***[VOTE] The final Deoxys-S "discussion" thread***

[Hipmonlee]

By no risk IPL means no downside. IE other pokemon that fast all have to have choice scarf.

When he says it does it better than everything else, he is implying that he does it so much better than everything else, that everything else becomes pointless.

The difference between Deoxys being better than Blissey in this situation is that banning Blissey doesnt open up an abundance of other special walls, it just removes special walling from the game.

Hope that cleared things up.

Have a nice day.

 

[Aldaron]

Well I guess this is a start...

By no risk IPL means no downside. IE other pokemon that fast all have to have choice scarf.

How does Deoxys-S not have a downside? It might not have to be Choiced to attain its Speed, but that does not mean the Pokemon has no downside. The simple fact that it has counters means there is some downside at least.

When he says it does it better than everything else, he is implying that he does it so much better than everything else, that everything else becomes pointless.

OK, can I have some specific examples of this? Preferably not theorymon either. I mean, you can say that Deoxys-S has completely outclassed Infernape as a mixed sweeper...but Infernape is still much more used on the most relevant competitive environment we have to date. And while usage might not 100% represent a Pokemon's ability, it is certainly a better indicator of the truth than arbitrary statements from individuals, as experienced as they claim to be.

The difference between Deoxys being better than Blissey in this situation is that banning Blissey doesnt open up an abundance of other special walls, it just removes special walling from the game.

Well what exactly does Deoxys-S's removal open up? I mean even with Deoxys-S on the official ladder for over 3 months now, the standard mixed sweepers have remained at a higher usage.

Hope that cleared things up.

Have a nice day.

It helped a little, thank you Hip.

I am still looking for more detailed explanations, however. I am not at all a fan of vague statements like "Deoxys-S has completely outclassed X" when X is still being used more. Give me more than your "experience" to back that up.

 

[Hipmonlee]

Well I would suggest that ladder has biases in useage. For instance people refusing to use Deoxys or whatever. And as for having no downside, compared with being locked into attacks, whatever downside it has is pretty insignificant. Also now that I reread this post I realise the stats dont show useage of scarfers anyway..

Ok, for an example. I guess you would call it theorymon but its also true. There is nothing I am about to say that I would need to test to know to be the case.

My last team I had on ladder, I had scarf Zapdos for extra cover against Garchomp and other fast sweepers. TBH Zapdos isnt a great scarfer, but whatever.. Anyway, Deoxys E would be faster, it would do more damage except against things who take half as much damage from psychic attacks than electric attacks, and would not be locked into a move after a KO. Deoxys has fewer resistances, but since this pokemon was mainly used for revenge kills (with stealth rock everywhere, Zapdos pretty much had to be saved for situations it could switch in without a hit) this hardly matters.

The only situation Zapdos would be better than Deoxys is when people did not expect the scarf (which to be fair did happen often, but Deoxys of course has plenty of versatility to surprise things anyway).

And Deoxys opens up the option of other speed based revenge killers.

Have a nice day.

 

[Aldaron]

Ok, that's certainly a relevant point, which brings me to the issue I brought up earlier in this thread. I asked how we measure the "extent" Deoxys-S forces a team builder to account for its presence.

Along the same vein, how would you suggest we measure the "extent" a Pokemon reduces the viability of certain strategies?

See, I agree that Deoxys-S has an advantage over most Choice Scarfers in the Speed and Choice departments, because, well, it is faster than most and doesn't have Choice, lol. I do not believe, however, that Deoxys-S's advantage in these two specific areas is absolutely uber material (whatever that is). You mentioned yourself that Zapdos has more resistances, but I point to the simply fact that it has different resistances. That alone makes ScarfZapdos still viable, in spite of the presence of Deoxys-S. Sure, Deoxys-S might be better in the Speed and Choice departments, but those two aren't the only factors considered when slapping Choice Scarf on a Pokemon.

While Deoxys-S might trump most Choice Scarfers in the Speed and Choice departments, it does not necessarily reduce their viability. But, if I play Devil's Advocate for a moment and assume that it does, how would you propose we measure the "extent" of this reduction?

I guess my main point here would be let's ignore whether or not Deoxys-S (or Pokemon X) reduces the viability of offensive teams or Choice Scarf (or strategy / style Y), and concentrate on how to "measure" the "extent" of this reduction.

Any ideas from the community?

Also, I quoted measure specifically for a reason. I don't necessarily mean measure in an objective way, though that could be the path to take. Be open minded when considering measure.

 

[imperfectluck]

How does Deoxys-S not have a downside? It might not have to be Choiced to attain its Speed, but that does not mean the Pokemon has no downside. The simple fact that it has counters means there is some downside at least.

Ok, I'll address every single one of your concerns and if you have more questions feel free to ask again.

I never claimed that Deoxys-S has no downsides. I claim that Deoxys-S has no downsides compared to other Choice Scarfers. I also never claimed that Deoxys-S had no counters, and I do not claim to say that because a Pokemon can be countered, it is not uber. That would be an inherently false statement as even Pokemon like Kyogre, or further down on the power scale, Wobbuffet, can be countered.

OK, can I have some specific examples of this? Preferably not theorymon either. I mean, you can say that Deoxys-S has completely outclassed Infernape as a mixed sweeper...but Infernape is still much more used on the most relevant competitive environment we have to date. And while usage might not 100% represent a Pokemon's ability, it is certainly a better indicator of the truth than arbitrary statements from individuals, as experienced as they claim to be.

I have never said that Deoxys-S outclasses Infernape as a mixed sweeper. I have said that Deoxys-S makes other Scarfers pale in comparison because of Deoxys-S's ability to switch attacks while maintaining its huge speed stat. Usage might indicate how often people use it, yes, perhaps Infernape does indeed perform the mixed sweeping role better than Deoxys-E since it is a great Pokemon in and of its own right. To reiterate what I've said in other posts before this one, Deoxys-E's mere existence in the metagame (in my humble opinion and feel free to disagree,) poses a problem because it performs its job as revenge killer with high speed so much better than almost everything else, and makes it unfeasible to use certain combinations of these OU Pokemon, thus stifling the number of viable strategies out there. That is why I propose the banning of Deoxys-E. It is what I feel why Deoxys-E should therefore be classified as "uber" and moved out of OU. Statistics don't necessarily indicate how good a Pokemon is in usage, either... because statistics are "dead" objects and Pokemon is a game played by "live" humans, not statistics. There are influences that statistics cannot show us, like how the composition of teams have changed over time.

Well what exactly does Deoxys-S's removal open up? I mean even with Deoxys-S on the official ladder for over 3 months now, the standard mixed sweepers have remained at a higher usage.

I propose that that is because the "standard mixed sweepers" have become just that, standard mixed sweepers, rather than seeing their "Scarf" set as often. Once again, they're all good Pokemon in their own right, serving in other roles... that is to say, not being Choice Scarved revenge killers. I propose that removing Deoxys-S from the standard metagame will make those other "standards" have more options open to them (Choice Scarf) as well as allowing more "glass cannon" style combinations of Pokemon that must rely on smart prediction in order to win.

I have yet to address Cosmic Power / Taunt / Recover / Night Shade/Seismic Toss Deoxys-E as of yet, by the way, and I'll do so in this post. This is another latent threat that can waltz through stall teams and beat most of its common counters. Of the 3 normals in OU (I'll deal with NS since I believe it's the more common version and allows D-E to get past ghosts), Blissey and Togekiss get Taunted and stalled out by Pressure + Recover easily. Since the first impression is generally to send a bulky Pokemon in on Deoxys-E... this loss of a chance to take it out instantly with a sweeper means that Deoxys-E has free rein to do whatever it wants to any stall team or even teams that simply don't have really, really, astronomical attack scores. With the fastest Taunt in the game, it gives Deoxys-E the ability to beat most of its typical counters and restrict healing all in one go. It may not be as "threatening" as the sweeper set, but it poses just as much a threat to stall teams all by itself and adds to its unpredictability and versatility.

I am still looking for more detailed explanations, however. I am not at all a fan of vague statements like "Deoxys-S has completely outclassed X" when X is still being used more. Give me more than your "experience" to back that up.

I hope this helped.
Specific statement to end conclusion: Deoxys-S completely outclasses "X" Pokemon at the job of Choice Scarving/Revenging/Cleaning due to its high speed and versatile movepool. I make no claim that Deoxys-S outclasses Garchomp, Heatran, etc. in other areas that they specialize in.

 

[Hipmonlee]

Well, my suggestion was to base it on peoples experience and to have some kind of a vote. I understand the arguments against that idea, but it's still the best solution I have heard.

Have a nice day.

 

[imperfectluck]

We discussed this on IRC Aldaron, with lack of any sort of practical, objective solution, I agree with Hipmonlee and I'd like to base it on the subjective experiences of our userbase here.

 

[Freemason]

Deoxys clearly hits massive speed.
However, beyond having this capacity, to hit hard it needs to be choiced in some way, shape, or form.
The other option has been the cosmic power set.
Sure, it can take on a lot of pokes, but it can also be crippled by t-wave as was aforementioned, I believe.
Furthermore, one can figure out Deoxys set a turn into the game and should have the adequate resources to fight it.
Simple prediction taken into account Deoxys is beatable.
By pure talent, it becomes a harder foe.
I'm struggling to make the vote, but with some measure of finality in my mind, Deoxys should not be uber.

 

[imperfectluck]

Deoxys clearly hits massive speed.
However, beyond having this capacity, to hit hard it needs to be choiced in some way, shape, or form.
The other option has been the cosmic power set.
Sure, it can take on a lot of pokes, but it can also be crippled by t-wave as was aforementioned, I believe.
Furthermore, one can figure out Deoxys set a turn into the game and should have the adequate resources to fight it.
Simple prediction taken into account Deoxys is beatable.
By pure talent, it becomes a harder foe.
I'm struggling to make the vote, but with some measure of finality in my mind, Deoxys should not be uber.

Deoxys-E should be relying on its unparalleled coverage and either a Life Orb or Expert Belt to "hit hard," not a Choice Item.

Crippled by T-Wave? When the standard set runs Taunt? Salamence, Infernape, and the like are crippled by T-Wave, does that make them bad Pokemon? It's been said before, but status should not be an argument when discussing this, as status can hinder just about every Pokemon out there. Figuring out the Deoxys-E set? One turn is all the Deoxys-E user needs to 1. sweep the Pokemon that got left in expecting a Cosmic Power set hoping to hit it hard or 2. Cosmic Power on the switch to a tank and beginning a stallfest.

 

[Stathakis]

Deoxys clearly hits massive speed.
However, beyond having this capacity, to hit hard it needs to be choiced in some way, shape, or form.

On the contrary, life orb deoxys hits 375 special attack, which is not astronomical, but coupled with the ability to outspeed everything and revenge kill with very good coverage while maintaining the ability to switch moves, it is a very formidable threat.

The other option has been the cosmic power set.
Sure, it can take on a lot of pokes, but it can also be crippled by t-wave as was aforementioned, I believe.

because twave will definately work after taunt. Remember, he has the fastest taunt in the game.

Furthermore, one can figure out Deoxys set a turn into the game and should have the adequate resources to fight it.

and what, might I ask, gives those adequate resources while still maintaining the ability to beat out the other top notch threats?

Simple prediction taken into account Deoxys is beatable.

simple prediction is how you take care of scarfers, as they are locked into one move. simple prediction does not beat deoxys, as he can switch moves. yes, deoxys is beatable, but you have to prepare your team adequately, just like any threat. that's fine, it has counters. the reason we want to make it uber is because it outclasses other scarfers with its ability to maintain high speed while still switching moves. because of its ability to outspeed everything and get great coverage while still switching moves, it also manages to completely shut down teams that rely on resistances and speed (a.k.a. pure offense). completely making a style of play useless is not a good thing.

By pure talent, it becomes a harder foe.

anything played with "pure talent" will be a very hard foe to beat. that's not the point.

I'm struggling to make the vote, but with some measure of finality in my mind, Deoxys should not be uber.

If there is still a vote, I'm moving to make deoxys UBER simply because it shuts down diversity by being a good choice over many scarfers, making the scarf sets on those pokemon pale away and disappear. It also completley shuts down a style of play, which further hinders diversity.

 

[cim]

Kyogre does a CM set better than Suicune can. Should Kyogre not be banned?

I'm sorry, but that is a complete logical fallacy. You're using an obviously-Uber Pokémon that does CM better than something vastly inferior to try and claim that people ban things that do one job the best. That's.... no! Kyogre is NOT banned because he's the best Calm Minder in the game, he's banned because he has a broken trait, broken stats, and a broken movepool. Under this logic, we have to ban Abomasnow because it's the best Hail lead in the game!

I still want a response to this: How does Deoxys make offensive teams always fail? By hitting them for Super-Effective damage? In that case, the team should run a sweeper not weak to Deoxys-S. The fact that you have to change your team to account for a Pokémon isn't something unique to broken Pokémon, as anyone with a Heracross or Lucario weakness will tell you. It's another threat, not a "broken threat", especially considering it has such little attacking power and is fragile.

Guys, you can't hit every Pokémon in the game for super-effective damage. It's impossible in 4 moves. Just like you'd make sure you don't have anything terribly weak to Electivire in case he gets a boost, you should do that for Deoxys. How hard is that?

 

[Freemason]

Imperfectluck:
Yes, I was a little stupid there in totally ignoring life orb, as common as it is. Expert belt a little less so, but the idea remains the same.
However, note that I never said Deoxys or any of the other pokes are bad at all. I am merely noting that Deoxys suffers the same detriments as countless other OU pokes. Adversely, though, your statement that some status or another can cripple any pokemon is also correct, though this can not be used to undermine any status either.
Taunt is obviously there, but obviously has to be used properly, lest you want Deoxys to have taken a lot of free damage. And from personal experience, though we're not to speak of it, there are a lot of ignorant people that try to taunt.
In conclusion to your response, allowing any poke, regardless of whether it is Deoxys or not, to set up quite simply sucks. However, allowing this is due to the folly of the player, not the prowess of the pokemon. In addition, most teams carry a phazer which should be able to shut Deoxys out if carrying this as happens with a variety of stat-uppers. Thereby, it cannot be used to support Deoxys being ueber in any way.

A question, life orbed what makes it better than other mixed sweepers? It has a shitload more speed, yes, but at the expense of attack comparitively nonetheless. As there is a slight sacrifice for that speed, and even if it is indeed slight, I'm content with it being OU.

Stathakis: 375 isn't great where other pokes hit 500. Locke dinto one mopve most of the time, but a move that does a helluva lot of damage. It's all about the trade off. They have less speed, but once again, their much stronger.

With your regards to your twave comment, please try not to be so sarcastic. See the above comment, too. Thank you.

Being able to switch moves doen't mean you can't predict them, son. You still generally know the set and that's all that matters.

Oh, and you totally misunderstood my pure talent remark. I wasn't very clear, but don't be so hasty in your will to debate nonetheless. I'm saying by just looking at the pokemon's stats, and whatnot.

And what style of play does it shut down, pray tell?

Another mini-argument for OU is that it's not like Deoxys has a boatload of resists to fall back on or the best ability. It has a couple tricks and a decent movepool, not a broken one. Mewtwo's is broken. Deoxy's, far from it. It's just another threat we should learn to deal with and have had ages to do so. Personally, I've had no problems--and don't worry, once again, I know I'm not really supposed to get anecdotal, but it can't be helped.

 

[imperfectluck]

I'm sorry, but that is a complete logical fallacy. You're using an obviously-Uber Pokémon that does CM better than something vastly inferior to try and claim that people ban things that do one job the best. That's.... no! Kyogre is NOT banned because he's the best Calm Minder in the game, he's banned because he has a broken trait, broken stats, and a broken movepool. Under this logic, we have to ban Abomasnow because it's the best Hail lead in the game!

Deoxys-E may not be "obviously" Uber, but that's what I'm trying to prove, isn't it? What I claim is that Deoxys-E does indeed have the right stats in all the right places to be "broken" enough to affect the metagame in an unhealthy manner, and although this is an opinion of mine, I doubt people would disagree with me when I say Deoxys-E has a fantastic movepool. Abomasnow is not detrimental to the health of the metagame, rather it provides an extra strategy and is thus contributing to the metagame's health. I did not mean to infer that the only reason Kyogre was banned was due to it simply being a "better Calm Minder than Suicune" by any means. Not only does Deoxys-E revenge kill better than everyone else, it makes them out of a job for the purpose of filling the all-purpose revenge killer role.

I still want a response to this: How does Deoxys make offensive teams always fail? By hitting them for Super-Effective damage? In that case, the team should run a sweeper not weak to Deoxys-S. The fact that you have to change your team to account for a Pokémon isn't something unique to broken Pokémon, as anyone with a Heracross or Lucario weakness will tell you. It's another threat, not a "broken threat", especially considering it has such little attacking power and is fragile.

Clearly you have yet to carefully sift through this topic, but for a direct response, having a "counter" for Deoxys-E inherently would inhibit the purpose of having some such offensive teams, as not every offensive team would want to otherwise fit in a Deoxys-E counter just for Deoxys-E alone. With a Life Orb and the standard EV set, it can reach well over 300 Special Attack and Superpower has more than enough power behind it to threaten most Pokemon weak to it, I believe the stats were posted a bit earlier. However, not only does it threaten to kill off a certain style of offensive play, it also poses a threat to defensive teams and restricts the usage of Choice Scarf on the metagame at the same time. Would you say that Heracross or Lucario do all these things at once? I wouldn't say Deoxys-E is fragile either, with 90/90 base defenses, Deoxys-E can take priority moves and just about anything else not Super-Effective and not boosted by a Choice Item and not be OHKO'd.

Guys, you can't hit every Pokémon in the game for super-effective damage. It's impossible in 4 moves. Just like you'd make sure you don't have anything terribly weak to Electivire in case he gets a boost, you should do that for Deoxys. How hard is that?

No you can't hit every Pokemon in the game for super-effective damage, just 72-76% of OU, a number posted earlier here. How many other Pokemon in OU can do that? Electivire isn't nearly on the same scale as Deoxys-E because Electivire needs to get a Motor Drive boost to get a respectable speed in the first place, and still falls short of anywhere near Deoxys-E's speed, and suffers from the lack of BP in his secondary attacks Cross Chop and Ice Punch compared to Deoxys-E. But Electivire is a whole different story from Deoxys-E anyhow, why would you compare the two?

 

[Ancien Régime]

Let's clear up something.

Deoxys-E does NOT have "paper defenses!" It's no tank, but it hits 90 in both defensive stats. I believe defense tiers put it on par with Starmie, which is respectable.

The fact that you have to change your team to account for a Pokémon isn't something unique to broken Pokémon, as anyone with a Heracross or Lucario weakness will tell you.

How can you possibly compare Deoxys-E to Heracross, or even Lucario? Neither of them have remotely the amount of type coverage that Deoxys-E has. Not to mention speed! Lucario actually NEEDS a Life Orb (Lucario really doesn't hit things super-effective, it hits them for boosted neutral damage) so that, combined with its fragility, means that you simply cannot compare Lucario and Deoxys-E.

Just like you'd make sure you don't have anything terribly weak to Electivire in case he gets a boost, you should do that for Deoxys. How hard is that?

Again, faulty comparison. Even with a boost, Electvire is revenge-able (IIRC it only uses enough speed to beat Scarfcross), it's actually more fragile than Deoxys-E, and most importantly, you have to satisfy a condition to get the boost in the first place. Not so with Deoxys-E.

 

[imperfectluck]

Imperfectluck:
Yes, I was a little stupid there in totally ignoring life orb, as common as it is. Expert belt a little less so, but the idea remains the same.
However, note that I never said Deoxys or any of the other pokes are bad at all. I am merely noting that Deoxys suffers the same detriments as countless other OU pokes. Adversely, though, your statement that some status or another can cripple any pokemon is also correct, though this can not be used to undermine any status either.

Of course, statusing is a perfectly viable strategy, as well as playing the best you can to avoid status on your sweepers. Deoxys-E is not without its counters and it's not a Pokemon that can instantly win you the game by itself, of course, but that's not why I'm advocating for its ban.

Taunt is obviously there, but obviously has to be used properly, lest you want Deoxys to have taken a lot of free damage. And from personal experience, though we're not to speak of it, there are a lot of ignorant people that try to taunt.
In conclusion to your response, allowing any poke, regardless of whether it is Deoxys or not, to set up quite simply sucks. However, allowing this is due to the folly of the player, not the prowess of the pokemon. In addition, most teams carry a phazer which should be able to shut Deoxys out if carrying this as happens with a variety of stat-uppers. Thereby, it cannot be used to support Deoxys being ueber in any way.

"Taunt is obviously there indeed" so what makes you think CP Deoxys can be phazed? Although, I'll agree, CP Deoxys-E is a less common and less "threatening" set overall, but that doesn't mean it does not pose a threat. If Deoxys-E's movepool was limited to these kinds of sets only, however, I would not be pushing for its uberness so adamantly, since I believe it is Deoxys-E's placement of base stats combined with its wide movepool and influence as a result of these factors that should place it into the uber tier.

A question, life orbed what makes it better than other mixed sweepers? It has a shitload more speed, yes, but at the expense of attack comparitively nonetheless. As there is a slight sacrifice for that speed, and even if it is indeed slight, I'm content with it being OU.

I am not comparing Deoxys-E to mixed sweepers. I am comparing Deoxys-E to Choice Scarfers and discussing its role as a revenge killer and how comparitively to other Choice Scarfers Deoxys-E is much better due to its speed, freedom to switch attacks, and improved offenses as a result of being able to carry LO/EB.

Stathakis: 375 isn't great where other pokes hit 500. Locke dinto one mopve most of the time, but a move that does a helluva lot of damage. It's all about the trade off. They have less speed, but once again, their much stronger.

I'm not Stathakis, but I think you're missing the point of this topic: we're not trying to compare Deoxys-E to other Pokemon perhaps better suited for the role of Choice Band/Specs. We're discussing the influence that Deoxys-E has on the speed of the metagame here, not attack.

Being able to switch moves doen't mean you can't predict them, son. You still generally know the set and that's all that matters.

Everybody can lose with misprediction, of course. But Deoxys-E is the only Pokemon out there with the speed it has that can switch moves, making it one of the most lethal Pokemon out there as a cleaner.

And what style of play does it shut down, pray tell?

Here, I'd like to ask you to pay attention to the topic, but the answer is: offensive play that relies on resistances to work, not bulk.

Another mini-argument for OU is that it's not like Deoxys has a boatload of resists to fall back on or the best ability. It has a couple tricks and a decent movepool, not a broken one. Mewtwo's is broken. Deoxy's, far from it. It's just another threat we should learn to deal with and have had ages to do so. Personally, I've had no problems--and don't worry, once again, I know I'm not really supposed to get anecdotal, but it can't be helped.

Nobody's saying Pressure is one of the reasons Deoxys-E is broken (although it does help the CP set), but ok, let's define a "broken" movepool as opposed to a "decent movepool. What makes Mewtwo's movepool stand out from Deoxys-E's? As far as I can tell, Deoxys-E gets almost all the tricks Mewtwo does, minus Aura Sphere, Bulk Up, and Selfdestruct. Deoxys-E certainly has a movepool to make most other Pokemon jealous.

 

[Freemason]

Here, I'd like to ask you to pay attention to the topic, but the answer is: offensive play that relies on resistances to work, not bulk.

Okay. I suppose this is the only point then. All the other tangents I've seen, and the ones I've created. The rest is bloody well superfluous.
I can see what you're saying, but i still don't agree with the conclusion.
The premise that it's presense changes the metagame for those that fear it enough to change their team is true, but I don't understand why the evolution of the metagame is reason to ban a poke. Maybe it's my ignorance, maybe me being absolutely obstinate. I cannot tell.

 

[imperfectluck]

First, Deoxys-S stifles "a" way they can be used, to be more fair and accurate. Second, I would also like to get your opinion on how honestly different you think the base of Advance Boah is to this, because I seriously can't see too many differences. To underline a few of the similarities: stall picked up again after 7-9 of a metagame with Boah, which means that 1) it may take longer than 3-4 months for us to say that DX-S presence is impossible to live with comfortably, and 2) metagame shifts can indeed create trends that balance out top threats. I honestly don't see what the big deal is "yet", and maybe that has something to do with the poor job the community seems to do actually whoring things that are supposedly too strong for standard play.

RSE Boah was a new and innovative set that came out of the blue for many players, being an anti-meta set to counter the most popular stall team at that time. Stall finally picked up with the rising popularity of Calm Zapdos and Swampert as a means to counter it, yes, if time is the issue, I'd handily support adding Deoxys-E to the "testing ladder" either now or later for testing and actual collecting of statistics on things like Choice Scarf. It can be said that the current RSE metagame with a heavy focus on Swampert and Zapdos have come about as a result of evolving to deal with RSE Boah, I say that the metagame is beginning to settle too right around this period into a trend of "bulky offense" for various reasons including Deoxys-E, Wobbuffet, and the natural centralization of the game. From the first moment Deoxys-E has been allowed, the Life Orb 4 attack set has been designated the "most common/useful" set and it was a threat that people "knew" was going to enter the metagame. Deoxys-E has been unbanned on Shoddy since January iirc, that's a full 5 months for people to realize its potential (although only recently has its usage gone up, it went up a whopping 10 places in May) and it wouldn't be inaccurate to say at all I think that many people simply refused to give this guy a chance. Unfortunately, with this topic this far now, it might be a little late to just say "push its vote back" and wait for more testing to be done upon it.

Edit: If there's any candidates I'd like to consider for banning in RSE, though, Jump, Tyranitar would most certainly top the list, not just because of the boah set, but because of how extremely centralized I feel the game has become around Tyranitar. Incidentally, Celebi follows right after Tyranitar for me, another Pokemon that I've always advocated the banning of without much success.

 

[sanjay120]

Could you please state which arguments you are talking about?

 

[Vincents.Zydane]

I vote Deoxys-S as uber.

It works too well with a choice item - given it's AMAZING movepool. A Specs Deoxys running Psycho Boost, Ice Beam, Thunderbolt, and Shadow Ball will undoubtbly KO anything in its path late game.

I also find it funny people look at Deoxys-S as fragile. It has the same base HP as Hitmontop, and has higher base defenses than Starmie. Seriously, what the f***? Fragile? Ha.

I say Not Uber. I have it on my team and its not really affecting my wins that much. All my arguments have been posted already by other people so this will just be my vote,.

Why the hell did you vote twice?? I saw you vote on Page 9 already. -.-

 

[Syberia]

Why would anyone run a choice item on Deoxys-S? That totally defeats its purpose as a fast attacker that can rip through an entire team because it both outspeeds everything and has the ability to use all of a huge movepool, without being limited to a single attack. If the metagame had evolved in such a way that Deoxys-S was nearly always Specsed, I don't think that it would be up for consideration to be uber at all.

And the moveset you proposed is never going to get past Blissey, and is absolutely mauled by Tyranitar, especially the ones with Pursuit.

 

[Syberia]

Except they severely limit its potential, to the point that if everyone were to use a choice item on him, people wouldn't even be realistically considering him to be uber.

 

[sanjay120]

Deoxys-E can viably use Choice Scarf?

I'm kind of leaning towards Uber here. IPL has me almost convinced.

 

[GoldDraconian]

Many of the arguments as to why Deoxys-S is uber are, to me, utterly ridiculous.

"It's really fast, therefore it is unfair." "Deoxys-S gets used, therefore it is unfair." "The metagame has changed since the introduction of Deoxys-S, therefore it is unfair." What the hell kind of reasoning is that? Deoxys-S has the audacity to be GOOD at something, so it needs to be relegated to ubers? If this had been something arbitrary like Salamence and Lucario that had been initially banned and later introduced into the metagame, do you really think there would have been no impact? Clearly, the metagame would change significantly by introducing any one of those into a meta that didn't have it. But, so far as I know, there is no serious movement to ban either of them. Why should Deoxys be treated differently?

Being the best at a particular role is apparently NOT grounds for banning, else Blissey among others would require immediate banning from OU. "Invalidating Choice Scarf" (as though Choice Scarf's only use was to make sure that nothing in existence outspeeds you...) is not enough, since there is no reason why Choice Scarf needs to be a good item, and frankly, I have always questioned whether it really warrants the hype. Being versatile is clearly also insufficient to warrant banning. Otherwise Tyranitar, Salamence, Lucario, Dragonite, Garchomp, Gengar, Azelf and others should be banned too, which few to no people advocate.

People seem to have some kind of preposterous expectation that every Deoxys-S should be fully counterable with a single Pokemon, and furthermore, that it must be one of the particular six Pokemon they already have. Very few OU monsters indeed can be covered 100% by a single Pokemon, so I see no precedent for this expectation. If you have only one Garchomp counter, for example, you are almost certainly vulnerable to being screwed by one of Yache Berry, Substitute, Scarf, Band or ChainChomp. Garchomp is arguably not even the most extreme example here, so if you think he belongs in ubers, consider Salamence or Lucario instead and the argument works the same way.

The argument that "I can't play the same team as I had before Deoxys-S came in without possibly losing if all my guys are at low health and the opponent has Deoxys" (approximately) is situational to the point where it's hardly worth addressing. If you build a team with a big hole in it AND allow the opponent to maneuver the game to the point where he can exploit that hole, and he does... is that because the threat is broken, or does it indicate that you just screwed up? In this day and age, you simply cannot counter everything 100%. Deal with it.

I do find the vocal protests about Deoxys's supposed "elimination" of offensive teams hypocritical, as those voices tend not to whine about how Blissey kills off all-special teams or how wallbreakers can destroy all-stall teams. I think most people do tend to find offense-oriented play more enjoyable, myself included, but that is not justification to make bad policy decisions to promote it. If fun were a legitimate point (which it is not, since it is entirely subjective), Garchomp would've been shown the door about a year ago, and Blissey would have been forced to exit stage right more than half a decade ago and never allowed to return. Being able to play any set of 6 that you bloody well feel like is not an objective we have here, because it is unattainable.

With all that said, I think Deoxys-S should continue to be monitored, but I don't feel it's inherently more dangerous than any of the top OUs. It's fast, but the sweeping should get snapped in half by any respectable STAB move, and is ruined by anything carrying T-Wave that lives a hit. The defensive one can hardly be considered broken if Starmie and Cresselia (and hell, even things like Dusknoir and Spiritomb- at least they have useful resistances) are not. However, if it really does turn out that it forces everyone to run multiple counters for Deoxys-S, or counters that are vastly inappropriate for the team, or counters that are total garbage for any purpose other than stopping Deoxys (although this latter is a weaker one, since Magnezone is effectively garbage for almost anything other than killing Skarmory but Skarm seems to be considered "fair"), then by all means, it should be re-evaluated and likely banned. Unless one of those occurs, or we finally come to a consensus on what the definition is for "uber" or "overcentralizing", I see no reason to prohibit its use.

Despite the twelve-foot-long post, however, I do not at present feel comfortable actually casting a vote, as I still feel like an intruder here. If anyone actually bothers to read my post and finds it persuasive enough to influence their vote, fine, I'm hardly the only person to have put forth any of these arguments. But I don't want to actually jump in with a vote since I don't feel like D/P is "my" game to mess with. I offer my perspective only because so many of the arguments against Deoxys are just so unpersuasive and/or unreasonable that they irritate me.

 

[Syberia]

Many of the arguments as to why Deoxys-S is uber are, to me, utterly ridiculous.

"It's really fast, therefore it is unfair." "Deoxys-S gets used, therefore it is unfair." "The metagame has changed since the introduction of Deoxys-S, therefore it is unfair." What the hell kind of reasoning is that? Deoxys-S has the audacity to be GOOD at something, so it needs to be relegated to ubers? If this had been something arbitrary like Salamence and Lucario that had been initially banned and later introduced into the metagame, do you really think there would have been no impact? Clearly, the metagame would change significantly by introducing any one of those into a meta that didn't have it. But, so far as I know, there is no serious movement to ban either of them. Why should Deoxys be treated differently?

Being the best at a particular role is apparently NOT grounds for banning, else Blissey among others would require immediate banning from OU. "Invalidating Choice Scarf" (as though Choice Scarf's only use was to make sure that nothing in existence outspeeds you...) is not enough, since there is no reason why Choice Scarf needs to be a good item, and frankly, I have always questioned whether it really warrants the hype. Being versatile is clearly also insufficient to warrant banning. Otherwise Tyranitar, Salamence, Lucario, Dragonite, Garchomp, Gengar, Azelf and others should be banned too, which few to no people advocate.

People seem to have some kind of preposterous expectation that every Deoxys-S should be fully counterable with a single Pokemon, and furthermore, that it must be one of the particular six Pokemon they already have. Very few OU monsters indeed can be covered 100% by a single Pokemon, so I see no precedent for this expectation. If you have only one Garchomp counter, for example, you are almost certainly vulnerable to being screwed by one of Yache Berry, Substitute, Scarf, Band or ChainChomp. Garchomp is arguably not even the most extreme example here, so if you think he belongs in ubers, consider Salamence or Lucario instead and the argument works the same way.

The argument that "I can't play the same team as I had before Deoxys-S came in without possibly losing if all my guys are at low health and the opponent has Deoxys" (approximately) is situational to the point where it's hardly worth addressing. If you build a team with a big hole in it AND allow the opponent to maneuver the game to the point where he can exploit that hole, and he does... is that because the threat is broken, or does it indicate that you just screwed up? In this day and age, you simply cannot counter everything 100%. Deal with it.

I do find the vocal protests about Deoxys's supposed "elimination" of offensive teams hypocritical, as those voices tend not to whine about how Blissey kills off all-special teams or how wallbreakers can destroy all-stall teams. I think most people do tend to find offense-oriented play more enjoyable, myself included, but that is not justification to make bad policy decisions to promote it. If fun were a legitimate point (which it is not, since it is entirely subjective), Garchomp would've been shown the door about a year ago, and Blissey would have been forced to exit stage right more than half a decade ago and never allowed to return. Being able to play any set of 6 that you bloody well feel like is not an objective we have here, because it is unattainable.

With all that said, I think Deoxys-S should continue to be monitored, but I don't feel it's inherently more dangerous than any of the top OUs. It's fast, but the sweeping should get snapped in half by any respectable STAB move, and is ruined by anything carrying T-Wave that lives a hit. The defensive one can hardly be considered broken if Starmie and Cresselia (and hell, even things like Dusknoir and Spiritomb- at least they have useful resistances) are not. However, if it really does turn out that it forces everyone to run multiple counters for Deoxys-S, or counters that are vastly inappropriate for the team, or counters that are total garbage for any purpose other than stopping Deoxys (although this latter is a weaker one, since Magnezone is effectively garbage for almost anything other than killing Skarmory but Skarm seems to be considered "fair"), then by all means, it should be re-evaluated and likely banned. Unless one of those occurs, or we finally come to a consensus on what the definition is for "uber" or "overcentralizing", I see no reason to prohibit its use.

Despite the twelve-foot-long post, however, I do not at present feel comfortable actually casting a vote, as I still feel like an intruder here. If anyone actually bothers to read my post and finds it persuasive enough to influence their vote, fine, I'm hardly the only person to have put forth any of these arguments. But I don't want to actually jump in with a vote since I don't feel like D/P is "my" game to mess with. I offer my perspective only because so many of the arguments against Deoxys are just so unpersuasive and/or unreasonable that they irritate me.

You know what? You've finally swayed me enough to vote one way or the other. I'm going to vote that Deoxys-S should stay in OU. When I was using my all-offense team and got swept by it, my immediate reaction was "maybe I should be using Metagross/Cresselia," not "damn, that thing's uber." It's one pokemon in OU, that has more than one solid counter. A team that lacks the defensive means to deal with at least a few major threats most likely needs work, imo.

 

[jujuomi]

I have found that deoxes-S is as bad and evil as garchomp. Hard to counter, but once you get the right moment hes out. Deoxes-s is fast but it mostly can't do any damage without a choice item, which makes it vulnerable to switches and the likes. And as long as you can switch to the right counters sometimes, its easy to defeat it. [I know that I shouldn't compare its viablity while including chance, but this game is mostly luck after you've got your numbers)

I vote with a Deoxes -S envoirment.

In my opinion, one of the best stat'd pokemon + brightpowder + substitute + sand veil + stab with high attack dragon/ground combo = uber. I have seen it destroy so many teams. It takes little skill to pull off , all you have to do is scout for a while then when a pokemon dies you switch it in and start spamming substitutes. If you feel like pp stalling you can with ease, it is just to easy.

Look how nicely it fits in. With your type or reasoning many pokemon should become ubers. This is too planned out.