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The Smogon "Suspect Test" Ladder is in full effect!
- Thread starter Jumpman16
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I don't think Garchomp will make much difference honestly. It isn't hard to beat, and if you have one naturally faster pokemon with a STAB that hits it for neutral, and a strong choice scarfer, like Heracross, you are usually fine. I mean, sure, sometimes Sand Veil will make you miss, but that is part of the game, and how is that any different than some random freeze, Hypnosis not working, or when Overheat misses against a LO Gengar?
Now the Stealth Rockless metagame is what I am waiting for. I think that is THE most gamebreaking advent from D/P. Without Stealth Rock, our SpecsMence and DD Gyarados can reign supreme once again. I also think it is a bit more practical banning an entire move altogether, rather then testing to see if Garchomp is the problem, or maybe it is the Yache Berry, or maybe Sand Veil.
Now the Stealth Rockless metagame is what I am waiting for. I think that is THE most gamebreaking advent from D/P. Without Stealth Rock, our SpecsMence and DD Gyarados can reign supreme once again. I also think it is a bit more practical banning an entire move altogether, rather then testing to see if Garchomp is the problem, or maybe it is the Yache Berry, or maybe Sand Veil.
I missed this one. Sarcastic "thanks guys!"? Because we made an alternate metagame ladder? If you like Garchomp (and have made up your mind about the secondary ladder) then play on the real one. I'd rather not have this thread turn into a sarcastic shitfest because someone doesnt understand the concept of "test".
I think what he meant was that his team revolves around chomp and if he wants to vote on chomp he is gonna have to do well on ladder. However, that does not excuse the sarcastic comment he made =/
Alright, time for my updates (yeah im (BAN ME PLEASE) X])
- Suicide leads actually weren't that common imo. In fact, besides me, I saw not 1 suicide lead. Mine still worked perfectly although I tweaked the moveset a bit.
- Lucario usage is off the charts. Now I have only battled about 20 battles with my team on the ladder, but I can almost guarantee that almost every battle I was in, the opponent had a Lucario. In fact, I also abused Lucario. Without Garchomp, Lucario not only lost one of his counters but lost his competition as bet SD Sweeper.
- Stall teams are actually losing now to full offensive teams. Even though I am saying this because of my battles, all the stall teams I faced couldn't handle the pressure of heatran / lucario / starmie. Stall is common though, but without Chomp as the common "sweeper" in the stall team, you really cant take out any big hitting threats.
-Deoxys-S and Clefable are ripping through Stall Teams as well, and I even saw this once. I could definitely see more Deoxys-S and Clefable usage than before :/
I will update tommorow where I plan on battling most of the day.
Alright, time for my updates (yeah im (BAN ME PLEASE) X])
- Suicide leads actually weren't that common imo. In fact, besides me, I saw not 1 suicide lead. Mine still worked perfectly although I tweaked the moveset a bit.
- Lucario usage is off the charts. Now I have only battled about 20 battles with my team on the ladder, but I can almost guarantee that almost every battle I was in, the opponent had a Lucario. In fact, I also abused Lucario. Without Garchomp, Lucario not only lost one of his counters but lost his competition as bet SD Sweeper.
- Stall teams are actually losing now to full offensive teams. Even though I am saying this because of my battles, all the stall teams I faced couldn't handle the pressure of heatran / lucario / starmie. Stall is common though, but without Chomp as the common "sweeper" in the stall team, you really cant take out any big hitting threats.
-Deoxys-S and Clefable are ripping through Stall Teams as well, and I even saw this once. I could definitely see more Deoxys-S and Clefable usage than before :/
I will update tommorow where I plan on battling most of the day.
Beware Calm Mind Jirachi (esp. with Substitute).
I'll be looking forward to not having to carry HP Ice on 5 different things. This is awesome. (I'll still use Starmie just cuz)
This post isn't intended to be rude or questions the judgment of Chaos, Jumpman16, or any other Smogon administrator or badge holder supporting the idea of a "suspect ladder." That said, I felt I needed to say a few things about this method.
How will you go about determining whether this new metagame is less centralized? A metagame is going to change when a major player is taken out. If Gyarados or Lucario were removed from a metagame it seems only logical that teams would change, would this imply centralization? How exactly does this help in determining whether or not Garchomp is uber?
To me, this seems this is going to be a test of whether or not people prefer a metagame without Garchomp, not that Garchomp is necessarily uber. I'm not saying this is necessarily a bad way to determine something being uber but I don't see how this helps to determine over-centralization. I believe the only way to truly determine something is uber is by presenting arguments in favor for or against it (or if a statistical argument for centralization can be clearly made, which in that case, then we can just look at ladder statistics) We've played with Garchomp for quite some time and I think everyone is well equipped to make their arguments based on their experiences and I don't see how removing a Pokemon can allow anyone to conclude that Garchomp is uber.
Again, this isn't meant to question any smogon staff judgement but I don't see solid reasoning behind this (and yes, I've read all the Policy Review threads), I'm sure you have those reasons but I think they need to be layed out in more detail. Such as, how does this method help in determining whether Garchomp centralized the metagame? What metric is being used to determine this? If no solid metric is being used to determine this than there is no point in the ladder existing and a bold voting thread mine as well be used.
Also, I support Garchomp being banned if anyone questions my motives in saying this.
How will you go about determining whether this new metagame is less centralized? A metagame is going to change when a major player is taken out. If Gyarados or Lucario were removed from a metagame it seems only logical that teams would change, would this imply centralization? How exactly does this help in determining whether or not Garchomp is uber?
To me, this seems this is going to be a test of whether or not people prefer a metagame without Garchomp, not that Garchomp is necessarily uber. I'm not saying this is necessarily a bad way to determine something being uber but I don't see how this helps to determine over-centralization. I believe the only way to truly determine something is uber is by presenting arguments in favor for or against it (or if a statistical argument for centralization can be clearly made, which in that case, then we can just look at ladder statistics) We've played with Garchomp for quite some time and I think everyone is well equipped to make their arguments based on their experiences and I don't see how removing a Pokemon can allow anyone to conclude that Garchomp is uber.
Again, this isn't meant to question any smogon staff judgement but I don't see solid reasoning behind this (and yes, I've read all the Policy Review threads), I'm sure you have those reasons but I think they need to be layed out in more detail. Such as, how does this method help in determining whether Garchomp centralized the metagame? What metric is being used to determine this? If no solid metric is being used to determine this than there is no point in the ladder existing and a bold voting thread mine as well be used.
Also, I support Garchomp being banned if anyone questions my motives in saying this.
Originally Posted by Fat RaikouLover
Wow, I hate this new metagame. It really sucks... Stall Stall Stall... Now I have to revamp and make a completely new team. Thanks guys!
Sorry, didn't mean to sound like a dick. I wasn't too happy when I posted that. I had faced a string of about ten battles where every team was stall and every team ironically looked the same. My observation from battling was that people no longer feel the need to use any sort of speed to revenge kill yache chomp, which equates to slower, bulkier, stallish teams.
Well, we are also able to see what sets pokemon are using, so if certain strategies were made unviable by Garchomp they can tell.
(ie, ice beam > thunderbolt on starmie, HP ice on celebi, etc etc)
Heh your question came up several times during the talks leading up to this. I think these 2 points are really the main reasons, anyone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.
1. No change can be made on a metagame before it is tested.
2. We are trying to create a suspect-free metagame. By banning Garchomp we will be more capable of determining whether or not other suspects are present in OU.
So really what we're trying to do is see if whether or not the loss of Garchomp produces more suspects. I've spoken to a few people who believe that if banning Garchomp from OU results in several more Pokemon "becoming uber," that we should leave Garchomp unbanned. I've always believed that we shouldn't leave broken Pokemon in OU in order to keep a check on other broken Pokemon, but it's obviously not a universally held idea. So we'll have to see what happens in that regard.
1. No change can be made on a metagame before it is tested.
2. We are trying to create a suspect-free metagame. By banning Garchomp we will be more capable of determining whether or not other suspects are present in OU.
So really what we're trying to do is see if whether or not the loss of Garchomp produces more suspects. I've spoken to a few people who believe that if banning Garchomp from OU results in several more Pokemon "becoming uber," that we should leave Garchomp unbanned. I've always believed that we shouldn't leave broken Pokemon in OU in order to keep a check on other broken Pokemon, but it's obviously not a universally held idea. So we'll have to see what happens in that regard.
Decent points, but I'll address your first two reasons.
1. That is true, but hasn't Garchomp been tested? He's been tested for months and months. You aren't testing Garchomp with this test, you are testing a metagame without Garchomp. These seem very similar, but they are, in fact, very different. A metagame will change when any major player is removed from it whether it be Garchomp, Salamence, or Gengar. You'll see a change in movesets and styles of play simply because those are no longer threats to be addressed, so what does removing them test? Now, if I were to introduce Salamence to the metagame this is different. Things would change as well, but, over time one would observe how the metagame adjusts and settles with it (much in the way was done with Wobbuffet) and then arguments be made for and against it. This "testing period" has already happened for Garchomp, hence, the Chomp-less ladder seems pointless to me.
2. This has never made sense to me. Either something is a threat in the current metagame or it isn't. If Garchomp is banned based on the current metagame (i.e. with Chomp in it) and something becomes obviously uber after it is removed in the metagame, than ban it as well, this can be done without an additional ladder (unless this is being done for convenience).
Then why am i running scarfjolt? :/
But yeah, the suspectless ladder has a majority of stall teams, and i don't see how Garchomp's removal has anything to do with that.
Ding dong the chomp is dead! Obviously, you can tell I'm just ecstatic to have Garchomp gone. Although with chomp gone, I've found fewer scarfed pokemon. Many of the Heatrans I've faced aren't scarved anymore, while SkarmBliss and Salamence have risen in usage. At least they're easier to beat. Now to get rid of some of my Ice moves...
We aren't looking at whether it changes (of course it will), but how it changes.
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