so now can we test?
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DP Tier Discussion - BL and UU (mark 2)
- Thread starter Phuquoph
- Start date
that is a big problem. auto weather is too broken for UU
i think we should give some a chance. but NO auto weather.
"We've always done it that way" isn't a reason to keep doing it now. The discussion on it before was kind of split (I think it was biased toward allowing them slightly, but that could just be me misremembering). It definitely warrants further discussion; it's not an open-and-shut case.
And consider the current rain (and to a lesser extent, sun) teams. There is a reason we don't accept theorymon arguments.
well there's a pretty wide margin between instant and permanent weather and turn-induced weather that lasts 5 turns. Teams would HAVE to carry a weather changer in order to stop Hail Blizzard teams. Also people generally like the 'OU-lite' stigma that auto-weather brings with it. As long as Chansey and Haunter and friends.
Hail is the worse of the two IMO. Snow Cloak+ Blizzard for Frosslass and Glaceon, Blizz for Jynx and Lapras, Ice Body for Stallrein..it's a mess. You'd have to start banning all the ice pokemon from UU just to keep Snover in there.
Sand has some issues too, Cradily/Shuckle's SpDef going through the roof is probably the main issue here.
Basically every team would be Hail team, and those that weren't would be anti-hail teams.
How about we actually test to see if "every team would be Hail team" rather than assuming it? If it does turn out to be the case, there's no law saying we have to keep Snover in anyway because we don't ban all NFEs. If you treat them as Pokemon like any other, then that means they can be banned if they warrant banning. It's like saying "If you are going to allow Gastrodon, you have to allow Garchomp and Gengar because they start with the letter G.".
I'm not saying all NFEs must be allowed, but rather, that we should treat them like any other Pokemon.
I'm not saying all NFEs must be allowed, but rather, that we should treat them like any other Pokemon.
The reason I feel that Hail and Sand would be easier to deal with is that the only thing close to getting the benefits Swift Swimmers do from Rain is Stallrein's Ice Body. Everything else is "Yikes a slightly stronger Ice Beam" or "Oh no my attack missed Cacturne/Froslass". Yes it lasts permanently, but WHAT is lasting permanently? Annoyance, slightly more powerful attacks.
Sand could be a different case due to, as previously mentioned, Shuckle and Cradily, but remember, it doesn't boost their Defense at all, meaning it doesn't make them invincible. Still, I could easily see Hippopotas being banned for rendering all the special attackers near-obselete.
Sand could be a different case due to, as previously mentioned, Shuckle and Cradily, but remember, it doesn't boost their Defense at all, meaning it doesn't make them invincible. Still, I could easily see Hippopotas being banned for rendering all the special attackers near-obselete.
the main thing is we have 2 auto weathers, hippopottas cant come in on an ice team to auto change the weather, and in the case of stallrein, you have to use 2 turns to switch the weather allowing to sub and blizzard in that time, which also never misses.
the only way weather is going to get changed as far as walrein is concerned is via rain, fire cant come in on it to use sunny day, nor can grass, ground cant change it to sandstorm, all have weakness, walrein is also water remember.
the only way weather is going to get changed as far as walrein is concerned is via rain, fire cant come in on it to use sunny day, nor can grass, ground cant change it to sandstorm, all have weakness, walrein is also water remember.
Cradily still has Barrier. And Suction cups.
It's been said when the two auto-weather pokes were introduced, you'd have to completely rearrange UU to keep these two in, which really dont benefit the metagame a whole lot in return. As for the rest of them, we've agreed that they should be different from their OU counterparts to keep away from OU-lite. and as stated, here they are:
-Magmar, Electabuzz, Trapinch, Poliwhirl, Clamperl, Vigoroth, Pikachu, Scyther
I for one dont feel like having this discussion over again. X(
I was away on a short vacation, and there's finally a UU ladder? Yay, now to make a new team! I'm excited to see what it'll yield.
I don't run standard P2, just to let you know, and even if you did run it, it's still in return for an OHKO, and P2 can Recover off the damage at any time (Trace makes it easy too...) And Staraptor will get lost in the mess later in the game when all the heavy sweepers have either set up, or started being at each other's throats. Life Orb isn't considered an option for Staraptor? I'm confused now at what you're trying to say. o_o And most things that run the EQ it supposedly switches in on have other ways of taking it out...and you never mentioned Stealth Rock, which coupled with LO, means Staraptor never really had a long shelf life. It's far from the biggest threat in BL, and of course, like Swellow in UU, people are always aptly prepared for it.
I mentioned RD. Pay attention to my posts, and also that I mentioned the BL bias towards special attackers. But also, take into account the reintroduction of Abomasnow into BL as one of the solutions. Golduck, Lapras, and Lanturn are also actually very common. Empoleon (common, of course) also does well if Toxicroak is dead (rarely until the end of the game, though, and Empoleon can't do much except Toxic). Last resorts include Meganium, also extremely common (I saw it on every third team and was part of the reason I ran Vespiquen as a quick solution not to get tangled in them) and Regice, also seen commonly (both Curse and regular Bolt-beam varieties). So what? In every team you make, there are various threats to consider, and the RD team in BL is one of them. The worst you'll face are Kingdra and Azumarill, combined with the staple Toxicroak, so if you prepare for those, you'll do fine against the rest of the team. Personally, I've found more threatening set-ups: if Umbreon leads, for example, you can bet that it'll set up for Bellyzard or something along those lines, and everything depends on the first two or three truns. One false move, and it's 6-0 for you. I played even before Kingdra was OU, and I faced several of those RD teams. Actually, the threat is psychological (oh my god, double STAB on water attacks, Thunder, nothing can live, how can I ever beat this!), and I've always found that once the big sweeper has died, the rest of the team falls like dominoes because they have little synergy otherwise, or simply just aren't as scary. Remember what I said about how BL is mostly about set-up; the rest of the team is supposed to support the big sweeper and take out any real threats to it before that big sweeper does its job. Boosting Toxicroak is the last to die, though.
Now, I really don't like dragging out issues or debates or anything, but I don't like the vagrant complaining about BL being so super unbeatable and everything overpowered running amok. Realize that the reason I play it is that it is free of the rigidness of maintaining OU or UU "balance", and is actually a little less centralized than either (perhaps not UU, but OU should just be renamed "Big Things Central"). Also remember that these are more or less OU, except not used as much, so it's funner to play without Blissey/Garchomp/etc and the whole speed and percentages war. So if I sound antagonizing, I apologize, but I take this issue to heart. Yes, I am interested to see what Kittymew has to offer, but after clearing up a couple of things about BL.
Edit;; It also implores me to type huge blocks of text about it xD
I don't run standard P2, just to let you know, and even if you did run it, it's still in return for an OHKO, and P2 can Recover off the damage at any time (Trace makes it easy too...) And Staraptor will get lost in the mess later in the game when all the heavy sweepers have either set up, or started being at each other's throats. Life Orb isn't considered an option for Staraptor? I'm confused now at what you're trying to say. o_o And most things that run the EQ it supposedly switches in on have other ways of taking it out...and you never mentioned Stealth Rock, which coupled with LO, means Staraptor never really had a long shelf life. It's far from the biggest threat in BL, and of course, like Swellow in UU, people are always aptly prepared for it.
I mentioned RD. Pay attention to my posts, and also that I mentioned the BL bias towards special attackers. But also, take into account the reintroduction of Abomasnow into BL as one of the solutions. Golduck, Lapras, and Lanturn are also actually very common. Empoleon (common, of course) also does well if Toxicroak is dead (rarely until the end of the game, though, and Empoleon can't do much except Toxic). Last resorts include Meganium, also extremely common (I saw it on every third team and was part of the reason I ran Vespiquen as a quick solution not to get tangled in them) and Regice, also seen commonly (both Curse and regular Bolt-beam varieties). So what? In every team you make, there are various threats to consider, and the RD team in BL is one of them. The worst you'll face are Kingdra and Azumarill, combined with the staple Toxicroak, so if you prepare for those, you'll do fine against the rest of the team. Personally, I've found more threatening set-ups: if Umbreon leads, for example, you can bet that it'll set up for Bellyzard or something along those lines, and everything depends on the first two or three truns. One false move, and it's 6-0 for you. I played even before Kingdra was OU, and I faced several of those RD teams. Actually, the threat is psychological (oh my god, double STAB on water attacks, Thunder, nothing can live, how can I ever beat this!), and I've always found that once the big sweeper has died, the rest of the team falls like dominoes because they have little synergy otherwise, or simply just aren't as scary. Remember what I said about how BL is mostly about set-up; the rest of the team is supposed to support the big sweeper and take out any real threats to it before that big sweeper does its job. Boosting Toxicroak is the last to die, though.
Now, I really don't like dragging out issues or debates or anything, but I don't like the vagrant complaining about BL being so super unbeatable and everything overpowered running amok. Realize that the reason I play it is that it is free of the rigidness of maintaining OU or UU "balance", and is actually a little less centralized than either (perhaps not UU, but OU should just be renamed "Big Things Central"). Also remember that these are more or less OU, except not used as much, so it's funner to play without Blissey/Garchomp/etc and the whole speed and percentages war. So if I sound antagonizing, I apologize, but I take this issue to heart. Yes, I am interested to see what Kittymew has to offer, but after clearing up a couple of things about BL.
Edit;; It also implores me to type huge blocks of text about it xD
Staraptor is threatening in the sense that nothing switches in safely. OF COURSE P2 can kill with with Discharge if it HASN'T switched in and is coming for a "revenge kill". The thing is, most of the times you'll have to sacrifice a pokemon to get another pokemon unscratched. And why the hell are you compating it with Swellow????????? It gets CLOSE COMBAT, something Swellow can only dream of, thus not getting walled by common steels and rocks. Jeez. 100 base speed (@jolly) is nothing to laugh at and is very fast in BL.
If you had replied to me with a reasonable explanation, I'd stop.. but you obviously didn't.
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And for that darn NFE discussion.. what? do we need to vote on anything nowadays? Did it ever occur to you that with all the complaints about NFE roaming free in UU ladder the community might not want it??
If you REALLY insist on allowing NFE, prior elimination is required. Yeah, that means pokemon who will drastically change the play style - uh, permanent weather pokemon definitely come to mind. I don't mind testing pokemon like Chansey, Gligar and Dusclops, but I would prefer to keep it without them. The community interest is far superior then every other "logical" explanation if you wanna keep this metagame ALIVE.
If you had replied to me with a reasonable explanation, I'd stop.. but you obviously didn't.
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And for that darn NFE discussion.. what? do we need to vote on anything nowadays? Did it ever occur to you that with all the complaints about NFE roaming free in UU ladder the community might not want it??
If you REALLY insist on allowing NFE, prior elimination is required. Yeah, that means pokemon who will drastically change the play style - uh, permanent weather pokemon definitely come to mind. I don't mind testing pokemon like Chansey, Gligar and Dusclops, but I would prefer to keep it without them. The community interest is far superior then every other "logical" explanation if you wanna keep this metagame ALIVE.
Oh come on, don't try the "everyone agrees with me so shut up" argument. I was one of those people who originally was opposed to general NFE Pokemon being considered for UU, and I distinctly remember many people being on the other side of the fence then. I don't know where you are getting the idea that your opinion is unanimous.
Even if everyone else were against me, that's still not a reason to avoid debate. It's possible for "everyone" to be wrong. The point of a debate isn't to start out on the side that everyone agrees with, but to end up on it.
When I changed my mind, it was because of a point that no one else had made; it was just something I had thought of. I guess we need a new NFEs in UU topic to get rid of this illusion of majority.
Even if everyone else were against me, that's still not a reason to avoid debate. It's possible for "everyone" to be wrong. The point of a debate isn't to start out on the side that everyone agrees with, but to end up on it.
When I changed my mind, it was because of a point that no one else had made; it was just something I had thought of. I guess we need a new NFEs in UU topic to get rid of this illusion of majority.
Lol, I even said I don't mind testing some NFE, so don't distort my words like that. It's just common sense seeing the entire last page is filled with replies from active UU players dismissing the idea of auto weather in UU. I'm not even disagreeing with you. If you want to test, so be it, but some stuff should be banned right off the bat. I really don't feel like repeating myself so the previous post has it.
But I do disagree on the other matter. If most of the community doesn't want a certain pokemon in the game, provided good reasoning, this pokemon should be banned, Wobb for example. Even if it can be handled, it doesn't mean we should allow it. The thing is, everyone so far gave good reasons why you should ban auto weather. I have yet to see a good counter attack.
But I do disagree on the other matter. If most of the community doesn't want a certain pokemon in the game, provided good reasoning, this pokemon should be banned, Wobb for example. Even if it can be handled, it doesn't mean we should allow it. The thing is, everyone so far gave good reasons why you should ban auto weather. I have yet to see a good counter attack.