First of all, I'm going to agree with Maniac right off the bat about Articuno. If Delibird is the only UU spinner (who uses this?), then Articuno can only switch in 1-2 times before dying. Aerodactyl is easily walled by Quaqsire and Gastrodon (Aero used to be OU hahahaha). I don't know why Venasuar isn't UU yet either. However, Tauros seems to be a little overpowered with that Speed and Attack for UU. Torterra dosen't seem to do much. Most sweepers like Altaria and Ninetails can beat it, so I don't see a reason that it's still BL either.
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DP Tier Discussion - BL and UU (mark 2)
- Thread starter Phuquoph
- Start date
Claydol, Gastrodon, Blastoise, Hitmontop, Quagsire, Whiscash, Meganium, Venusaur, Steelix, Leafeon, Grunbull, Poliwrath, Sandslash, Solrock, Sudowoodo are all relatively good switchins or counters.
Err...Blastoise, Hitmontop and Sandslash are all viable spinners in UU.
Tauros i'm worried about since it's pretty bulky due to it's base 95 defense and Intimidate and can prove to be pretty hard to take down while simultaneously being a decent attacker.
Torterra has similar issues. It's slower than Tauros but it has pretty good defensive and offensive capabilites and i don't think anything in UU can really take a Torterra packing Earthquake, Stone Edge and Seed Bomb/Wood Hammer on either a CB or Life Orbed Rock Polish set.
Besides the fact Articuno is a freakin tank in UU?
90/100/125 bases are nothing to be snuffed at especially in combination with Roost and 85 speed. 50% damage doesn't mean anything if it takes less than 50% from many super effective moves and simply Roosts it off. Articuno can even support with phazing, Tailwind or Reflect or just U-Turn to be an asshole.
Its weaknesses are no more exploitable than Moltres's. Just completely against Articuno, I'd be more prepared to see Regigigas make the jump than Articuno.
That decent speed equates to excellent speed in UU. It technically has Fire/Ice resistances if you run Thick Fat and it can learn Stealth Rock/T-Wave/Heal Bell. Its also a Curse user with reliable healing and Scrappy.
Miltank versatility within UU is being heavily underrated which you need to carefully consider. Theres possibilities for Miltank but you need more than the 'mediocre stats' argument which only applies to Clefable.
What?
I think that Miltank would be countered by all the hitmons, Toxicroak or Primeape. However, it could give problems to teams which doesn't carry a good fighting pokémon, and good supportive capabilities, with Thunder Wave, Stealth Rock or Heal Bell. Anyway, I would like to test it.
Tauros is really strong, and without Skarmory and Bronzong, it will have fun with Return, Stone Edge, Earthquake, Life Orb and intimidate. I think that it's quite overpowered.
Aerodactyl is in a similar place than Tauros, but with worse type, in my opinion. Furthermore, its better STAB, Stone Edge, is resisted by a lot of stuff in UU. I would consider it, because it could be killed easier than Tauros.
Articuno is quite bulky, it has access to good moves, like Roost, Tailwind, Reflect, and I think that it also learns Heal Bell, but I'm not sure. It has a really bad type, and with 4x weakness to Stealth Rock, but it's defenses help it, and it can stand hits like a champ. I think it's a bit overpowered to UU, but you could test it if you want.
Venusaur is like Vileplume, but with better stats, and like Meganium, but with two stats swapped, a second type, Poison, and Sleep Powder. In my opinion, it's way better than Vileplume and Meganium, and they are really nasty by themselves. I would say that it's rather overpowered too, but testing is always welcome.
Tauros is really strong, and without Skarmory and Bronzong, it will have fun with Return, Stone Edge, Earthquake, Life Orb and intimidate. I think that it's quite overpowered.
Aerodactyl is in a similar place than Tauros, but with worse type, in my opinion. Furthermore, its better STAB, Stone Edge, is resisted by a lot of stuff in UU. I would consider it, because it could be killed easier than Tauros.
Articuno is quite bulky, it has access to good moves, like Roost, Tailwind, Reflect, and I think that it also learns Heal Bell, but I'm not sure. It has a really bad type, and with 4x weakness to Stealth Rock, but it's defenses help it, and it can stand hits like a champ. I think it's a bit overpowered to UU, but you could test it if you want.
Venusaur is like Vileplume, but with better stats, and like Meganium, but with two stats swapped, a second type, Poison, and Sleep Powder. In my opinion, it's way better than Vileplume and Meganium, and they are really nasty by themselves. I would say that it's rather overpowered too, but testing is always welcome.
You act like 50% is not alot of damage for a pokemon to just be taking on a switchin, it still then has to deal with whatever attacks the pokemon was going to use. Most of the common special attackers all have ways of getting around Articuno just like how they have ways of getting around the main and in my opnion better Special tanks like Grumpig and Hypno.
Most of them are also going to be faster than Articuno meaning that Articuno will take 50% on a switch, damage from whatever attack was used as well as damage from another attack and this is assuming that Articuno was at 100% to begin with.
Yes I also know that i assume Stealth Rocks will be up on the field, but Stealth Rock is prevalent on just about every UU team, so most of the time this is what Articuno is going to have to deal with.
It as excellent speed, but only if it focuses on that stat which it will never do as it it will always be outclassed as a straight up attacker. Ice and Fire attacks are scarcer in UU so it's most likely that Miltank will be using Scrappy most of the time so it won't have to sacrafice another attacking slot to be able to hit Ghost pokemon like Rotom and Frosslass.
Sure it has some pretty decent support options but it's not like of any of them are really unique to Miltank or overpowering in the slightest. The Curse set will be walled by Steel and Rock types if it chooses to give up Earthquake for Heal Bell to avoid Status and if it chooses to keep Earthquake then it can be easily statused and all the while it's Special Defence isn't exatly the greatest so it can have trouble setting up and can even be taken out from that side after setting up.
I do not underrate what Miltank is capable of, I more so think people overestimate Miltank's capabilities. It is clearly capable of functioning in UU without being broken or anything close to it.
And as for Leafeon, A defensively EV'd Leafeon can be a decent switch into Aerodactly as it cannot be OHKOd by Fire Blast and it can wall pretty much any other move.
Considering a Adamant/252 LO Stone Edge does 40% to Impish/252/252 Leafeon and Neutral 0 Satk LO Fire Blast does another 60-68%...
No...Leafeon really can't switch into the previously mentioned Aerodactyl. It'll just be a lamb to the slaughter...
STAB Aerial Ace hasn't even been considered either...
Relicanth has serious problems with its type... it has Ground, Fighting, Grass and Electric weakness. Grass and Electric are most of the time special, but it won't take special hits anyway. However, Ground and Fighting are very common in the physical spectrum, and you won't be able to counter a lot of stuff in UU, like Hitmons, Poliwrath or Leafeon.
On the other hand, Leafeon's weakness are Ice, Fire, Bug, Flying and Poison. Ice is almost always special, and in UU, fire is special, with the exception of Rapidash. Poison isn't used, and only has to worry about Flying and Bug, used by Scyther and Swellow, which had reduced its usage because of Steelix.
Both Muk and special Toxicroak use Poison attacks regularly as the sheer damage output is worth it. You've completely ignored Venomoth one of the most potent Bug special attackers in UU and Leafy's other half Glaceon. Altaria regularly packs Fire Blast or Ice Beam and Mantine makes great use of Ice Beam or HP Flying.
Either way I think he was speaking about defensive Relicanth in terms of being an Aerodactyl counter/switchin and was just pointing it out since it was not in my list. Omastar would also fall uinto the same category.
I'm sure either way it shows that Aerodactly has suffcient counters or at least good switchins in UU for it to not really be broken in that tier.
I'm not sure if this was discussed, but what about Jumpluff's status? It was BL in advance, and now it's UU and I don't recall any kind of discussion on it. It outspeeds almost all of UU, and if Sleep Powder doesn't miss it can outstall pretty much anything with Leech Seed. It also has Aerial Ace/HP Flying for other grassers, I think it requires another look..
I thought that we were talking about Leafeon vs Relicanth, so I apologize if we were talking about Aerodactyl's counters.
Anyway, they won't try to wall special sweepers like Venomoth, although Muk and Toxicroak are problems to Leafeon. But I meant to say that Leafeon's weakness are less used that Relicanth's weakness, because Fighting and Ground are the OU of physical attack.
Anyway, they won't try to wall special sweepers like Venomoth, although Muk and Toxicroak are problems to Leafeon. But I meant to say that Leafeon's weakness are less used that Relicanth's weakness, because Fighting and Ground are the OU of physical attack.
Articuno is just a flat out no - you seem to think having a Stealth Rock weak makes it suitable for UU. A simple way around this is to pack a spinner. Anti Spinners aren't very viable in UU due to the fact that all the ghosts are extremely fragile, so this makes rapid spin very viable.
Besides, wsan't Miltakn knocked back earlier? If so, why are we testing it again?
Just a quick rebuttle there.
Besides, wsan't Miltakn knocked back earlier? If so, why are we testing it again?
Just a quick rebuttle there.
Relicanth covers its Ground and Electric weaknesses well though. Rock Polish Relicanth for instance hits 418 Speed while Adamant, meaning it beats even max speed Hasty Electrode. Head Smash/Waterfall/Earthquake covers a lot of threats, although Poliwrath, Leafeon, and Meganium remain solid counters (Vileplume is slower initially and is easily 2HKO'd by Head Smash)
Adamant Relicanth Head Smash to 252 HP Leafeon: 50-59%. A shaky 2HKO if Leafeon has Leftovers, but a solid one with Stealth Rock out. Waterfall is a solid 2HKO on Hitmonchan (but insufficient for Hitmontop, especially with Intimidate) Golem shouldn't go anywhere near Relicanth, nor should Aggron or Sandslash.
EDIT: LOL why would Trode be Jolly I spend too much time with Aerodactyl.
There are very few special attackers that can actually really hurt Articuno in UU. Even if we assume SR is up, Articuno happily comes in on most UU special attackers who do 30-35% with their attacks, outspeeds them and Roosts off the damage. Hell LO Tbolt from Starmie does ~40%.
Now we stop assuming that SR is omnipresent, seeing as how Claydol, Blastoise, Hitmontop, Hitmonlee(Yeah, Spinning Lee, its annoying as hell),Sandslash and co. are also there.
I say Spinning Lee because UU ghosts are extremely frail, and will not be very happy to switch into a CB Stone Edge or something that could be heading their way, allowing Lee to clear the field of Spikes.
Claydol can also Shadow Ball to make Rotom and Froslass reluctant to come in.
Sandslash has Stone Edge to smack them with again, and Blastoise's Surfs will begin to hurt after a while.
Seriously, Spinning isn't all that tough if you use a good anti-ghost Spinner.
As for Physical attackers, while Articuno can't come in on them, Pressure means that with Protect it can stall them out of their precious Stone Edge PP. If they're using any other attack which it can survive with some decent amount to spare, Protect+Roost means 4 PP gone just like that.
Articuno will bring UU to a grinding halt if you put it there.
Now we stop assuming that SR is omnipresent, seeing as how Claydol, Blastoise, Hitmontop, Hitmonlee(Yeah, Spinning Lee, its annoying as hell),Sandslash and co. are also there.
I say Spinning Lee because UU ghosts are extremely frail, and will not be very happy to switch into a CB Stone Edge or something that could be heading their way, allowing Lee to clear the field of Spikes.
Claydol can also Shadow Ball to make Rotom and Froslass reluctant to come in.
Sandslash has Stone Edge to smack them with again, and Blastoise's Surfs will begin to hurt after a while.
Seriously, Spinning isn't all that tough if you use a good anti-ghost Spinner.
As for Physical attackers, while Articuno can't come in on them, Pressure means that with Protect it can stall them out of their precious Stone Edge PP. If they're using any other attack which it can survive with some decent amount to spare, Protect+Roost means 4 PP gone just like that.
Articuno will bring UU to a grinding halt if you put it there.
Don't forget Torkoal as spinner, and Scyther counter, so it could fill two roles in a team. With Lava Plume it scares Froslass, and Banette and Rotom won't like it, although Trick is quite nasty. It also can help with Stone Edge's users with Will-o-Wisp, and if Steelix is there too, Articuno+Steelix+Torkoal could be really annoying.
Actually i'd say the majority of common special attackers in UU are capable of taking out Articuno while Articuno can't actually do anything back with it's below average offensive capabilities. Articuno basically has to pack roar to even think of blocking a sweep, without it a fair amount of special attackers can actually stat up against Articuno.
If we assume Stealth Rock is up then Articuno isn't really walling much. 85 Base speed may seem impressive for a wall, but what time is Articuno getting to even invest in it. Almost every special attacker is going to be running speed EVs and are therefore going to outspeed Articuno and most likely going to be able to hit it a second time after it switches in and if Stealth Rock is up then they are almost surely going to beat it.
Even if I agree with you in saying spinning isn't tough and that the ghosts can be worn down you still have to take into consideration that you'd need to spin everytime before you send out Articuno to wall something, and something like that is not always going to be possible and probaly pretty unlikely anyway.
Articuno isn't coming in on most physical attackers and even if it had to it's still going to be taking a hefty set of damage from any attack they use. Sure Stone Edge seems optimal to take advantage of Articuno's 4x Rock weakness, but it sure isn't a necessity to take it out.
That pokemon combination doesn't really like Stealth Rock and the sheer fact that the spinner is also weak to Stealth Rock and has no reliable way of recovery means that it is probaly not going to be viable as a walling combination.
I am definitely questioning whether or not Hitmontop ought to be UU.
There is only one decent switch-in, that being Claydol. Everything else is OHKOed or 2HKOed by the CB set. The Technician set is even more effective in UU, most of the time I had to beat it by sacrificing something to two hits, then sending out offensive Pokemon x that isn't OHKOed by Mach Punch, while they switched out and brought it back in later. Bulk Up is a very effective sweeper, with Technician boosting Mach Punch, Revenge, and Triple Kick.
I haven't looked through this discussion, but if this hasn't been discussed it should be.
There is only one decent switch-in, that being Claydol. Everything else is OHKOed or 2HKOed by the CB set. The Technician set is even more effective in UU, most of the time I had to beat it by sacrificing something to two hits, then sending out offensive Pokemon x that isn't OHKOed by Mach Punch, while they switched out and brought it back in later. Bulk Up is a very effective sweeper, with Technician boosting Mach Punch, Revenge, and Triple Kick.
I haven't looked through this discussion, but if this hasn't been discussed it should be.
Nah Hitmontop is definitely UU. Like Hypno/Altaria/Blastoise etc it is a very effective and powerful UU but nothing more.
At least it has one decent counter. A good number of UU Pokemon don't have any comfortable counters. It is just how UU is; focus on your strategy and adapt to threats situationally. It is impossible to cover everything 100%.
Only if you predict the right switch, just like any other Choice user. Besides Hitmontop's attack is only base 95, there are far more threatening Choice users in UU (Hitmonlee, Manectric, Glaceon etc) and not many people complain about them these days.
EDIT: On the subject of Articuno, I personally wouldn't mind giving it a test run in UU. I think people are overhyping its effectiveness somewhat. It plays very much like Lugia except with STAB Ice Beam, much worse typing and inferior stats in general. Another major problem it has is finding the room for the moves it requires to fulfill its duties effectively. It needs Reflect in order to effectively counter physical Pokemon, but without Toxic it doesn't do anything to the vast number of Ice resists in UU, and without Heal Bell it is crippled badly by Toxic itself (an increasingly common move in UU).
Rapid Spinning is also not as easy as people are making it out to be due to the fast paced nature in UU. You may pull it off once but Stealth Rock is so ridiculously easy to set up that you'll more than likely have to do it again, giving your opponent many free turns that you more than likely cannot afford.
At least it has one decent counter. A good number of UU Pokemon don't have any comfortable counters. It is just how UU is; focus on your strategy and adapt to threats situationally. It is impossible to cover everything 100%.
Only if you predict the right switch, just like any other Choice user. Besides Hitmontop's attack is only base 95, there are far more threatening Choice users in UU (Hitmonlee, Manectric, Glaceon etc) and not many people complain about them these days.
EDIT: On the subject of Articuno, I personally wouldn't mind giving it a test run in UU. I think people are overhyping its effectiveness somewhat. It plays very much like Lugia except with STAB Ice Beam, much worse typing and inferior stats in general. Another major problem it has is finding the room for the moves it requires to fulfill its duties effectively. It needs Reflect in order to effectively counter physical Pokemon, but without Toxic it doesn't do anything to the vast number of Ice resists in UU, and without Heal Bell it is crippled badly by Toxic itself (an increasingly common move in UU).
Rapid Spinning is also not as easy as people are making it out to be due to the fast paced nature in UU. You may pull it off once but Stealth Rock is so ridiculously easy to set up that you'll more than likely have to do it again, giving your opponent many free turns that you more than likely cannot afford.
I'd like to (again) throw up a ball for Entei. I mean, he's only 7 spots in the Used Ranking above RATTATA, for crying out loud. I mean sure, he's relatively bulky and powerful for UU measures, but how would it actually scare a metagame in which pokes chilling in between spots 60 and 100 (Note below)
Froslass (5130826 points)
Steelix (4178330 points)
Cradily (3494061 points)
Hitmontop (3429150 points)
Shuckle (3332453 points)
Drapion (3270993 points)
Clefable (3035332 points)
Walrein (2925917 points)
Claydol (2723339 points)
Absol (2667534 points)
Blastoise (2661379 points)
Hariyama (2592486 points)
Cloyster (2583331 points)
Jumpluff (2409582 points)
Lapras (2331734 points)
Toxicroak (2270856 points)
Would measure up to:
Entei (129414 points) (RANKED 223 BELOW LEDIAN!)
I say Entei needs testing here. Seriously, a poke thats deemed less useful as Ledian has issues. We already have strong UU Fire types, we could use a more physical one to compete with Ninetales.
Froslass (5130826 points)
Steelix (4178330 points)
Cradily (3494061 points)
Hitmontop (3429150 points)
Shuckle (3332453 points)
Drapion (3270993 points)
Clefable (3035332 points)
Walrein (2925917 points)
Claydol (2723339 points)
Absol (2667534 points)
Blastoise (2661379 points)
Hariyama (2592486 points)
Cloyster (2583331 points)
Jumpluff (2409582 points)
Lapras (2331734 points)
Toxicroak (2270856 points)
Would measure up to:
Entei (129414 points) (RANKED 223 BELOW LEDIAN!)
I say Entei needs testing here. Seriously, a poke thats deemed less useful as Ledian has issues. We already have strong UU Fire types, we could use a more physical one to compete with Ninetales.
Aerial Ace. Earthquake. Not fun to switch in on. Not to mention aerodactyle totally changes the EV"s things need to outspeed. Too fast for UU, you would have to adjust everythings EV's.
