More Thoughts on Stealth Rock

[Peachfuzz]

Manaphy will undoubtly create a dominate rain-based metagame, which I consider very harmful to the metagame. I don't believe enough has changed to make Garchomp OU; very few things have popped up to counter Yache Garchomp, the only viable new counter I know of is Jump's Trick Cresselia. OHKO moves will harm the metagame by making it much more luck based. Ho-oh, if you believe it should be tested, is far from OU without SR, so I rather test SR before Ho-oh, as well as all the above. If we don't have anything better to test than SR, let's test SR.

Don't speak so quickly, as you don't know how the metagame will change, do you? What if no one uses Manaphy because it can't get past Blissey, it's revenge killed by Shaymin-S and Swift Swimmers? What if no one uses the OHKO moves because they are unreliable?

To the people saying that the metagame has digressed to the point that Stealth Rock forces everyone to use rock resistant pokes, only about 10 pokemon in OU are resistant. On the flipside, 8 OU pokes are weak to it, half of which are in the top ten.

 

[Jumpman16]

ok but we're apparently against just going in and changing game mechanics, so I want to know where the line between that and banning things we are merely "better off without" is, and why.

how would banning sr be changing game mechanics

you do know that the dt and ohko bans that are in place are a precedent for us having banned actual moves in the interests of a better competitive metagame, right

and that it is no coincidence whatsoever that we are actually prepared to test dt and ohkos in platinum to see if we've made the right choice rather than just assuming they are still broken, right

changing the game mechanics would be to do something like halve the damage output of SR, a suggestion that no one has really taken seriously because it would actually be changing the mechanics of the game. if you really want to know where 'the line' is (and, i reiterate, we are not banning anything yet, it's amazing how many times i have to repeat that this would just be a test), go read our philosophy. do you really think that this would be the start of some slippery slope where anyone 'in charge' would take suggestions that we even consider testing blissey in isolation and focus sash in isolation and sand attack in isolation seriously? no, and that is because the current suspect list has been 'agreed upon' by like dozens of policy review members, not just suggested by one person

 

[lilyhollow]

You don't want to test Stealth Rock EVER according to your vote, yet you would approve a Stealth Rock test after everything else is out of the way? Please don't contradict yourself. Which is it?

it's basically just a "strategic vote." supporting a Stealth Rock test right now risks giving it priority over worthier tests. My official position is "I might support holding a Stealth Rock test after absolutely everything that we have yet to test in OU that is currently banned/Uber has been tested." I say "might" because who knows what the metagame might look like then and how it could be affected by Stealth Rock.

how would banning sr be changing game mechanics

I never said that it would be but ok.

you do know that the dt and ohko bans that are in place are a precedent for us having banned actual moves in the interests of a better competitive metagame, right

and that it is no coincidence whatsoever that we are actually prepared to test dt and ohkos in platinum to see if we've made the right choice rather than just assuming they are still broken, right

yeah so the answer to your first question would be a "no" then. in banning Evasion and OHKO moves we acknowledged from the beginning that "something is wrong with the game that we are currently playing," "Double Team and OHKOs are broken moves, or otherwise prevent us from reasonably deciding who is the better player of this game." Whether or not that is what "we" literally decided as our reasoning (who knows, people back then might have thought "Double Team is just toooo annoying let's ban it!") is in my mind irrelevant, for the very fact that said reasoning did exist so we could justify a "test" (I'm assuming it was in reality just an outright ban)

So no, based on what you've said so far, there is no precedent for us banning moves purely in the interests of a better competitive metagame. Just for moves that we can firmly establish are either broken, or otherwise pose as a clear obstacle between relative skill and relative ability to win (which I would call different from "broken" most of the time but either way DT and OHKOs at least at one point did fit this description)

changing the game mechanics would be to do something like halve the damage output of SR, a suggestion that no one has really taken seriously because it would actually be changing the mechanics of the game. if you really want to know where 'the line' is (and, i reiterate, we are not banning anything yet, it's amazing how many times i have to repeat that this would just be a test), go read our philosophy.

which part are you talking about? I'm hoping it isn't the one that apparently contradicts like the entire reason behind a Stealth Rock test.

"Smogon attempts to avoid bans as much as possible - only when it becomes very apparent that a Pokemon is far too powerful to be in line with a balanced metagame is it banished permanently from the standard arena."

If you're wondering, yes, this is exactly one of the reasons I asked the initial question of "where the line is." If we're now suddenly removing that little bit of the philosophy and replacing it with "we'll test anything we might be better off without by relative PR consensus" then I want to know why we're supposedly willing to go that far, and not directly into the realm of directly altering game mechanics.

do you really think that this would be the start of some slippery slope where anyone 'in charge' would take suggestions that we even consider testing blissey in isolation and focus sash in isolation and sand attack in isolation seriously? no, and that is because the current suspect list has been 'agreed upon' by like dozens of policy review members, not just suggested by one person

If our goal has become to determine the "best possible OU metagame," then yes, I think a slippery slope is not out of the question at all. Trick has already had its smattering of complaints, after how many weeks of Platinum play? At the very absolute least we are promoting unhealthy "CalmCune is 00ber" type behavior and discussion amongst less experienced/informed players who now think that anything they hate playing against deserves to be tested. In a community where a number of people over a range of skill levels can be convinced that Magmortar is an amazing mixed sweeper, I'm definitely concerned with what could happen over the course of the year, or especially a generation if it comes to that. No I'm not worried about things like Double-Edge, but I fail to see how this isn't at least a somewhat legitimate concern.

Edit: Also, the decision to test Stealth Rock itself could potentially influence votes on other Suspects. This might have more to do with the voting system being questionable at best than anything though.

 

[CardsOfTheHeart]

it's basically just a "strategic vote." supporting a Stealth Rock test right now risks giving it priority over worthier tests. My official position is "I might support holding a Stealth Rock test after absolutely everything that we have yet to test in OU that is currently banned/Uber has been tested." I say "might" because who knows what the metagame might look like then and how it could be affected by Stealth Rock.

In other words, you intentionally contradicted yourself. Your intention was to vote not to test Stealth Rock right now, but your vote actually says that you NEVER want to test Stealth Rock. Wait a minute while I try to make sense of it...

Damn it, I can't.

"Smogon attempts to avoid bans as much as possible - only when it becomes very apparent that a Pokemon is far too powerful to be in line with a balanced metagame is it banished permanently from the standard arena."

By the way, this was taken out of context. Here is the entire quote:

Another misplaced argument is the opposite—the banishment of lesser legendaries. This is not disputed in the case of monsters like Mewtwo, but for strong yet available choices like Azelf, or even lesser Pokémon like Entei, which aren't even considered standard! The important thought to keep in mind is that all Pokémon are unique, and there is actually a world of difference between, say, Jirachi and Entei—while the former is high-tier and enjoys consistent use, the latter is a forgotten rarity due to a poor stat distribution and movepool. Smogon attempts to avoid bans as much as possible—only when it becomes very apparent that a Pokémon is far too powerful to be in line with a balanced metagame is it banished permanently from the standard arena. Many legendary Pokémon are very balanced within the realm of standards and open up new options for players, who value any option to avoid staleness.

It's clear that the aforementioned statement was referring to banning Pokemon to Ubers.

I would hope that the statement wouldn't apply to banning moves and items because if that was the case, I would adamantly disagree. I want to allow as many Pokemon as reasonably possible and do whatever it takes to improve the environment that those Pokemon play in (i.e. moves and items; abilities would be hard to ban).

 

[lilyhollow]

In other words, you intentionally contradicted yourself. Your intention was to vote not to test Stealth Rock right now, but your vote actually says that you NEVER want to test Stealth Rock. Wait a minute while I try to make sense of it...

Damn it, I can't

Well stop being so hung up on my vote then I guess. The bottom line is, I would be neutral (aka "why not") towards a SR test as long as everything we've unjustifiably banned were guaranteed to be tested first. So in a perfect world I'd have voted Yes, while realistically I can't currently support it.

It's clear that the aforementioned statement was referring to banning Pokemon to Ubers.

It otherwise makes no direct mention of banning moves or items so I'm assuming it "intended" to refer to them as well. There's really no reason to differentiate between them in the first place, is there?

 

[CardsOfTheHeart]

Actually, I differentiate between them. I want as many Pokemon to play in the game as reasonably possible, but I'll ban whatever items and moves it takes for them to play in the most desirable competitive environment.

 

[Game Freak201]

Unfortunately, I can't really add much to this debate other than what has already been repeated. IMO, we shouldn't ban something if it's already a balanced metagame. Both metagames with and without the rocks will be balanced; thus, making us choose between which metagame we like more. Last time I checked, that wasn't the point of competitive pokemon battling (which is to have a balanced metagame with as little additional rules as possible).

 

[lilyhollow]

Actually, I differentiate between them. I want as many Pokemon to play in the game as reasonably possible, but I'll ban whatever items and moves it takes for them to play in the most desirable competitive environment.

OK, but why?

 

[1234gjy]

It's not exactly banning, it's like creating a new metagame, so then we have SR metagame and a SR-less metagame. Then those pokemons with SR weak will perform more in the SR-less metagame. I think it'll be really different in the SR-less metagame. It's like deoxys-e and deoxys-f, they both are mixed attackers, but played really differently.

 

[CardsOfTheHeart]

Why? I want a Pokemon game with as many usable Pokemon as possible, that's why.

I want a game that allows for the most possibilities in selecting Pokemon for teambuilding and tries to emphasize the skill of the battlers. I realize that it is difficult to accomplish in a game with so many random variables (if jrrrrrrr is the unluckiest player in Pokemon, then I'm at least a close second), but that doesn't stop me from desiring such a thing.

 

[lilyhollow]

but what actually makes the pokemon more important than the moves? Maybe Stealth Rock "ruins" some pokemon but in the grand scheme of things we're left with a deeper game with more options purely because of what Stealth Rock brings to the table.

 

[mien]

It's not exactly banning, it's like creating a new metagame, so then we have SR metagame and a SR-less metagame.

Then what
You can also replace SR with Lati@s what's the fucking difference.
Some pokemon benefit from their presence others don't same goes for SR.

Besides i have the feeling some people think once SR is banned the acopalypse will start because the whole metagame is built around these floating rocks. Like OH NO SALAMENCE AND GYARADOS WILL KILL EVERYTHING. Damn you will kill them with Ice or Electric moves even without SR.

Don't cry like babies if changes happen instead of criticising them over and over again. Try to get used to them instead

The same fucking thing happens to everything around here. All 'new' things become suspect for no reason ALL OF THEM Wobbuffet, Deoxys-E and now Skymin.

Yea yea and then you guys come with reasons like overcentralising, Fundementals of pokemon,Centralising the lead game,freezing. Yes i've really seen the most ridiculous arguments here on smogon.
In my country they say this i don't know if it is known in America

'If you want to hurt your dog you'll ALWAYS find a stick'

Same goes for all those other pokemon who got banned so far, they didn't got banned because they were broken, they were banned because people can't stand their precious metagame being changed

Besides it makes me wonder why you guys waste your time testing things anyway if you ban it every time, i'm willing to bet 10000 dollars that Lati@s WILL be banned when the vote comes after the test. No matter what their usage is people will still invent reasons to ban them

Ridiculous, time passes get used to change instead of banning it. In real llife you'll also have to get used to new things.
But no you guys are all here closed in your own little world, you forget the real world problems as long as you have control of this place right?

 

[CardsOfTheHeart]

but what actually makes the pokemon more important than the moves?

To me, it's all about the Pokemon. It's the Pokemon that make the attacks, abilities, and items effective.

For example:

• Draco Meteor wouldn't do much for Shuckle, but in Salamence's hands it's a potent threat.
• Yache Berry is useless on Magikarp, but on Garchomp it can make Chomp difficult to take down.
• Wonder Guard wouldn't help Jynx a whole lot (because of her weaknesses), but there's a reason why it's not on a Pokemon like Spiritomb.

For me, it's the Pokemon that make the game, not everything else.

 

[Mario With Lasers]

The same fucking thing happens to everything around here. All 'new' things become suspect for no reason ALL OF THEM Wobbuffet, Deoxys-E and now Skymin.

It's funny that you mentioned Skymin first and then

Besides it makes me wonder why you guys waste your time testing things anyway if you ban it every time, i'm willing to bet 10000 dollars that Lati@s WILL be banned when the vote comes after the test. No matter what their usage is people will still invent reasons to ban them

You come with Latibros out of nowhere, and just forgot Skymin, which has a big chance of not being banned. Also, Deoxys-S "passed" that bold voting, it only became a suspect later with the Dual Screen set. Wobbuffet was a closer call before the Tickle set was revealed to the masses, and top players like imperfectluck actually used them and proved how fucking easy they're to use and get a win to you. They didn't start a babcrying like you, they actually *gasp* proved their views about these pokémon.

 

[Il Mitico™]

I haven't read 9 pages of this topic, I will simply express my opinion and give my vote.

Stealth Rock is a greatest move of DPPt Metagame, but call it "gamebreaking" is exaggerated, especially in the actual Metagame. Come on, really think that if Stealth Rock will be banned Pokémon like Moltres will be widely used? Heatran has a lot more resistance, statistics highter except Atk and Spd, and a wider movepool. Ok, Moltres counter better Scizor, but it may do so also with Stealth Rock... it has Roost and Leftovers, survives to every moves of Scizor (with the just EV spread), and it can do OHKO with a Fire STABbed move. We talk a lot about Ho-oh Uber, we decided to not make it usable in the Standard Metagame, then why Moltres isn't considerate playable? Articuno is another Pokémon in discussion, because it has a great defensive statistics, especially SpDef, but in a Metagame full of Heatran, Scizor, Zapdos, Lucario, Tyranitar, Metagross, ecc... that using moves under wich Articuno is weakned, as can resist? But don't just think of what would get the benefits without Stealth Rock... Ninjask works well, it's the simplest Baton Passer of the Metagame, with Protect + Substitute/Focus Sash can pass at least two boost of Speed and two boost of Attack (Swords Dance)... think without Stealth Rock as increase it versatility! Gyarados is a Pokémon that has only earned in DPPt, take away it's unique disadvantage... not to mention Salamence! DDOutrageMence, MixMence, SpecsMence... realize that the weakness to Stealth Rock is the only thing that doesn't make DDOutrageMence like Garchomp, because 25% of HP lost renders useless Yache Berry and risky Life Orb. There are also other things, as Zapdos and Togekiss, that would become even stronger.

I vote "No", if you must ban Stealth Rock, I'll like a "Stealth Rock clause" instead of a total ban.

 

[Peachfuzz]

Same goes for all those other pokemon who got banned so far, they didn't got banned because they were broken, they were banned because people can't stand their precious metagame being changed

What about Garchomp? Were people going to vote for it OU because they didn't want their precious metagame to change? It was a significantly different metagame without Chomp as shown by the Suspect Testing ladder results. People voted Chomp to Ubers because it was a healthier metagame without it.

 

[CardsOfTheHeart]

Il Mitico's post reminded me to bring this up. (Sorry, Il Mitico.)

The question at hand is this:

Would you ever be willing to TEST Stealth Rock at any time in the forseeable future?

I'm seeing too many people against a test because they are against a ban. Can't the ban talk wait until AFTER the test?

 

[Automatic]

I think it would be quite interesting to null SR on the Suspect Server for a month or so. I think the most interesting thing would be the new pokemon one would see, and the ones who pretty much just SR go unseen. I would think it would take more than a month of testing an SR-less metagame for people to be able to make a decision.

It seems like it's more of a matter of "what suspect things are more important at the moment?" I don't claim that SR is less important, but I think the most important suspect that hasn't been done is Manaphy..which isn't really affected by SR too much.

 

[petrie911]

I haven't read 9 pages of this topic, I will simply express my opinion and give my vote.

Stealth Rock is a greatest move of DPPt Metagame, but call it "gamebreaking" is exaggerated, especially in the actual Metagame. Come on, really think that if Stealth Rock will be banned Pokémon like Moltres will be widely used? Heatran has a lot more resistance, statistics highter except Atk and Spd, and a wider movepool. Ok, Moltres counter better Scizor, but it may do so also with Stealth Rock... it has Roost and Leftovers, survives to every moves of Scizor (with the just EV spread), and it can do OHKO with a Fire STABbed move.

a 50% HP moltres will not be surviving a +2 LO Quick Attack. It cannot come in safely on Scizor when Stealth Rock is in play.

But don't just think of what would get the benefits without Stealth Rock... Ninjask works well, it's the simplest Baton Passer of the Metagame, with Protect + Substitute/Focus Sash can pass at least two boost of Speed and two boost of Attack (Swords Dance)... think without Stealth Rock as increase it versatility!

Yes, how dare we make Ninjask actually usable. It's still beatable by phazing, and that Focus Sash only works once. Oh, and how about a priority user? All of those speed boosts do nothing to stop Scizor's Bullet Punch from 2HKOing it before it can get the pass off. Or Haze it. Or Perish Song it. Or have Sandstorm or Hail in effect to null the sash.

Gyarados is a Pokémon that has only earned in DPPt, take away it's unique disadvantage... not to mention Salamence! DDOutrageMence, MixMence, SpecsMence... realize that the weakness to Stealth Rock is the only thing that doesn't make DDOutrageMence like Garchomp, because 25% of HP lost renders useless Yache Berry and risky Life Orb. There are also other things, as Zapdos and Togekiss, that would become even stronger.

Except Dragon Dance gives only a +1 boost, and Salamence's defenses aren't as good as chomp's. Mence does not have EQ STAB. Mence is not immune to Thunder Wave. And mence cannot make your attacks miss 20% of the time. Yeah, DDMence is nothing compared to Yachechomp.

 

[Kay [Old]]

Would you ever be willing to TEST Stealth Rock at any time in the forseeable future?

At best, I guess we could have a SR test sometime in the future, though as far as I'm concerned, that would be absolutely dead last, behind OHKOs, Evasion, Manaphy, Mew, Skymin, Ho-oh, etc. Heck, I would put re-testing Garchomp over SR - I guess we could do it after all that.
However, in reality, I don't think it merits a test, as since you cannot prove that SR is breaking the metagame as it is right now, there is no reason to test it. Heck, and Cards, in response to your "you're against change" stuff - heck, why not test Heatran? or Salamence? How do you know that banning them won't create a "better metagame" - whatever the heck that means.

@Petrie: to all your points: so what? SR makes Moltres and Ninjask less usable does not entail it being necessarily broken.

 

[CardsOfTheHeart]

Heck, and Cards, in response to your "you're against change" stuff - heck, why not test Heatran? or Salamence? How do you know that banning them won't create a "better metagame" - whatever the heck that means.

More desirable > better; I should have made that more evident. "Better" isn't a good enough descriptor.

Testing Heatran or Salamence? If there is absolutely nothing better to do, then why not? [just read on] It wouldn't be a waste of time because we wouldn't be doing anything with that time, anyway. In my opinion, the necessity of "solid reasoning" doesn't apply when no such reasoning exists for ANYTHING. If anything else, it will provide more empirical data to show when something is NOT Uber. We all know they're not Uber, but the research may have use still.

In reality, would we ever reach the point where we could afford such a luxury? HELL NO. Never gonna happen.



On a side note, it seems that the biggest reason this issue has escalated as far as it has is the fact that Stealth Rock discussion in PR was taking place as early as June. If there wasn't any underlying reason for even looking at a Stealth Rock ban, then this thread (or the PR one, for that matter) probably wouldn't exist. I certainly wouldn't have desired to see the results of a Stealth Rock test, that's for sure.

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

Peering into the SR PR thread there was a post that really caught my eye.

When did we ever care about "polls" in Stark Mountain where people who have no idea what they are doing can vote on it? Democracy is only considered valid when the users are well educated.

And if this is your "reason" it should be tested I find it absolutely laughable that you think that this is even remotely convincing.

Uneducated? If we were all uneducated this would have been a discussion without any sort of direction or merit and this thread would've been locked awhile ago.

Smogon is a community driven endeavor and ignoring the community would undermine Smogon's strength and people would go elsewhere for their competitive pokémon fixes.

Anyways, I made this thread to get a solid "yes" or "no" answer. It is very clear that the users do want to have this move tested. Would it be wise to ignore that?

 

[CardsOfTheHeart]

It's easy to dismiss a poll like this because with this voting style you're not required to give any reasoning for your vote to count. Ultimately, it's about the reasons for your vote, not the vote itself.



BTW, I realize that I was too adamant about my interest in "simple research." I was forming the basis for my opinion after forming my opinion. That's what usually ends up happening with my opinions. Try not to do that, everyone.

I apologize to everyone that tried to deal with me. I'll shut up now.

 

[Kay [Old]]

More desirable > better; I should have made that more evident. "Better" isn't a good enough descriptor.

Testing Heatran or Salamence? If there is absolutely nothing better to do, then why not? [just read on] It wouldn't be a waste of time because we wouldn't be doing anything with that time, anyway. In my opinion, the necessity of "solid reasoning" doesn't apply when no such reasoning exists for ANYTHING. If anything else, it will provide more empirical data to show when something is NOT Uber. We all know they're not Uber, but the research may have use still.

The point here that I and others have been making is that a "better metagame" is completely subjective. If we chose to ban Heatran, perhaps the metagame would improve to some people, but it would not improve for others. Given the whole subjective factor, we should only seek to ban things that can be objectively proven to harm the metagame, such as excessive centralization. While I'm not going to comment on Chomp, as I have never been convinced of its Uber status, Deoxys was banned because it harmed the lead part of the metagame, as it was by far the best lead that the metagame could provide, and thus there was no reason to use another lead. If we chose to ban Heatran for whatever reason, there would be those who would be pleased and those who would not. This would lead to a splintering of the metagame, which is obviously not a good thing.

Uneducated? If we were all uneducated this would have been a discussion without any sort of direction or merit and this thread would've been locked awhile ago.

Smogon is a community driven endeavor and ignoring the community would undermine Smogon's strength and people would go elsewhere for their competitive pokémon fixes.

If you're really going to argue that you or me have as much knowledge and skill at Pokemon as ipl or Obi, good luck. This isn't a democracy - only who have demonstrated a competent knowledge of the metagame really deserve to have their opinions listened to, and that's how it works in gaming communities. While Smogon may be a community endeavor, it has a hierarchy and those who have a higher place in the hierarchy necessarily have a greater voice than those who are lower.

 

[Setrack]

Why? I want a Pokemon game with as many usable Pokemon as possible, that's why.

I want a game that allows for the most possibilities in selecting Pokemon for teambuilding and tries to emphasize the skill of the battlers. I realize that it is difficult to accomplish in a game with so many random variables (if jrrrrrrr is the unluckiest player in Pokemon, then I'm at least a close second), but that doesn't stop me from desiring such a thing.

competitive environments aren't supposed to be all about the most number of usable pokemon as possible. otherwise we'd be banning arbitrary moves such as close combat or ice beam.