Sounds fun, I can finally use Zangoose again. =3
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A new UU ladder
- Thread starter obi
- Start date
The tiers are not updated every month, though, so Hippowdon isn't yet BL / UU.
And how on Earth is Hippopotas too powerful? To be honest, I can't imagine anyone worth worrying about putting it on their team.
Hippopotas has the physical bulk of Bonsly. Seriously, guys, it can never come in. You will basically be playing the whole game with 5 Pokemon.
As for Abomasnow, it seems like a good balance to how powerful Rain Dance teams are.
Auto weather is not that bad. Rain Dance teams will be getting things like Empoleon, Floatzel, Feraligatr, Azumarill, Kingdra, and Raikou to wreak absolute havoc once the rain is up. Sunny Day teams similarly get Tangrowth, Eggy, Houndoom, Moltres and a ton of other grass and fire types. Meanwhile, a hail team relies a lot on blizzards (which water and fire types resist) and requires giving your team a fairly large SR weakness. Hippopotas is nothing to worry about. Sandstream teams will be required to essentially play with 5 pokemon, which is less than ideal for stallish teams, but a 50% sdef boost for rock types and end-of-turn damage are both rather nice.
I wonder if the metagame might turn into a battle for control of the weather. The four weather types seem like they'd be fairly well-balanced in this metagame.
I wonder if the metagame might turn into a battle for control of the weather. The four weather types seem like they'd be fairly well-balanced in this metagame.
I am quite firmly against this plan. As far as my UU experience has shown me, it is an enviroment where just about ANY pokemon can be used to great effect.
5/6 of my current UU team is listed on the in progress NU list as NU, and the last one was going to be replaced anyway, this team has approximatly an 80% winrate. i've seen luvdisks do fantastic jobs on well thought out teams. i've yet to see one, but i'm pretty certain that even farfetched can find some niche to show it's colours.
By all means, i think the idea of testing through BL pokemon, some (zangoose i believe is a good example) could easily work competantly in a UU enviroment. (many can work competantly in a OU enviroment) however, testing such as this should be worked in a different area than to UU.
Our current teir system has been based around certain cutoff points, people decided X was a good point to place the UU/BL boundry. many pokemon are teetering on the edge, a good few might be in the wrong place. but by adding all of the BL pokemon we are not going to work out which pokemon are on which side of the cutoff point, we're just going to end up moving the cutoff point itself. I'm not even claiming that this will be an insuperior line, but it will completly destroy the UU metagame as we have it today
i'm expecting quite a big change in cutoff point in this move, people will play this new UU and find it just as rewarding and fun as anyother one. obvious exeptions such as alakazam will go straight back to BL. but i think the bulk of pokemon will stay where they are.
but now, picture a pokemon like luvdisk in an enviroment where pokemon like rakou is allowed free reign, obviously not a pretty thought. i have trust in the NU teir to work it's magic in some way or another, but why not just keep our UU where it is, a place where i think is already a perfect cutoff point. true, we need to make a few good decisions regarding which pokemon are on which side of the line, but sociologicly i think that the current UU cutoff point will be murdered by this "test".
-sorry if this text is overly confusing, i'm hardly perfect at making good arguments, they usualy end up a bit unreadable, and i doubt i ended up with anything like my inital points.. keep in mind that i am hardly the most knowledgeable on any of these matters so don't expect any of these to be calculated facts..
5/6 of my current UU team is listed on the in progress NU list as NU, and the last one was going to be replaced anyway, this team has approximatly an 80% winrate. i've seen luvdisks do fantastic jobs on well thought out teams. i've yet to see one, but i'm pretty certain that even farfetched can find some niche to show it's colours.
By all means, i think the idea of testing through BL pokemon, some (zangoose i believe is a good example) could easily work competantly in a UU enviroment. (many can work competantly in a OU enviroment) however, testing such as this should be worked in a different area than to UU.
Our current teir system has been based around certain cutoff points, people decided X was a good point to place the UU/BL boundry. many pokemon are teetering on the edge, a good few might be in the wrong place. but by adding all of the BL pokemon we are not going to work out which pokemon are on which side of the cutoff point, we're just going to end up moving the cutoff point itself. I'm not even claiming that this will be an insuperior line, but it will completly destroy the UU metagame as we have it today
i'm expecting quite a big change in cutoff point in this move, people will play this new UU and find it just as rewarding and fun as anyother one. obvious exeptions such as alakazam will go straight back to BL. but i think the bulk of pokemon will stay where they are.
but now, picture a pokemon like luvdisk in an enviroment where pokemon like rakou is allowed free reign, obviously not a pretty thought. i have trust in the NU teir to work it's magic in some way or another, but why not just keep our UU where it is, a place where i think is already a perfect cutoff point. true, we need to make a few good decisions regarding which pokemon are on which side of the line, but sociologicly i think that the current UU cutoff point will be murdered by this "test".
-sorry if this text is overly confusing, i'm hardly perfect at making good arguments, they usualy end up a bit unreadable, and i doubt i ended up with anything like my inital points.. keep in mind that i am hardly the most knowledgeable on any of these matters so don't expect any of these to be calculated facts..
tl dr of your post lol
you like uu where it is, and we're going to keep both ladders while we test for the new uu, one that will have a more clearyl defined metagame and "cutoff point" as you call it. no one is going to yank away the current uu metagame, but if you love nu so much i think it's pretty clear that we need a better defined uu to build an nu metagame.
Rain Dance will still be superior, simply because of the pokemon that use it. Ice types will still fear Kabutops' Stone Edge and Omastar's Ancientpower, and ironically, these pokemon also benefit from Sandstorm.
Seems like this entire process will be extremely tedious, and I doubt it will actually achieve any results, because unleashing so many pokemon at once into one tier will require more time to get used to. I don't mind it because personally I started caring less and less about UU lately with the recent changes and uncertainties, although it would be nice if we could keep the current ladder as well.
Seems like this entire process will be extremely tedious, and I doubt it will actually achieve any results, because unleashing so many pokemon at once into one tier will require more time to get used to. I don't mind it because personally I started caring less and less about UU lately with the recent changes and uncertainties, although it would be nice if we could keep the current ladder as well.
With Hippopotas and Snover, it's not that they are too powerful. They are weak, and essentially you are sacrificing a slot on your team solely to get auto-weather, but some say it'll make UU 'OU-lite'.
I don't really know what will happen though. If their abilities do actually make them too centralizing, or it turns out that they actually do have an impact on a metagame, and nearly the whole of the community dislikes their impact, we'll only find out when we experiment.
I can't see them being used when we'll have things like Kingdra running around, but we'll never until we try.
I strongly disagree with this statement, and have quite a bit of UU experience to back it up. There are people complaining that UU is more centralized than OU right now, and while I don't think it's true, they do have a point. The likes of Luvdisc and Farfetch'd simply can't compete effectively in the UU metagame. Contrary to your beliefs, there is no niche for Farfetch'd in UU. Just about every single normal/flying Pokemon can do everything Farfetch'd can, bar crit haxing with a Stick, except better.
Pertaining to the new ladder, I think it will be a good idea. Empirical data is a much better basis of determining a Pokemon's tier than theorymon and forum flaming. As for the usage issues regarding the new ladder, I don't think it will be to much of a problem. I think many UU players, myself included, will partake in this experiment, and for every UU player who will boycott this ladder, there probably will be someone new who wants to try this metagame to take their place. I myself am looking forward to this, but just wondering, when will this ladder be instated?
The thing im worried about is that auto-weather might inbalance certain pokemon like Glaceon or Cradily when they otherwise wouldnt be too powerful. Choice Specs ice beam is already hard enough to handle, imagine specs Blizzard that never misses?
snover is not as weak as you think and anyway abomasnow....
not so, try facing a walrien in hailstorm ;)
and rain dance would become more rediculous, floatzal, ludicolo kingdra? but remember kingdra and ludicolo can be used to KILL kabutops
as for this ladder, those of us who want to play UU seem to be forced to play BL/UU though, thats the only problem with it, if it is seperate then those that want to play UU still can, those of us who want to play BL/UU can, hell i want to, but i want to play plain UU as well.
we need BL still, its all well and good basing a tier on useage but i dont want to have to update a team every 3 months because they have become OU? there needs to be something in place to prevent that.
not so, try facing a walrien in hailstorm ;)
and rain dance would become more rediculous, floatzal, ludicolo kingdra? but remember kingdra and ludicolo can be used to KILL kabutops
as for this ladder, those of us who want to play UU seem to be forced to play BL/UU though, thats the only problem with it, if it is seperate then those that want to play UU still can, those of us who want to play BL/UU can, hell i want to, but i want to play plain UU as well.
we need BL still, its all well and good basing a tier on useage but i dont want to have to update a team every 3 months because they have become OU? there needs to be something in place to prevent that.
Just clarifying for those who are using terminology haphazardly:
OU + BL = OU
Ubers + OU = Ubers
BL + UU = BL
There's no such thing as BL/UU. A metagame with BL pokemon and UU pokemon would be a BL metagame. What Obi is proposing is to make all the current BL pokemon UU. In other words, for a short period there would be no BL pokemon.
After a certain degree of time we would ban the pokes that are too powerful, which would make a new BL.
OU + BL = OU
Ubers + OU = Ubers
BL + UU = BL
There's no such thing as BL/UU. A metagame with BL pokemon and UU pokemon would be a BL metagame. What Obi is proposing is to make all the current BL pokemon UU. In other words, for a short period there would be no BL pokemon.
After a certain degree of time we would ban the pokes that are too powerful, which would make a new BL.
Did you two even read this thread or the first post? It states it clearly BL, NFEs, and UU will be allowed and then they will be banned after testing >:O
^Rather than "allowed," all current BL and NFE pokemon with be UU on the new ladder under Obi's proposal. That's a better way to put it.
I think this is the proper way to evaluate whats too strong for UU
I agree, most notably Rhyperior. Can you tell me with a straight face that Rhyperior is balanced for UU? It has higher attack than anything else in UU, in fact it's only 25 away from Rampardos. And then you add in its other benefits like excellent ability, good defense and STAB on Earthquake...
If I recall correctly, we were saying similar things about Rhyperior in OU a ways back . . . lol if Rhyperior and Electivire end up falling to the bottom of UU as well.
dude no stop ok thats theorymon
http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/rhyperior
http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/armaldo
http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/absol
Compare them... it's not theorymon, it's pretty much obvious fact. It's not dubious at all really, Rhyperior is too strong for UU. If it does get moved down then I can guarantee you it'll be the Garchomp of UU. Rhyperior is the exception which defines the rule.
yes Salem, many current BL pokemon will outclass many current UU pokemon if allowed in the same metagame. I don't see how that is news.
hey id just like to remind everyone that predictions are not the point of the thread. it's pretty obvious that a lot of pokemon will get banned early in the interest of varying the metagame environment, but the whole point is the clean start, not the end result..
basically no one cares about your thoughts on individual pokemon, even (and especially) the obvious ones
basically no one cares about your thoughts on individual pokemon, even (and especially) the obvious ones