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DP Tier Discussion - BL and UU (mark 2)
- Thread starter Phuquoph
- Start date
You are not the only one bitching. I like to run a UU stall team and it's become nearly impossible to stop a well played Aero. I'm willing to wait for it to settle before calling it "broken" but it seems like it may be a candidate for this description.
Change doesn't necessarily = broken, but too much change is a sign of centraliztion, which shows that a Pokemon is too powerful for that tier. It does have a few counters, but if you don't have one of those or an abundance of scarfers you're ruined. It's highly questionable at this point.
Most, if not all of Aerodactyl's counters are defensive pokemon and if you can't stop Aerodactyl with a stall/defensive team that should more than likely contain more than one pokemon that would stop Aerodactyl as well as Stealth Rock to wear it down then something is obviously wrong with either the team or player, not necessarily Aerodactyl being broken.
Centralization does not directly mean something is too powerful, take Steelix or Rotom for example.
Aerodactyl has quite a few counters in UU, so its not like you are limited to one pokemon or one a few types of pokemon like in the case of Swellow. Also the if you don't have one of the pokemon's counters or something faster than it, then your going to get swept argument holds true for just about any sweeper in every tier, not just UU.
EDIT:
3-4 switch-ins is quite alot and should be more than enough to counter something. Pokemon that try to counter Ninetales, Kabutops, Glaceon Omastar, Jynx....etc don't normally have the luxury of switching in that many times.
I've been using Dactyl on the UU ladder since it was allowed and seriously, the only thing that can always keep switching on it is Gastrodon. Everything else is wasted after 3-4 switch-ins.
The LO set with Roost is what I'm using for the most part (EQ, Stone Edge, Crunch, Roost) and while a lot of things can switch in once or twice, it only delays an inevitable sweep (unless of course you have a faster Scarfer).
Also, remember old ADV days when ppl used SD Celebi + Taunt Dactyl? I've been doing the same thing with Leafeon instead and seriously, it's hard to stop. (No, I don't want Dactyl to be banned because of a random BP strategy, I'm just saying it because... just because).
Anyway, just do whatever you want >_> I'll keep whoring Dactyl untill its banned again because I'm sure it will sooner or later.
The LO set with Roost is what I'm using for the most part (EQ, Stone Edge, Crunch, Roost) and while a lot of things can switch in once or twice, it only delays an inevitable sweep (unless of course you have a faster Scarfer).
Also, remember old ADV days when ppl used SD Celebi + Taunt Dactyl? I've been doing the same thing with Leafeon instead and seriously, it's hard to stop. (No, I don't want Dactyl to be banned because of a random BP strategy, I'm just saying it because... just because).
Anyway, just do whatever you want >_> I'll keep whoring Dactyl untill its banned again because I'm sure it will sooner or later.
It could be I'm just a terrible player (I prefer to think not) and I obviously have SR to wear it down so it's not as though it sweeps an entire team (a lot of sets run Roost on Aero now anyway) but the idea of a counter is something that can switch in with little risk and either force it out or kill it, there is only a few defensive Pokemon that can switch in safe and threaten it. I've had to resort to Will-O-Wisp, and it really only works if the player is an idiot, hence why I said "intelligent player".
Edit: can you please elaborate on these counters rather than just claiming they exist and saying they exist and thus I'm wrong and I have poor team. It would be nice if you gave specifics. Without specifics I could argue medicham should be uu
I've had problems with Aerodactyl, but no more so than the likes of Swellow and rain dance teams.
Anyway, I agree that we need to stop fussing about the current UU and focus on correctly redefining the tier. I noticed that a few other people have been talking about playing a few 'BL' matches; which server(s) are people actually playing these in?
Anyway, I agree that we need to stop fussing about the current UU and focus on correctly redefining the tier. I noticed that a few other people have been talking about playing a few 'BL' matches; which server(s) are people actually playing these in?
Smogon's server just this week has had a few players. I usually get ~2 matches per day (note: be patient with the BL tab, or even somehow bring the subject up in the main chat; you may get a challenge that way), although after about 10 or so, I fear that there are no other unique players, and so I started having rematches. I'm making an additional alternate team because of it. Quite a few were new players too, and I offered a bit of guidance, but a couple also used OU (fortunately, my team had an answer to Mamo, Yanmega, Togekiss, and Jolteon). =/
I myself probably won't be on until I finish this new team, or I give up on making one and keep going with my current one.
That doesn't do anything to the discussion, other than suggesting that we make Rain Dance teams to counter Aerodactyl.
You are aware of the discussion regarding the BL's, correct? That the testing will take place on a separate ladder. Talking about the concerns of "this" UU is perfectly acceptable. I doubt that without a ladder that any progress will be made unless there was some what to increase the overall popularity of the idea in order to get more people involved(before the ladder is erected).
Regarding the issue of Aerodactyl and the others, I will refrain from giving my opinion untill I play more matches.
Could someone explain how Aerodactyl is overpowered/overcentralizing/etc.? I'm not refuting the idea, but I have had little trouble with countering it.
Aerodactyl's greatest asset is its speed, but when you're up against physical walls who really don't care about speed like Steelix, it really doesn't matter. While its base 105 attack is nothing to scoff at, it isn't spectacular, especially considering the fact Aero has no way to boost its attack outside from a hold item. Life Orb Earthquake on max Hp/no Def Impish Steelix is a 3HKO, with a possibility of a 4HKO even if Aerodactyl is Adamant. The same goes for Double Edge on a max HP/144 Def Bold Claydol. In the meantime, Steelix KOs with Gyro Ball or Stone Edge, and Claydol sets up Reflect and 2HKOs with Ice Beam (OHKO if Aero has taken any Stealth Rock damage.)
I can see why Aerodactyl could be a problem to offensive teams, but unlike Deoxys-E in OU, it can be revenged by Scarfed sweepers. Anything with 264 Speed outspeeds it with a Scarf, including (neutral natured) Nidoking, Hitmonlee, Primeape, Rotom, Scyther, and Sharpedo.
Aerodactyl's greatest asset is its speed, but when you're up against physical walls who really don't care about speed like Steelix, it really doesn't matter. While its base 105 attack is nothing to scoff at, it isn't spectacular, especially considering the fact Aero has no way to boost its attack outside from a hold item. Life Orb Earthquake on max Hp/no Def Impish Steelix is a 3HKO, with a possibility of a 4HKO even if Aerodactyl is Adamant. The same goes for Double Edge on a max HP/144 Def Bold Claydol. In the meantime, Steelix KOs with Gyro Ball or Stone Edge, and Claydol sets up Reflect and 2HKOs with Ice Beam (OHKO if Aero has taken any Stealth Rock damage.)
I can see why Aerodactyl could be a problem to offensive teams, but unlike Deoxys-E in OU, it can be revenged by Scarfed sweepers. Anything with 264 Speed outspeeds it with a Scarf, including (neutral natured) Nidoking, Hitmonlee, Primeape, Rotom, Scyther, and Sharpedo.
If you had read the whole thread you would have known that a list of decent Aerodactyl switch-ins or counters was already posted earlier in the thread, but for your and everyone elses reference I will quote the switch-ins/counters again. I bolded the ones that have some kind of recovery outside of Rest.
I'm fine with having Aerodactyl around, Venusaur and Miltank, on the other hand I am concerned about having around because they are excessively bulky. Venusaur runs in a similar fashion to Jumpluff, it means running Toxic/Flame Orb Clefable in order to threaten a switch with Ice Beam, carrying a Pokemon with Taunt, or Pokemon that do super effective damage such as Choice Banded Rapidash packing Flare Blitz.
On the other hand, Milktank is a better version of the already powerful Granbull. Cursed versions in addition to Milk Drink can take Close Combat, heal themselves and sweep with Body Slam, at least with Granbull, Bulk Up creates little change in the stat department because most people EV it for attack.
On the other hand, Milktank is a better version of the already powerful Granbull. Cursed versions in addition to Milk Drink can take Close Combat, heal themselves and sweep with Body Slam, at least with Granbull, Bulk Up creates little change in the stat department because most people EV it for attack.
So we have 5 reliable counters that you can come up with, fair enough, but do you really even have five? Let's take a look here.
All calcs either assume Jolly or Adamant max attack CB Aero (the set that most concerns me). Obviously Fire Fang and Ice Fang are interchangeable in calcs.
Gastrodon: true counter.
Meganium (Bold, 216 HP / 148 Def)
Jolly Stone Edge: 46% - 55% (possible 2HKO,2HKO almost guaranteed w/ SR (99% chance))
Adamant Stone Edge: 51% - 60% (possible 2HKO, 2HKO guaranteed w/ SR)
Jolly Ice Fang: 41% - 48% (possible 2HKO w/ SR down)
Adamant Ice Fang: 44% - 52% (possible 2HKO w/ SR down)
Something that is 2HKOd and is slower is not a counter. Looks like a game of probability here.
Venusaur (Bold, 252 HP / 252 Def):
Jolly Stone Edge: 46% - 55% (possible 2HKO, 2HKO guaranteed w/ SR)
Adamant Stone Edge: 51% - 60% (possible 2HKO, 2HKO guaranteed w/ SR)
Jolly Ice Fang: 40% - 48% (possible 2HKO w/ SR)
Adamant Ice Fang: 45% - 53% (possible 2HKO, Almost guaranteed w/ SR (87%))
2HKO is not a counter.
Leafeon (Jolly, 132 HP / 0 Def):
Jolly Stone Edge: 55% - 65% (2HKO)
Adamant Stone Edge: 61% - 72% (2HKO)
Jolly Ice Fang: 48% - 57% (possible 2HKO, guaranteed w/ SR)
Adamant Ice Fang: 52% - 62% (likely 2HKO (98%), guaranteed w/ SR)
Another solid grass counter. Let's try the Wish spread ...
Leafeon (Impish, 252 HP / 20 Def):
Jolly Stone Edge: 45% - 53% (possible 2HKO, 2HKO likely w/ SR (89%))
Adamant Stone Edge: 49% - 58% (possible 2HKO, 2HKO guaranteed w/ SR)
Jolly Ice Fang: 39% - 46% (3HKO)
Adamant Ice Fang: 43% - 50% (possible 2HKO w/ SR)
Well, this one has a slight chance to live if you predict Ice Fang, but that really isn't how a counter works ...
Weezing (Impish, 252 HP/ 252 Def):
Jolly Stone Edge: 40% - 47% (possible 2HKO w/ SR, very unlikely (0.72%))
Adamant Stone Edge: 44% - 52% (likely 2HKO w/ SR (70%))
It appears we have here the most reliable counter, and it just so happens to be the newly introduced Weezing. Guess everyone will have to use Weezing now.
So, let's reduce your reliable counter list to : Gastrodon and Weezing.
Edit: About the counter game I just played with you, does this even matter? Groudon has counters in OU (few they may be), does he deserve to come down from ubers?
You might also want to consider the fact that Stone Edge may gain a critical hit at the worst possible moment, making even Weezing unlikely.
However, those five are only the ones that have reliable healing. That shouldn't be a terrible excluding factor, especially when you have a greater pool of Pokemon with better defensive stats and typing to handle Aero is bit easier. For example, I can't fathom what Aero can do to Claydol beside Ice Fang, which has rather poor base power in the first place. Switch it in on any move other than it and set up your rocks. Not only did you accomplish something to hurt its ability to further switch in, but you also crippled the rest of your opponent's team. Or maybe they switched in their own Rapid Spinner, expecting the rocks. You now (effectively) have a free turn to switch in your heavy sweeper and set up or something. That's probably an average scenario for what can happen, and probably exclusive to Claydol and Steelix, but that's what could hypothetically happen.
If that wasn't enough, Choice sets are easy to counter if you can predict correctly. Again, like a scenario as I mentioned above.
However, those five are only the ones that have reliable healing. That shouldn't be a terrible excluding factor, especially when you have a greater pool of Pokemon with better defensive stats and typing to handle Aero is bit easier. For example, I can't fathom what Aero can do to Claydol beside Ice Fang, which has rather poor base power in the first place. Switch it in on any move other than it and set up your rocks. Not only did you accomplish something to hurt its ability to further switch in, but you also crippled the rest of your opponent's team. Or maybe they switched in their own Rapid Spinner, expecting the rocks. You now (effectively) have a free turn to switch in your heavy sweeper and set up or something. That's probably an average scenario for what can happen, and probably exclusive to Claydol and Steelix, but that's what could hypothetically happen.
If that wasn't enough, Choice sets are easy to counter if you can predict correctly. Again, like a scenario as I mentioned above.
Hmm, Caelum could you tell me the reason why you disregarded every other pokemon on the list Maniac presented? The calculations that you presented (if true) show that those with a recovery move may not fair as well as first presumed. To say that you can reduce his list of counters to 2 without even testing the other ones on his list isn't exactly fair I would think.
From what I've observed, Aerodactly seems to give teams with paper defenses alot of trouble. I do have to question if such teams are a good idea in the first place because even without Aero being present they still can take extreme damage from CBanders and salac sweepers.
From what I've observed, Aerodactly seems to give teams with paper defenses alot of trouble. I do have to question if such teams are a good idea in the first place because even without Aero being present they still can take extreme damage from CBanders and salac sweepers.
