DP Tier Discussion - BL and UU (mark 2)

[gengod]

I find it somewhat funny that people always mention Omastar in Rain but never mention Gorebyss who has 2 less Special Attack and roughly the same Speed.

Jrrrrrrr Kabutops doesnt exactly get walled by Meganium iirc a Swords Danced Life Orbed Stone Edge will OHKO Meganium, eliminating the need for XScissor or Aerial Ace.

 

[stvn]

well I have only seen Gorebyss once, and its kinda more counterable anyway because of no AncientPower (and much less Defs)... but it is overpowered too :P

 

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

I think testing Kadabra is worth a shot. Though Kadabra has slightly better stats than Mr. Mime (that extra speed is notable), Mr. Mime has a superior movepool (with moves like Hypnosis, Baton Pass, and Thunderbolt), and a superior ability. Glaceon's Ice Beams outpower Kadabra's Psychics, and Rotom is nearly as powerful but also gets dual STAB. The scariest thing about Kadabra, in my eyes, would be Trick, but it's not as if we lack those in UU.

Kadabra should not really be compared to Mr. Mime IMO, it should be compared to Jynx.

Jynx has 95/115 speed and special attack, slightly lower than Kadabra's 105/120, but the slight deficit in special attack is more than made up for with the superior special movepool. It has one of the best STAB options around in Ice Beam, as well as Focus Blast in addition to Kadabra's options, who only has the shitty Charge Beam and Shock Wave over Jynx. Jynx also has arguably the better support options in Lovely Kiss, Mean Look and Perish Song, although Encore and Trick are admittedly very tasty options.

Having said that, where the hell is the Jynx abuse? If Kadabra would really be as dominating in UU as people are saying, surely Jynx would be filling that role with reasonable adequacy. I for one am not surprised at the lack of Jynx as despite the wealth of options and decent offensive potential it is simply too fragile to make any significant impact there. And if you thought Jynx's 65/35/95 defenses were poor, wait until you see Kadabra's craptastic 40/30/70 defenses. At least Jynx has the ability to take a couple of special hits here and there.

 

[umbarsc]

Kadabra has only slightly better stats than Mr. Mime? Rotoms nearly as powerful? Are you kidding? I'm going to assume you were comparing these pokemon to Abra and not Kadabra. Kadabra has a max Special Attack of 372 and a max Speed of 339. Mr. Mime has 328/306 as its max in Special Attack and Speed respectively and Rotom only has 317/309. How do these even come close to Kadabra in terms of offense?

Remember, the only thing that matters is % difference.

Kadabra has only 13% more special attack than Mr. Mime. That's about the equivelent of Wise Glasses. In exchange for that, Mr. Mime is a lot more unpredictable, and gets Thunderbolt and Hypnosis making it harder to counter and can also BP away from its counters.

Kadabra has 17% more special attack than Rotom, but remember, Ghost/Electric STAB is far superior to Psychic STAB, which allows it to break through walls easier.

It's not all about raw numbers. To say they are not "even close" is a gross exaggeration.

Edit: You're right Lemmiwinks, I forgot all about Jynx being UU. I've only seen it used about once or twice.

 

[Tsukikage]

I think a major reason for lack of Jynx usage is because of Stealth Rocks. Kadabra has better (not a whole lot better, but still better) stats than Jynx, without having that weakness to Stealth Rocks. With that weakness though, comes great STAB on Ice Beam, which I fear may be overlooked.

 

[umbarsc]

Does Stealth Rocks even matter when you're not taking a hit anyways?

 

[gengod]

Remember, the only thing that matters is % difference.

If the only thing that mattered was % difference i'm sure Glaceon would be OU in place of Pokemon like Infernape or Azelf.

Mr. Mime is a lot more unpredictable, and gets Thunderbolt and Hypnosis making it harder to counter and can also BP away from its counters.

Kadabra isn't exactly predictable in itself as it can run quite a few sets fairly effeciently. Personally I don't even get why you're comparing Mr. Mime to Kadabra as Mr. Mime is never used offensively anyway.

Kadabra has 17% more special attack than Rotom, but remember, Ghost/Electric STAB is far superior to Psychic STAB, which allows it to break through walls easier.

As far as walls are concerned Kadabra has an easier time breaking through most walls than Rotom does due to it's higher Special Attack. The only walls I can think of that Rotom would have an easier time with are Hypno and Grumpig.

Does Stealth Rocks even matter when you're not taking a hit anyways?

Of course it matters when it limits the amount of switches you have. And you shouldn't make it seem as though sweepers are Pokemon impervious to being hit on a switch. Kadabra may have terrible defenses but in turn Jynx also has a weakness to Stealth Rock which makes up for its somewhat higher defences.

 

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

Does Stealth Rocks even matter when you're not taking a hit anyways?

Of course not. I would've mentioned Jynx's obvious Stealth Rock weakness if it was relevant, but I don't see it for the purposes of comparing her with Kadabra.

Kadabra and Jynx both have a grand total of 2 resistances each. But with those pathetic defenses, even resistances count for little. Just for reference, TechnoTop and CBLee's Mach Punch 2HKOs Kadabra, so it can't even come in on the weakest of Fighting attacks you're likely to encounter. That leaves only weak Psychic attacks from special walls such as Grumpig and Hypno, but the last thing Kadabra wants to come in on is something that it cannot even 2HKO without a Choice item. At the very least Jynx can come in on predicted Ice Beams thanks to its impressive special defense, even with Stealth Rock down.

 

[umbarsc]

If the only thing that mattered was % difference i'm sure Glaceon would be OU in place of Pokemon like Infernape or Azelf.

I meant in terms of comparing stats (that aren't speed), obviously.

As far as walls are concerned Kadabra has an easier time breaking through most walls than Rotom does due to it's higher Special Attack. The only walls I can think of that Rotom would have an easier time with are Hypno and Grumpig.

I think Hypno and Grumpig and prominent enough to make that a big advantage Rotom has. Kadabra's only advantage is on certain neutral walls, like Gastrodon and Lanturn. However, Rotom's STAB hits Grumpig, Hypno, Mantine, Lapras, Claydol Blastoise, and Noctowl harder, which I think is a greater advantage over Kadabra.

However, I do admit that Kadabra's Focus blast is useful for hitting Probopass and Clefable harder.

 

[gengod]

Kadabra does not learn Focus Blast...Alakazam does. Rotoms STABs hit those few pokemon harder than Kadabra, but Kadabra can still manage to hit most of them for Super Effective damage which means he still isn't going to have a hard time getting past them.

Either way i'm not arguing against Kadabra in UU because I do believe it wouldn't overpower the tier I just did not like the way you structured your argument for its inclusion. However, I do dislike the notion of non-unique NFEs (however subjective this may be) being included and Kadabra falls into that category.

 

[Trust]

Does Stealth Rocks even matter when you're not taking a hit anyways?

I've used Jynx a lot in UU and in OU, and she has a really bad time with Stealth Rock down. You won't be able to switch in as much as you would like because you are losing 25% each time, which doesn't help to take an special hit. Furthermore, you shouldn't forget "Luna" (Lovely Kiss, Substitute, Calm Mind and Psychic), which relies in her Special Defense, so that 25% drop is quite nasty.

However, the worse problem for Jynx is priority. Hitmontop, Persian or Hitmonlee hurt a lot with their priorities moves (Bullet Punch, Fake Out, Mach Punch...), and Hitmontop is everywhere nowadays (You will read it in July statistics, where it will be in the top 3 with Steelix and Clefable).

To sum up, I find that Jynx has more problems in UU with Stealth Rock everywhere to counter Scyther or Venomoth and with priority than in OU, where Steath Rock is losing usage because of Taunt, priority moves are less used, and it's a great revenge killer to the most threatening pokemon in OU, Yache Garchomp, with is OHKO'd which an Ice Beam by Scarf Jynx.


About statistics, what do you wait to see? I think that the top 10 could be the next:

1. Hitmontop
2. Steelix
3. Clefable
4. Toxicroak
5. Kabutops
6. Claydol
7. Froslass
8. Leafeon
9. Rotom
10. Meganium

1-3 could change, but they dominate the game.
4-7 are very used, and will be there.
8-10 will be less predectible, others like Hitmonlee, Persian or Hypno could appear there too.

 

[Aerodactyl Legend]

However, the worse problem for Jynx is priority. Hitmontop, Persian or Hitmonlee hurt a lot with their priorities moves (Bullet Punch, Fake Out, Mach Punch...), and Hitmontop is everywhere nowadays (You will read it in July statistics, where it will be in the top 3 with Steelix and Clefable).

And there we go. You'll know that the priorities are coming. Stay and you would take a nasty hit from BP. Most would see them coming, so you'd probably switch, thus gaining another 25% loss of Jynx's health.

 

[Stagnant]

About statistics, what do you wait to see? I think that the top 10 could be the next:

1. Hitmontop
2. Steelix
3. Clefable
3 1/2. Poliwrath
4. Toxicroak
5. Kabutops
6. Claydol
7. Froslass
8. Leafeon
9. Rotom
10. Meganium

1-3 could change, but they dominate the game.
4-7 are very used, and will be there.
8-10 will be less predectible, others like Hitmonlee, Persian or Hypno could appear there too.

Poliwrath has become a dominating figure in UU and I as of right now am curious to peoples thoughts on him.

For me, Poliwrath is most definitely one of the hardest pokes to counter in UU. The only effective was to take him out I've found was to Encore his Substitute (if he even uses it), Use a Poliwrath of your own (which hardly cuts it, Toxic (Spikes) is honestly your best bet (though poison types are fairly common to absorb TS), or use a "sacrifice" to hopefully kill the sub and take it down.

Heh, like the Garchomp of UU. Well, it is even easier to setup than Garchomp really. He can come in on ALL UU rapid spinners bar Claydoll carrying Psychic and can sweep more effectiviely than any other poke.

I'm curious to here other peoples oppinions before and after the usage stats come out.

 

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

What exactly is this Poliwrath set you are finding so hard to counter? I'm curious because almost every Poliwrath I face is the Hypnosis/Substitute/ Focus Punch/Waterfall variant, which isn't hard to counter at all.

 

[Aerodactyl Legend]

Poliwrath has become a dominating figure in UU and I as of right now am curious to peoples thoughts on him.

For me, Poliwrath is most definitely one of the hardest pokes to counter in UU. The only effective was to take him out I've found was to Encore his Substitute (if he even uses it), Use a Poliwrath of your own (which hardly cuts it, Toxic (Spikes) is honestly your best bet (though poison types are fairly common to absorb TS), or use a "sacrifice" to hopefully kill the sub and take it down.

Heh, like the Garchomp of UU. Well, it is even easier to setup than Garchomp really. He can come in on ALL UU rapid spinners bar Claydoll carrying Psychic and can sweep more effectiviely than any other poke.

I'm curious to here other peoples oppinions before and after the usage stats come out.

Poliwrath is great. Good Hp and Defenses, with an attack that could get better using Bulk Up or Belly Drum (Belly-Wrath anyone?). His typing allows him to be a nice switch in as well (and so does Water Absorb, healing 25% of it's health). There's also some Hypnosis support as well.

 

[umbarsc]

Your viewpoint wasn't logical or sound. That's why everybody was arguing against it. Your claim of some inherent purpose of the UU tier as the reason why NFEs aren't allowed is simply false and there is no arguing against that. You're right, you weren't presenting facts, you were presenting a logical sequence based off of an incorrect assumption of the point of UU. Even though your logical steps made sense, the original foundation from where that logic started was wrong. THAT is what we're saying. Nobody is being insulting, we are trying to encourage good debate on our opinions- but that means the facts need to be in line first. Making incorrect assumptions about something generally means that you don't understand something fully. I'm really not trying to be a jerk here but you are still insisting that you're right and it bothers me because someone might take you seriously. Nothing was opinion in our argument except for your understanding of what the tiers should be, don't trivialize your misunderstanding of the UU tier by saying that this thread has lots of opinions in it. I realize that this thread is completely opinion based- which is exactly why we need to keep incorrect assumptions about the tiers like the one you made out of it. False facts skew opinions. I suggest you re-read this:

See what I did there? Yeah, it's basically what you are doing. You are still claiming that you are right. I don't know when some higher power said "umbarsc is wrong, jrrrrrrr is right", could you direct me to that post please. The way I see it, the debate is about why video stores rent movies.

umbarsc: Video stores rent movies so people can watch the movie without having to buy it.

jrrrrrrr: Video stores rent movies so people can watch movies from the video store.

I'll admit that my argument wasn't factually sound, but it was logically sound.

If usage isn't being used as a direct means of measuring power, why is it used?

Basically, that is what I mean when I say opinion was used. My response was "Because UU was created with some non-competitive reasoning in mind." Your response is... what is it exactly?

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

The best example of why your argument is bullshit is Tentacruel. Its usage skyrocketed when people realized that it was one of the best counters to SR/Spikes/Toxic Spikes and was also blazing fast to lay its own Toxic Spikes. When this happened, it became OU. Since it was OU, it no longer had a place in a metagame centered on giving Pokemon that are Under Used a place to shine.

When people are tired of seeing the same OU bullshit, they switch to UU, which is just as centralized, but in a different manner, with a different set of usable Pokemon. If somehow, Magikarp got used on every team, it would stop being usable in UU despite the fact that it lacks power, because UU exists to separate the more often used Pokemon from the pack. The power rift is a simple unintended side effect. It's simple that the more powerful Pokemon would be used more often, and as such, the Under Used Pokemon have less power.

It all comes down to the fact that Under Used was originally never meant to be a competitive tier. When people started deciding to play it, then the BL tier had to be created in order to create a more varied and balanced metagame. The end result is that of course UU is centralized like OU, just around different Pokemon.

It's easy to gauge power in a fighting game- there are certain ironclad statistics that gauge exactly how powerful a character is, and that generates tiering. And of course, that tiering can change when someone comes up with a new way to play a character that makes them more useful, and thus makes them rise in usage. However, since it is very difficult to fully gauge power in Pokemon, it gets left to the players to decide what's more powerful. Naturally, the more powerful Pokemon would see more usage in OU, and those without power but with useful abilities (Tentacruel) also rise in tiering due to those abilities.

Technically, usage is an indirect measure of power for the simple reason that there is no way to directly measure a Pokemon's power like there is in fighting games. Things like item usage, metagame trend shifts, and new movesets cause the tiering to shift constantly. The best way to measure a constantly changing metagame is to watch who's using what. It's simply impractical to try and judge power in any other way.

Things like Ubers and BL are a different story. If I had to describe Ubers and BL, I'd say that they are the members of OU and UU that are proven to be far more powerful than their counterparts through either usage or applied skills, and therefore decrease the viable options in a metagame. They are simply ban lists that allow for more varied metagames- nothing more, nothing less. The fact that they have (or can) developed into viable metagames is an unintended side effect- They're intended to be imbalanced tiers simply because the Pokemon contained within are there expressly because they are imbalanced.

Your comments may be based on a belief that the current tier system is wrong, but as it stands, they've just been making you seem like you don't know what the hell you're talking about.

 

[umbarsc]

The best example of why your argument is bullshit is Tentacruel. Its usage skyrocketed when people realized that it was one of the best counters to SR/Spikes/Toxic Spikes and was also blazing fast to lay its own Toxic Spikes. When this happened, it became OU. Since it was OU, it no longer had a place in a metagame centered on giving Pokemon that are Under Used a place to shine.

I agree, which is why I don't want Pokemon like Gligar in UU. They are so similar to OU Pokemon that it "no longer had a place in a metagame centered on giving Pokemon that are Under Used a place to shine".

When people are tired of seeing the same OU bullshit, they switch to UU, which is just as centralized, but in a different manner, with a different set of usable Pokemon. If somehow, Magikarp got used on every team, it would stop being usable in UU despite the fact that it lacks power, because UU exists to separate the more often used Pokemon from the pack. The power rift is a simple unintended side effect. It's simple that the more powerful Pokemon would be used more often, and as such, the Under Used Pokemon have less power.

Is that exactly what I've been saying, or is it just me? Isn't that EXACTLY why I want non-unique NFE out of UU?

I think what people have begun to think is that I want Tentacruel and other non-overpowering OU in UU.

It all comes down to the fact that Under Used was originally never meant to be a competitive tier.

"My response was 'Because UU was created with some non-competitive reasoning in mind.' "

When people started deciding to play it, then the BL tier had to be created in order to create a more varied and balanced metagame. The end result is that of course UU is centralized like OU, just around different Pokemon.

Er, why are you giving me this lecture on the tier system? I do know why we have BL, and that's hardly relevant to this discussion at all!

It's easy to gauge power in a fighting game- there are certain ironclad statistics that gauge exactly how powerful a character is, and that generates tiering. And of course, that tiering can change when someone comes up with a new way to play a character that makes them more useful, and thus makes them rise in usage. However, since it is very difficult to fully gauge power in Pokemon, it gets left to the players to decide what's more powerful. Naturally, the more powerful Pokemon would see more usage in OU, and those without power but with useful abilities (Tentacruel) also rise in tiering due to those abilities.

Technically, usage is an indirect measure of power for the simple reason that there is no way to directly measure a Pokemon's power like there is in fighting games. Things like item usage, metagame trend shifts, and new movesets cause the tiering to shift constantly. The best way to measure a constantly changing metagame is to watch who's using what. It's simply impractical to try and judge power in any other way.

So essentially, what you're saying here is that we have no better way to measure power and have resorted to usage. Can you confirm this, or is it a logical leap? If this can be confirmed, then okay, my argument goes out the window, but it's not exactly a logical conclusion. We're a bunch of smart nerds who know a lot about Pokemon, I think it's possible to guage power without needing usage statistics.

What you do when using usage as a direct measurement of power is that you're not deciding what is powerful, you're letting the average ShoddyBattler decide. That doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me in a completely competitive tier. Since the higher-ups here are pretty smart people I'd say, I think they could come up with something a little more accurate than "hey look at that, Spiritomb rose three places this month! it must be pretty good" if they wanted a tier based purely on power.

Things like Ubers and BL are a different story. If I had to describe Ubers and BL, I'd say that they are the members of OU and UU that are proven to be far more powerful than their counterparts through either usage or applied skills, and therefore decrease the viable options in a metagame. They are simply ban lists that allow for more varied metagames- nothing more, nothing less. The fact that they have (or can) developed into viable metagames is an unintended side effect- They're intended to be imbalanced tiers simply because the Pokemon contained within are there expressly because they are imbalanced.

Which is entirely irrelevant to what we've been talking about. Who needs the tier lecture? Or did three relevant paragraphs just not seem long enough for your post and you decided to add random bullshit?

Your comments may be based on a belief that the current tier system is wrong, but as it stands, they've just been making you seem like you don't know what the hell you're talking about.

No, my comments are not based on a belief that the tier system is wrong. I would go as far as saying that you have no idea what I'm talking about.

 

[Metal Gods]

I think Gligar has a chance to be UU, it was last generation the key things I see on Gligar its movepool gets hurt from the lack of no elemental fangs, although he is arguable.

 

[gengod]

I think Gligar has a chance to be UU, it was last generation the key things I see on Gligar its movepool gets hurt from the lack of no elemental fangs, although he is arguable.

Just because a pokemon was UU last gen does not mean it should or automatically will be UU in the following gen, the same goes for every tier.

 

[ultimifier]

question: "are people going to start debating actual cases of Bl/UU or is unbarsc going to keep arguing with everyone that peaks their opinion?"

i would like to start by saying i have only played UU a bit, 20 matches or so, and i did not see a single hitmontop. i am up for clefable going up to BL as it really centralizes UU. clefable makes every team carry a fighter, sometimes two, and a team without a fighter (like my first one) loses to a celefable every time

 

[jrrrrrrr]

About statistics, what do you wait to see? I think that the top 10 could be the next:

1. Hitmontop
2. Steelix
3. Clefable
4. Toxicroak
5. Kabutops
6. Claydol
7. Froslass
8. Leafeon
9. Rotom
10. Meganium

I think Swellow, Ninetales and Poliwrath have good shots at being top 10 as well. The UU tier really isn't *that* imbalanced. The pokemon you listed as high up will be really high in usages, but I don't think that the differences in usage will be too extreme from one place to the next.

"My response was 'Because UU was created with some non-competitive reasoning in mind.' "

And your response is still wrong. UU was not created with some non-competitive reasoning in mind. It was created solely to remove the OU pokemon from competition, and only the OU pokemon. I don't know who told you that UU was created for balance or for power reasons but you really need to stop making this assumption. OU was the tier intended to create balance. Not UU. Not all of the tiers are intended to be balanced, just OU.

Who needs the tier lecture? Or did three relevant paragraphs just not seem long enough for your post and you decided to add random bullshit?

Apparently you need the tier lecture because you are still posting things that are wrong about the basic composition of the tier system. Your three paragraphs werent relevent, and you should really stop attacking people by calling their true arguments bullshit. You are now not only coming across as wrong but immature as well.

I would go as far as saying that you have no idea what I'm talking about.

Obviously we have no idea what you're talking about since it is based off of an incorrect assumption. You are arguing for something that doesn't exist. How could you even expect us to know what you're getting at if the very foundation of your argument is not based on facts?

See what I did there? Yeah, it's basically what you are doing. You are still claiming that you are right. I don't know when some higher power said "umbarsc is wrong, jrrrrrrr is right", could you direct me to that post please. The way I see it, the debate is about why video stores rent movies.

umbarsc: Video stores rent movies so people can watch the movie without having to buy it.

jrrrrrrr: Video stores rent movies so people can watch movies from the video store.

I'll admit that my argument wasn't factually sound, but it was logically sound.

If usage isn't being used as a direct means of measuring power, why is it used?

Basically, that is what I mean when I say opinion was used. My response was "Because UU was created with some non-competitive reasoning in mind." Your response is... what is it exactly?

Are you trolling? How could you even make a post like this and expect anybody to take you seriously?

My response, along with the responses of many other people was that the point of the tiers is usage and usage alone. Power has never had anything to do with it. The tiers are based on usage. Not power. Usage. Not power. It doesnt matter WHY, that's just how it is.

If you have a problem with how the tier structure is formed, that is a different debate. Don't just sit there and say that the tiers are based on power because they arent. You are posting what you think as a fact and its wrong. I am not just claiming that I'm right, I am proving it. You are the one making baseless assumptions and claiming them to be facts, not me, not anybody else.

I'll admit that my argument wasn't factually sound, but it was logically sound.

You post this and you still wonder why people are calling you out for being wrong? Your argument was against facts and you were using logic that was not factually sound. How hard is that to understand? You were posting about the tier structure, which is already concretely defined, with something that was mere conjecture. That is like me saying "well if gravity didnt exist I could jump to the moon." Even though it is logically sound, it is completely irrelevant because my original assumption that Gravity doesnt exist is wrong. Just like yours.

Your original assumption was wrong, so it doesnt matter what you said after it. Take a logic class. If p (your original statement) is false, it doesnt matter what q (your conclusion is), it is still false. You can't come to a true conclusion from a false premise. So even your argument of "it was logically sound at least!" is false. I would suggest googling "truth tables" in your spare time.

We don't need a higher power to say that you're wrong, you were wrong. If I jump off of a ladder I am not going to fall to the ground. Hey, no higher power said I was wrong, so I must be right!!!

If you really want to continue debating with me about this, I would suggest taking it to PM that way you don't derail this thread anymore. The opinions in this thread are about the placement of pokemon, not the tier structure itself. If you are suggesting that the tier structure should be changed, do that. Don't post your false interpretation of the tiers as fact and expect people to just follow along on your irrelevant tangent.



umbarsc, the arguments you are presenting here in this topic are wrong. The only legitimate argument against NFEs in UU at the moment is that "NFEs are placed in the same tier as their FE counterparts and therefore the NFEs of OU pokemon are OU, meaning they are banned from UU by definition". Saying that "nfes should be banned because the purpose of UU is to be different from OU" is extremely vague and incorrect at face value. Since I'm still not convinced either way of the NFE argument, I'm trying to help you out here and you keep attacking me...sheesh.

 

[obi]

OU was the tier intended to create balance. Not UU. Not all of the tiers are intended to be balanced, just OU.

This is false. OU, UU, and NU are all intended to be balanced. Ubers, BL, and "Limbo" (or whatever the new tier between UU and NU becomes) are by definition the only unbalanced tiers.

My response, along with the responses of many other people was that the point of the tiers is usage and usage alone. Power has never had anything to do with it. The tiers are based on usage. Not power. Usage. Not power. It doesnt matter WHY, that's just how it is.

But that's not how it is. First you use power to separate OU from ubers. Then you use usage to separate OU from UU. Then you use power to separate BL from UU. Then you use usage to separate UU from NU. Then you use power to separate NU from "Limbo".

I also fail to see where his blatant errors are. If we accept the premise that the purpose of UU is to be different from OU, then his argument has some validity. Right here, from you, is the first time in a long time that I've seen anyone claim that is completely false. It's definitely not defined in anything official that he is wrong.

 

[jrrrrrrr]

This is false. OU, UU, and NU are all intended to be balanced. Ubers, BL, and "Limbo" (or whatever the new tier between UU and NU becomes) are by definition the only unbalanced tiers.

The first priority is separating them based on usage. BL and "Limbo" are afterthoughts of UU and NU. That's not what he was arguing, anyways. He said that the intent was to be different, not balanced.

But that's not how it is. First you use power to separate OU from ubers. Then you use usage to separate OU from UU. Then you use power to separate BL from UU. Then you use usage to separate UU from NU. Then you use power to separate NU from "Limbo".

I also fail to see where his blatant errors are. If we accept the premise that the purpose of UU is to be different from OU, then his argument has some validity. Right here, from you, is the first time in a long time that I've seen anyone claim that is completely false. It's definitely not defined in anything official that he is wrong.

If we accept that the purpose of UU is solely to be different from OU (which is what he was saying is the only purpose), sure. But I'm not, since the only purpose of UU regarding to differences between it and OU is "pokemon species that are overused (and bl and uber) are banned".

www.smogon.com/philosophy :

However, there is still a search for betterment—the "UU metagame" is an attempt to give a more interesting look at Pokémon that may not compete well with the stronger Pokémon of the game;

Pokémon has tiers. In the competitive arena, victory is paramount—and against high-tier Pokémon, lesser Pokémon are simply shut out by the virtue of poor moves, poor stats, or both—or, sometimes, simply the fact that another Pokémon is a superior choice. Consider Whiscash as opposed to Swampert—you can compare them in virtually any way and see that Swampert performs better or similarly in all cases. The UU (and NU) metagames exist to mitigate this problem by creating an arena where lesser Pokémon can be used while still following the competitive ideal, but this is not perfect, and many Pokémon simply find themselves never used.

Nowhere does it mention that UU is made to "feel different" from OU. Even if it is true, what he said does not hold true. Monferno is a "lesser pokemon" that "does not compete well in OU" and by Smogon's philosophy it should be allowed in. What umbarsc said might be the reason why NFEs are classified in the same tier as their FE counterparts, but it is not the point of UU by any stretch.

 

[umbarsc]

We already had this discussion jrrrrrrr. Replace "purpose of UU" with "reason UU was created" and you'll see that it's logical to ban non-unique NFEs, not that it has to be done by some "definition" of the tier.

Technically, the purpose of UU is to use Pokemon not seen frequently in the OU. HOWEVER, when you consider that UU was created to create an environment that is different from OU, it seems like it would be backward thinking to allow Pokemon that are very similar and are associated with standard Pokemon.

I may have misrepresented myself. I'm not saying anything "has" to be done if it makes UU more similar to OU, I'm just saying it would be logical.