Bronzong and Scizor?
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CAP 4 CAP 4 - Attacking Moves Discussion
- Thread starter Sunday
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Point taken but you don't find it odd that other flower pokemon like Cherrim don't learn Weather Ball, and that Pokemon reactions towards weather changes extremely.
Good but I like to point out that concept towards this project neither talks about restricting or enhancing it's offensive options this Pokemon could learn. Based on the conecpt sentence, it's offensive prowess could be very powerful in both stat strenght and movepool or vice versa just as long as it fulfull it's mission as being a helpful teammate.
Note, most of the utility moves this Pokemon is going to learn are either going to be placed within it's level-up moveset and egg move. Now most of my non-stab special attacks are TM, so by default it has plenty of room for it to have it's utility moves. This creature also suffers from four moveset sydrome and 9/10 would use something like: Attack/Support/Support/Support. Now...adding moves like Shock Wave and Energy Ball into it's TM/HM list won't be overpowering and it won't be killing precious space within it's movepool. I understand limiting it's offensive movepool to some degree, but if we're going to stock up the remaining space with crappy flavor moves (excluding the Elemental punches) or limiting some options for it then I'm not all for it. I don't see any reason why such a heavy restricting on special moves is in order when you dumping tons of fist related moves regardless of flavor.
Rock Slide and Stone Edge are TMs, they aren't competing for the limited level-up/egg move list.
As for precedence... I'll agree that we shouldn't obsess about it too much, but completely ignoring it isn't viable either, at least if you care about how people react to the end result Pokemon at *all*. People expect Water types to learn Ice Beam and Ground types to learn Rock Slide, even if a particular one wouldn't use the move much or if it makes it too tough to counter.
Now this is a good point. Still, I have difficulty treating Stone Edge of all moves as a mere flavor move along the likes of Sand Tomb or Sweet Scent. I guess there's a point of ambiguity here: if a generally powerful, competitive level move is of limited use to a Pokemon due to other moves being more useful on a specific Pokemon, should they be treated as flavor moves for the discussion or still treated as attack/utility for movepool discussion purposes?
Heh, I mean Gunk Shot. It's the Megahorn equivalent to Poison Jab's X-Scissor.
Why is everyone so quick to chuck Close Combat on everything? "HAY Guys ya know what would really scream utiltiy? A 120 BP 100 Acc move that amost nothing outside Fighting a a select few normal types get!"
70% of my movepool was TMs. The only ones that weren't were the Punches, Earth Power, Mud Shot, Gunk Shot, Knock Off, Rapid Spin, Bullet Punch, Pursuit, Sucker Punch, and Power Gem.
Woah man, that is a really long list. I thought this was supposed to be a Pure Utility Pokémon, not a So Many Moves It's Ridiculous Pokémon. (Like Syclant mirite lolskatez??!1?1)
I've given this thread a quick runthrough, and really like X-Act's list (at the beginning of the thread) and hinode's (on the prvious page). The second people start throwing in everything from Arm Thrust to Dark Pulse, it's like, doesn't this thing have enough moves already? I think that hinode's list, plus change (I've already expressed my support for Weather Ball, and Swift sounds good) as well as Gothic Togekiss's general consensuses would work just fine.
Also, I really don't think that this thing should be able to get Pursuit. I think enough Pokémon abuse that move as it is.
That list is pretty short, actually. Look at the movelist for Medicham, for instance. Abot the only things I added (in exchange for Psy moves) is Dark moves.
Otherwise you've just got the pretty bland Ball attacks. Honestly, no pokemon in existence doesn't have at least 2 or 3 attacking types outside of its own STABs. Grass, Dark, Steel, and Ghost don't add anything particularly compelling to Poison/Ground, and Rock moves on ground types are given. Just because it's supposedly pure utility doesn't mean it should be limited to its STAB moves. Why would we ,make this a special attacker if the only moves you'll greenlight are Earth Power and Sludge Bomb?
I suppose in retrospect, Energy Ball and crew do curb a lot of would-be Bulky Water counters, which might lead me to replace the Grass options with Bug options.
What post did you read? I never said that.
I really just meant, Payback, Avalanche, Power Gem, Giga Drain, and Flash Cannon in particular all feel quite tacked on to me. They're like water diluting the mixture, not one or two extra spices thrown in to make the dish that much more delicious. Too much stuff on the side, and all the good stuff in the center gets overlooked. That's how moves like that feel to me. I mean, this Pokémon already has a pretty freaking extensive support moveset, no? We're probably just looking at the big picture in different ways.
A bit of a defense post to OctoSludge:
First of all, if you want to change the name, I'm fine. I don't see how 'octo' sounds like something aquatic, of all things, though. Octo simply means 8, just like 'Tri Attack' means 'Attack with 3 things'. You know what an octagon is? (A polygon with 8 sides.) An octopede? (An animal having 8 legs, for instance a spider.) So 'Octowhatever' means 'having 8 of whatever'.
Next, to those people who think it's broken. It's a Poison-type attack for God's sake... the type that hits for supereffective against only one type (Grass), for not-very-effective against a lot of stuff, and that Steel is immune to. How is that broken? Say it KOes something... then the opponent brings in a Steel type, and the other hits are nullified. Or brings in, say, a Poison-type, or a Ground-type, or a Rock-type, or a Ghost-type, and the subsequent hits are not very effective. Surely you'll have a Steel, Poison, Ground, Rock and/or a Ghost type in your team? How exactly is this move broken? Heck, I might even make it hit for 15 BP every move and it still wouldn't be broken... it would have the same BP as Close Combat (a broken move if you ask me), except that too many things resist (or are immune to) Poison attacks. In a thread I've posted somewhere on Stark, I showed that Special Poison attacks hit for the least damage on average (even worse than Physical Poison attacks).
To people who say that it won't be used... well, its base power is greater than Sludge Bomb (90), so if you're using a Poison attack at all, you might as well use OctoSludge. If you're not using a Poison attack, you're not even going to use Sludge Bomb, so, by your reasoning, it's not worth giving Sludge Bomb either.
First of all, if you want to change the name, I'm fine. I don't see how 'octo' sounds like something aquatic, of all things, though. Octo simply means 8, just like 'Tri Attack' means 'Attack with 3 things'. You know what an octagon is? (A polygon with 8 sides.) An octopede? (An animal having 8 legs, for instance a spider.) So 'Octowhatever' means 'having 8 of whatever'.
Next, to those people who think it's broken. It's a Poison-type attack for God's sake... the type that hits for supereffective against only one type (Grass), for not-very-effective against a lot of stuff, and that Steel is immune to. How is that broken? Say it KOes something... then the opponent brings in a Steel type, and the other hits are nullified. Or brings in, say, a Poison-type, or a Ground-type, or a Rock-type, or a Ghost-type, and the subsequent hits are not very effective. Surely you'll have a Steel, Poison, Ground, Rock and/or a Ghost type in your team? How exactly is this move broken? Heck, I might even make it hit for 15 BP every move and it still wouldn't be broken... it would have the same BP as Close Combat (a broken move if you ask me), except that too many things resist (or are immune to) Poison attacks. In a thread I've posted somewhere on Stark, I showed that Special Poison attacks hit for the least damage on average (even worse than Physical Poison attacks).
To people who say that it won't be used... well, its base power is greater than Sludge Bomb (90), so if you're using a Poison attack at all, you might as well use OctoSludge. If you're not using a Poison attack, you're not even going to use Sludge Bomb, so, by your reasoning, it's not worth giving Sludge Bomb either.
Can we start doing something about limiting the list of moves at this rate we will have a list of 50 moves we are allowed to put on this thing, but only like 30 move slots to fill.
Oh come on EM, surely you know how this works by now? We're not discussing it's completed movepool, meerly throwing around suggestions that could possible go into it's movepool, and more importantly which ones we outright don't want to see in it's movepool. It doesn't matter how long peoples lists of moves they wouldn't mind having on this Pokemon are, because after the next poll we will ask certain people to construct whole movepools limited by the constraints that you have mentioned. For now we just need to stop it being broken...
EDIT: For the record I'm completly neutral about a new move.
The only thing I really oppose about it is that 8 hits makes for an insanely long log. Maybe if you compressed it down to say, 4 hits of 30 power each. Heck, I'd support 4 hits of 40 power each given that this is a poison type attack, but that's just me.
If it were me I'd call it Sludge Volley, just because Octo or Octa is a rarely used prefix. Octazooka doesn't have 8 hits, but it does poison the well for any other "Octo/a" moves.
The difference with Sludge Bomb is that it's a TM, so it will never "waste a slot" anymore than Attract or Hyper Beam will. On the other hand, there is a limit on the number of competitive viable level up and egg moves.
I agree absolutely that it's not overpowered, it'd take some obscene power to make any poison attack broken. The mechanics change is my objection; being able to continue damaging the switchin would necessitate a fairly significant change in the battle flow, which would require a lot of discussion to pin down exactly how we'd want to change (does the switch-in take sandstorm damage before entering the field now? when would life orb recoil take place for the OctoSludge user? etc.) and possibly significant coding work.
I don't think we should completely ban mechanics changes in new moves/abilities; that would be needlessly interesting and close off potential interesting avenues. On the other hand, I do think we should approach it carefully and thoughtfully and not just casually change things around for any new move/ability concept that sounds kinda cool. That would encourage newbies to post every single new move idea that comes to mind, however strange or overpowered, and increase the perceptions the perceptions of CaP as pure fanboyism.
Well, I don't know if the length of the log is really that big of an issue...
As I said, I don't mind if people change the name, but I just wanted to point out that Octazooka does not refer to the number 8, but to an octopus using a bazooka (lol). That's why it doesn't hit 8 times.
Lowering the amount of hits for more damage would make the move automatically worse. If, say, 5 12-power hits would KO a Pokemon, the next one will receive 3 12-power hits, or a 36-power move. If they were 4 24-power hits instead, the first Pokemon would need 3 hits to be KOed, and then the replacement would only receive 1 24-power move. Just for your consideration.
To hinode: I agree that the move would represent a bit of an effort to code in ShoddyBattle, so that's kinda the one thing that's really against it.
As I said, I don't mind if people change the name, but I just wanted to point out that Octazooka does not refer to the number 8, but to an octopus using a bazooka (lol). That's why it doesn't hit 8 times.
Lowering the amount of hits for more damage would make the move automatically worse. If, say, 5 12-power hits would KO a Pokemon, the next one will receive 3 12-power hits, or a 36-power move. If they were 4 24-power hits instead, the first Pokemon would need 3 hits to be KOed, and then the replacement would only receive 1 24-power move. Just for your consideration.
To hinode: I agree that the move would represent a bit of an effort to code in ShoddyBattle, so that's kinda the one thing that's really against it.
The STABs are practically unanimous, so I won't touch on that... And I'm sorta on the fence with Close Combat... Yes to U-Turn, and No to Bug Buzz (it doesn't even have wings to vibrate. what's it gonna do to make the buzzing sound--use its hands?)
I think just having the 'x/Punches' and the Slaps (and Force Palm) as well as the TMs most of the other Pokemon get, and a few flavour moves (like Beat Up and Wring Out) would suffice. Like the other peeps have said, DLL is supposed to be a Pure Utility Poke. Even if versatility is good, lets not try and make it sweep too much. It looks too friendly to sweep anyway.
OctaSludge just doesn't sound as cool as the effects, actually. ^^; I'm not totally against it either--its typing is practically useless offensively.
I think just having the 'x/Punches' and the Slaps (and Force Palm) as well as the TMs most of the other Pokemon get, and a few flavour moves (like Beat Up and Wring Out) would suffice. Like the other peeps have said, DLL is supposed to be a Pure Utility Poke. Even if versatility is good, lets not try and make it sweep too much. It looks too friendly to sweep anyway.
OctaSludge just doesn't sound as cool as the effects, actually. ^^; I'm not totally against it either--its typing is practically useless offensively.
It would be a challenge to code a new move with a move effect like OctoSludge. But, I think it's possible. I have a few ideas how I could do it. It would work like a combination of Pursuit and Stealth Rock. The outgoing poke takes damage on the way out and the incoming poke takes damage on the way in, with some multi-hit move mechanics thrown in for good measure. All of those moves are very complicated in code, so I'm sure combining them won't be easy. But, I'm confident I could get it to work.
Personally, I'm not sold on the need for a new move. But, it could be the only Poison attack in the game that is legitimately used. If this thing gets EQ/Earthpower + Gravity, I can guarantee it won't be using a Poison attack EVER -- without a very compelling move effect. But, we could make a usable poison move that isn't as "original" as OctoSludge. Maybe a Poison priority move? Or a Poison version of Body Slam, that has a high chance for PAR? Effects like this could make a Poison move that is worth using, despite the lack of SE coverage.
If we make the new move, I suggest the name "Gunk Barrage". I wanted "Sludge Barrage", but I think that exceeds the limit on move name length (12 letters IIRC).
Personally, I'm not sold on the need for a new move. But, it could be the only Poison attack in the game that is legitimately used. If this thing gets EQ/Earthpower + Gravity, I can guarantee it won't be using a Poison attack EVER -- without a very compelling move effect. But, we could make a usable poison move that isn't as "original" as OctoSludge. Maybe a Poison priority move? Or a Poison version of Body Slam, that has a high chance for PAR? Effects like this could make a Poison move that is worth using, despite the lack of SE coverage.
If we make the new move, I suggest the name "Gunk Barrage". I wanted "Sludge Barrage", but I think that exceeds the limit on move name length (12 letters IIRC).
I like Sludge Volley better than Octosludge, personally. But do we really want a move with 120 base power, 100 accuracy, no bad side effect, and the ability to break through Substitute? Just leave it at 12 for each or lower its accuracy.
Edit:Doug, a Poisen attack would be better against a Bug or Grass Pokemon.
Edit:Doug, a Poisen attack would be better against a Bug or Grass Pokemon.
There are lots of ways to potentially make a worthwhile Poison attack, but I'm not sure how many of them fit the utility theme well. Well, Poison Rapid Spin surely would, but there's already been opposition to that idea and RS barely counts as an attack.
Poison Overheat would have enough power with STAB to be worthwhile, but that's the antithesis of utility. Poison priority would be neat, but I don't really see the utility value there - unless it works like Fake Out, maybe. Hmm.. would that work?
Poison Overheat would have enough power with STAB to be worthwhile, but that's the antithesis of utility. Poison priority would be neat, but I don't really see the utility value there - unless it works like Fake Out, maybe. Hmm.. would that work?
Five 12 power moves is 60 power, and I suppose to match it it would take three 24 power moves, and only leave one 24 power move left. 24 vs 36 is a significant percentage difference, but a nominal practical difference. Whereas if you could KO in two 24 power moves, you would hit the next for with 48 power. Honestly, if you're not going to break the sub in 3 hits, you should probably be using a different move. No need to populate a log with:
McSpiderftw used Sludge Volley!
It's a hit!
lol% damage
It's a hit!
lol% damage
It's a hit!
lol% damage
It's a hit!
lol% damage
It's a hit!
lol% damage
It's a hit!
lol% damage
It's a hit!
lol% damage
It's a hit!
lol% damage
Opponents Dreyfus McSpiderbait fainted!
I would rather suggest something like:
Attack Name: Toxin Wave
Type: Poison
Category: Special
Power Points: 15
Base Power: 80
Accuracy: 100
Battle Effect:
A wave of toxins released from the hands engulfs the foe. It has a 30% chance of inflicting the Toxic status.
Attack Name: Toxin Wave
Type: Poison
Category: Special
Power Points: 15
Base Power: 80
Accuracy: 100
Battle Effect:
A wave of toxins released from the hands engulfs the foe. It has a 30% chance of inflicting the Toxic status.
Doug said it's possible to program it, but changing the switching mechanics or screwing around with end-of-turn effects doesn't sound appealing to me. I'm going to steal Doug's other idea though:
Move Name: Acid Jet
Priority: +1
Power: 40
Type: Poison
PP: 30 (48 with PP Max)
Description: The user rides on a jet of acid to go before the opponent.
:naughty:
Aqua jet.
Move Name: Poison Reel. (lol)
Priority: 1+
Power: 100
Type: Poison
PP: 5 (8 with PP Max)
Description: Sucker Punch @ Low PP and More Power.
The user gets a load of Acid and waits for its prey to be slaughtered.
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