DP Tier Discussion - BL and UU (mark 2)

[Forsety]

Yes, only after a swords dance but that's garchomp's power in OU too isn't it? 2HKOs everything after a swords dance?

No. You've completely missed the point of Garchomp's power factor.

Garchomp's power comes from having defenses on par with an average Uber and a fatal hit never being guaranteed to hit. Speed in conjunction to that and decent special attack and SR resistance and a typing which guarantees near universal coverage and next to no weaknesses.

2HKO'ing everything after Swords Dance comes dead last in the equation since theres so many which can do that. But its things which can do that AND have all the other little things mentioned which matters.

The UU metagame was much more offensive and at least in my experience, scyther was a dominant offensive force.

Uh. No. Pinsir was and metagame shifts are normal.

Because it's a wall...and if the wall isn't taking the damage then who is?

See here. Theres a problem with your definition here, a 'wall' is supposed to take next to no damage. A spongeor bulky pokemon is supposed to take damage but keep ticking. Drifblim by this definition, in theory and in practice actually does classify as both because its taking the damage yet at the same time isn't taking anything but can take damage and keep ticking.

Also seriously stop with the 'theres SR too' argument. Its becoming extremely weak now since you constantly exclude Scyther from it yet subject the opponent to it. Newsflash. Your opponent is allowed to clear SR too.

Furthermore what exactly is your point?

You're just going round in circles now, just freakin spit it out. Are you against Steelix being in UU or Scyther being in UU because you're being about as clear as a politician.

 

[ODDish]

Forsety
Are you against Steelix being in UU or Scyther being in UU because you're being about as clear as a politician.

astrohawke
Perhaps instead of moving better walls like steelix and weezing down to UU, we should first consider removing the threats that force us to carry these walls in the first place. We have less need for steelix if scyther and swellow(scyther more than swellow since swellow can be walled by any rock or steel while scyther is nearly unwallable) aren't present and we don't need weezing as much without the threat of pokemon like leafeon and drapion.

I wouldn't like to imply that this is astrohawke's position, but it is certainly indicative ...

 

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

No. You've completely missed the point of Garchomp's power factor.

Garchomp's power comes from having defenses on par with an average Uber and a fatal hit never being guaranteed to hit. Speed in conjunction to that and decent special attack and SR resistance and a typing which guarantees near universal coverage and next to no weaknesses.

2HKO'ing everything after Swords Dance comes dead last in the equation since theres so many which can do that. But its things which can do that AND have all the other little things mentioned which matters.

I'd also like to add to that that Garchomp can run a set with Yache Berry and Swords Dance/Outrage/Fire Fang/Earthquake that truly can 2HKO anything after a Swords Dance without being killed back first. I know of no Scyther set that can do the same thing. Aerial Ace and Brick Break are essential for obvious reasons, which leaves one slot left. Without X-Scissor you can't even 2HKO Luxray, whilst without Night Slash you can't OHKO Rotom (and even struggle to 2HKO against bulkier spreads without a Life Orb), who easily OHKOs back. Go with either one and you forfeit the Baton Pass option.

Also what ODDish just mentioned reminds me of something else I take issue with:

Weezing coming to UU will help with leafeon and drapion.

Whilst what you have said is probably true by itself, you seem to be implying that Weezing is being considered for UU specifically to deal with Leafeon and Drapion. This is nonsense because they already have fairly reliable counters; Weezing would just give players one extra option for countering them. IMO Weezing serves a far more important purpose in countering fighters like Primeape and Hitmonchan who currently don't have reliable counters, but again that is just a positive side effect. Essentially Weezing is being considered for a movedown because it is considered to not be unbalancing in that tier, which should be the only requirement for anything that isn't Uber/OU.

 

[astrohawke]

Furthermore what exactly is your point?

You're just going round in circles now, just freakin spit it out. Are you against Steelix being in UU or Scyther being in UU because you're being about as clear as a politician.

Yes ODDish has it right, if you just go back and actually read my arguments you'll see that I make my point very clear from the start.

Anyway, there's no need to get so worked up. I'm just offering my views on what I think would balance the metagame. You clearly don't agree so I'm not gonna bother arguing more theorymon and just leave it there. I think I've said all I've needed to say anyway. Although I have to add that there should be no doubt in anyone's mind that scyther is one of those powerhouses in UU, otherwise it wouldn't be one of the "Borderline UU's" (Ones under careful observation) as maniac has put it.

Regardless, this discussion was actually about bringing weezing down to UU to counter threats like drapion and leafeon. As I say, the counters should be in the tier where the threats are. Either weezing should move down to UU or drapion and leafeon should move back up to BL. On the matter of scyther and steelix, I don't really care either way because currently they are both UU so I'm fine with that.

Whilst what you have said is probably true by itself, you seem to be implying that Weezing is being considered for UU specifically to deal with Leafeon and Drapion. This is nonsense because they already have fairly reliable counters; Weezing would just give players one extra option for countering them. IMO Weezing serves a far more important purpose in countering fighters like Primeape and Hitmonchan who currently don't have reliable counters, but again that is just a positive side effect. Essentially Wezing is being considered for a movedown because it is considered to not be unbalancing in that tier, which should be the only requirement for anything that isn't Uber/OU.

As someone has said before, when it comes to moving something like a wall down to UU, it goes further than whether or not it unbalances the tier.

What exactly is the definition of "unbalancing"? For an attacker, it's obviously unbalancing if it's got no real counters or is very hard to stop. The same cannot be said for a defensive pokemon. They usually do not pose any real offensive threat so we can't use the same definition. They can be "unbalancing" if they're too hard to kill I suppose but usually that's unlikely as they're usually weak to one side of the spectrum.

When it comes to moving walls down, we really have to look at what it offers the metagame. In the case of weezing, it would balance it a lot more by countering the pokemon that don't have very many solid counters at the moment. Not just leafeon and drapion obviously but many others as well like hitmonchan and primeape as you mention.

 

[Forsety]

Anyway, there's no need to get so worked up. I'm just offering my views on what I think would balance the metagame. You clearly don't agree so I'm not gonna bother arguing more theorymon and just leave it there. I think I've said all I've needed to say anyway. Although I have to add that there should be no doubt in anyone's mind that scyther is one of those powerhouses in UU, otherwise it wouldn't be one of the "Borderline UU's" (Ones under careful observation) as maniac has put it.

Sorry, I just don't like straying from the original point too much without any real outcome. It kinda clutters the thread and makes it hard to know what is going on.

Also thanks to ODDish for digging that part out.

What you're saying I understand, essentially you support Obi's proposal as many do. The problem lies in that theres no means for a quick way to put all the walls/threats into the same tier.

As it stands since the game started out ultra offensive its become a one way balancing act. As far as things go its all we can do unless a UU ladder pops up somewhere or UU is simply promoted and gains popularity.

UU is a niche and unless you can build a movement/following to be noticed and a recognized ladder, our only real way of deciding what walls and threats belong in the same tier is slow painful one/two at a time.

 

[gengod]

As it stands since the game started out ultra offensive its become a one way balancing act. As far as things go its all we can do unless a UU ladder pops up somewhere or UU is simply promoted and gains popularity.

Isn't balance what we're aiming for in the first place? If the metagame started out as "ultra offensive" then the only way we would go about balancing it is to either remove the offensive threats or add pokemon which can stand up to them defensively.

There isn't any one way balancing act as far as i see. We are adding defenisve pokemon to a metagame that was almost entirely offensive and i'd assume if it were overly defensive we'd would add offensive threats in hopes to achieve a more balanced metagame, either way we're still achieving the same thing.

 

[Forsety]

By one way balancing I basically meant that, just whether we remove the offensive or add defensive is two means to an outcome. Seeing the original first objective of UU was long ago achieved and that was to create a different battling environment.

Just that we're still in the stage where we're still trying to find where the bar is at by moving it slightly higher each time. Removals from UU have become few and far and additions from BL are more common. So basically...one way since we're aiming at going up while keeping the balance.

Also the list so we can get back on track. Made some general re-ordering so its easier to keep track of and also I think its safe to say Weezing, Venusaur and Articuno have had enough discussion to give a verdict. Also put Regigigas on high/average simply because it was blocked from the last submission but Marowak made it so it can't really be considered average. Generally speaking it tends to be those in the average or lower categories who make the submission.

Also dropped Ninetales and Glaceon from observation since its safe to say they've settled into their niche's in UU.

In Discussion:
Miltank, Tauros, Aerodactyl

Banished to BL:
- Feraligatr, Typhlosion, Crobat, Azumarill, Ursaring, Slowking, Mamoswine, Ambipom, Pinsir


Borderline UU's: (Ones under careful observation)
- Clefable, Scyther, Jynx, Leafeon


BL's moved down to UU:
Claydol, Cloyster, Steelix, Drapion, Leafeon, Jynx


BL's with recommendations for movedown to UU or to be Tested.
(presented in terms of levels of opposition)

- Weezing (Very Low)
- Venusaur (Very Low/Low)
- Shedinja (Low)
- Articuno (Low/Average)
- Marowak (Average)
- Miltank (Average)
- Aerodactyl (Average)
- Tauros (Average)
- Regigigas (High/Average)
- Exeggutor (High)

BL's suggested for testing/movedown before but were blocked.
-Empoleon, Houndoom (rejected twice), Milktank, Flygon, Entei (rejected twice), Arcanine (rejected twice), Honchkrow, Torterra

Widely Acceptable NFE's:
-Magmar, Electabuzz, Trapinch, Poliwhirl, Clamperl, Vigoroth, Pikachu, Scyther

Non-obvious Banned NFEs (AKA, BL):
Snover, Hippopatas

 

[astrohawke]

On the note of ninetales, I think we should keep it under observation for now. This is mainly because of the removal of wish hypno from shoddy and therefore one of its best counters, out of I think 3 that were really viable.

Despite what the analysis says, grumpig is not a counter as it is 2HKOed by a nasty plot dark pulse and fails to 2HKO back with psychic. That leaves mantine (preferably a resttalk version) or altaria who can stop ninetales. Altaria has to be lucky that it doesn't snooze for too long either as it eventually does still go down to life orb fire blast (3HKO) or just dark pulse (5HKO). SR obviously makes both of these counters worse off.

Personally I haven't used ninetales because of the ever present threat of hypno in UU completely putting it out of action. However, I plan to test it now with hypno gone, which I believe will make it pretty powerful.

 

[ODDish]

Just that we're still in the stage where we're still trying to find where the bar is at by moving it slightly higher each time. Removals from UU have become few and far and additions from BL are more common. So basically...one way since we're aiming at going up while keeping the balance.

Which begs the question should anything else be moved until we have something other than individual observation as a means of gaging the consequences of such moves?

 

[gengod]

Which begs the question should anything else be moved until we have something other than individual observation as a means of gaging the consequences of such moves?

What else is there to go by. There is no UU ladder with which we can look at statistics and chances are we aren't going to have one until the UU metagame has settled down.

 

[ODDish]

What else is there to go by.

Nothing, which is why I'm growing increasingly reticent regarding anything else moving down, particularly given the pokemon being discussed/considered.

 

[Pneuma]

Last I read Obi was pushing for UU ladder. I'd say we all get on that train and see if Colin or someone can implement it for Shoddy. It's the only thing that will get real results instead of more speculation.

 

[Pablo]

Yeah, none of this theorymon is truly accurate until we get an actual ladder with weighted usage.

 

[Bourbon]

Personally I doubt there will be a UU ladder. Last time Colin talked about a UU ladder, it was a "non-OU ladder" which means crap like Spiritomb and Alakazam will be allowed.

SAD FACE :(

 

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

Personally I doubt there will be a UU ladder. Last time Colin talked about a UU ladder, it was a "non-OU ladder" which means crap like Spiritomb and Alakazam will be allowed.

SAD FACE :(

It that's what is meant by UU ladder then I personally doubt it too. However, I was always of the belief that we were talking about executing Obi's proposal and working from the top down. I fail to see how you can do otherwise on Shoddy because Shoddy =/= Smogon.

For me, any UU ladder in any shape or form = HAPPY FACE :)

 

[ODDish]

Last time Colin talked about a UU ladder, it was a "non-OU ladder" which means crap like Spiritomb and Alakazam will be allowed.

Personally I hope so ... I'm more interested in BL pokemon at the moment and being able to use them in a non-OU environment will make a welcome change.

Besides such a ladder would prove invaluable in the tiering process.

 

[xcfrisco]

Yeah, I don't see how you can have an "UU ladder" at this point. The only way to see what really is "UU" would be to go by Obi's idea, see how centralized the "non-OU" metagame is, and then start banning things like crazy until you get a suitable size for your metagame (OU has 47 pokes, how many does UU have to have?).

All of this would take a very, very long time and there would be a million squabbles along the way. In my extremely humble opinion, I think UU is too niche and needs too much work to flesh out (493 pokemon is a lot, lol).

This doesn't mean people should posting in these threads and stuff, just that UU should probably just stay niche amongst the small group of people that play/want an "UU" metagame.

 

[Trust]

A ladder with Obi's idea would be great and fast. Every week we could see usage list, and those pokemons which are centralized, would be banned to BL. I think it's quite easy. If we found a usage list as Uber's one, Kiogre would be banned to the next tier. In UU the same. We lose nothing trying it... why don't a UU ladder with all BL stuff?

 

[Pneuma]

Obi's proposal and a non-OU ladder are in essence the same proposal.
And of course it's valuable and what we want, yada yada.

 

[Kira]

Personally I doubt there will be a UU ladder. Last time Colin talked about a UU ladder, it was a "non-OU ladder" which means crap like Spiritomb and Alakazam will be allowed.

SAD FACE :(

Ok just to clear some things up. Colin IS implementing (or going to) a non-OU ladder.

The ladders purpose will be to once and for all decide what is and what isn't BL

So basically BL starts empty at 0 pokemon and will gradually be filled up later

 

[Forsety]

The only concern I have is the changes when required will be swiftly dealt with since starting out things will be most messy.

 

[Slickee]

When this ladder is implemented though, will UU stay the same as it is now until we draw up some conclusions? Since this is apparently gonna happen one way or another, I think we have to ease into this transition as much as possible.

 

[astrohawke]

I suppose you can still challenge people to UU battles with the current list. You'd just use a BL team on the ladder though.

 

[ODDish]

I suppose you can still challenge people to UU battles with the current list. You'd just use a BL team on the ladder though.

Or a combination of BL/UU, it can work on the standard ladder so should on this one too.

 

[Trust]

This would be first step to find the real UU metagame, so I wait for the non-OU ladder as soon as it's possible.

Anyway, I see some pokemons which will be inmediately banned to BL, like Alakazam, which is a beast without Blissey or Tyranitar around. Raikou will be problematic too, and Kingdra could be a problem without autoweather.

All in all, it's really necessary to build the real UU environment.