On chance, banning moves and the Garchomp problem

A long time ago in a galaxy not so far away, the folks at Game Freak gave unto us a RPG where we assumed the role as trainers for animalian/anthropomorphic creatures known as Pokémon. And it was good when we were figuring out how to beat the RPG portion (which really was never all that hard, even before people started to figure out they could get almost infinite supplies of TMs and healing items through the Missingno. glitch). Then, people started discovering vs. battling and created a metagame. This took enjoyment of those games to a whole new level, increasing the replay value to almost infinite levels.

As with anything though, the players got accustomed to battling and found ways to make trouncing other players easier. They mowed down teams with Mewtwo, spammed OHKO moves like Fissure and used Double Team/Minimize to gain evasion boosts so that even the most reliable of attacks would miss. This caused an overcentralization of the newly formed metagame, and so certain decrees were passed. Mewtwo was to be given the designation of "Uber," and OHKO/evasion moves were banned. This continued on into the new generations, as Mewtwo got company and a whole tier for Ubers was created. That part's fine. Letting overpowered Pokémon compete in OU is like letting the Yankees, Red Sox and Angels compete in the International League. It's just not fair and an unnatural matching.

But the thing with the banning of OHKO/evasion moves and chance-based hold-items (like Quick Claw) is that it seemed like an attempt to eliminate a very natural element of anything in life from the Pokémon metagame: luck. It almost seems like a majority of battlers out there deemed that they didn't want an "inferior" player winning a battle over a skilled player because they happened to get a few bounces to go their way. Sure, there's still a modicum of luck (CHs and mispredictions being two big examples), but it's still not a respite from how robotic and calculating this game has become in certain circles (here being one of those circles). I mean, when you can calculate a damage range to a hundredth of a percent, it becomes less of a game and more of an accounting exercise.

This begs the question, "Why is luck frowned upon?" or more specifically, "Why are people so afraid of getting out-lucked?" I think that's what it all boils down to. People are afraid of the extreme examples, even though the odds of those scenarios actually happening are miniscule. Let's take OHKO moves for example. Even if we discounted the fact that Horn Drill, Guillotine and Fissure all have failsafe type counters and that there are Abilities that prevent OHKO moves from working (an ability had by 4 OU critters by my reckoning), the odds of one of those moves hitting more than once a match are pretty low. Given the base accuracy of the move given by Game Freak, the odds of the OHKO moves hitting twice in a row is a mere 9%. The odds of two out of three turns resulting in OHKO moves hitting is 18.9%. In the most extreme example, 6 straight OHKO moves being successful is 0.0729%, and that would assume the user has a speed advantage or a defensive advantage (with Leftovers/Black Sludge recovery) over all 6 victims, something that won't be guaranteed. Compare that to the odds of a maxed-out PP OHKO move failing every time. There is a 5.76% chance of 8 straight misses from an OHKO move. Comparatively speaking, there's only a 2.7% chance that you'll score three straight OHKOs. Factor in one miss to that, and the odds go up to 7.56%, and if you factor in the fact that on the miss you have a chance for an absolutely free hit, that's not a great percentage to be playing with. Sure, you might get an outlier in one match, but over the course of hundreds and hundreds of battles, you're not going to fall victim to hax all that much. It also means running an OHKO based team all the time would result in epic fail more often than not. So why be scared to the point of banning every OHKO move? If anything, the only combo that should be banned is the extremely cheap Mind Reader/Sheer Cold Articuno.

To be honest, the question of evasion moves is a little more tricky seeing that one evasion boost brings 100% base accuracy moves down to 75%. Three out of four still ain't bad though, especially when you have very strong moves that have base accuracy of 100% (Earthquake, BoltBeam, Energy Ball, Psychic etc.). Honestly, what's wrong with a little spanner in the works every now and again? Do we really need to have Ice Beam work all the time? Of course, it's a lot easier to spam Double Team successfully than it is the OHKO moves, and the fear of matches turning into severe games of chance is tangible and considerable. However, there are more ways around the DT/Minimize problem than there are around OHKO, making dealing with it a little less headache-inducing. For one, Haze was at least widespread enough in previous generations before the offensive shift in the metagame, and it can be learned by a few useful OU critters. No-miss moves have gained in both power and diversity. The amount of Aura Sphere Lucario and Togekiss walking around are considerable. Aerial Ace is still pretty popular, and Shock Wave, Magical Leaf, Faint Attack and Swift are alright options since they have the same base power as AA. No Guard Machamp shits all over DT users, provided that they're not Ghosts. Even without all those buffs against the evasion moves, you need some luck to get past the first DT unscathed. You need luck on both sides of the coin to deal with DT/Min. So really, what do people have to fear?

Besides, why is Double Team so taboo when you can get the same effect as two DTs on certain Pokémon without ANY of the setup? Garchomp, Gliscor, Froslass, Sandslash, Dugtrio, Cacturne, Mamoswine and Glaceon can get this if paired with a weather inducer and equipped with a Brightpowder. Even if you ban Brightpowder from the equation, you're still getting 25% evasion, and on a Pokémon like Garchomp, that can be huge. So why do these critters, four of which are OU staples, get the extra boost in evasion while everyone else can't even get the inferior option (i.e. one that wastes a turn to set up)? And yet there's all this noise about a Garchomp problem. (More on that later)

Still, for whatever reason, people fear luck and value skill despite the fact that luck is a very, very real part of life. To try and eliminate it is to make something unnatural, less fun and more problematic. I know that people here are trying to make it so that only the most skilled zomg battlers are going to win, but you can't eliminate things from the equation to do that. A truly gifted battler is going to factor in everything, not eliminate the things that give it a little trouble. Besides, skill will beat out luck most of the time anyway. It's very rare that you see someone get lucky all the time, but at the same time, while the more skilled player will win 99 times out of 100, that 1 win will mean the world to the person who gets their ass kicked the other times, and that will keep people coming back and getting better. If they can build on that lucky bounce they got, they can stick around long enough to develop skill, and the metagame is a lot better off in the long run.

Conversely, banning things en masse isn't going to improve the metagame all that much. I've seen all the arguments going on about banning Garchomp, Stealth Rock or both. Those about banning Stealth Rock I find kinda shallow. It all boils down to people whining about not being able to use 4x weak critters or not being creative enough to get them in the field of play. Garchomp, though, people are saying that he's nigh uncounterable, and there could be a kernel of truth to that as is, especially if it's used in a Sand Stream team with it's relatively unfair Ability. However, what if you equalized things and let other Pokémon use DT? Garchomp's Outrage all of a sudden doesn't hurt as much when it's missing 25% of the time. Evasion moves are the best Garchomp counter out there. As for Stealth Rock, well, directly, evasion/OHKO doesn't do anything about it. Indirectly, well, when you have a 25% chance of evading a move after one DT, it helps with a 12.5-50% loss in HP to deal with (i.e., you stay alive a little longer).

Of course, none of this guarantees that people will start using DT en masse, at least I don't think it would. The point is not to get people to start spamming evasion moves, but to provide counters to some of the more "broken" aspects of the metagame without resorting to banning. And besides, shouldn't we be striving to play a game as close to the way Game Freak designed it as possible? It's very honorable to get rid of some very cheap aspects of the game. For example, I'm all for the Sleep Clause, for banning MindColdCuno (as mentioned before), shunting Wobbuffet to Ubers and for punishing the folks who run away from battle when it's apparent that they're going to lose. But to push luck out of the metagame is to make it more of a contest in programming rather than competitive gaming. Right now, the only thing keeping it from being a total calculation fest is the sheer number of Nature and EV spread combinations. Sure, I've put out a lot of math stuff here too, but if you add in all the evasion and OHKO stuff, you have so many different factors going in that you might as well just leave the calculations to the work world and just play.

This isn't a slam on smart playing or skilled players, not at all. If you play a game, you should want to be good at it, and you should want to win. However, eliminating luck completely from the equation only causes problems. I think that the so-called Garchomp problem here is a direct result of those bannings all those years ago. Of course, it took a near-broken combination of stats, typing and ability and a very taxing entry hazard to produce it, but it happened eventually. I think the only course of action should be to lead by example in the world of the Pokémon metagame and at least test out a game with the removal of the Evasion and OHKO Clauses.

Besides, it's better to be lucky than good anyway, right? :p
 
I'd better get a bookmark.

To stay on topic, I'm not sure game freak really cares about min/maxing and uber-competitive pokemon battling. The only real in-game evidence that they are even concerned with balance is that they still make their token ~600 bst dragons have 4x weaks to ice. If they don't care, why should we play a game in their image?

Pokemon should get patches, lol.
 
you seem to have misunderstand how the double team scenario works.

with x being the number of times double team is used, the probability of a 100% attacking being succesful is 3/(3+x). So the accuracy of a 100% move is only 75 after a DT and 60% after two double teams, while sand veil/snow cloak only provide a 72% chance of happening.

So sand veil is actually WORSE than one doulbe team, not the equivalent of two.
 
On one hand, I can recognize that there is always going to be this "sinking feeling" among certain people when they go about playing in ways not necessarily endorsed by the game makers -- certain people, like you. You see that luck is built in as an equalizer and you wonder why overloading on luck is a bad thing. You even suggest that it might be better to give up on calculations, overarching strategy, and "math stuff" once the metagame becomes totally broken, etc.

Have... you even played Shoddy, ever? Have I missed something? Have you caught onto some kind of cosmic revelation?

Personally, I think there are more people who disagree with your PokeUtopia than agree with it. Though, I bet if you posted this on, oh, say, MySpace, you'd get some people to play with you like that.
 
Hazmat's got it in one (and I didn't realize you remade your account man...assuming you're the same Hazmat from my GSC/RSE days?). It's us who have to start doing the design work instead of assuming Game Freak did much of any...
 
This isn't a slam on smart playing or skilled players, not at all. If you play a game, you should want to be good at it, and you should want to win. However, eliminating luck completely from the equation only causes problems.

How does eliminating luck only cause problems? If you eliminate luck from pokemon, you are essentially left with a game of skill. The more skill it takes to win the match, the more often the higher skilled player will win. Why isn't that something to aim for?
 
How does eliminating luck only cause problems? If you eliminate luck from pokemon, you are essentially left with a game of skill. The more skill it takes to win the match, the more often the higher skilled player will win. Why isn't that something to aim for?

I also agree with Light.
You're overgeneralizing things a bit. Unless both players are capable of reading each other's minds and also have every single possible result of every single possible move and set combination not only memorized but recallable at any moment, even Chess has a tiny to middling bit of luck in it.

The other problem is that, the more you remove from the game, the less you're playing Pokémon and the more you're playing "Shoddybattle Online Monster Fight Simulator."

There's also the fact that a lot of players overreact to the "problems" caused by the "luck moves." Case in point, if I use Double Team, the opponent has to miss me (x+1) times for it to pay off (where x is the number of times I've used Double Team). Otherwise, I wasted the turn spent using it. If the opponent misses me once per usage, we're still stuck on neutral grounds as if I never used the move. Let's not forget the fact that I have to sacrifice a moveslot in a game where 4 isn't nearly enough as it is.

On that note, if I use Close Combat, I will kill Blissey 100% of the time. If I use Fissure, I will kill Blissey 30% of the time. Which one is more powerful in this case? What are we so afraid of? Keep in mind, I have to sacrifice a moveslot to use something that has only a CHANCE of killing the opponent. Just the same, using something like a Quick Claw is effectively like holding nothing at all 75% of the time.

So, my first major point is that the moves in question aren't overpowered in any way, they're in fact quite underpowered. Does the problem lie in "Bad" players beating "Good" players by virtue of using these moves when they don't "deserve" the victory? Well, why don't we ban Garchomp, Gengar, and Celebi, because I'm more than certain they've mindlessly let unskilled people win more than their fair share? Is the problem the fact that the moves are THAT bad that we shouldn't even be handing out the option of using them? Well, why don't we ban Magikarp, Caterpie, and Unown in that case? They're not good at all, and nobody should be allowed to win using them by that logic.

The second point is that there are ways of managing each of these things that we're overlooking. How many Skarm or Forry players do we have, here? How many of them are actually using the abilities the designers have granted them? Oh, hey, what do you know, they're unable to be killed by OHKO moves, that's very helpful. Too bad they basically have no ability in today's game.


Game Freak HAS an OU metagame. It HAS an Uber banlist, but we ignore it. That is what is allowed in the Battle Tower. No, I'm not saying we should unban Wobba, because I don't think the playerbase is mature enough to be able to handle it (yes, I know BT and banned Wobba is a contradiction to my point). I AM saying that Yache Garchomp will finally have something to fear when a (no Soul Dew, because it's not allowed in the BT) Latios comes in a predicted Earthquake, outspeeds, and threatens with a STAB Dragon Pulse. It's not like we don't have enough Ice Beams and ghost/darks running around rampant enough to keep vanilla Latis under control, and I think they could help alleviate the Garchomp issue.

Yes, I understand that UU is still undecided with the BT in mind. That's not the issue at hand, though, unless Garchomp somehow became UU over the course of typing this. In this way, the rules become simpler (no complicated tierlists), they become more concrete (What the fuck do you mean people think Mew's not Uber?!), and they become no more silly than the Japanese banning Heracross in 3rd gen and our overcustomized listings. Once you get used to the game, you deal inherently with these issues. We've gotten soft because whenever there's a problem, instead of actually DEALING with it we outright say "Let's change the rules a little" every time until we don't even know what our own words mean, anymore.


I've played this game a long, long time (10 years come October). Over the years, never before has the playerbase made less sense than they do, right now. There's no need to complicate things this far. With my other groups, we allow these things, and they're not a problem. If balance is an issue, then Game Freak will recognize this and change it in upcoming sequels, as they have before. There's no need for us to get all Smashboards about the game.
 
I'd better get a bookmark.

To stay on topic, I'm not sure game freak really cares about min/maxing and uber-competitive pokemon battling. The only real in-game evidence that they are even concerned with balance is that they still make their token ~600 bst dragons have 4x weaks to ice. If they don't care, why should we play a game in their image?

Pokemon should get patches, lol.
While I'm not agreeing with the OP (and at this time I'm not disagreeing either) you're wrong about this. Once you are finished with the main quest in pokemon games the developers have a area that allows you to test your skill. Gamefreak bans certain pokemon in the battle tower, enforces item clause, species clause and in PBR even clauses such as sleep clause exist. There's a reason you can't use items when battling.

While Pokemon is heavily marketed towards children Gamefreak is certainly aware of a metagame, that doesn't mean it's the one we're used to but they don't just create new pokemon, items and abilities at random.
Shine said:
There's no need for us to get all Smashboards about the game.
Hey, no need to make it personal. :P
 
While I'm not agreeing with the OP (and at this time I'm not disagreeing either) you're wrong about this. Once you are finished with the main quest in pokemon games the developers have a area that allows you to test your skill. Gamefreak bans certain pokemon in the battle tower, enforces item clause, species clause and in PBR even clauses such as sleep clause exist. There's a reason you can't use items when battling.

While Pokemon is heavily marketed towards children Gamefreak is certainly aware of a metagame, that doesn't mean it's the one we're used to but they don't just create new pokemon, items and abilities at random.

Hey, no need to make it personal. :P

Judging by some of their design choices, I'd be saying they are pretty close.

They allow instakills and DTspam, which are some of the most lolskill moves ever. Near-perfect evasion and 1hko's are seldom good things in ANY game you play.

Are they entitled to be the end all perfect authority on pokemon (and how it should be played) because they invented it?

If not, then we are perfectly within our rights to make our own rules for our own experience.

If so, thank god they didn't make nukes.
 
I came to pokemon from chess, the game with zero luck whatsoever. I liked it that way, but for certain reasons I find pokemon more entertaining.

anyways, what I'm trying to say, if you can manage to comb through the rants, is that I personally would prefer a game with less luck, as well as many other people. when I get haxed on shoddy I bitch and complain, and I often leave the match. honestly, while luck adds a certain factor into the game, we all know how frustrating strings of bad luck are. you end up trying harder and harder to win, and just getting more and more frustrated, which leads to playing slumps, which are never good.

anyways, on the banning of OHKO moves, an interesting concept brought up on a different forum was the banning of the use of OHKO moves without mind reader/lockon. while this sounds kinda stupid, it makes another strategy viable without adding luck to the game, which means lesser used things like articuno will see more use. the strategy isn't overcentralizing, as it takes two turns to use and the pokemon using the strategy often have to switch into sr, and attack on the switch, another attack as they mind reader, and a third attach before they kill. so it doesn't take away diversity from the game. in fact, it makes more strategies and more pokemon viable, adding diversity to the game.
 
Even if we discounted the fact that Horn Drill, Guillotine and Fissure all have failsafe type counters and that there are Abilities that prevent OHKO moves from working (an ability had by 4 OU critters by my reckoning), the odds of one of those moves hitting more than once a match are pretty low. Given the base accuracy of the move given by Game Freak, the odds of the OHKO moves hitting twice in a row is a mere 9%. The odds of two out of three turns resulting in OHKO moves hitting is 18.9%. In the most extreme example, 6 straight OHKO moves being successful is 0.0729%, and that would assume the user has a speed advantage or a defensive advantage (with Leftovers/Black Sludge recovery) over all 6 victims, something that won't be guaranteed.


This is irrelevant. I was in a match way back when D/P was first released where my opponent's Scarf Rapidash Horn Drilled three of my Pokemon in quick succession. You're saying that, just because such a situation is unlikely, we shouldn't take preventative steps anyway? You're saying that it's better to have a game where this will sometimes happen as opposed to a game where this can never happen?

I don't buy that at all.
 
you seem to have misunderstand how the double team scenario works.

with x being the number of times double team is used, the probability of a 100% attacking being succesful is 3/(3+x). So the accuracy of a 100% move is only 75 after a DT and 60% after two double teams, while sand veil/snow cloak only provide a 72% chance of happening.

So sand veil is actually WORSE than one doulbe team, not the equivalent of two.

Thanks for making my point for me.

You even suggest that it might be better to give up on calculations, overarching strategy, and "math stuff" once the metagame becomes totally broken, etc.

Calculations =/= overarching strategy.

Personally, I think there are more people who disagree with your PokeUtopia than agree with it. Though, I bet if you posted this on, oh, say, MySpace, you'd get some people to play with you like that.

Go to hell.

To stay on topic, I'm not sure game freak really cares about min/maxing and uber-competitive pokemon battling. The only real in-game evidence that they are even concerned with balance is that they still make their token ~600 bst dragons have 4x weaks to ice. If they don't care, why should we play a game in their image?

Pokemon should get patches, lol.

Shine made a great point about that:

The other problem is that, the more you remove from the game, the less you're playing Pokémon and the more you're playing "Shoddybattle Online Monster Fight Simulator."

This is irrelevant. I was in a match way back when D/P was first released where my opponent's Scarf Rapidash Horn Drilled three of my Pokemon in quick succession. You're saying that, just because such a situation is unlikely, we shouldn't take preventative steps anyway? You're saying that it's better to have a game where this will sometimes happen as opposed to a game where this can never happen?

I don't buy that at all.
Anecdotal evidence *rolleyes* You just got very unlucky in that one instance. That's all. Why should we ban moves just because you were the victim of bad fortune once?
 
Funny to see this arguement crop up again.

A couple of thoughts I would like to throw into the pot:

1. While I am sitting on the fence as I always have on this debate, I do feel that re-introducing evasion moves and one hit ko moves would need something on the other side: e.g. rounds. Like how often just because a snooker player wins the coin toss, he can 147 rather than the other player doing it, so they play a number of "Frames" rather than a single game. Best of 3 etc. But then of course we have the fact that the aspect of surprise has gone from each team, so a new level of prediction is required.

2. Building anti-luck into teams and countering all the usual threats could lead to unique ideas and a strong evolution in the game, especially if we are unbanning items (Brightpowder+sandviel garchomp maybe?) remembering the occasional Quick Claw team encounter on Netbattle all those years ago.

3. By some of the same tokens people are arguing, people should play with Item Clause. *raises eyebrows*

4. OK. So you've given all these reasons why it should be unbanned. Instead of infinatly preaching to a brick wall, why cant it be something fresh? New? Instead of trying to convert the masses, appeal to the niche market and see how it grows alongside the normal metagames we have developed.


Remember, Im oh so much on the fence on this, but I think my point 4 is the important one.

Just some ideas, not meant to offend anyone or start e-drama so calm it ;)
 
Dislike of luck is a subjective thing, if you're a poorer player luck will tend to win games for you more often than it will win a game for a good player, on the flipside a good player is more likely to lose over luck than a poor player who is likely to lose without luck anyways. This is just my experience though, I've seen plenty of poor players who were also poor sports crying about getting critted when it wouldn't have mattered and missing with attacks that would do minuscule damage, ect, generally using luck as an excuse for a loss when it was not the cause. It can be critical to a win or loss though, and between equally skilled players it is often a major deciding factor.

Example: yachechomp switches in on my heatran, big deal. I switch to celebi and hidden power the yache off before getting killed. Switch to Starmie, my 100acc move misses due to sand, starmie is killed. I was in a decent position prior to this, and due to one moment of terrible luck, I will lose this game or kill Garchomp at the price of three pokemon, both of which are absolutely dismal prospects.

Luck tends to evoke powerful emotions either way, from my experience. Personally I dislike it, I actually felt sick for a few minutes the other day because I scored crit hit kills on three pokemon in a row, not to mention how infuriating it is to have a team with five viable semi counters to Garchomp and still losing 3 pokemon to it due to the bullshit that is evasion.
 
Kietharr said:
if you're a poorer player luck will tend to win games for you more often than it will win a game for a good player, on the flipside a good player is more likely to lose over luck

And that is what many people seem to miss in the whole luck debate. While over time, the amount of "luck" that people get may well be about equal, because of the fact that good players don't need luck as much as players who are NOT good (yeah, it really mattered that I got a CH on Specs Focus Blast on that predicted 70% Tyranitar switch), the existence of luck literally penalizes good players for being good, becauase since they need less luck, the luck that they do get is more often than not unneded, while the lesser player needs the luck more, and thus benefits from it.


Kietharr said:
Personally I dislike it, I actually felt sick for a few minutes the other day because I scored crit hit kills on three pokemon in a row

Same here; I have quit ladder matches in which I have gotten ridiculously lucky or where I clearly needed luck to win, though I can't say I've done this consistently :(

To be honest, if it's a good player with a good attitude, I really don't mind, but when it's "sasukepwns7345 with ladder ranking of 834 who CHKOes 3 of my pokemon" then I get pissed.

The real question is - how far would we be willing to go to minimize luck?

Would we ban all less than 100% accurate moves? (making Breloom and Smeargle the only viable sleepers lol?) Would we change game mechanics to remove critical hits/certain move effects (10% para chance on T-Bolt, etc, though not stuff like 30% effects or Serene Grace because there is a strategic element to it i.e. "managed luck"). Would we ban all Sand Veil pokemon, or ban Tyranitar and Hippowdon?
 
Thanks for making my point for me.

Uh, NO. He did not make your point for you. He was pointing out that Sand Veil raises your evasion 20%; one DT raises it 25%. Brightpowder then raises it a mere 10% up to 30%. So, in a way, using Sand Veil and BP together is more efficient than one Double Team, but by no means two (the second raises it to 40%).

Indirectly, well, when you have a 25% chance of evading a move after one DT, it helps with a 3.125-50% loss in HP to deal with (i.e., you stay alive a little longer).

Just wanted to point that out, even though it's pointless.

I do agree with your point that luck is feared even though it's a very real thing. It makes the metagame seem more like an artificial world where people come to hide from the real world, at least to me. I can't think of why I would need to point out that luck is a part of real life (and frequently).
 
@OP: You are clearly part of a minority as the vast majority of players do not want to play with OHKO and Evasion.

Saying that Pokemon battling involves calculations is always going to be true no matter what you change. Whether it is calculating accuracy (to be honest I think accuracy modifiers are simply a bad idea on GameFreak's behalf), calculating damage or calculating the odds of an opponent's reaction (which obviously is often very difficult to gauge), calculations are going to remain a very significant part of Pokemon battling.

I assume you have the read the arguments on both sides in the Policy Review, and although you have expressed your opinion very well I don't think you are about to convert anyone to your opinion on the matter, especially since it is likely that the arguments against everything you are stating here are probably slowly going to develop in this thread.

Firstly I think OHKO moves are crossing a certain line when it comes to playing odds. As I think I stated in the OHKO thread in PR, Kyogre's Thunder seems to paralyse quite often whenever it hits in Uber matches. In fact, it paralyses 30% of the time when it hits. If you have played Ubers regularly during Adv or D/P then you will be aware that this "seems" to happen often enough so that it becomes somewhat frustrating. However, a paralysed Pokemon has not been KOed, only crippled. It is likely that the Pokemon taking Kyogre's Thunder has been designed by you; the team builder; to withstand them and presumably beat Kyogre. In fact, in many cases you are probably prepared for the paralysis too. But, did you know that none of the Sturdy Pokemon available can safely switch into Kyogre? Did you know that Kyogre can use Sheer Cold? Did you know that Sheer Cold has the same chance of hitting as Thunder does paralysing (in fact Sheer Cold works on far more Pokemon than Thunder does!)? Obviously this is just one example, but there are a number of other Pokemon that cannot be safely switched into by Sturdy Pokemon who could potentially carry a 30% chance at wiping what could be an important Pokemon off the board.

My personal opinion on "luck" is that is that moves and strategies that only have one effect which causes a chance of under 50% (example all of the OHKO moves and all of the evasion moves) should be banned.

I suppose that includes Sand Veil, Snow Cloak, Brightpowder and Quick Claw too. I would probably prefer it if they were banned, in fact. However, based on the fact that what I feel is the majority of the Pokemon playing community accepting the presence of these "strategies", I don't bother complaining (loudly). Although your opinion may be viable, it is neither objective (although this could be said about a lot of things) nor widely accepted. This means you will probably be restricted to playing with a much smaller player pool unless you choose to adapt and accept what the metagame brings (I assume you do anyway).

I agree with IggyBot that a skill based game (or at least a game significantly orientated towards skill) is a much better aim than one with strategies that rarely work but when they do can be devastating (which is what I am going to define luck as being - winning/gaining advantage against the odds).
 
Well, I was playing around with ideas for what a luck-free Pokemon game would feel like, and it would actually be quite interesting. Now obviously this is all hypothetical (though if someone wanted to, it could be written), but some of the ideas were:

- Partial status effects. IE, flamethrower put a 10% burn on you, which would deal very little damage and barely reduce your attack.
- Partial status stacks until you have 100% total
- No crits. +crit attacks instead ignore defensive buffs on the target (like crits do). Pokemon with boosted critical ignore defensive buffs on the target, again like crits do.
- Certain moves are tagged "inaccurate" and "very inaccurate". Certain states will make inaccurate moves miss (automatically). For example one Double Team makes VI moves miss, a second makes I moves miss. Sand Veil makes I moves miss, etc. In normal conditions, everything always hits.
- Flinching is being figured out; a damage reduction if you move first was the first plan, but then it was realized Togekiss would be mostly invincible.

It's a neat idea. I, like a lot of the others here, came from a chess background and believe in games of skill, not chance. If you want a game of chance, there are plenty.
 
Calculations =/= overarching strategy.

Oh, good, we agree then. I never said they were the same thing, guy.



Go to hell.
No u.

Thanks for bringing your argument down to grade school level, UltimoVenusaur, by the way. Nice touch. You're just so clever and mature.



Anecdotal evidence *rolleyes* You just got very unlucky in that one instance. That's all. Why should we ban moves just because you were the victim of bad fortune once?
Excuse me?

If something can happen, then eventually it will, given enough chances. People are struck by lightning, eaten by sharks, fall down elevators, drown in their sleep, die in plane crashes and win the lottery. Happens every year. The chances are so very, very low, but they still happen.

If that guy had a Rapidash OHKO 3 dudes in a row, then he did, and he was unlucky.

Let me clue you in on something... Lapras. Together with it's normal sweeper moveset, if you add on Sheer Cold, suddenly nothing can stand against it, given some luck. All the Sturdy guys fall to it's everyday attacks, and everything else has a 30% chance of death unless it can kill Lapras first.

Personally, I think fighting against something like that would SUCK BALLS. But maybe you like that kinda stuff? I don't claim to know.

Also, all of you people talking about taking ALL the luck out of Pokemon are really crossing the line. That's not Pokemon anymore... even I will freely admit that. Go play chess.

The other problem is that, the more you remove from the game, the less you're playing Pokémon and the more you're playing "Shoddybattle Online Monster Fight Simulator."

I agree. And while I don't have an adamant hatred for OHKO moves, I'd still rather not play with them if I had the choice. Which, right now, I do. Double Team is the same for me. I'm part of a minority that thinks Stealth Rock sucks balls too, but there are ways to deal with that and play around it that don't involve Random Number Generators, so... yes, I still agree with this. AND, as you know, Policy Review has decided to unban all the "lower ubers" to test them out and see if they break the metagame. My opinion is that the majority of them actually won't. My only misgiving is that it seems unfair that Latias and Latios don't break species clause, but... what can you do? Maybe that will be adopted as a rule in time. Maybe it won't have to! Let's find out, I say.

Just the same, using something like a Quick Claw is effectively like holding nothing at all 75% of the time.
Nothing at all...
Nothing at all...
Nothing at all...

Game Freak HAS an OU metagame. It HAS an Uber banlist, but we ignore it. That is what is allowed in the Battle Tower. No, I'm not saying we should unban Wobba, because I don't think the playerbase is mature enough to be able to handle it (yes, I know BT and banned Wobba is a contradiction to my point). I AM saying that Yache Garchomp will finally have something to fear when a (no Soul Dew, because it's not allowed in the BT) Latios comes in a predicted Earthquake, outspeeds, and threatens with a STAB Dragon Pulse. It's not like we don't have enough Ice Beams and ghost/darks running around rampant enough to keep vanilla Latis under control, and I think they could help alleviate the Garchomp issue.

Yes, I understand that UU is still undecided with the BT in mind. That's not the issue at hand, though, unless Garchomp somehow became UU over the course of typing this. In this way, the rules become simpler (no complicated tierlists), they become more concrete (What the fuck do you mean people think Mew's not Uber?!), and they become no more silly than the Japanese banning Heracross in 3rd gen and our overcustomized listings. Once you get used to the game, you deal inherently with these issues. We've gotten soft because whenever there's a problem, instead of actually DEALING with it we outright say "Let's change the rules a little" every time until we don't even know what our own words mean, anymore.


I've played this game a long, long time (10 years come October). Over the years, never before has the playerbase made less sense than they do, right now. There's no need to complicate things this far. With my other groups, we allow these things, and they're not a problem. If balance is an issue, then Game Freak will recognize this and change it in upcoming sequels, as they have before. There's no need for us to get all Smashboards about the game.

I liked this a lot.

I think what people are missing is that the distinguished members of Smogon ARE TRYING to get Shoddy back to the karts. All "lesser ubers" are going to be tested, IVs will be restricted on legendaries, OHKO, DT, SR, species clause, etc., etc., etc.! They are going to try to give us a game as close to Diamond and Pearl as they can without handing us something that feels cheap or broken.

I think what really gets old Venusaur's tights in a bunch is that he thinks they don't mean it when they say they're going to test all these things, haha.
 
Why is taking luck out of "pokemon" suddenly enough to not make it "pokemon"

Why do we have to accept that luck is a definitional aspect of competitive pokemon, considering that competitive pokemon the way we play is not an integral part of the original game?
 
10% status? swift-like accuracy on moves on which it was not intended? how are these things NOT fanboy invention?

Also, yes, I know Kittymew was the person suggesting that stuff, but that was what that statement was most directed toward.
 
I'm all for the Sleep Clause, for banning MindColdCuno (as mentioned before), shunting Wobbuffet to Ubers and for punishing the folks who run away from battle when it's apparent that they're going to lose
I think this last sentence synthetize how fanboysh is this point of view.

Have you ever played chess?

Most highlevel chess matches end because one of the 2 players surrender, seeing that if the opponent does not make a mistake (which is impossible at those levels) he will logically lose. And i'm not talking about newbies. I'm talking about masters.

Surrending when loss is inevitable means recognise the opponent have won and have been superior. Nothing else. Of course, if you are one of those children who want the triumph and the mock over the opponent instead of a loyal and mature competition, well...
 
Are they entitled to be the end all perfect authority on pokemon (and how it should be played) because they invented it?

If not, then we are perfectly within our rights to make our own rules for our own experience.
Only when playing in a official Nintendo tournament. Otherwise no, and we are "perfectly within our rights to make our own rules for our own experience". I was just disagreeing that gamefreak is not aware of a metagame and that they create pokemon, items and abilites specifically to enhance, alter the metagame that exist. Wether it be "ours" or "theirs".

If gamefreak is anything like the devs of other competitive games they are aware of what competitive players think of the design choices they make.
 
I think what really gets old Venusaur's tights in a bunch is that he thinks they don't mean it when they say they're going to test all these things, haha.

i agree, im pretty sure i included both evasion and ohkos in my order of operations thread, not sure what this is even an issue
 
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