/252 or Jolly 6/252/252 with Choice Band or Choice Scarf. Its not actually that bulky since it has nothing to invest in HP. Unless you feel you can sacrifice valuable attack off a only good 100 base or risk letting Froslass outspeed and hit it on its vulnerable side.

 

[Fenikkusu]

I don't think Arcy should be moved down. He's got respectable attack stats, enough to go mixed without any trouble, a bit of bulk (90/80/80 defenses and intimidate), and 95 base speed doesn't hurt (+ espeed of course).

Dragon Pulse + Flamethrower/Overheat/Flare Blitz gives you type coverage unresisted by anything in OU.

 

[Deck Knight]

Arcanine is definitely interesting but i'm honestly not sure about it either. It has the potential to be pretty hard to deal with in UU although not as much as you would think with the set Forsety provided as pokemon like Quagsire Aggron and Steelix will wall it without fail. I'm actually more worried about what a mixed set would be able to do.

Crunch, Fire Blast, Hidden Power Grass Dragon Pulse/Extremespeed/Will O Wisp, would be pretty hard to deal with in UU, as its able to 2HKO pretty much all of the walls in UU with this set. It's defences are also pretty good and it is relatively fast, i'm leaning more towards no on this one.

I'm not really for including Honchcrow either, sure it's slow but Specs, CB LO (mixed) or Nasty Plot variants are all viable and all pretty deadly. Sure Steelix and Drapion wall the first set but nothing else can really take a hit and the Special Sets can be pretty hard to deal with due to Honchcrow getting STAB on Dark moves which the best Special Walls in UU are weak to.

Honchcrow isn't the fastest thing around, but it's high HP coupled with Roost do allow it some staying power. I really don't think UU is capable of handling Honchcrow.

As for Aerodactyl, sure it would be pretty much a top tier UU but by no means is any set unstoppable, firstly Aerodactyl can't wall as well in UU due to no boost from Sandstream, and the mixed set you posted although pretty effective runs into an issues with a number of pokemon in UU, examples would be pokemon like Quagsire, Blastoise, Intimidate Hitmontop (even the LO set does pretty well against it due to Bullet Punch), Gastrodon even Granbull walls it pretty well for what he's worth.

And as for comparing it to Kabutops, I think Kabutops is a bigger threat right off the bat to be honest, CB Kabutops hits way harder than CB Aerodactyl and for whats it's worth also has access to a STAB priorety move to make up for it's relatively mediocre speed which really shouldn't be underestimated anyway. 284 is still a pretty decent number for a UU sweeper. Also a LO set from Kabutops comprising of simply Stone Edge, Waterfall, X-Scissor and Aqua Jet can be pretty deadly, maybe not as good as Aero late game due to Aero's higher speed but i seriously think your severly overrating Aerodactyl in that comparison, its a good pokemon but by no means broken in UU.

Tauros i also dont have much of a problem with either, I was thinking about it as well and it should fit pretty well in UU, although some testing may be required as it is a pretty Bulky pokemon coupled with the fact that it has Intimidate.

Kabutops is BL to begin with and for a good reason, it's damn near unstoppable in rain. My concern with Aero is mostly the fact its mere existence in the metagame forces all Scarfers to aim for a new and higher speed simply because the existence of Aerodactyl generates a threat to most of the metagame.

The smogon analysis lists Aerodactyl as a great cleaner, and it is. When Aerodactyl comes in late game, you'd better hope you have one of the listed counters (Quagsire, Blastoise, Hitmontop) in fairly good health because none of them particularly enjoy eating a boosted Double-Edge or Earthquake. One of the counters not mentioned is Poliwrath. Unless Aero has Aerial Ace Poliwrath pretty much laughs off its attacks (Kabutops' too).

There is the matter of switching Aerodactyl in, of course. However, since it resists Normal and Flying and is immune to Ground, it can usually find a good way in. Aerodactyl is a glass cannon for the most part, but once it's in, taking it out without something getting severely damaged is difficult.

For the rest of them: Honchkrow is dangerous because of its mixed attacking abilities. It has loads of attack and even a priority move in Sucker Punch. Discount at your own risk.

Bulkytauros would be interesting to create actually, and Frosslass won't come anywhere near it. With both Payback and Stone Edge, Frosslass really doesn't want to be angering the Wild Bull Pokemon.

Although Swellow mostly steals Tauros' limelight as dangerous normal. Flame Orb Swellow's Facade is ridiculous.

 

[Bologo]

Kabutops is BL to begin with and for a good reason, it's damn near unstoppable in rain. My concern with Aero is mostly the fact its mere existence in the metagame forces all Scarfers to aim for a new and higher speed simply because the existence of Aerodactyl generates a threat to most of the metagame.

Kabutops is UU right now, look at the smogondex.

 

[Bourbon]

Quagsire and Poliwrath wall Kabutops 100%... resist rock and immune to water. X scissor is LOL.

I don't think Kabutops is too much of a problem.

Aerodactyl on the other hand is too dangerous IMO. Rock Head double edge is really what seals the deal, hitting it's "counters" that resist Stone Edge for a nice 120 base power. 309 - 339 attack isn't bad either. I really think it should be tested extensively before we make a decision. (how much does Steelix take from Earthquake... if it comes in on Stone Edge/ Double Edge it could be considered a counter.)

CALCS: ** Neutral natured Aerodactyl against impish 252/252 defenders**

Quagsire takes 34.52% - 40.61% from CB Double Edge. Pretty nice, as long as he's over 75% HP he can counter it.

Hitmontop (impish, max/max) takes 41.78% - 49.01% :( Aerial Ace = 2HKO

Poliwrath (impish, max/max) takes 33.07% - 38.80%. Nice. Poliwrath looks to be a good counter, but Aerial Ace would certainly 2HKO.

Steelix (impish max/max) takes 35.03% - 41.24% from Earthquake. Very impressive.



I dunno, Steelix and Poliwrath can take it on, but we may have to modify the EV spreads on a lot of pokes if Aerodactyl comes to UU.

 

[gengod]

@ Skiddle Those calcs are certinly not in Aerodactly's favour, your Hitmontop calcs are wrong however, as you didn't factor in Intimidate which would be used on a defensive Hitmontop.

But one must remember that these calcs come from a CB set and as with most CBers there is normally never a direct counter to it and a player normally has to work with resistances to deal with it. I'd actually be more scared of a LO Aerodactyl than a CB one. but either way both sets have their counters in UU.

My concern with Aero is mostly the fact its mere existence in the metagame forces all Scarfers to aim for a new and higher speed simply because the existence of Aerodactyl generates a threat to most of the metagame.

People will adapt, a pokemon only needs 264 speed with a Choice Scarf to outspeed Aerodactyl and most of the common Scarf users in UU already exceed that speed.

The smogon analysis lists Aerodactyl as a great cleaner, and it is. When Aerodactyl comes in late game, you'd better hope you have one of the listed counters (Quagsire, Blastoise, Hitmontop) in fairly good health

This applies to any sweeper regarless of tier.

There is the matter of switching Aerodactyl in, of course. However, since it resists Normal and Flying and is immune to Ground, it can usually find a good way in. Aerodactyl is a glass cannon for the most part, but once it's in, taking it out without something getting severely damaged is difficult.

I don't think it will be as easy to switch Aero in as you think. None of Aero's resistances are particularly common in UU so if it switches in it's more than likely taking a Neutral typed hit or its coming in for a revenge kill. Also spinners arent very common in UU, so more than likely it's also switching in with 25% less hp every time.

Although Swellow mostly steals Tauros' limelight as dangerous normal. Flame Orb Swellow's Facade is ridiculous.

Swellow does hit harder and is faster but Taurous doesnt fear Rock and Steel types since it packs Earthquake.

 

[ODDish]

In Discussion:
Aerodactyl, Venusaur, Honchkrow, Arcanine, Tauros, Exeggutor

Banished to BL:
Feraligatr - Typhlosion - Crobat - Azumarill - Ursaring - Slowking
- Mamoswine - Ambipom - Pinsir

Borderline UU's: (Ones under careful observation)
-Walrein, Glaceon, Ninetales, Clefable, Scyther, Jynx, Leafeon


BL's moved down to UU:
Claydol - Cloyster
Steelix - Drapion - Leafeon - Jynx


BL's with recommendations for movedown to UU or to be Tested.
(now presented in terms of levels of opposition)
-Shedinja (Low/Average)
-Marowak (Average)
-Regigigas (Average)
-Torterra (High)

BL's considered for testing/movedown but were blocked.
-Empoleon, Houndoom (rejected twice), Milktank, Flygon, Entei

Widely Acceptable NFE's:
-Magmar, Electabuzz, Trapinch, Poliwhirl, Clamperl, Vigoroth, Pikachu

Non-obvious Banned NFEs (AKA, BL):
Snover, Hippopatas

We have six pokemon being actively discussed, so perhaps, if there is interest, it might be useful to organize some sort of testing ... either a series of informal matches, or perhaps a mini-tournament involving these 'mon?

 

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

I don't mean to sound arrogant but to be honest I don't like the way this discussion is going at the moment, where a large number of BLs that might just be on the right side of unbalancing are being suggested for a movedown.

By this I mean I am all for the metagame that will be produced when taken to its logical conclusion, I just think the route we are taking is unnecessary.

If we started adding lots of hard hitting Pokemon like Arcanine, Honchkrow, Aerodactyl etc, most of whom run mixed sets effectively, they may not prove to be too unbalancing by themselves but they would most likely create an even more offensively skewed UU metagame than before. At this point it would only be a matter of time before people started suggesting moving down a variety of defensive Pokemon such as Articuno, Uxie, Umbreon etc to help restore the balance between offense and defense whilst being 'killable' at the same time. This new influx of defensive pokes would pave the way for stronger offensive threats and the cycle would continue until we end up with almost all BLs in UU bar a select few. I see this as a real possibility based on current discussion, with people using arguments along the lines of 'with Drapion/Steelix now UU, perhaps 'x' and 'y' Pokemon are no longer unbalancing', and it would be further proof of just how flimsy our current definiton of UU really is.

Now I'm not against this happening in any way. What I am saying is wouldn't it be easier and a lot less time consuming to just go the 'test everything all at once' route i.e. Obi's proposal? That way transitions between BL and UU would be far fewer and drastically reduce the amount of discussion required.

Many of you probably disagree and think I am wrong. Perhaps I am, but I'd like to hear your reasons why nonetheless.

 

[xcfrisco]

Now I'm not against this happening in any way. What I am saying is wouldn't it be easier and a lot less time consuming to just go the 'test everything all at once' route i.e. Obi's proposal? That way transitions between BL and UU would be far fewer and drastically reduce the amount of discussion required.

100% agree. I believe the moving down of BL's to UU shows that the concept of UU needs to be seriously revamped and more defined.

 

[ODDish]

What I am saying is wouldn't it be easier and a lot less time consuming to just go the 'test everything all at once' route i.e. Obi's proposal?

Probably ... but as nothing definitive has come of the proposal as of yet, I imagine people are simply making the most of what opportunities are currently available to them.

Of course, the fact that many of these borderline cases are now being considered for inclusion in UU, does suggest that the concept of "UU" has already shifted considerably in our collective consciousness and that perhaps now is the time for Obi's plan to implemented ... on the other hand I don't see what harm this discussion (and possible testing) can do ... after all look how long it took to get Leafeon and Steelix moved down.

I believe the moving down of BL's to UU shows that the concept of UU needs to be seriously revamped and more defined.

Which is exactly what the changes are working toward ...

 

[obi]

I would really like some sort of UU ladder on Shoddy to get some real data with it so we don't get "I see a lot of Pokemon X" "What are you talking about Pokemon X is practically never used!".

 

[ODDish]

Have there been any moves in that direction?

 

[Lee]

Just dropping Smeargle's name into the hat. I don't see any reason why he would be uncounterable in UU.

 

[Slickee]

Just dropping Smeargle's name into the hat. I don't see any reason why he would be uncounterable in UU.

Since Smeargle can pass ridiculous crap like Belly Drums and Mean Looks, and UU is lacking phazers like crazy.

 

[Bourbon]

Hey, it's me again... *waves*

Yeah, so is there any opposition to Magneton in UU, I think he'd be pretty fun there. I was gonna try and make a shoddy team for UU with Magneton in it, because I like it so much... but I figured I would ask here first.

I mean, even though he has the same role as Magnezone, his playing style is considerably different; with higher speed and lower defenses, he's got to hit and run, not tank. Does this make him different enough to be allowed?

 

[Chou Toshio]

One thing I am concerned about in retrospect, thinking about Obi's proposition, is that there are just so many pokemon in UU and BL-- how will we know which ones are too strong? It could take a potentially very long time for people to explore all the (MANY) very viable options . . .

 

[tdub13]

Just dropping Gardevoir's name into the hat. I don't see any reason why she would be uncounterable in UU. Stealing Lee's post, sorta... Oh yea, and Miltank. With the rampant fighting attacks in UU, I don't think Miltank would be too overpowering.

 

[ODDish]

UU is lacking phazers like crazy.

It's not lacking phazers ... rather phazing moves don't see much use for some reason ...

Haze

Altaria, Blastoise, Mantine, Muk, Politoed, Poliwrath, Quagsire ...

Perish Song

Altaria, Dewgong, Jynx, Lapras, Politoed, Wigglytuff ...

Roar

Aggron, Altaria, Bastiadon, Blastoise, Drapion, Kangaskhan, Nidoqueen, Steelix, Walrein

Whirlwind

Drapion, Noctowl

Yeah, so is there any opposition to Magneton in UU,

It's an NFE ... isn't there always opposition.

Just dropping Gardevoir's name into the hat.

You're not the first ... I believe Lou Cypher (?) petitioned for Gardevoir in the last thread, but it didn't receive a great deal of support. Who knows though ... perhaps people would be willing to reconsider.

Oh yea, and Miltank. With the rampant fighting attacks in UU, I don't think Miltank would be too overpowering.

BL's considered for testing/movedown but were blocked.

-Empoleon, Houndoom (rejected twice), Milktank, Flygon, Entei

 

[tdub13]

Oops, I didn't see Miltank's name on the list. But why is it blocked? IMO it's not too powerful for UU at all and would give it a good utility Pokemon.

 

[Bourbon]

Hey, it's me again... *waves*

Yeah, so is there any opposition to Magneton in UU, I think he'd be pretty fun there. I was gonna try and make a shoddy team for UU with Magneton in it, because I like it so much... but I figured I would ask here first.

I mean, even though he has the same role as Magnezone, his playing style is considerably different; with higher speed and lower defenses, he's got to hit and run, not tank. Does this make him different enough to be allowed?

Ness tried PSI BUMP OMEGA!!

 

[ODDish]

@ Skiddle.

Quote:
It's an NFE ... isn't there always opposition.

@ R2D2

Don't remember ... you could always go back through the original thread and find out if you feel strongly about it.

 

[Kalec]

I believe Gardy was rejected for hitting hard with good coverage and having an excellent support movepool backed up by decent enough stats all around. While I wouldn't object to testing, it isn't necessary as Gardy would prove too powerful for UU. Then again, everybody though the same thing about Wobb and Deoxys speed...

I agree that what we really need is a UU ladder for some hard data. Surprised no one has mentioned this to Colin yet.

I would like to see Tauros and Magneton in testing. I can't see Arky or Aero being "weak" enough for UU play, though as more BL's come down they could be revisited.

 

[tdub13]

@ Skiddle.




@ R2D2

Don't remember ... you could always go back through the original thread and find out if you feel strongly about it.

Nah, I was just wondering since Miltank is awesome. If we are purely determining UU on usage and power, what about Slowking? It's currectly 133rd on the ladder, which is below the OU and I believe the BL cutoff line. It wouldn't be too threatening despite Nasty Plot or Calm Mind, as common special walls such as Grumpig or Hypno can CM up alongside it. Lanturn is a viable counter as well as it shuts down its Water/Electric/Ice attacks, and Grass Knot is only hitting for a paltry 40 base power before accounting super effectiveness. Because it's so slow, even if it gets several boosts under its belt, a revenge killer(Sharpedo, or even Crawdaunt) and easily come in and force it out or kill it with super effective attacks.

 

[Resist]

Trick Room
Nasty Plot
Grass Knot
Hydro Pump

@ Miracle Seed

SLowking

he is evil!

 

[Lee]

Slowking has been discussed. He was UU originally but was deemed to be too powerful and too bulky. However, it seems we're leaning towards a new stance of testing out BLs since Obi's proposal so who knows? Aero, for example, would have been laughed off in the last thread but we're all willing to discuss it now.

Gardevoir was discussed in depth, her stats are too good and the movepool is too varied.

Anyway, I still don't see anything wrong with Smeargle. As ODDish says there are a lot of available phazers not to mention Mach Punches galore.